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kimahri1114 · Joined: 11 Jan 2006 Posts: 425 Location: Texas

Oh? Is it? Well then I will post another!

"You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face....You must do the thing you think you cannot."
-Eleanor Roosevelt

redsfan · Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 6:03 am Post subject:

Fozzy wrote: It seems you know about as much of history as you do the constitution. We are NOT nor have we ever been a democracy and the founding fathers knew better than to make this one. it's a fact that democracies are doomed from the start and its been proven more than once. This country is and has been on the verge of democracy since the dumbing down of the populace through the ever lowering standards of the education system.

Wow, this topic really went down the tubes while I was sleeping... Mack, I sincerely apologize for leading it astray and believe me, it all tied in at one time.

As for Fozzy, I see that you wish to resort to accusing everyone of being dumber than you to make your point. I, for one, am not threatened by your self-proclaimed "superior thinking". I'm very confident in the education I received in the "ever lowering standards of the education system". I do know history and I do know the constitution. I've heard all of the pundits cry over the years, "We're not a democracy, we're a Republic dammit!" To them, I say BS. I know that we are and were always intended to be a "democratic republic". I'm fairly certain that the founding fathers had the foresight to see that it is still a democracy when representatives are elected by popular vote. They then decide on laws based on "popular vote". Every where you look in our government it is a "majority rules" system. Whether it be the local town council deciding the issue, the Senate deciding an issue or the Supreme court deciding a case.

Every president at one point or another has spoken of democracy as well as most civil rights activists. It is not a dirty word at all. The word "gay" is not referred to in the Constitution, just the same as blacks were not referred to and women's right to vote is not referred to in the original Amendments. It wasn't the issue then that it is now. Abraham Lincoln stated that the "Constitution is an incomplete document". I agree with him 100%. I love the Constitution, this country and democracy. I believe it is a great "basic set of rules" to live by. I'm not belittling the Constitution at all, I'm just calling it as it is and as it was intended to be. It was never an end-all, do-all as I stated previously.

I do not know you at all and will not pretend to know you based on a few posts of yours that I have read on a forum. I certainly don't know enough about you to call you "ignorant". I have my beliefs and opinions, as you have yours and we are never going to change each other's mind. We could go on for days, but I really feel as though it would go nowhere, but downhill. I offer you a truce and whether or not you accept it is up to you. I, for one, feel bad for the OP as we all have highjacked his post. I suppose it was to be expected given the flavor of the topic and a lot of the info here does circle around the original topic. Although, I will probably continue to monitor this thread because curiousity is our nature, I will try my best to refrain from posting because I feel that most people understand where I stand and there is no sense in me typing the same things over and over again. Thanks to all for stimulating conversation, I think I even learned a few things.

Fozzy · Joined: 02 Sep 2005 Posts: 2460

It is Imorality Fozzy, Thats why it should not be legalized. I don't care if someone is gay, or whatever, but to legalize it is ridiculous.

This is a bald face lie! You obviously DO care if someone is gay because you are willing to limit their liberty.

Your argument has no base except to attack the religious foundation of our country, That in itself is immoral.

And your argument does nothing but try and install some sort of governmental theocracy that would monitor those who you disagree with. How American...

You have nothing except yourself saying that it does not harm anything you do, but your wrong. You give them an inch they take a mile. Why? because it is sin, immoral and it spreads like cancer, That is why!

And as of yet, all there has been is "bogeyman" talk about homosexuals harming society. As of yet there has been ZERO proof that two adult Americans living their own lives have the explicit right guaranteed to them in the Constitution. This is a right, the government and the religious bigots have no business in even questioning it.

I believe I have expressed my thought very well. You just seem to want to argue my and many others opinion on the matter, we have defended our opinion and what we believe and know to be true and Truth, what have you defended Fozzy, but some people who want equal rights because they want to be Immoral.

You have done nothing more than spout your opinion. Your opinion is just that. You have the right to live your life free from government intrusion, so does everyone else. The fact that people blame the decline of society on this small segment of the population is just asinine. And to say that homosexuality is immoral is also your opinion. You have a right not to be a homosexual if that is what you wish.

It spreads, it's already being tought in the school's, and protested by the minority, so they can say "hey I'm gay and I need to teach your children and you have to accept me" I DON"T THINK SO, If they wan't to live immoral, they can do it in thier own houses, and not try to express thier immorality on the moral.

So you're saying that only the homosexuals are immoral? That statement points out the lack of common sense and logic so often missing in these debates.

Therfor they should not be allowed to marry legaly, because it is bringing something Immoral into law and allowing it to spread.

Spread? So this is going to make heterosexuals marry homosexuals? There are gay people who have been living together for decades. There are others who would probably get married if given the chance. What has changed on this other than the legal protections that marriage should get? Will allowing gay marriages make all the heterosexual lemmings stop all their sexual romps? I highly doubt it. If this wasn't such a bloated example of do as I say-not as I do, I've never seen one!

On the other Thread of "Fact or Speculation" is the story of Sodom and Gommorah which they have found, EVEDIENCE on Gods view of Immorality.

In your opinion. They've found evidence about all sorts of things, usually that doesn't mean anything other than it creates more speculation on facts.

Maybe we should start another debate!!!
and if we do maybe you should bring some facts this time instead of Fozzy says so.

And maybe you should bring something other than that sham comic book that was recreated several times over to control the populace by a demented King. I think you may study up on Catholicism, if you get your wish of religious majority making the laws and setting punishments in this country, you better learn to bow to the Pope and kiss his robes.

Fozzy · Joined: 02 Sep 2005 Posts: 2460

Slimland wrote: Colin wrote: Crime is immoral. Where is the anti crime thread? Has crime not spread like a cancer for years? And years? And years?

What exactly is immoral about two adults (of the same sex, of course) living together in the same house?

I have already answerd that question read the whole thread!!
We've got Laws for the crime's, but some wanna be goody tissues activist in the plural form over the years have taken away some of the crime deturents like hanging. 8)

What rights are being taken from one homosexual to have sex with another homosexual? This is where the religious folks seem to have the wheels come off the wagon. If two adults decided to get together and do something to or with each other, its no ones (especially the governments) business. Who's rights are being violated here? To have a CRIME there must be someones property made non-usable or there must be injury caused to another party. In this debate, this just doesn't meet the standard of a crime.

Fozzy · Joined: 02 Sep 2005 Posts: 2460

kimahri1114 wrote: NO! I feel the same as those 95 do. if the fags wanna be gay, move to Africa or something. Free our country of scum. And if one of them tried to push that on me.................. :twisted:

Do you also use this term in school? How often do you use the "N" word and is that acceptable to you in discussion about black Americans?.

Fozzy · Joined: 02 Sep 2005 Posts: 2460

Every where you look in our government it is a "majority rules" system. Whether it be the local town council deciding the issue, the Senate deciding an issue or the Supreme court deciding a case.

If that where true, then there would still be slaves and women would still be property. There darn sure would be no blacks in southern colleges and there would be Jim Crow laws to keep them from voting and owning property.

The word "gay" is not referred to in the Constitution, just the same as blacks were not referred to and women's right to vote is not referred to in the original Amendments. It wasn't the issue then that it is now.

The word "Baptism" is there either,,, is that also illegal in your eyes? I don't remember the word pickles being in their either.. I guess I better get them out of the house!

I certainly don't know enough about you to call you "ignorant". I have my beliefs and opinions, as you have yours and we are never going to change each other's mind.

I have been and still am ignorant of many things, ignorant is not derogatory unless you chose to remain that way.

We could go on for days, but I really feel as though it would go nowhere, but downhill. I offer you a truce and whether or not you accept it is up to you. I, for one, feel bad for the OP as we all have highjacked his post. I suppose it was to be expected given the flavor of the topic and a lot of the info here does circle around the original topic.

The topic is about homosexual marriage, it's not off topic to talk about why it shouldn't be based on the articles that limit the governments power.

Although, I will probably continue to monitor this thread because curiousity is our nature, I will try my best to refrain from posting because I feel that most people understand where I stand and there is no sense in me typing the same things over and over again. Thanks to all for stimulating conversation, I think I even learned a few things.

Keep reading and keep learning, the point I will continue to make is that every American has the right to like or dislike whatever the choose to. They have the right to live their lives as they see fit. Other American have all those same rights and no one should be able to restrict their liberties.

Colin · Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 1416 Location: Kennewick, WA

When do you feel pressed to become gay? Do you feel forced to do anything you see in public that you don't already do (smoke, drink, speeding, etc)? Are you that gullible?

Again, since you're holding the foundation, how could the country be going down the drain? Your words, remember.

Slimland wrote: befor you quote me on this thinking "ahh we got em".
I go back to the other post and resay again, in thier own homes is thier buisness, but not publicaly, thats what thier doing if they get thier way, spreading thier belief and pressing it on us, who hold the foundation of the country wich it was founded on.

Slimland · Joined: 27 Dec 2005 Posts: 1626 Location: Texas

You 2 Guys are trying to argue an immoral argue. Trying to twist words to your profit. The others on this board know what I have said and know it to be truth. I'm sorry your minds are so darkend to the FACTS, that you still cannot face them. I have done all I could, so I leave this too some one else.

You can Twist perception, Reality won't budge you can raise objection I will be the judge and the jury. I'll give it due reflection, watching from the fence. Give the jury direction based on the evedince.

redsfan · Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 10:23 am Post subject:

Ok, shoot me, curiousity killed the cat... There were just a couple of things that I apparently left "open" so I will clear them up and then I'm done, I promise.

My personal belief is that majority rules laws would have protected blacks and women by now regardless. Your opinion is that it would not, fine. Neither of us know for "darn sure" that either of us would be correct. There is just no way of knowing that to be a fact. Mere opinion, nothing more.

I wasn't saying that gay, baptist or even pickles for that matter are illegal nor am I saying they should be. I was merely stating that 10 articles cannot possible address every single issue that will ever come up. I also believe that "baptism" falls under freedom of religion so, no it is not illegal in my eyes. I will tell you one thing, if a law is passed that says it is illegal to own pickles, yes you had better get them out of your house! I thought that was a very bad analogy, but again, this is my "opinion".

I understand that ignorance is not a bad thing. I, too, am ignorant of many things. I've actually tried to work a sewing machine a couple of times, but I just don't "get" the darn thing therefore I'm "ignorant" to it. You had stated that I know nothing about history or the Constitution and I believe that was an attempted insult. Maybe I'm wrong?

What started all of this was that someone stated that their state voted in a law that banned gay marriage. I replied that we have the same law here in Ohio. It doesn't make it illegal to be gay or anything of the sort, it states that two people cannot be recognized as "legally married" in the state of Ohio. I might agree with you that I don't know that it is necessary to have such a law on the books, but the fact is it's there. It has been heavily challenged and so far it has not been found to be unconstitutional. Maybe it will be in 50 years, honestly I don't know. I know that the Constitution guarantees the same basic rights to all races, genders and creeds. I do not know that it guarantees anything based upon sexual orientation or lifestyle. I guess I am ignorant to that. I also believe that it is morally wrong, but I also know that this law does not affect me one bit. Now, if the pass a law stating that white, heterosexual males cannot marry redheads then I would definitely be affected! I do believe in civil rights, but I am not an activist for it to any extreme extent. That's just me, but so far I haven't had the need to be. If you choose to be, that's fine, but there's no reason to believe that others are wrong because they don't feel the same way as you do.

Fozzy · Joined: 02 Sep 2005 Posts: 2460

You 2 Guys are trying to argue an immoral argue. Trying to twist words to your profit.

IMHO it beats trying to rule other citizens with your opinions.

The others on this board know what I have said and know it to be truth.

And they are also entitled to their opinions as you are... why do you feel that others should not be allowed theirs?

I'm sorry your minds are so darkend to the FACTS, that you still cannot face them. I have done all I could, so I leave this too some one else.

It is not those who reject the idea of some sort of American Theocracy who are living in the dark. Just as the Taliban and the other extremist religions, they are fighting to return to the dark ages.

I think you are just ejecting prematurely.. But if you feel that your craft will no longer fly...when all else fails...

You can Twist perception, Reality won't budge you can raise objection I will be the judge and the jury. I'll give it due reflection, watching from the fence. Give the jury direction based on the evedince.[/quote]

Slimland · Joined: 27 Dec 2005 Posts: 1626 Location: Texas

Fozzy wrote: Slimland wrote: You 2 Guys are trying to argue an immoral argue. Trying to twist words to your profit. The others on this board know what I have said and know it to be truth. I'm sorry your minds are so darkend to the FACTS, that you still cannot face them. I have done all I could, so I leave this too some one else.

I think you are just ejecting prematurely.. All else fails...

You can Twist perception, Reality won't budge you can raise objection I will be the judge and the jury. I'll give it due reflection, watching from the fence. Give the jury direction based on the evedince.

You have every right to think that!
I have proven my point, and the defense rest!
:)

Fozzy · Joined: 02 Sep 2005 Posts: 2460

My personal belief is that majority rules laws would have protected blacks and women by now regardless. Your opinion is that it would not, fine. Neither of us know for "darn sure" that either of us would be correct. There is just no way of knowing that to be a fact. Mere opinion, nothing more.

Really? until the 1960's in some states, blacks could not vote and they couldn't attend the colleges of their choice. Some of the States even added the confederate battle flag as full blown threat to them and as a sign they they would not allow the federal government to dictate how to treat "their" blacks. Please spare me the "things will work out somehow" blather. Opinons are based a lot on experience and history of anything and everything. Sometimes the hard core knotheads have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the reality that just because you are in the majority, you cannot rule others.

I wasn't saying that gay, baptist or even pickles for that matter are illegal nor am I saying they should be. I was merely stating that 10 articles cannot possible address every single issue that will ever come up.

Sure they can. Again however for some knotheads, bigots and elitists, they have to have things clarified. When the bill of rights says things, it includes all Americans regardless of who they chose to have sex with.

I also believe that "baptism" falls under freedom of religion so, no it is not illegal in my eyes. I will tell you one thing, if a law is passed that says it is illegal to own pickles, yes you had better get them out of your house! I thought that was a very bad analogy, but again, this is my "opinion".

To hear some tell it, unless everyone's child is forced to be lead in a state sanctioned prayer, they will end up morally bankrupt. So if the majority religion (Catholics) demands that majority rules, then Baptism could be outlawed and immoral and contrary to their will.

I understand that ignorance is not a bad thing. I, too, am ignorant of many things. I've actually tried to work a sewing machine a couple of times, but I just don't "get" the darn thing therefore I'm "ignorant" to it.

Not the same issue nor does this mean the same thing. You are now no longer ignorant of sewing. You may be unskilled in it, but ignorance is now not a valid decription.

You had stated that I know nothing about history or the Constitution and I believe that was an attempted insult. Maybe I'm wrong?

Only an insult if you decided it was. If you can rationalize the majority once again allowing the government to interject themselves into other citizens private lives, then it wasnt too far off.

What started all of this was that someone stated that their state voted in a law that banned gay marriage. I replied that we have the same law here in Ohio. It doesn't make it illegal to be gay or anything of the sort, it states that two people cannot be recognized as "legally married" in the state of Ohio.

And not too long ago in this country , it was illegal for blacks, Jews and mixed races to marry. Again, the country (through the supreme court) decided that this was none of the government's business and two adult homosexuals who wish to have the same LEGAL rights that other married couples enjoy should be allowed too. This falls under the equal protection under the law statues.

I might agree with you that I don't know that it is necessary to have such a law on the books, but the fact is it's there. It has been heavily challenged and so far it has not been found to be unconstitutional.

And for most people its a knee jerk reaction to the question. Again the homosexuals have done little to nothing when compared to the "run o the mill" heterosexual to add to the rate of decline of the American society.

Maybe it will be in 50 years, honestly I don't know. I know that the Constitution guarantees the same basic rights to all races, genders and creeds. I do not know that it guarantees anything based upon sexual orientation or lifestyle.

sure it does, its called liberty and the right to privacy.

I guess I am ignorant to that. I also believe that it is morally wrong, but I also know that this law does not affect me one bit. Now, if the pass a law stating that white, heterosexual males cannot marry redheads then I would definitely be affected!

you have the right not to marry or not marry whomever you choose. Homosexuals do not have this right. It's perfectly fine for heterosexuals to marry or not. Even if these clown decide NOT to get married, there are quite a few states that consider them married! It's legal for heterosexuals to marry children in this country! So pedophilia is legal here, but two adults who are the same gender will make someone nervous? :roll: There needs to be legal protection for the common law spouse of the homosexual to protect themselves from the government and allow them legal next of kin rights.

I do believe in civil rights, but I am not an activist for it to any extreme extent. That's just me, but so far I haven't had the need to be. If you choose to be, that's fine, but there's no reason to believe that others are wrong because they don't feel the same way as you do.

Wanting others to have the same rights as other Americans is not extreme. picking and choosing who can get married and who is "moral" based on one religion's text is the extremes.

kimahri1114 · Joined: 11 Jan 2006 Posts: 425 Location: Texas

I turned over the paper I did the survey on, and someone had written this, "what about people who are in prison? do they have the right to be gay, since they can't have normal sex with women?" I don't know why he didn't ask me. I am glad he didn't because I don't know an answer for that. What do you think?

Oh, and fozzy, what exactly did you mean by that post to me?

Fozzy · Joined: 02 Sep 2005 Posts: 2460

what about people who are in prison? do they have the right to be gay, since they can't have normal sex with women?" I don't know why he didn't ask me. I am glad he didn't because I don't know an answer for that. What do you think?

To be sure, there is gay sex in prison. the majority of the sex in prison has little to do with sex and more to do with power and control. Sex is used as a weapon to keep other inmates under control by those who are running the show.

Oh, and fozzy, what exactly did you mean by that post to me?

What do you think I meant in the post to you? here's a hint: Slurs are slurs regardless of what group you are using them against and are (or should be) against the posting guidelines.

kimahri1114 · Joined: 11 Jan 2006 Posts: 425 Location: Texas

I wasn't being prejudice against the gay people. No discrimination there fozzy!

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