24 and 48 caught CHEATING at Sonoma

[flood]

go back to the old days and use a real STOCK car body and not some airo thing with stickers on it so you can tell it's a ford or chev, dodge. and for that matter make it a real 2 door body and not a 4 door sedan.? the chevy's COT is an impala..! when's the last time chevy made a 2 door impala.....? and if you took the stickers off the ford fusion would you even know what the car was...

if i remember it used to be called stock car racing wasn't it

[Mr. Ford95]

After listening to David Poole this morning, time for a minor rant.

How can you even fathom sitting a driver who is not at the shop when this stuff goes on?? They already have enough crap on their plate during the week since NASCAR and sponsor's want these drivers to be so accesible that they don't have time to be at the shop M-Thursday during the work hours. The crew chief is there for that reason.

David said there was a rule, the drawing of the COT that all teams got. Ok, so what. NASCAR never wrote in the rule book to leave the bodies alone, they only did it by word of mouth. If they want this to be like F1, then as I said above, NASCAR needs to build all the bodies and if a team goes thru tech and something is out of wack, park them for the race. First though, stop the word of mouth crap and put it in black and white.

Flood, did you know your right along the lines of what a lot of the old, retired drivers think NASCAR should do?? Harry Gant talked to Helton recently and Helton asked him what he thought of the sport today. Gant spoke his mind, "You need to go back to a real stock car and put your foot down on allowing these guys to tinker on these cars. You let it get out of control in the early 90's and now your trying to reign it back in when it should never have been allowed to go this far. These cars look nothing like a stock car anymore and it's sad, this ain't racing."

To the penalty, I'm surprised Knaus didn't get a 10 race vacation for all of his previous history. I'm sure the fans will give a huge backlash at that because it appears he was the ringleader of this fender deal.

[yoopr]

Helton and Pemberton are proving themselves to not believing in anything they say.
They said that with COT the fines and penalties would increase.
Same ole same ole BS fine and penalty.
What Poole is saying is what I've been saying all along except he wusses out.
I emailed the show today and told them to stop cheating was to put a sign on the car saying "I cheated"
Just like the morons who carry a sign when they are caught shoplifting. Sponsors of the cars would love that and come down like a ton of bricks on the car owner and chiefs

[Mr. Ford95]

Yoop, did you hear the lady call in about the sponsor's deal with it?? Saying she would take her money elsewhere besides Lowes and Dupont since they are apparently kosher with it.

Well hello, they are getting a TON of free publicity and airtime albeit not the greatest way to get it, but your getting major TV time out of it. They could speak out against it in public and say it was wrong but this isn't a case of these teams getting caught every week or every other week.

This just proves that Knaus is one of the smartest men in the garage. He and his guys came up with the weird shock deal at Dover, the Daytona 500 stuff last year, this fender deal.......he was also part of the Ray Evernham T-Rex project for the car that Jeff Gordon used to smoke the field in The Winston in 97. While Nascar banned several items with that car, a few were not banned(think today's current coil binding.)

[mike3fan]

Yoop, did you hear the lady call in about the sponsor's deal with it?? Saying she would take her money elsewhere besides Lowes and Dupont since they are apparently kosher with it.

Well hello, they are getting a TON of free publicity and airtime albeit not the greatest way to get it, but your getting major TV time out of it. They could speak out against it in public and say it was wrong but this isn't a case of these teams getting caught every week or every other week.

This just proves that Knaus is one of the smartest men in the garage. He and his guys came up with the weird shock deal at Dover, the Daytona 500 stuff last year, this fender deal.......he was also part of the Ray Evernham T-Rex project for the car that Jeff Gordon used to smoke the field in The Winston in 97. While Nascar banned several items with that car, a few were not banned(think today's current coil binding.)

What make Chad so smart? cheating?
If he's so damn smart and he works for the biggest,deepest,best organized team in Nascar why does he seem intent on bringing cheated up cars to the track? can't he beat his competitors legally?

Why do people think that the racing is gonna suffer if the crew chiefs are not allowed to work in the grey areas? can't you set up the car better than the next guy or can't your driver out drive the other guy?

Just like Poole says and I can't agree with him more.Stop think that everyone is doing it and therefor I must do it also,bring a legal car and beat everyone straight up.

The penalty is more than what the 8 car got because they were not allowed to pratice and qualify.

A question was asked on the show yesterday by Patterson if the race is close and exciting and provides 3+ hours of entertainment,what do we care how it gets there? If Nascar provides the whole damn car the day the teams show up on the weekend to race and the teams take it from there and put on a great show who cares? I realize this is a bit extreme but in the end does it really matter? I watch the races for the race,drivers and entertainment.

Everyone who calls in to the shows has all the answers and one of the things that come up is Nascar is ruining the sport. How? The racing is 10x better now than before,you can actually see the races on TV every weekend and for better or worse we have a glut of information about the sport and everthing involved,I can also sit in my comfy lazyboy and listen to every word that my driver says to his crew,watch telemetry,live scoring,points and if I wanted I could watch the whole dang race from his car.. I admit Nascar pisses me off on occasion but in the overall big picture of things I think they do a pretty damn good job. Seems to me we have it pretty good,anyone remember when we got about 15 min of coverage on Wide World of Sports.

[yoopr]

I didn't catch her call Ford
Again, Money fines mean Nothing to these teams-Points mean a little bit but Sponsors wouldn't stand for a car that has "I cheated" on it and nothing would hurt a team worse than Embarassment over money and points.

[Part Time Dweller]

NASCAR never wrote in the rule book to leave the bodies alone, they only did it by word of mouth.

First though, stop the word of mouth crap and put it in black and white.

Looks black and white to me;

Sections 12-4-A (actions detrimental to stock car racing); 12-4-Q (car, car parts, components and/or equipment used do not conform to NASCAR rules); 20-2.1E (parts or components of the car not previously approved by NASCAR that have been installed or modified to enhance aerodynamic performance will not be permitted); and 20-2H (fenders may not be cut or altered except for wheel or tire clearance which must be approved by the Series Director) of the 2007 NASCAR rule book.

What part of; 20-2.1E (parts or components of the car not previously approved by NASCAR that have been installed or modified to enhance aerodynamic performance will not be permitted) is so hard to understand?

[yoopr]

That's a NASCAR Cover their Ass rule when nothing else applies

[Part Time Dweller]

That's a NASCAR Cover their Ass rule when nothing else applies

A rule which is in the 2007 rulebook, available to all the teams, including Hendrick.

Again, What part of; 20-2.1E (parts or components of the car not previously approved by NASCAR that have been installed or modified to enhance aerodynamic performance will not be permitted) is so hard to understand?
or, this one; 20-2H (fenders may not be cut or altered except for wheel or tire clearance which must be approved by the Series Director)

Doesn't really look like a CYA rule to me.


The teams were specifically told not to mess with the bodies on the COT, and from the looks of it, put it in writing. Part of the reason for the COT is to keep the big $ teams like hendrick from spending tons of money in the windtunnel looking for an aero advantage tweaking the bodies. The smaller teams can't afford that, so Nascar is evening the playing field with the don't mess with it rules. Unless you want to keep seeing Hendrick and Roush trading the dominance back and forth, this is a good thing.

[mike3fan]

That's a NASCAR Cover their Ass rule when nothing else applies

A rule which is in the 2007 rulebook, available to all the teams, including Hendrick.

Again, What part of; 20-2.1E (parts or components of the car not previously approved by NASCAR that have been installed or modified to enhance aerodynamic performance will not be permitted) is so hard to understand?
or, this one; 20-2H (fenders may not be cut or altered except for wheel or tire clearance which must be approved by the Series Director)

Doesn't really look like a CYA rule to me.


The teams were specifically told not to mess with the bodies on the COT, and from the looks of it, put it in writing. Part of the reason for the COT is to keep the big $ teams like hendrick from spending tons of money in the windtunnel looking for an aero advantage tweaking the bodies. The smaller teams can't afford that, so Nascar is evening the playing field with the don't mess with it rules. Unless you want to keep seeing Hendrick and Roush trading the dominance back and forth, this is a good thing.

I totally agree,Nascar specifically told the teams not to mess with this car especially the body,bring a legal car and you will not have any problems.

I love how Nascar is always the bad guy,how did that happen?
When will the team owners take the repeat offender crew chiefs to task?

I heard that Hedrick sent a memo that any future fines will come out of the offending persons pocket,thats a good start.

[yoopr]

I heard that Hedrick sent a memo that any future fines will come out of the offending persons pocket,thats a good start.


That surprises me that he's paid their fines. I ASSUMED that the offender paid it. Gordon will have to pay for it out of his own pocket though seeing he's the Team owner.

[Part Time Dweller]

http://www.thatsracin.com/247/story/5121.html

NASCAR Nextel Cup Series director John Darby said penalties levied against Hendrick Motorsports on Tuesday are aimed at removing any lingering doubt that the car of tomorrow is not to be monkeyed with.

“If there’s any doubt in anybody’s minds about messing with the bodies on this cars, we’re going to continue to react until there no longer is,” Darby said.

Darby said the sanctions against Gordon and Johnson and their teams are actually greater than those levied in the Earnhardt Jr. incident because Gordon and Johnson were prohibited from practicing and qualifying on Friday and had to start at the rear of the field in Sunday’s Toyota Save Mart 350. Gordon finished seventh, Johnson finished 17th.

Darby said that the fenders on the two cars were wider than allowed under inspection rules for the car of tomorrow being phased into the Nextel Cup Series this year. The teams contend they merely worked in “gray areas” between points where the templates used in inspection touch the car. But Darby said no such leeway exists with the new car.

“If this modification had been done at Michigan it would have different,” Darby said. “That was the old car and the old way of doing business. If a team had modified the fender in the same area and got too excessive with it, they would have been told to go back to the garage and fix it and there would have been no real harm nor foul.

“But in all of the specifications of the new car, the heights, widths and lengths of everything, the teams have all of those. And they have been told not to go outside of those beyond the tolerances in the templates, which is in most areas an eighth of an inch.”

Darby said the 24 and 48 were “easily more than 1 inch outside the tolerances in total width.”

[yoopr]

It was just an Honest mistake
Bwahahhahah

[Rockjockey]

Seems to me that the on track penalty should have sufficed, as the COT is coming in on a limited race schedule to give teams a chance to adjust to the new car. Darby said just what Hendrick said, that usually there is no harm, no foul with that infraction. The on track penalty would have been the fair way to handle the first offense in the learning process. Of course, that would have made NASCAR look bad to the conspiracy theorists and #8 fans, so that did not happen.

[Mr. Ford95]

The good ol' "Actions detrimental to NASCAR rule" was brought by NASCAR just like I said it would be. It can be applied to any and all incident's by it's wording. Ah ha, a "gray area" right there. What you do may be considered detrimental and it may not be.

Part Time, yoop was right with NASCAR just covering their rears on that rule. How do you know that the bump in the fender wasn't for tire clearance?? Have you not seen these front fenders putting off smoke on the COT's?? The tires are not getting a lot of clearance as it is.

Mike, Chad is smart for scheming this stuff up. It's not cheating unless you live in a Politcally Correct world. Forget David Poole and his sour grapes for a minute. This WAS an innovation unlike what Poole said. Chad came up with a way to help get front downforce on the car to help it turn better. He helped build the T-Rex car. That car had so much downforce it was impossible to make it tight or develop an aero push. But I guess that wasn't innovation, it was cheating because NASCAR told them to never bring the car back to the track again.

I'm moving on with this because it's not like the teams will be without their crew chief for the next 6 weeks. With all of today's technology, Chad and Steve are just an IM or Text message away. They will still be in communication during the race in some way. "Fatback" proved how easy it was when he was sick 2 years ago and could not make the race at Fontana. He used his Nextel, Internet, TV and Radio to talk with the team and stay up to date on what the car was doing.

[yoopr]

Agreed-they should take away their Nextel Phones for Six weeks :P

[Mr. Ford95]

Don't forget their internet connection :wink: Also need to post armed security at every entrance at the next 6 tracks with photo's of Steve and Chad to make sure they haven't bought a ticket to the race. If they have and they have a scanner/radio, have to take it away from them.

They could so easily sit in the stands with a scanner headset on and be on another frequency and talking with the guys on pit road.

In other news, how about Musgrave's 1 race suspension for something not nearly as dangerous as what Kurt Busch did?? I know it was a penalty given by a whole 'nother group of officials(Truck Series officials) but man that must burn Musgrave up. Busch put crew members in danger while Musgrave did not yet he gets a worse penalty. That $10K hurts since the Truck Series doesn't dole out much prize money unless you win.

[mike3fan]

Mike, Chad is smart for scheming this stuff up. It's not cheating unless you live in a Politcally Correct world. Forget David Poole and his sour grapes for a minute. This WAS an innovation unlike what Poole said. Chad came up with a way to help get front downforce on the car to help it turn better. He helped build the T-Rex car. That car had so much downforce it was impossible to make it tight or develop an aero push. But I guess that wasn't innovation, it was cheating because NASCAR told them to never bring the car back to the track again.

So whats the difference between cheating and innovation?

In your words Chad found an innovative way to reshape the front fender to help downforce,I say he did something to a fender that wasn't allowed and it was(apparently) clearly told to the teams to not mess with the bodies in any way.I should clarify that I have no way of knowing if they were told in meetings or in a written statement,but from everything I heard Darby saying this week is that they(Nascar) made it clear that the bodies were not to altered beyond tolerences of normal human fabricating.

I just think that it is time to start thinking a little different about this sport,the old rules are not gonna apply anymore so learn to bring a straight car and learn how to set it up better than anyone else.If that is PC then so be it,I for one think that eventually it will make the racing better.

[Mr. Ford95]

It's all in how you look at it mike, that is the difference. I'm into being creative and innovative.

[Mr. Ford95]

Imagine that, Steve Letarte is at the track, or was at it as of last night. He helped the team get a final setup put together for today's race.

Hey mike, dunno know if you got to see it or are out driving but on Speed's RaceDay show they interviewed a couple of teams about the cheating stuff. All said the same thing, doesn't bother them because they all try to find something to help them that may not be considered illegal. The Wood Brothers said that the new car is going to cause the teams to push for new concepts that might fall into a gray area. They would rather have workers thinking outside of the box than trying to be legal 100%. Dale Inman, former Richard Petty crew chief and current employee of Petty Enterprises said that it is harder to be legal these days with the COT than to be illegal and he did not like that. Said NASCAR needs to still have innovative minds to keep growing and getting better.