Do you believe in God?

[Trukrswyfe]

delete

[pigrider]

What we are saying that is why does GOD toy with us? Why let Job go through what he went through!

WHY DOESN'T GOD JUST SHOW HIS FACE AND STOP PLAYING GAMES WITH US?

Your belief is that he know all and see all.

Show his face, destroy the enemy (devil) & we will live happly ever after!

[Twilight Flyer]

:? Once again:

I typically avoid these discussions due to being a modulator, but will weigh in with a simple answer.

In all things, there must be opposition. In other words, to know joy, you must know sorrow. You have to know sickness in order to know health...pain in order to feel pain-free. The list goes on and on.

As far as putting up with evil, God doesn't make people do what they do. God grants us our free will to act as we may. Sometimes we'll let temptation get the better of us and other times we will win out over that temptation. In doing so, we progress and we learn. That's what being God's children is all about.

[Trukrswyfe]

again my error.

[pigrider]

Laughing!!

You don't owe me anything! Like I said before : "Your beliefs are your beliefs and mine are mine"

And the you telling my that you prayed for me! GIVE ME A BREAK!

I know the game! Christian use that as a POWER shift tactic to say that they feel sorry for you because you don't share their beliefs.

Hey I am finish with this conversation and this tread because when it is all said and done there is no changing how I feel about the FAIRY TALE and there is no change how you feel about your GOD!

You control your own Destiny!!!

[Fozzy]

And god is still the worst of man's creations

[Slimland]

Hey there Slim, P,

Lets get one thing straight , agrue for the sake of agruement, Nah!!

Pain why does God allow pain. Well for starters He does not like to inflick pain but we are my friend a stiff necked people and unfortunatlely when we are hurting we call on our only Help. Usually.

Why is God allowing this trial in your life right now??? Is that the real question? Have you asked him? And you got no answer? Is that what Im really hearing? To endure through a difficult trial allows the Lord to teach you to trust Him in all things. Maybe you did trust Him, maybe you were tight with Him and then Bam, Out of No where , Like a Sucker Punch then the rug was pulled out from under you.

Now your breathless in pain and on the floor. Ok maybe not but (for sake of arguement I go with this ok ) No I do not think that the Lord was up in heaven drinking his coffee spit it every where surprised as you are to be in your present cirrcumstances. Why because similarly I was going along tight with God and out of no where it was like a really bad movie for me. But in the midst of this I took a moment to gather myself catch my breathe and give thanks. Peace and Joy in the middle of a trail is an awesome and beautiful thing and the truth is if life was all sweets and roses I would begin to wonder if I was really on track. Attacks and trails are like a thermametor , they let you know where you really are. Peter says Lord I will follow you anywhere and the Lord says sorry Peter but you really won't. After that the Lord was able to really use Peter and he was crucified himself only upside down. (Foxes Book of Marters)

Gosh Im rambling, Am I saying you deserve you pain? no absolutely not, No dobt you are reading Job and questioning your belief in a God that allows pain ( mistakes of others or faulty medical equipment) right? Job never questioned if there was a God only whether he deservered his present cirrcumstances. The Lord didn't give an out right answer did He only who do you think you are to qestion me. But you and I aren't even asked to go through what Job did, He was covered in boyles with no current drugs to ease his pain just a stick to scratch with. Sorry but my own pain and life doesn't come near.

The truth is there was a purpose for Job suffering. What if God said Job I am going to write all this down and through all the years when people are in pain and struggling they will turn to these pages and see that I am God even in the midst of your trials. Do you think Job would have believed him? Maybe but of all the million and billions of believers over the years in heaven, to be Job, see what a Glorious thing the Lord did to allow those awful times in Jobs life. My point is look at the big Picture!

Could it be Im way off? About God, no luckily I have not been asked to Die for this belief? I believe there is a God and I can find something to thank Him for everyday, and in all things,

Hmm-- It was just for the sake of argument!

But you have hit on some points-- Do I as a believer blame God--YEP, why-- For the exact reason you put down.. Do I know why-- I can guess, probably cause I was comfortable.. DO I hate Him for it--NO WHY?--Becuase He knows best, all I can do is trust!
That is it, nothing more..

But this was just for the sake of argument,, Pigrider gave a good question, I wanted to see if y'all would answer it.. I think you and TF gave some good answer's, but it still didn't answer the original question.. it just gave some idea's of freewill.

So lets go off this free-will, If we have free will, why is our out come already known? Who can go against His will? This brings into mind the potter and the clay, who are we to ask!

God doesn't have to answer us. He is God.. But it would be nice.

free will IMOP is based and is the Law, for the Law is what give's us the choice.. If we didn't have the Law, then NO choice would have been offered. Thus we couldn't be held accountable. Kinda like a child.. Adam and Eve befor the Law of "thou shal not eat" did't have a law, so anything done that now would be considered sin, was not. Becuase there was no law to say don't do that..

Hasn't the law Always been there? IMOP YES-- it is apart of God, It is HOLY, and it is the bringer of Sin and Death. When it flowes through man it kills him, showing us our ungodlyness.. IMOP the law is Evil and IMOP that is the Evil that God created, Evil is not to be missunderstood as Sin, but a Temptation to Sin.. Since we are mad in Gods image, then we as little gods have the law in us, showing it written on our hearts. We are the only ones with a spirit, and that spirit has no life apart from God.. The only way to God, is through His Word, that Word is Law, and it became flesh and dwelt amongst men, So we could Believe God and who He is..

So pigrider I don't think my answer will help any,, But on top of what I said,, God made everything, and withing this everything He made the Laws, and IMOP like I have told GolfHobo, He "God" when it comes to creation and the laws of it, He willingly, abides by His Own Law..

if Not IMOP, God would be an outlaw

The Law points to God, and gives you the choice of free will to believe or not.. God cannot not believe in Himself. Thus abides by the Law.. If He where to outstep the Law, "Which I believe He could" What would happen? He would go against His own Word, and according to Paul, God can do all things Except SIN, and SIN is the fall into temtation, So God can be tempet Jesus was, but without sin. And Sin according to Hebrews is to deny God. God cannot deny Himself.. Thus He willingly abides by His own law, and we are no better, If our Lord was rejected per say, we also will be..


Just for the Sake of Argument

Slimland

[Twilight Flyer]

So lets go off this free-will, If we have free will, why is our out come already known? Who can go against His will? This brings into mind the potter and the clay, who are we to ask!

We have our free will to act as we may. God does not interfere in that, but He already knows what our decisions are going be. That is not pre-destination because we don't know how we will act and we have our free will to choose. God, being God, simply knows what those decisions are going to be, even though we haven't made them yet.

[Fozzy]

So lets go off this free-will, If we have free will, why is our out come already known? Who can go against His will? This brings into mind the potter and the clay, who are we to ask!

We have our free will to act as we may. God does not interfere in that, but He already knows what our decisions are going be. That is not pre-destination because we don't know how we will act and we have our free will to choose. God, being God, simply knows what those decisions are going to be, even though we haven't made them yet.

Thats semantic silliness. If someone has preprogrammed the outcome, then it is impossible to call it free will. This would be nothing more than a puppet show. free will means that you have a choice, predetermined outcome is not free choice.

[geomon]

Fozzy wrote:

Thats semantic silliness. If someone has preprogrammed the outcome, then it is impossible to call it free will. This would be nothing more than a puppet show. free will means that you have a choice, predetermined outcome is not free choice.

The issue here is that God is outside of time and all other physical constraints and we simply cannot wrap our minds around this. So I agree that God cannot know what we will choose (do to free will) but he could know the outcome as he is "beyond" time. Everytime I get to this point my brain goes "tilt"

Interesting link for EVERYONE that is interested in the subject of God and a purpose for the universe:

http://www.templeton.org/questions/purpose/[/b]

[geomon]

Fozzy...looks like your son leaves tomorrow for Iraq. I wish him a safe deployment and thank him from all of us for his service.

[Fozzy]

Fozzy...looks like your son leaves tomorrow for Iraq. I wish him a safe deployment and thank him from all of us for his service.

He is going on advance party with a few others from his group.. We just got home from Ft Campbell last night after a visit and to pick up all of his worldly goods..

[Trukrswyfe]

Fozzy,

Thank you, and your son. My entire family thanks you.

[Slimland]

So lets go off this free-will, If we have free will, why is our out come already known? Who can go against His will? This brings into mind the potter and the clay, who are we to ask!

We have our free will to act as we may. God does not interfere in that, but He already knows what our decisions are going be. That is not pre-destination because we don't know how we will act and we have our free will to choose. God, being God, simply knows what those decisions are going to be, even though we haven't made them yet.

Thats semantic silliness. If someone has preprogrammed the outcome, then it is impossible to call it free will. This would be nothing more than a puppet show. free will means that you have a choice, predetermined outcome is not free choice.

I almost wan't to agree with you Fozzy-- But if its within a set of rules or laws, in which even the puppeteer follows. then it would be free will..
I have used this anolagy befor. Lets say Adam and Eve, "which I know you dont agree with but it is for the sake of argument" anyway adam and eve-- Having the law but not knowing it, cannot be held accountable, God knowing the outcome of them, but wishing for the best.. So they adam and eve faulter and sin. and as life goes on and on. we find God upset and wishing He would have never mad man. This is around the flood. God was upset --and wished He would have never made man??? Because their thought where continualy evil, -- not on Him. He is allowing man to make the freewill choice. and He being God also made a freewill choice and showed Himself to man again by the flood..It sounds drastic--but we as parents are we any less in some instances?Maybe--

Forgive me I am thinking this while typing it, I understand it, but it is hard to put in words.

The issue here is that God is outside of time and all other physical constraints and we simply cannot wrap our minds around this. So I agree that God cannot know what we will choose (do to free will) but he could know the outcome as he is "beyond" time. Everytime I get to this point my brain goes "tilt" Laughing

I believe Geoman said the above

If God outsteps time, then He can see into the futur of time. He would know what we choose, just wishes we choose the other . And makes and takes every opertunity, for us to choose that which is best. If we do not that is our choice. That is free-will.. The only thing that is hard for me to grasp is why all the hoopla? Is it because those laws which govern the univers are those same laws which govern our hearts. A balance of good and evil? a posotive and a negative. a choice of free-will? Solomon in all his study's said the below in my signature.

Ecclesiastes 7:15-18
15 I have seen everything in my days of vanity: There is a just man who perishes in his righteousness, And there is a wicked man who prolongs life in his wickedness.
16 Do not be overly righteous,
Nor be overly wise:
Why should you destroy yourself?
17 Do not be overly wicked,
Nor be foolish:
Why should you die before your time?
18 It is good that you grasp this,
And also not remove your hand from the other; For he who fears God will escape them all!!!

Could this be something to grasp? Could ying and yang be something the chiness have understood..?

I don't see Evil as Sin, I see Evil as another part of God, and it is something that Glorifies Him, like I have stated on many threads. We all have it in us, Romans says the Law of Sin and Death are written on our hearts. and the New Covenant is just about the same, without all the ristrictions, for it is the Law of Love. between the 2 we have still the same choice to believe or not. That part of the Law has not changed and it has been there since the beginning, that is why I say that God cannot deny himself..

Let me ramble and maybe just maybe I will put myself in a corner, and Golf Hobo will come to save the day, and set me straight
I need a good debate and teaching, and so far He considering the subject seems to be the only one who understands what I am saying. other than Redeemed who no longer comes here!

I am not saying I am right, It is just the way I think. and I have been doing alot of thinking latley..

Fozzy you said. that god is mans worse creation..
But you kinda are like a diest right?? Therfor doesn't a diest believ in a creator, or like the hindu's they believed in a creator.. My question -- is that your creation of a diety?

I understand exactly what you are saying, and can sympothize with it, and in some ways agree with it. That is funny to me.. Becuase when I first came here, I was hellfire and brimstone.. But you and some others made me think, and the more I searched the scriptures of the Word of God, the more I think I understand Him. tho this is My Opinion. and if anything it strienghtened my faith in Him. But I still have a lot to learn, for when I think I have reached a little understanding, I find out I have learned nothing.
But the subject at hand has always stayed with me. I see no way around it!

I stated earlier that I get mad at God.. Let me xplain-- I get mad for letting me have the free will to choose! I don't want to choose, though I know what I choose, I still would rather not.. I get mad for things that I have chossen for myself, which in turn affects those around me. Why does this have to be soo? Why cant God who is all, fix that which is broken? Maybe I am not the one who needs to be in this discussion, I just miss it! I have learned soo much from all of y'all, and yes including you..

My thoughts and prayers go out to your son!

Slimland

[geomon]

Slim...I have been on the science/pragmatic/agnostic side for most of my life so these philosophical questions you raise open that other side and make me think as well. It's all good in the path I am not walking down

Here's a question: How can we know "good" without "evil" to compare it against. Going further...can God be infinitely good without something infinitely evil to contrast with? Or could God not create something as infinitely evil as He is good? Dang, here I go again....<tilt>...
That is the yin/yang part that has bounced arond inside my head for a while.

An example I once read on free will is that if you give your daughter $10 and then tell her what she can and can't buy with it....did you really give it to her in the first place? That is an analogy of God and free will....if he is back there pulling on our marionette strings...then we are really not free and God is merely forcing His will on us. Not at all what He intended for us.

I think we are bound by two basic laws during our time on this side of the curtain and God has chosen not to step in and control those (unless one accepts miracles). The first are natural laws (physics-nature etc) which produce famines, diseases, tsunamis etc and the good along with the bad suffer. The second is the excercise of free will and that can cause bad things to happen to good people along with good things happening to bad people.

[Slimland]

Slim...I have been on the science/pragmatic/agnostic side for most of my life so these philosophical questions you raise open that other side and make me think as well. It's all good in the path I am not walking down

Here's a question: How can we know "good" without "evil" to compare it against. Going further...can God be infinitely good without something infinitely evil to contrast with? Or could God not create something as infinitely evil as He is good? Dang, here I go again....<tilt>...
That is the yin/yang part that has bounced arond inside my head for a while.

An example I once read on free will is that if you give your daughter $10 and then tell her what she can and can't buy with it....did you really give it to her in the first place? That is an analogy of God and free will....if he is back there pulling on our marionette strings...then we are really not free and God is merely forcing His will on us. Not at all what He intended for us.

I think we are bound by two basic laws during our time on this side of the curtain and God has chosen not to step in and control those (unless one accepts miracles). The first are natural laws (physics-nature etc) which produce famines, diseases, tsunamis etc and the good along with the bad suffer. The second is the excercise of free will and that can cause bad things to happen to good people along with good things happening to bad people.

My answer on this is My Opinion--

Comparing Good with Evil..

Good being to acknolege and believe in God, Evil the Temtation to do the opposit. The Sin is the fall to Temtation..
So Evil-- is not necessary-well evil.. but it is the knowlege of choice. :? Tilting with you

God being infinitly good,, this one IMOP is easy-- Good again is to Acknolege God, so God Acknoleges Himself. And has the Ability to not acknolege Himself, Jesus was Temted but without Sin. I think Sin is to go against Gods Word, the temtation is there. Sin is the Unbelief or to go against. IMOP why would God not believe in Himself. But He has the choice also. Otherwise He wouldn't have been temted by Lucifer. Thus He could creat Evil-- A choice a Law--But without Sin.. Don't mix Sin ie "Unbelief" with Evil ie-- a choice to believe or not.. if we where to look at it in this percspective..
It is kinda like creation going against itself.. We have the choice to go against creation, where as no other being does.. They follow the Law to the letter. We and Angels have the choice to believe or not..

But if that daughter buys what she will, without her dads aproval, that is free-will. Whether or not she listen's to dad.. See.. Will there be consiquence? Yep probably, but she can do it..
Just like your last statment-- Laws of Nature-- a positive and a negative-- a good and a evil. the fruit is the outcome of the choice.

I am not saying I understand it either, but this is as close as I came too..

Slimland

[Slimland]

One more thing I forgot, Trukrswyfe thankyou for your prayers..!

[ibamars]

Fairy tale!!!!

More thoughts!!!

I will leave it at that. I do not want to offend the religious nuts here.

Sorry all

[Slimland]

Fairy tale!!!!

More thoughts!!!

I will leave it at that. I do not want to offend the religious nuts here.

Sorry all

Fairy tale!! I take no offense, you have every right to express your view.

[tootie04]

Yes and proud of it.
I'm the one who prays when the truck pulls out the driveway.
And I'm the one giving Thanks to God For His Amazing Grace when that truck pulls in safely from yet another run.
I am the four wheeler on the road with you praying God keep you from any harm. That God will get Grandma out of the hammer lane. And when your slightly over weight the chicken shack is closed. I am the child protected by God when a drunk truck driver ran me off the road and almost killed me. I am Thankful to a God who didn't make me hate all truckers because of it. And I am a trucker's wife with 3 kids sitting home in comfort knowing that my God answered my prayer and is protecting my trucker.
It's hard for me to understand how anybody could get behind the wheel of one of those monsters and not believe in God and seek His protection.
Ride with God And He'll ride with you. Littlesister

AMEN!!