24 and 48 caught CHEATING at Sonoma

Both Jeff Gordon and Jimmy Johnson's cars were caught in pre practice inspection with fenders that were too wide. Nascar is refusing to allow them to practice and qualify for the race they will both start from the rear of the field. HMS has admitted to cheating on the fendes inquestion saying they thought that Nascar would not measure that area since it was not a specified area. Any guesses on the penalties here since Jr got hit with 100 points 100K and Eury got nailed for an old COT wing bracket.

[Jackrabbit379]

Ooops. Well, shoot, there went my picks. :P

[yoopr]

Not a Johnson or a Gordon Fan BUT NASCAR said the cars fit the Templates AND nothing was done Illegally But they went ahead and Penalized both of them because of a "Gray area"
BS
NASCAR with their Monopoly on Sponsors and some of these BS Penalties is gonna cost them.

[Mr. Ford95]

Iron, it's not cheating. The area in question was not specified in the rule book or templates for the COT that it had to be a certain angle, therefore they did not break any rule. They tried exploiting a flaw in the system and NASCAR didn't like that so they penalized both. Happens all the time, NASCAR will now go back and put in a rule for the front fenders, "Must be flat across the top." Do you think these teams have gotten these cars running so hard becuase they followed the rule book to the "T"?? Now, they looked for "gray areas" or stuff not specified in the rule book and exploited it. Sometimes NASCAR is ok with it, sometimes they aren't. Remember Gordon's T-Rex car he used to win the All-Star race?? It was perfectly legal but NASCAR told them to never bring the car to another race or they would penalize the team by parking them or at least 1 race and would take the car from them for good. The chassis was a new fangeled stiff as crap one that made the car stick better in the corners but if you wiped out, it was going to be like a concrete wall hitting a concrete wall at 190 mph. NASCAR didn't like the stiffness of it for safety reasons.


Penalties, maybe not quite as severe as Jr's. Jr's was messing with the rear wing which NASCAR said was a big no-no. Maybe a 3 race suspension for the crew chiefs because it was the COT and a large fine. I expect no points to be taken away since it was an opening day inspection, not something that was monkied around with during a Saturday practice session.

Remember this though Robin Pemberton and Mike Helton Have both said you ever mess with the COT at all you will be punished SEVERLY. Yes what they were doing was a gray area however HMS had 2 other cars that did get thru with no problems at all that being the 25 and 5. The feeling on other boards are bigger fines that what Junior got since the parts his team was using actually were and Nascar did admit it were older APPROVED parts that were redsigned and should have been destroyed but had been missed. However what Chad and Jeff's Crew cheif did was way beyond what Eury even thought of doing.

[Mr. Ford95]

Nobody in the garage will ever take Robin Pemberton serious, he was the biggest offender of trying to break NASCAR rules while a crew chief. That's why NASCAR hired him, nobody could outthink him when it came to breaking rules or being creative and they still rarely do beat him.

The 25 and 5 got thru because their cars are in an entirely different shop than the 24 and 48. 2 different building crews, 2 different cars.

Those deck mounts were never approved for competition on Jr's car. They were also found at Happy Hour, Eury Jr was trying to slip one by NASCAR on a rule that WAS in the book. The 24 and 48's was found in opening inspection and was not breaking an existing rule. The only thing they broke was NASCAR's unspoken rule: "Please don't try to slip one by us that is considered a gray area." Teams get busted every week with opening day inspections and only receive small monetary fines. It's when you get busted at Happy Hour or raceday that you get major penalties.

[yoopr]

what the bottom line is that every single crew chief will look at specs and rules and if something isn't mentioned in those two things they'll move into the "Grey" area and getting punished for something that's not in the books is BS.
What Jr. did WAS in the books

[Mr. Ford95]

With it being the COT, I expect a suspension but I think it's BS as you said yoop. Grey areas become better clarified and no longer grey when someone exploits a loophole. NASCAR gives you a "Fool us once, shame on you, Fool us twice will never happen again" if you find a loophole. Remember back to 2005 at Dover and "Shock-gate" with the 48 and 5. They jacked with the rear shocks and slipped it by NASCAR because it was something that was not in the rulebook. NASCAR was seriously pissed because it was mud in their face since they could not penalize either team. All they could do was say, "Shame on you for breaking the unspoken rule of do not cheat on us." Before the next race they had put in a rule for the shocks to keep it from happening again.

COT or not, teams should be allowed to look for grey areas and mess with them. It can make the racing better. It is not cheating unless there is already a rule against it.

[yoopr]

With it being the COT, I expect a suspension but I think it's BS as you said yoop. Grey areas become better clarified and no longer grey when someone exploits a loophole. NASCAR gives you a "Fool us once, shame on you, Fool us twice will never happen again" if you find a loophole. Remember back to 2005 at Dover and "Shock-gate" with the 48 and 5. They jacked with the rear shocks and slipped it by NASCAR because it was something that was not in the rulebook. NASCAR was seriously pissed because it was mud in their face since they could not penalize either team. All they could do was say, "Shame on you for breaking the unspoken rule of do not cheat on us." Before the next race they had put in a rule for the shocks to keep it from happening again.

COT or not, teams should be allowed to look for grey areas and mess with them. It can make the racing better. It is not cheating unless there is already a rule against it.

NASCAR this year is really starting to tick me off with this kind of BS-and now they're trying to defend their Monopoly with Nextel which would be a federal offense. And don't get me wrong-I HATE AT&T-I have them as my carrier.

[thebaldeagle655]

What I don't understand of this is that both crew chiefs are smart enough to find this "advantage" in the "gray" area but were stupid enough to take the cars to the inspection one after another. Had it been me, I would have talked Bush's crew chief into doing theirs first and seen what happened.

Actually I would have sent one car only into tech and if it passed taken the 2nd in, if it failed I would have corrected the problem first!! That was the stupid part to me, these crew chiefs get paid big bucks to push the gray areas to the max and get by with it far more times than not!

Oh well, this may be the first road course to have a winner from the rear of the field

[yoopr]

I know I'm beating a dead horse here but how could the cars Fail if there wasn't a rule or reg on these bumpers in the first place?

[Mr. Ford95]

Yoop, falls under their favorite special little rule that they use for everything:

Actions Detrimental to NASCAR - Parts do not conform to NASCAR specs.

While there are no specs for this, they will say that an Inspector found it outside of the box. Basically a lame excuse to penalize them. To them it does not matter that they didn't have a rule, their "rule" was by word of mouth. That is why Hendrick is so mad about it, put it in the rule book that the bodies are not to be "massaged" a certain way. Don't go, "Hey guys leave the bodies alone please." If they are going to keep teams from messing around and tinkering, then NASCAR needs a new rule. Only NASCAR themselves will build the cars for all 43 drivers each week. :evil:

Bald, that would be great to do with say, Casey Mears who is looking like won't make the Chase this year. Problem is, he would have gone last out of the Hendrick guys. They go thru inspection by points. If your up in the points, you go early. If your down at the bottom you go last.

[yoopr]

David Poole and I have been emailing each other about my Rants on NASCAR the past month. I think he's using my arguements on Sirius and then telling me why I'm wrong :P

This is my last email from him when I bitched at NASCAR lol

If it's not in the rulebook that you can't weld a grand piano to the car, does
that mean you're allowed to do it?
David Poole


Quoting bill jennings <billjennings@peoplepc.com>:

> Hi again,
> OK-now you've got a huge topic to discuss-The Gordon and Johnson situation.
> I'm NOT a Gordon and Johnson fan BUT where does NASCAR get off Penalizing
> for something that's NOT in the Books? This is BS. I've been a NASCAR fan
> since the 60's and I'm becoming totally disgusted with NASCAR's Garbage the
> Past 2 years.
> The AT&T deal is another thing but I won't get into the Monopoly thing.
>
> I think you guys are letting NASCAR slide a little too much even though they
> are your bread and butter.
> Thanks for listening to my Rant.
> Bill Jennings

I told him if their sponsor is a Grand Piano Maker go for it lmao

[mike3fan]

Personally I hope that Nascar sticks to their guns and hold these teams responsible for bringing a car to the track that is not all tricked up when it comes to the body,the current car is a joke with all the fenders and tails all jacked around and twisted,everyone complains about the racing nowdays because of the "aero push" why do you think it happens,because the teams have made the cars so areo dependent on down force from the bodies.

The COT car is gonna be aero dependent to some degree because of the speed that these cars go today,but Nascar is heading in the right direction trying to get it back into the hands of the set up men and the drivers.

All the teams knew what was expected of them,and if they weren't they should have been after the 8 car penalties were handed out.But the biggest grey area crew chief since Smokey himself got his fingers caught in the cookie jar again.

I don't want to hear about it's not in the rule book so it must mean we can change it,stop with that mentality come to the race track and beat the competition with a better set up or a better driver not a better body.

If Nascar and Goodyear develop a good tire for the COT car next year the racing can be some of the best racing we have seen in a long time,and we may have some different names running up front also.

[yoopr]

and It's not gonna be your man Junior lol

NASCAR screwed up in the beginning with COT(even though it's a good Idea).
They should have put down ALL Specs for the Car and that would be it. Any deviation would mean huge fines and Points.
NASCAR didn't do that and that's why there's problems.

Sorta like a cop walking up to you and saying that you're under arrest. You ask "what charges"? They say "We don't know but it's illegal"

[mike3fan]

and It's not gonna be your man Junior lol

NASCAR screwed up in the beginning with COT(even though it's a good Idea).
They should have put down ALL Specs for the Car and that would be it. Any deviation would mean huge fines and Points.
NASCAR didn't do that and that's why there's problems.

Sorta like a cop walking up to you and saying that you're under arrest. You ask "what charges"? They say "We don't know but it's illegal"

We'll see about JR,outta be interesting,they sort of did put down all the specs in form of a scan(don't know the technical parts) I thought they said that all the chassis are scanned and then must not be deviated from the scan,not sure if this apllies to the body,but I think they want to stay on top of the new car and for that I applaud them.

The crew chiefs are gonna have to change the way they think about running their teams,more emphasis on set ups and less on finding grey areas to exploit on the bodies and to me that can't be a bad thing.And maybe no more need for 500 people working for the super teams,I heard that Harvick has run the same COT car in all the COT races so far,to me that is very encouraging.

Can't wait to get these cars on the restrictor plate tracks should be more like a truck race with less or dare I say it no plate.

[yoopr]

I say go back to the old days-Limit the engines(no restrictor plates) and do whatever they want with the car body.
Best man wins :P

[mike3fan]

That's what the new car will do,allow the best man/crew chief win,not the best body developed over thousands of hours in the wind tunnel.

If you give the COT 2 years I bet that if will seem like the old days of racing,except for the fact that more than 3-4 cars will finish on the lead lap.

[Mr. Ford95]

The scanner is to make sure it's the proper chassis. Teams had to register all their COT's with NASCAR. If they show up with one that scans and is not in the system, more than likely the car will be taken away. I guess they are using this as an easy way to see how many sets of cars the teams are going thru.

[yoopr]

Cookie cutter fines and penalties except Hendrick and Gordon found the Double Whammy