Truck Driving Jobs

polonus · Joined: 14 Jul 2006 Posts: 6

Is it necessarily to log pre trip inspection before truck starts moving :?: If I plan to fuel two hrs down the road, can I mark PTI with fueling, instead of showing PTI at the beginning of the day? It would save me 15 minutes, since my company allows us to combine fueling and pretrip in one 15 min mark.

Also if I start driving 1 am, run till 11 am, take 10 hrs break and start moving again 9pm, do I have to show on my logbook another 15 min for pretrip in the same 24-hrs period?

I am driving for 25 yrs, but somehow never was sure about those. And sometimes I need that 15 min to do my destination on time. :twisted: Thx.

Rev.Vassago · Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 12:40 pm Post subject: Re: Logging pre-trip inspection

polonus wrote: Is it necessarily to log pre trip inspection before truck starts moving :?: If I plan to fuel two hrs down the road, can I mark PTI with fueling, instead of showing PTI at the beginning of the day? It would save me 15 minutes, since my company allows us to combine fueling and pretrip in one 15 min mark.

Also if I start driving 1 am, run till 11 am, take 10 hrs break and start moving again 9pm, do I have to show on my logbook another 15 min for pretrip in the same 24-hrs period?

I am driving for 25 yrs, but somehow never was sure about those. And sometimes I need that 15 min to do my destination on time. :twisted: Thx.

Quote: ?396.13 Driver inspection.

Before driving a motor vehicle, the driver shall:

(a) Be satisfied that the motor vehicle is in safe operating condition;

(b) Review the last driver vehicle inspection report; and

(c) Sign the report, only if defects or deficiencies were noted by the driver who prepared the report, to acknowledge that the driver has reviewed it and that there is a certification that the required repairs have been performed. The signature requirement does not apply to listed defects on a towed unit which is no longer part of the vehicle combination.

[44 FR 76526, Dec. 27, 1979, as amended at 48 FR 55868, Dec. 16, 1983; 63 FR 33280, June 18, 1998].

Better find your 15 minutes elsewhere.

polonus · Joined: 14 Jul 2006 Posts: 6

Quote: Quote:

?396.13 Driver inspection.

Before driving a motor vehicle, the driver shall:

(a) Be satisfied that the motor vehicle is in safe operating condition;

Better find your 15 minutes elsewhere.

Thanks. That is what I am doing for last 25 years, but this quotation does not answer all my questions. I understand, that I have to inspect truck every time before I am moving again and I do it, but I do not always have to mark it in my logbook, right? For instance when I am moving after 1hr break for a lunch. My question is not about when to inspect my truck, but when law requires me to show 15 min in my logbook for this inspection.

Also law requires, that I am satisfied. Hmmm. Maybe I am that kinda person, who is always satisfied? Even if my wheels are falling off and break lines are full of holes? Should I be satisfied, or a DOT officer?
:twisted: :lol:

jiptwoo · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 135

You can just flag your pretrip, not using any minutes, then you can do your inspection anytime later. I always combined it with loading or unloading, 15 min. only.# 2 - No, one 15 min. inspection in 24 hrs. is all that's required. I have been doted many times and all I show is a 15 min inspection whether it's during loading, unloading, or during fuel, one line drawn down for 15 min , and that's it. Everything else I just flag, and have never had a ticket on my logs. Wasting 15 minutes for fueling, loading, unloading is something the personal companies require, but the only thing in the reg's is one 15 min. inspection in a 24 hr. period.

Rev.Vassago · Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 2:51 pm Post subject: Re: Logging pre-trip inspection

polonus wrote: Quote: Quote:

?396.13 Driver inspection.

Before driving a motor vehicle, the driver shall:

(a) Be satisfied that the motor vehicle is in safe operating condition;

Better find your 15 minutes elsewhere.

Thanks. That is what I am doing for last 25 years, but this quotation does not answer all my questions. I understand, that I have to inspect truck every time before I am moving again and I do it, but I do not always have to mark it in my logbook, right?

No - this section of FMCSA code pertains to Pre Trip inspections - not in-route inspections. It must be done prior to driving. There are no regulations for in-route inspections, except for certain operations (such as hazmat, oversize, etc.)

Quote: For instance when I am moving after 1hr break for a lunch. My question is not about when to inspect my truck, but when law requires me to show 15 min in my logbook for this inspection.

The law does not specify the amount of time that is required for any of the inspections, only that they must be done. Anything under 15 minutes can be flagged without dropping down to On Duty, Not Driving, but it must be there. I think you'd be hard pressed, however, to justify doing a pre-trip inspection in under 15 minutes. Personally, I show a minimum of 15 minutes for the pretrip, and 15 minutes for the post trip.

Quote: Also law requires, that I am satisfied. Hmmm. Maybe I am that kinda person, who is always satisfied? Even if my wheels are falling off and break lines are full of holes? Should I be satisfied, or a DOT officer?
:twisted: :lol:

Funny, but the law also says that you must understand the FMCSA requirements of a safe and compliant truck. Therefore, FMCSA rules the roost, and we are all just lackeys for them.

yoopr · Joined: 01 Dec 2004 Posts: 12865

[quote="polonus"]Is it necessarily to log pre trip inspection before truck starts moving :?: If I plan to fuel two hrs down the road, can I mark PTI with fueling, instead of showing PTI at the beginning of the day? It would save me 15 minutes, since my company allows us to combine fueling and pretrip in one 15 min mark.

Also if I start driving 1 am, run till 11 am, take 10 hrs break and start moving again 9pm, do I have to show on my logbook another 15 min for pretrip in the same 24-hrs period?

I am driving for 25 yrs, but somehow never was sure about those. And sometimes I need that 15 min to do my destination on time. :twisted: Thx.
[/quote]

Yes it's necessary-25 yrs of driving and you didn't know this?

polonus · Joined: 14 Jul 2006 Posts: 6

Quote: You can just flag your pretrip, not using any minutes, then you can do your inspection anytime later. I always combined it with loading or unloading, 15 min. only.# 2 - No, one 15 min. inspection in 24 hrs. is all that's required. I have been doted many times and all I show is a 15 min inspection whether it's during loading, unloading, or during fuel, one line drawn down for 15 min , and that's it.

Quote: Is it necessarily to log pre trip inspection before truck starts moving :?: [...]

Also if I start driving 1 am, run till 11 am, take 10 hrs break and start moving again 9pm, do I have to show on my logbook another 15 min for pretrip in the same 24-hrs period? [...]

I am driving for 25 yrs, but [...] :twisted: Thx.

Yes it's necessary-25 yrs of driving and you didn't know this?

That is exactly why I ask. Just to be safe, I always marked 15 min after each 8, or later 10 hrs break. It was different, when I drove 5 on 5 off, but now it is no option. However I recently heard what jiptwoo said, so I?m checking with smarter then I. But I am getting confusing answers. So what is it? Any straight answers? Thx.

polonus · Joined: 14 Jul 2006 Posts: 6

Quote: 25 yrs of driving and you didn't know this?

Yes, and few pictures to prove it :twisted:

In a sense I started driving Macks and Whites and now I am driving truck from the same company, but it is a big difference. For instance Internet access in my truck, so I can posts messages on Forum, check weather, loads and fuel prices. Life is good. It could be better, sure, but now are the good old days. I would not change the green Volvo for this red White, or International from National Freight with 270 HP, 7 speed Spicer and 57 mph top speed. :lol:

Rev.Vassago · Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:31 pm Post subject:

polonus wrote:
That is exactly why I ask. Just to be safe, I always marked 15 min after each 8, or later 10 hrs break. It was different, when I drove 5 on 5 off, but now it is no option. However I recently heard what jiptwoo said, so I?m checking with smarter then I. But I am getting confusing answers. So what is it? Any straight answers? Thx.

Okay - I'm gonna spell this out for you, and make it real simple - disregard anyone who says that they MUST be right because they never got cited in a DOT inspection.

There are several FMCSA rules that govern pre trip and post trip inspections. Here they are, with links to their location:

PRE TRIP INSPECTIONS:
Quote: [url=http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/fmcsrruletext.asp?section=396.13]?396.13 Driver inspection. [/url]

Before driving a motor vehicle, the driver shall:

(a) Be satisfied that the motor vehicle is in safe operating condition;

(b) Review the last driver vehicle inspection report; and

(c) Sign the report, only if defects or deficiencies were noted by the driver who prepared the report, to acknowledge that the driver has reviewed it and that there is a certification that the required repairs have been performed. The signature requirement does not apply to listed defects on a towed unit which is no longer part of the vehicle combination.

This regulation says that you must perform an inspection of the vehicle BEFORE driving it, and review the prior post trip inspection from the day before.

Quote: [url=http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/fmcsrruletext.asp?section=383.113]?383.113 Required skills.[/url]

(c)(1) Pre-trip inspection skills. Applicants shall demonstrate the skills necessary to conduct a pre-trip inspection which includes the ability to:

(c)(1)(i) Locate and verbally identify air brake operating controls and monitoring devices;

(c)(1)(ii) Determine the motor vehicle's brake system condition for proper adjustments and that air system connections between motor vehicles have been properly made and secured;

(c)(1)(iii) Inspect the low pressure warning device(s) to ensure that they will activate in emergency situations;

(c)(1)(iv) Ascertain, with the engine running, that the system maintains an adequate supply of compressed air;

(c)(1)(v) Determine that required minimum air pressure build up time is within acceptable limits and that required alarms and emergency devices automatically deactivate at the proper pressure level; and

(c)(1)(vi) Operationally check the brake system for proper performance.

This regulation specifically states what items must be inspected during a pre trip inspection, and that the driver must be qualified to perform such an inspection.

POST TRIP INSPECTIONS:
Quote: [URL=http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/fmcsrruletext.asp?section=396.11]?396.11 Driver vehicle inspection report(s). [/URL]

(a) Report required. Every motor carrier shall require its drivers to report, and every driver shall prepare a report in writing at the completion of each day's work on each vehicle operated and the report shall cover at least the following parts and accessories:

Service brakes including trailer brake connections

Parking (hand) brake

Steering mechanism

Lighting devices and reflectors

Tires

Horn

Windshield wipers

Rear vision mirrors

Coupling devices

Wheels and rims

Emergency equipment

This regulation states that at the END of the day, you must complete the daily vehicle inspection report, and certify that all the items listed are in proper running order, and if they aren't, it must be noted and repaired, with all repairs noted and signed off on BEFORE the vehicle is driven again.

DEFINITON OF ON DUTY TIME:

Quote: [url=http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/fmcsrruletext.asp?rule_toc=764&section=395.2&section_toc=1939]?395.2 Definitions. [/url]

As used in this part, the following words and terms are construed to mean:

On duty time means all time from the time a driver begins to work or is required to be in readiness to work until the time the driver is relieved from work and all responsibility for performing work. On duty time shall include:

(1) All time at a plant, terminal, facility, or other property of a motor carrier or shipper, or on any public property, waiting to be dispatched, unless the driver has been relieved from duty by the motor carrier;

(2) All time inspecting, servicing, or conditioning any commercial motor vehicle at any time;

This means that all time spent performing inspections is considered ON DUTY TIME, and must be logged as such.

Here is some clarification taken from the interpretations:

Quote: Question 11: Must nontransportation-related work for a motor carrier be recorded as on-duty time?

Guidance: Yes. All work for a motor carrier, whether compensated or not, must be recorded as on-duty time. The term "work" as used in the definition of "on-duty time" in ?395.2 of the FMCSRs is not limited to driving or other nontransportation-related employment.

As far as the rules for flagging increments less than 15 minutes, here they are:

Quote: Question 1: How should a change of duty status for a short period of time be shown on the driver's record of duty status?

Guidance: Short periods of time (less than 15 minutes) may be identified by drawing a line from the appropriate on-duty (not driving) or driving line to the remarks section and entering the amount of time, such as "6 minutes," and the geographic location of the duty status change.

As you can see, FMCSA requires that an inspection be done before driving, an inspection be done after driving (at which time you fill out the daily vehicle inspection report), and that any time spent inspecting is considered ON DUTY time.

Plain and simple, log a pre trip, and do the pre trip at the beginning of the day. Log a post trip, and do the post trip at the end of the day.

If you are speedy gonzalez, and you can manage to inspect all those items in less than 15 minutes, then you can flag the pre trip or post trip, and not drop down to "On Duty, Not Driving".

But I challenge anyone to inspect all those items listed on the pre trip in less than 15 minutes, and I challenge anyone to inspect all the items listed on your "Daily Vehicle Inspection Report" in less than 15 minutes.

polonus · Joined: 14 Jul 2006 Posts: 6

Thx, Rev! Therefore, I stick to what I was doing all those years. On duty 15 min at the beginning of the day and after each 10 hrs break, and flag it at the end of the day. It worked for me so far, so it will in the future. At least to next change in the DOT regulations.

One more thing. Being a trucker for many years is not always good for knowing all the laws and regulations by the book. We do many things because we always were doing them. Kid after school knows all the rules, but I never went to school. That is why I ask.

When I got my class A license, in 1982, it was not a CDL, but chauffeurs license. Road test: I had to drive around a driver license office, no backing, no parking, no inspecting truck, except checking windshield wipers and a horn. Officer was so happy I did not drive over lawn and bushes and that he could understand me, (my English was very, very poor then), he happily gave mi license. :D

Myth_Buster · Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:10 pm Post subject:

jiptwoo:

Quote: You can just flag your pretrip, not using any minutes, then you can do your inspection anytime later. I always combined it with loading or unloading, 15 min. only.# 2 - No, one 15 min. inspection in 24 hrs. is all that's required. I have been doted many times and all I show is a 15 min inspection whether it's during loading, unloading, or during fuel, one line drawn down for 15 min , and that's it. Everything else I just flag, and have never had a ticket on my logs. Wasting 15 minutes for fueling, loading, unloading is something the personal companies require, but the only thing in the reg's is one 15 min. inspection in a 24 hr. period.

Cases have been built for 70 hour rule violations using 15 minutes for pre-trip/post-trip inspections, 15 minutes for fuel each fuel stop and 15 minutes for loading/unloading when drivers fail to log such events and the driving time indicated the 70-hour rule was close. Roadside officers do not do the in-depth investigation the DOT does during compliance reviews. When a CR is performed all documentation is used to investigate, i.e. driver trip sheets, payroll, fuel receipts, bills of lading, repairs, roadside inspections, etc. The DOT reviews a minimum of 30 days for the drivers selected for HOS.

Rev.Vassago:

Quote: No - this section of FMCSA code pertains to Pre Trip inspections - not in-route inspections. It must be done prior to driving. There are no regulations for in-route inspections, except for certain operations (such as hazmat, oversize, etc.)

Incorrect, Part 392 states:

Quote: ?392.7 Equipment, inspection and use.

No commercial motor vehicle shall be driven unless the driver is satisfied that the following parts and accessories are in good working order, nor shall any driver fail to use or make use of such parts and accessories when and as needed:

Service brakes, including trailer brake connections.

Parking (hand) brake.

Steering mechanism.

Lighting devices and reflectors.

Tires.

Horn.

Windshield wiper or wipers.

Rear-vision mirror or mirrors.

Coupling devices.

I have always considered this the in-transit inspection. Every time the driver exits the vehicle then these items should be checked before the driver continues operation. Drivers are often asked when was the last time they checked the vehicle when safety defects are discovered.

Be safe.

Rev.Vassago · Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 4:06 pm Post subject:

Myth_Buster wrote: I have always considered this the in-transit inspection.

What you consider to be a regulation is irrelevant. It's what FMCSA considers to be a regulation that matters.

Quote: Every time the driver exits the vehicle then these items should be checked before the driver continues operation.

The question wasn't whether the items should be checked throughout the trip, but when it was necessary to log it - FMCSA is very clear that a pre-trip and post-trip inspection are required, and that they are considered "On Duty, Not Driving".

Quote: Drivers are often asked when was the last time they checked the vehicle when safety defects are discovered.

Your point? If I perform, and log a pre-trip inspection, and am stopped at a scale where a defect is discovered, I have satisfied the FMCSA rules, and will not receive a citation for my log book. Whether I receive a citation for defective equipment is a completely different issue.

Who are you anyway, and why are you bumping these old threads?

Myth_Buster · Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 4:49 pm Post subject:

Rev.Vassago:

Quote: What you consider to be a regulation is irrelevant. It's what FMCSA considers to be a regulation that matters.

There?s no question the regulation exist, it?s a matter of interpretation. In the case of Part 392 a driver is responsible for safe operation of the vehicle at all times.

Quote: The question wasn't whether the items should be checked throughout the trip, but when it was necessary to log it - FMCSA is very clear that a pre-trip and post-trip inspection are required, and that they are considered "On Duty, Not Driving".

Perhaps, however, you posted erroneous information stating there was no requirement for in-route inspections.

Quote: No - this section of FMCSA code pertains to Pre Trip inspections - not in-route inspections. It must be done prior to driving. There are no regulations for in-route inspections, except for certain operations (such as hazmat, oversize, etc.)

In addition to your comment you failed to list Part 392.7 as a regulation that required an inspection to be performed.

Part 392 varies from Part 396, whereas Part 392 is the operation of a CMV. Part 396 is scheduled maintenance.

Quote: Quote:
Quote:
Drivers are often asked when was the last time they checked the vehicle when safety defects are discovered.

Your point?

It increases culpability for prosecution. The FMCSA does not write tickets, the FMCSA prepares cases. When it can be substantiated the driver failed to do their job the driver may receive a claim letter from the FMCSA.

The FMCSR now requires Special Agents to complete 32 Level 1 or Level 5 inspections each year. Therefore drivers are seeing more of the FMCSA than in previous years.

Quote: If I perform, and log a pre-trip inspection, and am stopped at a scale where a defect is discovered, I have satisfied the FMCSA rules, and will not receive a citation for my log book.

No but you can be cited for Part 396.7 Unsafe vehicles forbidden or Part 392.7 or other applicable violation for maintenance issues.

Quote: Whether I receive a citation for defective equipment is a completely different issue.

Perhaps, however, as indicated you provided mis-leading information so drivers should be educated of the facts.

Quote: Who are you anyway,

Someone knowledgeable of the regulations and enforcement procedures.

Quote: and why are you bumping these old threads?

The posts were on the current page, and uncovering misconceptions is important. You have posted some good information. However, some of the information you supplied isn?t factual.

Be safe.

Fozzy · Joined: 02 Sep 2005 Posts: 2460

I worked for an outfit that required the flag at the beginning and the actually logged post trip. I NEVER did it that way as I am in agreement with the way Rev Vassago inerprets the regs. after a while they quit complaining about it. Some of these companies hire some real odd ducks for safety managers and some who have also never driven a truck...

Myth_Buster · Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:40 pm Post subject:

Fozzy

Quote: I worked for an outfit that required the flag at the beginning and the actually logged post trip. I NEVER did it that way as I am in agreement with the way Rev Vassago inerprets the regs. after a while they quit complaining about it. Some of these companies hire some real odd ducks for safety managers and some who have also never driven a truck...

Then again perhaps drivers fail to log realistic times for work performed and never expect to be caught. Is it unrealistic to believe that performing a pre-trip and filling out the corresponding DVIR takes at least 15 minutes? I once worked for a carrier that insisted DVIRs be marked "No Defects Found" and any equipment safety issues be submitted on a separate sheet to the maintenance department. Those separate sheets can be used in documenting false reports, i.e. DVIRs. The DVIR is a required report and covered by Part 390.35.

It's not uncommon for drivers to be cited for false logs when there is unrealistic on-duty time recorded, i.e. 15 minutes for tarping a load of hay. :shock:

Be safe.

Truck Driving Jobs

Trucking Jobs

Truck Drivers

Trucking Companies

Class A Drivers.com