Bad Grounds Suck

[Musicman]

Since we bought our new truck, I’ve been battling some mysterious problems. One is an intermittent cruise problem I’ve already posted about in this forum. Another one is a problem burning out headlights and associated harness connectors. All battery connections are tight and I’ve looked at just about every other possibility. A few months ago, I was in Whittier, CA and spent about eight hours with Tyler Stone, the owner of Comfortmaster APU, and one of the things he mentioned when we were talking about trucks in general is how surprised he was at how poorly most truck electrical systems are designed. He commented that the battery cables with the huge insulated ends (over the connectors) are garbage because the insulation on the connectors limits contact between jumpers (between batteries) and battery cables and the battery posts, and that he’s never seen a truck that was properly grounded from the factory. Tyler and Comfortmaster are only recent entrants into the APU market. For the last twenty years or more, his companies have provided custom built generators to the movie industry, department of defense and others, so when it comes to issues involving electrical power I value his opinion.

This week, I finally got a chance to really work on our truck and it’s amazing what I found. The starter has only one 2 or 0 gauge ground wire going to the frame and the same thing applies to the batteries. What is even worse is the way they are attached to the frame. Peterbilt drilled a hole through the painted frame, put a 3 inch bolt through it, and put two washers and a nut on the bolt, then the ground and then another set of washers and a nut. The result of this is that the ground wire connector makes no bare metal to bare metal contact directly with the frame, but rather must rely solely on its contact with the bolt and nuts to conduct current. Direct Current electricity travels on the outside of surfaces, not through them, so the idea is to have as much surface area in contact between connections as possible. Peterbilt seems not to understand this.

I removed the starter ground from its frame mount bolt, took the nuts and washers off the bolt, ground off the paint surrounding the bolt hole and then bolted the ground connecter directly to the exposed frame. I also added an additional 0 gauge battery ground to the same bolt. The result was that the starter spins the engine more easily, all of my lights (especially headlights) are brighter, the charging system seems to be working more efficiently (volts gauge used to put out just above 13.5 volts, now it’s putting out 14.2), and I was able to idle the truck up with the cruise without it kicking out after a few seconds, which has always been a problem.

My last Peterbilt would go through a starter about every 18 months to 2 years. It makes me wonder now if part of its short life span was due to having an inadequate ground. I won’t know for certain if this solved my headlight and cruise problem until I get out on the road and put some hours on the truck, but things are definitely looking up.

Even if you aren’t having any electrical problems, it might be worth your time to check how well grounded your truck really is. It might save some problems and money down the road.

[Rev.Vassago]

I just had all my batteries and starter replaced 2 days ago (due to some serious hesitation when starting), and the first thing the Peterbilt technician did was to cut all the insulation off the battery connectors. He said pretty much the same thing you are - that the insulation actually hinders the batteries from creating a good connection.

I went with a different type of starter too - this starter uses about half the amps as the old one to start the truck, and weighs about 30 lbs less to boot. It is made by Mitsubishi, but PACCAR has put their name on it. At just under $300, it is a bit pricier than the Delco starter that they have carried for years, but it also has a 3 year warranty with it. Well worth the money, IMO, even though it sounds really weird when I start the truck now.

I also was a die hard advocate of Optima batteries, but after discussing my battery options with the parts guy, I decided that they were no longer the answer for me. I tend to discharge my batteries pretty low, which is why I always used Group 31 batteries, but he convinced me that a dual-use PACCAR battery was a much better option. At a little more than a third of the price of an Optima, and with a 2 year non-prorated warranty, I don't see how I can go wrong with them.

I was shocked to find that they wanted nearly $300 for an Optima battery. The last time I had an Optima changed, it was about $100 less. To spend $1200 on a set of four batteries would have been ridiculous, when I got a set of 4 PACCAR batteries for $480.

Hopefully your headlight issue is solved. Keep us posted.

[allan5oh]

The starter you speak of rev is a gear reduction starter, I think the old direct drive starters are garbage. Gear reduction is the way to go.

[Musicman]

Rev, Tyler did the same thing with my cable ends when he was fixing some of the things the APU installers at the dealership cut corners on. He also said that the insulators hold corosion in and magnify the problem. It makes good sense, I have to admit.

I bought Optimas a year ago and a set of four installed at the Petro in York, NE cost me $900, if I remember correctly. I have no complaints about them, and have certainly put them through Hell. We were pulling an enclosed auto transport at the time; and before we got the Optimas, I’d have to idle to power the electric hydraulic pump on the transport. After the Optimas, I could load eight Lotuses at the port running on nothing but battery power and the truck would start right up every time when we were done. The PACCAR batteries do sound interesting though, if for nothing more than the two year warranty and price. Whenever my Optimas need replaced, I’ll have to look into getting a set of them, although by then there will probably be something new and improved out. Battery technology seems to be growing by leaps and bounds these days… one of the few good things about all this “Green Technology”.

The headlight problem I could live with. The cruise problem drives me close to insanity. Hopefully this little trick has solved both problems.

[Musicman]

At just under $300, it is a bit pricier than the Delco starter that they have carried for years, but it also has a 3 year warranty with it. Well worth the money, IMO, even though it sounds really weird when I start the truck now..

$300 is CHEAP. I've not had to replace a starter on our new truck yet, but on my '03 387 the Delco cost $345. I will definately have to write this down and keep it in the truck for handy reference.

[allan5oh]

Get the delco 39mt instead of the 42mt. It's cheaper, gear reduction, and all around better.

I think I paid $270 for mine.

[Musicman]

Get the delco 39mt instead of the 42mt. It's cheaper, gear reduction, and all around better. I think I paid $270 for mine.

Yes, but if it is like other Delco starters, it only has a 1 year warranty. I like the sound of the Mitsubishi starter Rev bought with a three year warranty. Our truck is 2.5 years old and if it’s like our last 387, its starter probably has one foot in the grave already.

[allan5oh]

The 39mt comes with a 3 year warranty.

[Musicman]

Is it also 30 pounds lighter than the standard OEM starter as the Mitsubishi model touted by Rev is? If so, then there would seem to be no real difference between the two besides personal preference and / or availability. Being 30 pounds lighter sure would make swapping a starter a lot easier.

[allan5oh]

It will be similar to the mitsubishi yes, planetary drive, gear reduction, soft engage, etc.. worlds ahead of the old direct drive clunkers we called "starters". They should be obsolete!

FWIW, I know someone in the parts side of things, and he says the denso starters are by far the best. Good luck finding one though.

[Rev.Vassago]

I gave the starter a real test yesterday. I sat with the truck off for about 6 hours with the inverter running, and when I went to start it, it was just under 12V. Fired up without any problem. No lugging, no hesitating, nothing. This starter is a WIN in my book.

Time will tell if the batteries can handle the abuse I'm throwing at them though.

[Kranky]

The best way to be sure the starter has a proper ground (and the way it used to be done before truck builders started trying to cut corners by using less copper cable) is to run a 0 gauge cable directly from the ground side of the batteries to the ground post on the starter.

This would be in addition to the existing ground cables attached to the frame.

No matter how good of a connection there is where the ground cables bolt to the frame, there is bound to be some amount of resistance, and that resistance will only increase with time due to corrosion from salt spray etc.

The newer Internationals where I work have the ground cable to frame, then ground cable from frame to starter setup, and we have had to unbolt & clean the connections on those too, but we went a step further and ran a direct ground to the starter as previously described.

Also, in a previous thread I described another cause of poor starter performance:

That momentary drag when you try to start the truck

Also double check those short cables that connect the 3 or 4 batteries together.

We've had a couple of those where the copper terminal fractured inside the plastic covering at the cable end. If this happens to one of the cables between bat # 1 & 2 in the lineup, it causes the truck to only be able to utilize one battery out of the 3 or 4, causing sluggish starting. Externally, nothing appears wrong, but you need to pull them all off the batteries and check the cables for continuity. Also visually inspect the terminal ends, if they look questionable, replace them.

[allan5oh]

Mine is a touch sluggish, but I think that's due to the batteries. Definitely not the starter, it's only a few months old and works fine normally. Just cranks a little slow when it's cold. Maybe it's a ground!

[Musicman]

No matter how good of a connection there is where the ground cables bolt to the frame, there is bound to be some amount of resistance, and that resistance will only increase with time due to corrosion from salt spray etc.

I still have a couple of days 'til I hit the road again. I'm working on spaying the connection I made at the frame with as many coats of frame paint as I can before I go out. It was a real bear to get the nuts tightenend down on the bolt in the frame, because of where it was located (near the bottom of the rail, between the starter and the frame). In fact, it was a two person job, but it was easier than drilling a new hole in the frame.

[Musicman]

Also double check those short cables that connect the 3 or 4 batteries together.

We've had a couple of those where the copper terminal fractured inside the plastic covering at the cable end. If this happens to one of the cables between bat # 1 & 2 in the lineup, it causes the truck to only be able to utilize one battery out of the 3 or 4, causing sluggish starting. Externally, nothing appears wrong, but you need to pull them all off the batteries and check the cables for continuity. Also visually inspect the terminal ends, if they look questionable, replace them.

If by copper terminals, you mean the brass or copper ring that they have put inside the hole in the wire connector, I took those out when we cut all the insulation of the ends of the wires. I just have a huge flat spade at the end of each wire now. Lots of nice bare surface area to make good contact with the other wires and the battery itself. Ever since we did that, we have not had one single battery issue, and I will sit for 24 hours or more with the inverter running, a cooler / fridge hooked up, radio on, satellite radio on, notebook computer running, and bunk light on and the truck still starts right up every time.

[YerDaddy]

Isn't the reason people buy new trucks to eliminate problems?

Funny how my old '96 Fr8shKr gives me no trouble.

Ground studs are factory welded to the frame on mine.

Kinda throws that new truck/old truck theory under the bus!

[Musicman]

Isn't the reason people buy new trucks to eliminate problems?

Funny how my old '96 Fr8shKr gives me no trouble.

Ground studs are factory welded to the frame on mine.

Kinda throws that new truck/old truck theory under the bus!

Having the ground studs welded would not make the ground any better, as it depends on how much bare metal to bare metal contact there is between the wire and the frame. It would make the little modification I just made to my ground a lot easier, though.

New trucks are not necessarily better than old ones. Had my last truck not been stolen, I'd have kept it. All a new truck is, is a source of unknown problems. Every truck seems to have a "personality." Two identical trucks will have different mechanical issues and drive a little differently. At least with a truck that you've had for a long time, you know what to expect and when to expect it (as far as mechanical problems go.

[bob h]

As a point of interest; anyone who understands electricty, and works with it in a shop should know how to test for a bad ground... it is a measurable parameter in electrical testing, and does not require removal of the jumper cables, battery cables, etc.

[belpre122]

trucks in general is how surprised he was at how poorly most truck electrical systems are designed.

Indicative of the overall poor standards to which American trucks are spec'd and built. The posts following the above only reaffirm the frustration felt by operators and owners of these shoddy pieces of workmanship.

I agree with the gentleman Musicman. The electrical systems in American trucks appear almost to be put in as an afterthought. This comes as no surprise to me, as I am of the opinion that the entire truck is mostly engineered and constructed as an afterthought. Rolling junk.

I have wondered where we would be if Toyota and Honda had entered the market already? My employer is responsible for the costs associated with the poor workmanship on my Freightliner(Chrysler). Thank goodness! I jump out and drive away in my personal Toyota.

Indeed, a sad state of affairs.

[Orangetxguy]

Indicative of the overall poor standards to which American trucks are spec'd and built. The posts following the above only reaffirm the frustration felt by operators and owners of these shoddy pieces of workmanship.

I agree with the gentleman Musicman. The electrical systems in American trucks appear almost to be put in as an afterthought. This comes as no surprise to me, as I am of the opinion that the entire truck is mostly engineered and constructed as an afterthought. Rolling junk.

I have wondered where we would be if Toyota and Honda had entered the market already? My employer is responsible for the costs associated with the poor workmanship on my Freightliner(Chrysler). Thank goodness! I jump out and drive away in my personal Toyota.

Indeed, a sad state of affairs.

Ooooooooh Gary! Oh deer! Deer deer deer !!!


You is mis-informed on who makes your twuck!

Spreaken-ze-deutch!

The company that owns the manufacturer of your fine piece of "Used to be American" twuck......Is DiamlerBenz!!! They just did away with their Sterling (re;Ford twuck line).



Time for you to get some beauty sleep...so you may ponder these informative lessonz.