New Medical Requirements

[Myth_Buster]

As I said before the concept of limiting who can give a medical exam will gain nothing except raise the cost of the exam.

I disagree, it will help ensure physicians are aware of the requirements and make it possible to disqualify physicians that don’t follow the rule.

This like most other concepts produced by FMCSA seem to be produced by people that have no idea of the real world. They live in a world created by themselves.

No the rule is based on a wider spectrum of exposure to circumstances where physicians have qualified drivers who should have not been qualified.

You like most of the federal employee believe once the rule is written that ends it. Everyone will follow the rules and no one can find away around these rules. If someone wants to beat the system there are people who know how to do it. Just a few weeks ago a good example was shown on this forum. A known drug uses another person to supply the sample. Sure it's illegal but so what. These type of people could care less. It is like a lock. Locks are made to keep honest people honest.

If people manipulate the system and get caught then the increase in standardizing the rule will allow physicians to be penalized, disqualified, or jailed as the situation warrants. Other factors as the medicals being tied to the CDL will have provisions for drivers to be disqualified from having a CDL when they cannot meet the minimum medical standards.

As the result of drivers who tested positive failing to report the activity and carriers failing to properly investigate driver’s employment history there are four enforcement cases pending. Loop holes are being closed and avenues of escape are closing.

The data is there if a person decides to pursue the investigation.

An example is the "The Large Truck* Crash Causation Study (LTCCS)" what did we learn? Most crashes are caused by the auto not the large truck. Big deal. Drivers have been saying this for years. The question really is what has DOT done to improve this? Nothing. More than likely FMCSA will create additional rules and regulations that doesn't address the real problem. But, the feel good bunch at FMCSA says "boy didn't we do good".

That’s one group’s opinion. Others want to look more closely at defensive driving and speed management. The other philosophies maybe why some are pushing for limiting truck speed.

Same can be said about the hours of service. The good guys are still doing good and the bad guys are still doing their thing. FMCSA says yep "we did a great job". FMCSA - NO CLUE plain and simple.

As long as paper logs are around people will falsify their log to get to where they’re going. Carriers that adopt the I won’t ask mentality and fail to control their HOS are facing stiffer penalties. Other factors such as higher insurance premiums for less than satisfactory safety ratings are causing motor carriers to change their method of operation.

Another example. Driver gets a failure on their drug screen. DOT says the have to go to counselor. Does DOT know if the driver attended? NO. Is there a way to determine this. DOT says yes. Reality - NO. There is no system in place to verify this was done.

The FMCSA has a driver database where a driver can be pulled up using their driver’s license number, last name, first and last name. Once the driver is found every roadside inspection the driver had is available. The roadside inspection list the motor carrier/s that employed the driver. Simple matter of finding the most recent employer by contacting employers who employed the driver after the positive test.

May take 20 minutes of phone calls.

As mentioned three drivers were recently investigated based on data collected during a compliance review. The investigation is on-going with one driver case for falsifying an application and two carrier cases for failing to properly investigate a driver’s background.

And even if the employer does in fact determine driver went to see the counselor many companies never follow up to see that the driver did the required random test required by the rules. Once again the system fails to perform what FMCSA claims it does. But, FMCSA says - "we did a great job". The rules are one thing reality is another.

If the driver took the required follow-up drug test the driver has the chain of custody control forms to prove the tests were taken. Didn’t keep the form? The clinic you took the test has records. It depends on the level of investigation. It may take a week or three, but the facts are available.

You show one example of where a driver got caught and I'm sure you can cite others but for everyone you can cite I can show you 10 that doesn't get caught.

Are you willing to risk a week to a months worth of pay to gamble? Two drivers were penalized $2,800 for running OOS orders for HOS. The carrier paid as well. To quote Clint, “Feeling lucky?”

Things happen; I feel comfortable with my corner of the world and feel I’m doing the job I was hired to do.

Just like the HOS. A few get caught but hundreds still bend/break the rules. FMCSA latest concept EOBR. It didn't work in the 50's and 60's and it's not going to work now.

Technology has grown by leaps and bounds, we are way past tachographs. The drivers in Europe still use them and praise them as being unbeatable. If the systems perform the way they are designed any modification will show a edit. Eventually someone will build a machine to beat the computer then the wheel will have to be reinvented.

I could go on and on. You like every other FMCSA and the larger DOT live in a world of their own with no concept of what the world is real like.

The world does not revolve around trucking. While drivers and carriers want things their way that isn’t always possible because of other issues. Driver’s real world is unique to their job, don’t confuse your world as being the whole world.

You can cite rules and regulations to your heart's content and I'm sure you will continue. DOT will continue to create more rules and regulations that do the same but make them feel good. Every time new rules are written someone will find a away to break them. So continue in your little world.

When carriers or drivers are discovered to be breaking the rules they will have to pay, some more severely than others. Rules and regulations are in place for a reason, the government is reactionary not proactive. Every rule on the book is there because someone was hurt, killed, or lost money or rights. You can break the rules until your heart’s content; however, it only takes once and you’re caught.

Be safe.

[kc0iv]

[quote="Myth_Buster"]

Quote:
As I said before the concept of limiting who can give a medical exam will gain nothing except raise the cost of the exam.

I disagree, it will help ensure physicians are aware of the requirements and make it possible to disqualify physicians that don’t follow the rule.

Explain to me how a doctor that has no knowledge and no history knows more than your personal physician?

Quote:
This like most other concepts produced by FMCSA seem to be produced by people that have no idea of the real world. They live in a world created by themselves.

No the rule is based on a wider spectrum of exposure to circumstances where physicians have qualified drivers who should have not been qualified.

At the expense of allowing more through because the physician doesn't know the driver.

Quote:
You like most of the federal employee believe once the rule is written that ends it. Everyone will follow the rules and no one can find away around these rules. If someone wants to beat the system there are people who know how to do it. Just a few weeks ago a good example was shown on this forum. A known drug uses another person to supply the sample. Sure it's illegal but so what. These type of people could care less. It is like a lock. Locks are made to keep honest people honest.

If people manipulate the system and get caught then the increase in standardizing the rule will allow physicians to be penalized, disqualified, or jailed as the situation warrants. Other factors as the medicals being tied to the CDL will have provisions for drivers to be disqualified from having a CDL when they cannot meet the minimum medical standards.

As the result of drivers who tested positive failing to report the activity and carriers failing to properly investigate driver’s employment history there are four enforcement cases pending. Loop holes are being closed and avenues of escape are closing.

The data is there if a person decides to pursue the investigation.

Existing laws already provided a way to disqualified a driver that don't meet minimum medical standards.

So you got four cases big deal. Out of how many hundred (maybe thousand) that are not caught? There is NO way the feds can inspect all the trucking firms and all their drivers. They simple don't have the man power.

As I have said you live in a your own world.

Quote:
An example is the "The Large Truck* Crash Causation Study (LTCCS)" what did we learn? Most crashes are caused by the auto not the large truck. Big deal. Drivers have been saying this for years. The question really is what has DOT done to improve this? Nothing. More than likely FMCSA will create additional rules and regulations that doesn't address the real problem. But, the feel good bunch at FMCSA says "boy didn't we do good".

That’s one group’s opinion. Others want to look more closely at defensive driving and speed management. The other philosophies maybe why some are pushing for limiting truck speed.

Look at the LTCCS and the other studies in all these studies the facts says big trucks are not the cause of most of these crashes. So why not address the cause? Reduce the major causes. What DOT doesn't address. How many laws have been written that address the major causes of these crashes? You look at 15% and skip the 85%. Not having the figures in front of me I think it would be a safe bet that more crashes (non truck involement) are cause by drugs and alcohol than all the truck crashes conbined.

If you are old enough you will recall they tried slowing ALL vehicles and it failed. Now this same mindset wants to create a worse condition by reducing truck speeds creating a wider speed spread between trucks and auto.

Quote:
Same can be said about the hours of service. The good guys are still doing good and the bad guys are still doing their thing. FMCSA says yep "we did a great job". FMCSA - NO CLUE plain and simple.

As long as paper logs are around people will falsify their log to get to where they’re going. Carriers that adopt the I won’t ask mentality and fail to control their HOS are facing stiffer penalties. Other factors such as higher insurance premiums for less than satisfactory safety ratings are causing motor carriers to change their method of operation.

As another driver said electronic logging can be beat. And I am sure if it becomes a law better ways will be found to beat it. What it will do is reduce the total amount of freight which will increase cost.

Increasing fines won't help. Nor will safety ratings. I am sure you think they will but once a large group have their safety lowered insurance companies will insure them because they have to maintain the business.

But once again your mind-set wants to create rules and not address the real problems of why drivers do what they do. You didn't do it with the present rules nor the rules before them.

Quote:
Another example. Driver gets a failure on their drug screen. DOT says the have to go to counselor. Does DOT know if the driver attended? NO. Is there a way to determine this. DOT says yes. Reality - NO. There is no system in place to verify this was done.

The FMCSA has a driver database where a driver can be pulled up using their driver’s license number, last name, first and last name. Once the driver is found every roadside inspection the driver had is available. The roadside inspection list the motor carrier/s that employed the driver. Simple matter of finding the most recent employer by contacting employers who employed the driver after the positive test.

May take 20 minutes of phone calls.

As mentioned three drivers were recently investigated based on data collected during a compliance review. The investigation is on-going with one driver case for falsifying an application and two carrier cases for failing to properly investigate a driver’s background.

Give us a break. How many roadside inspections do you think are done? The number I find is less than 30% are inspected. And the data shows an decrease of about 1% improvement. Of those only about 6% was bad enough to put the driver OOS.

Once again looking in the wrong place.

Quote:
And even if the employer does in fact determine driver went to see the counselor many companies never follow up to see that the driver did the required random test required by the rules. Once again the system fails to perform what FMCSA claims it does. But, FMCSA says - "we did a great job". The rules are one thing reality is another.

If the driver took the required follow-up drug test the driver has the chain of custody control forms to prove the tests were taken. Didn’t keep the form? The clinic you took the test has records. It depends on the level of investigation. It may take a week or three, but the facts are available.

Living in your own world again. Yes IF everyone in that chain are good little boys and does what the rules tell them to do. I'll give you an example. Driver does not list a employer he/she says he/she was unemployed or self-employed during the time the failed drug was found. New employer does a good background check. Driver has signed documents that show he/she was unemployed or self-employed. So the new employer is not aware of the past failed drug test. You tell me how the great DOT can find the offence? Sure it can be done but DOT isn't going to the level it would require. Now added to this the hundreds of wildcat companies that exist that work around these rules everyday. That is the real world.

Quote:
You show one example of where a driver got caught and I'm sure you can cite others but for everyone you can cite I can show you 10 that doesn't get caught.

Are you willing to risk a week to a months worth of pay to gamble? Two drivers were penalized $2,800 for running OOS orders for HOS. The carrier paid as well. To quote Clint, “Feeling lucky?”

Things happen; I feel comfortable with my corner of the world and feel I’m doing the job I was hired to do.

Drivers break the law everyday. And as I showed only about 6% are caught. Out of those I doubt even 1% are fined. I know one company that was fined if I recall $5,000 and his DOT number was revoked. The driver was fined if I recall correctly $1,000. Has either the company or the driver out of business? Nope. Company change its name and got a new DOT number using different names on the application. Driver lost less than a weeks pay and could have been working that same day. Company lost nothing had another cover the loads. Which second company paid the first company. Only the cost of getting a new number. BTW the company changed nothing in their way of doing business. Still busting the laws. If he is caught again he will do the same thing again.

Quote:
Just like the HOS. A few get caught but hundreds still bend/break the rules. FMCSA latest concept EOBR. It didn't work in the 50's and 60's and it's not going to work now.

Technology has grown by leaps and bounds, we are way past tachographs. The drivers in Europe still use them and praise them as being unbeatable. If the systems perform the way they are designed any modification will show a edit. Eventually someone will build a machine to beat the computer then the wheel will have to be reinvented.

Breifly reading the UK laws for tachographs I can see how easy they can be beat. Be it the old analog units or the new electronic units. The old system and I quote "if drivers are using vehicles equipped with analogue tachographs employers should ensure that each driver has enough record charts for the journey at least 1 for every 24 hour period plus some spares, say 33-50% spares. Same thing we had 40 years ago. For electronic systems "employers should ensure that each driver has a valid driver card." In another section the talk about this card. It is like a credit card. And as everyone knows credit cards can't be copied. Yes they have to have a picture of the driver just like we require on our driver's license. We all know driver's licenses pictures can't be copied.

One other point that must be added. Most drivers in Europe are paid by the hour. Like many US drivers that have unions there isn't much to be gained to breaking the rules.

Quote:
I could go on and on. You like every other FMCSA and the larger DOT live in a world of their own with no concept of what the world is real like.

The world does not revolve around trucking. While drivers and carriers want things their way that isn’t always possible because of other issues. Driver’s real world is unique to their job, don’t confuse your world as being the whole world.

Really? Just how many days do you think the USA can operated without drivers and carriers? Rail systems sure can't handle the freight and the requirements put on them by shippers. Nor are the rails in a condition to handle the level of freight that would be required. And they wouldn't be able to handle such freight for maybe 10 years if even then. Just in my area BSNF is trying to add about 5 miles of additional track and the city has tried about everything they can try to stop this addition. BTW the railroad already owns the right-away.

Why do you think there is a shortage of drivers?

Quote:
You can cite rules and regulations to your heart's content and I'm sure you will continue. DOT will continue to create more rules and regulations that do the same but make them feel good. Every time new rules are written someone will find a away to break them. So continue in your little world.

When carriers or drivers are discovered to be breaking the rules they will have to pay, some more severely than others. Rules and regulations are in place for a reason, the government is reactionary not proactive. Every rule on the book is there because someone was hurt, killed, or lost money or rights. You can break the rules until your heart’s content; however, it only takes once and you’re caught.

Be safe.

As I showed above fines for some is just the cost of doing business.

The problem with DOT they have elected to listen to special interest groups. You claim they are reactionary yet they have faild the address the major causes of crashes. WHY? They look at the 15% and not the 85%. They look at HOS yet failed the address the real problems. Such things as drivers be required to load and unload freight and not enough parking to name just two. Or maybe you want to look at unreal driving times.

You claim DOT wants safe driving yet they have failed time after time. How many drivers lost their life because the tire industry and the DOT refuse to review a bad design?

DOT has a long ways to go. Yes they will write more rules. Generate more studies that will gain little or nothing. Pat themselves on the back and say how good they do.

I can assure you I won't get caught. I'm retired have been for over a year.

Have a great day.

kc0iv

[Myth_Buster]

Explain to me how a doctor that has no knowledge and no history knows more than your personal physician?

Personal physicians are reluctant to disqualify a person they know. Physicians have qualified drivers with monocular vision, diabetes, hearing problems. Physicians have passed drivers with less than 20/40 in each eye and told the driver to get new glasses.

The DOT approved and sanctioned physicians will tighten loop holes as physicians will be disqualified for qualifying drivers who don’t meet the minimum standards.

At the expense of allowing more through because the physician doesn't know the driver.

That’s your opinion; many school bus drivers have to be examined by a state approved physician annually. The school bus driver program works.

Existing laws already provided a way to disqualified a driver that don't meet minimum medical standards.

Too many caught after the fact; the program is being designed to be proactive by stopping the problem before the disqualified driver drives.

So you got four cases big deal. Out of how many hundred (maybe thousand) that are not caught? There is NO way the feds can inspect all the trucking firms and all their drivers. They simple don't have the man power.

As carriers learn the consequences fewer carriers will gamble.

As I have said you live in a your own world.

Conducting at least 36 compliance reviews a year and 32 roadside inspections. Carriers learn the hard way there are too many factors that prevent hiding the violations.

As another driver said electronic logging can be beat. And I am sure if it becomes a law better ways will be found to beat it. What it will do is reduce the total amount of freight which will increase cost.

Stranger said:

I drove for a company that had on board satellite monitored electronic logging. I could still manipulate the log if I wanted to. Not a lot, but enough so that when I needed a little extra time to get back to the terminal, I could.

Currently some drivers flagrantly falsify their log by dropping trips or backing up their logs 10 or 12 hours to allow a 10 hour break sometime in the future. The electronic on board recorder will stop the blatant falsification.

Increasing fines won't help. Nor will safety ratings. I am sure you think they will but once a large group have their safety lowered insurance companies will insure them because they have to maintain the business.

Carriers face penalties from $2,500 over $100,000 I’m not sure I agree with your reasoning. Safety ratings affect insurance and client base. Well established carriers have lost clients when their safety rating dipped below satisfactory. The shippers who pay better demand satisfactory ratings.

Insurance companies often use data collected by the FMCSA to base their client’s premiums. Insurance is probably the third largest cost behind vehicles and fuel. Prior to 09/11 there were four underwriters that underwrote every trucking company in the US. After 9/11 there were three. Insurance companies have no problem finding clients. Without insurance carriers cannot operate.

But once again your mind-set wants to create rules and not address the real problems of why drivers do what they do. You didn't do it with the present rules nor the rules before them.

Drivers do what they do due to the inability to investigate and find work to support their life style.

Give us a break. How many roadside inspections do you think are done? The number I find is less than 30% are inspected. And the data shows an decrease of about 1% improvement. Of those only about 6% was bad enough to put the driver OOS.

Drivers don’t have to be placed OOS, the roadside inspection or traffic stop is used as a pointer to find the driver.

Once again looking in the wrong place.

If you say so; however, three of four drivers who tested positive for carrier ABC in 2005 were discovered. I’d say a 75% success rate was pretty good.

Living in your own world again. Yes IF everyone in that chain are good little boys and does what the rules tell them to do. I'll give you an example. Driver does not list a employer he/she says he/she was unemployed or self-employed during the time the failed drug was found. New employer does a good background check. Driver has signed documents that show he/she was unemployed or self-employed. So the new employer is not aware of the past failed drug test. You tell me how the great DOT can find the offence? Sure it can be done but DOT isn't going to the level it would require. Now added to this the hundreds of wildcat companies that exist that work around these rules everyday. That is the real world.

Of the three drivers being prosecuted for driving after testing positive:

1. Part §390.35 for falsifying the application with subsequent employers.
2. Part §391.23 failing to investigate a driver’s background
3. Part §40.285 failing to obtain a SAP referral before returning to duty

You don’t get it, if the driver doesn’t have the forms to show the tests were performed the driver/carrier can be penalized for failing to retain the documents. If the driver has a positive pre-employment drug test the driver must see a SAP. The carrier where the driver tested positive has records they must keep for five years. If the records aren’t there the records are ordered for the compliance review and the carrier is still cited for failing to retain the documents.

The roadside inspection documents commerce, the positive drug test result from the previous employer or from the employer where the pre-employment drug test was taken is the violation. The lack of documentation substantiates the violation occurred.

Like I said four drivers tested positive, three drivers will be penalized and three carriers will be penalized. Three of four drivers is a 75% success rate.

Drivers break the law everyday. And as I showed only about 6% are caught. Out of those I doubt even 1% are fined. I know one company that was fined if I recall $5,000 and his DOT number was revoked. The driver was fined if I recall correctly $1,000. Has either the company or the driver out of business? Nope. Company change its name and got a new DOT number using different names on the application.

The DOT is piercing the corporate veil. When carriers change names the penalty is transferred to the new company if the investigation can substantiate the carriers are the same.

Driver lost less than a weeks pay and could have been working that same day.

Drivers are issued OOS orders and disqualified from driving CMVs. Carriers that knowingly use the driver are penalized for using a disqualified driver.

Company lost nothing had another cover the loads. Which second company paid the first company. Only the cost of getting a new number. BTW the company changed nothing in their way of doing business. Still busting the laws. If he is caught again he will do the same thing again.

You are entitled to your beliefs; however, carriers are traced from DOT number to DOT number and some either give up or lease to another carrier.

Breifly reading the UK laws for tachographs I can see how easy they can be beat. Be it the old analog units or the new electronic units. The old system and I quote "if drivers are using vehicles equipped with analogue tachographs employers should ensure that each driver has enough record charts for the journey at least 1 for every 24 hour period plus some spares, say 33-50% spares. Same thing we had 40 years ago. For electronic systems "employers should ensure that each driver has a valid driver card." In another section the talk about this card. It is like a credit card. And as everyone knows credit cards can't be copied. Yes they have to have a picture of the driver just like we require on our driver's license. We all know driver's licenses pictures can't be copied.

One other point that must be added. Most drivers in Europe are paid by the hour. Like many US drivers that have unions there isn't much to be gained to breaking the rules.

Or European drivers face stiffer actions for their illegal acts and are more willing to follow the law.

Really? Just how many days do you think the USA can operated without drivers and carriers? Rail systems sure can't handle the freight and the requirements put on them by shippers. Nor are the rails in a condition to handle the level of freight that would be required. And they wouldn't be able to handle such freight for maybe 10 years if even then. Just in my area BSNF is trying to add about 5 miles of additional track and the city has tried about everything they can try to stop this addition. BTW the railroad already owns the right-away.

Why do you think there is a shortage of drivers?

There is no driver shortage, just a shortage of employers willing to meet the conditions drivers expect to live a better life. Major carriers are modifying their operations to try and get drivers home more often. Transportation will change their method of operation to meet their customer’s demands and employ drivers.

Change is inevitable.

As I showed above fines for some is just the cost of doing business.

The DOT works on a three strikes philosophy, strike one – a small carrier may see a $2,000 penalty; strike two the penalty will be substantially more; strike three maximum penalty allowed by law. A small carrier was penalized $22,000 for having expired annual inspections on his truck and trailer. The case was the fourth case prepared against the carrier for issues regarding maintenance.

The problem with DOT they have elected to listen to special interest groups. You claim they are reactionary yet they have faild the address the major causes of crashes. WHY? They look at the 15% and not the 85%. They look at HOS yet failed the address the real problems. Such things as drivers be required to load and unload freight and not enough parking to name just two. Or maybe you want to look at unreal driving times.

The US DOT is segmented. The different agencies can only address the portions they are responsible for, i.e. FMCSA trucks and buses. Despite reports that indicate the majority of the crashes are caused by cars. The fact is crashes are caused by aggressive driving. If CDL holders would drive defensively there would be less accidents.

You claim DOT wants safe driving yet they have failed time after time. How many drivers lost their life because the tire industry and the DOT refuse to review a bad design?

What percentage of fatalities are caused by bad tire designs? Firestone had some recalls; however, the biggest problem was speed control and lack of tire maintenance.

DOT has a long ways to go. Yes they will write more rules. Generate more studies that will gain little or nothing. Pat themselves on the back and say how good they do.

I can only justify my actions. I am comfortable in my performance and amount of work I do to address highway safety.

I can assure you I won't get caught. I'm retired have been for over a year.

The discussion is carried on so drivers still employed are aware of the consequences.

Be safe.

[stranger]

QUOTE: Drivers do what they do due to the inability to investigate and find work to support their life style.



I can't believe I just read that.


Have you not read all the horror stories from drivers about most of the companies out there. Yes drivers sometimes will lie and exaggerate, but when you keep hearing the same thing over and over again, they all can't be wrong.

With company after company being bought out by bigger carriers, and many more closing the doors, the ability to find work to support a lifestyle is not so easy.

A new driver has to start somewhere, and the big companies know this. They take advantage of this by paying trainees and new drivers slave wages. How long can a family be supported at $30-$50 a day training in the truck, nothing paid while in school, and .15 to .25 per mile for six months to a year after wards.

That is the price a person all too often has to pay to get into trucking. Many drivers don't get to see home for six to eight weeks after they leave for school, and they may make $1000.00 if they are lucky in that time. This is hardly a lifestyle, it is starvation.

Why would anyone get into trucking knowing they will be subjected to slave wages and inhumane treatment? Many love trucks, or have a glorified version of trucking. Many more are forced to make such a sacrifice because all of our manufacturing jobs are being sent overseas for the sake of the price of a share of stock.

The government is getting what it wants. Before long only a few large companies will control almost all of the freight. Since there are fewer companies, they are easier to keep track of, but will conditions change for the better for the driver? NO! If anything, conditions will get worse than they are now.

There will be fewer companies, but they will have more lobbyist, who will have much more money to spread around, and the rules will be written in favor of these companies. What is $20,000.00, or $20,000,000.00 in fines to a multi-billion dollar corporation? As long as the fines are cheaper in the long run than the cost of operating legal, then so what.

Myth_Buster, I do respect your job, and if I weren't so old I would like to get into enforcement myself. I see many dangerous trucks and drivers daily that need to be addressed. Unfortunately, the majority of the enforcement personnel seem to have never been in or around a truck until they got their job, and therefore, don't have a clue of what to REALLY look for.

As an example, I was stopped at a scale house on US 1, just north of Baltimore. Imagine my surprise when I was pulled around back, and the only thing they were interested in was that I had a 53' X 102" trailer. I thought this type of trailer was allowed on all US highways, but apparently I was wrong. There were no signs that pointed out the fact I could not bring this trailer on this road. The enforcement officer said there were no signs, but I should know the laws in his state. He was right, I should have checked my motor carriers atlas. But that is not the point of this story.

He was glad to point out my error for the small sum of $620.00. After I came down off the ceiling, and narrowly avoided having a gun pulled on me and being arrested for getting a "little" excited, we came to an understanding. After he found out it was my truck, and I would have to pay the fine, it was lowered to over width only for $120.00.

We spoke some more, and the officer I was working with pulled out a Maryland code book almost 2 inches thick. He stated that he did not know half the rules in that book, he just enforced what they told him to.

Before I left, a couple more drivers were stopped for the same thing.

That was a money scam, as are many "inspections". Through the years I have encountered many such money making "inspections", and a real, blatant problem would be staring the officer right in the face. He would not see the problem, or even know what to look for, just what made the most money.

Things like this are why so many truckers have little respect for DMV officers, just as many DMV officers don't have respect for the drivers. Each side has earned the lack of respect. I have met many good officers, and my share of not so good.

The point is, bureaucrats are bureaucrats, and without current real world knowledge by the persons making the law, no laws are going to be written that will ever be in the best interest of the driver.

I have read a lot of your post. You make some good points in many, but I wonder if you sometimes have a problem seeing the forest for the trees. You seem to see things in black and white, with no gray. Trucking is not what is was 30 years ago, believe me I know. It would be good if undercover agents went into these large company schools and completed every portion of it, up to, and including six months of road driving, to see what really goes on in the world of trucking.

Once a driver is signed on the dotted line, they have far too many times sold their soul. Most are not trying to support a lifestyle, they are trying to feed their families, and their choices in companies are "bad" or "worse".

[kc0iv]

[quote="Myth_Buster"]

Personal physicians are reluctant to disqualify a person they know.

Is this bases on FACTS or this just a theory?

As carriers learn the consequences fewer carriers will gamble.

You seem to want to ignore the facts. As you know and I said before DOT does not have the manpower to police the industry.
Looking at the Compliance Reviews for 2005 there was a total of 8,097. The stats for 2004 showed a total of over 677k companies. Using these two figures shows it would take more than 84 years just to do one compliance review on each company.

Now look at roadside inspection 3M out of 230M resulting in 1.7%.

Add this to the problem if Mexican trucks are allow free roam if the USA.

So you tell us how you think fewer carriers will be caught?

Currently some drivers flagrantly falsify their log by dropping trips or backing up their logs 10 or 12 hours to allow a 10 hour break sometime in the future. The electronic on board recorder will stop the blatant falsification.

If you say so; however, three of four drivers who tested positive for carrier ABC in 2005 were discovered. I’d say a 75% success rate was pretty good.

Out of how many thousand drivers?

You don’t get it, if the driver doesn’t have the forms to show the tests were performed the driver/carrier can be penalized for failing to retain the documents. If the driver has a positive pre-employment drug test the driver must see a SAP. The carrier where the driver tested positive has records they must keep for five years. If the records aren’t there the records are ordered for the compliance review and the carrier is still cited for failing to retain the documents.

No it is you that don't get it. I showed you in my previous post just one of the ways it can be beat. You base your concept as if everyone follows the rules. Many don't. Even major carriers. Many don't want a record that shows they had/have a drug problem. They will show the driver quit or was fired for some other reason.

Like I said four drivers tested positive, three drivers will be penalized and three carriers will be penalized. Three of four drivers is a 75% success rate.

No your system failed the public. 75% is a failure. They caught 4 and 1 got away. That is a failure.

The DOT is piercing the corporate veil. When carriers change names the penalty is transferred to the new company if the investigation can substantiate the carriers are the same.

Change names and/or change city DOT doesn't know. I know for fact it happened.

Drivers are issued OOS orders and disqualified from driving CMVs. Carriers that knowingly use the driver are penalized for using a disqualified driver.

You are entitled to your beliefs; however, carriers are traced from DOT number to DOT number and some either give up or lease to another carrier.

But you have to catch them. As I said I know it happened.

There is no driver shortage, just a shortage of employers willing to meet the conditions drivers expect to live a better life. Major carriers are modifying their operations to try and get drivers home more often. Transportation will change their method of operation to meet their customer’s demands and employ drivers.

Change is inevitable.

Over three years ago a speech was made where a leading carrier said wages would have to go above $75k to retain drivers. Yet drivers are still getting about the same. Later it was reported no one wants to me the first.

Your faith in is far greater than mine. There is so many ways EOBR can be defeated I have little faith they will ever work. Sure they will keep honest people honest but thats not the idea. Just look at the current mess they are having with voting machines.

Insurance companies often use data collected by the FMCSA to base their client’s premiums.

You mean the one that says:

WARNING
Because of State data variations, FMCSA cautions those who seek to use the SafeStat data analysis system in ways not intended by FMCSA. Please be aware that use of SafeStat for purposes other than identifying and prioritizing carriers for FMCSA and state safety improvement and enforcement programs may produce unintended results and not be suitable for certain uses.

Drivers do what they do due to the inability to investigate and find work to support their life style.

stranger does a fine job of answering this one.

Drivers don’t have to be placed OOS, the roadside inspection or traffic stop is used as a pointer to find the driver.

1.7% You are right that will produce a bunch of hits.

There is no driver shortage, just a shortage of employers willing to meet the conditions drivers expect to live a better life.

That's not the CEO of J.B. Hunt says nor it what the American Trucking Associations is saying. Yes they will have to increase all parts of the industry to attract new drivers. The problem is no one wants to be the first. Token are not going to cut it.

At the same time freight is increasing which requires additional drivers.

The US DOT is segmented. The different agencies can only address the portions they are responsible for, i.e. FMCSA trucks and buses. Despite reports that indicate the majority of the crashes are caused by cars. The fact is crashes are caused by aggressive driving. If CDL holders would drive defensively there would be less accidents.

We are talking about FMCSA. All those I listed are FMCSA. There is no doubt defensive driving will improve the accident rate. However, there is just so much it can help. As I said time and time again you look at the 15% and ignore the 85%. DOT wants to fix the head being cut-off by using a bandage.

What percentage of fatalities are caused by bad tire designs? Firestone had some recalls; however, the biggest problem was speed control and lack of tire maintenance.

Some recalls? The largest recall in US history. And only then after Congress got involved.

As I have said before FMCSA is listen to special interest group they are listening the the people that know the drivers. FMCSA wants to add rules upon rules. I guess they are hoping if they write enough they can fix a broke system.

The best example I can think of is the HOS. They have written page after page of rules that only a PA lawyer can understand. I can write the whole thing in 2 rules.

1. A driver can be On Duty "X" number of hours in 24 hour period.

Once a driver shows On Duty the clock starts for "X" hours.
Show where the driver location started and where it ended.

2. After 5 days a driver must take X days off.

Two lines on the log sheet. On duty -- Off Duty.

As for such things as drugs do like Sweden does for all drivers blood test can be done by any officer.

Be safe.

kc0iv

[Myth_Buster]

stranger:

Why would anyone get into trucking knowing they will be subjected to slave wages and inhumane treatment? Many love trucks, or have a glorified version of trucking. Many more are forced to make such a sacrifice because all of our manufacturing jobs are being sent overseas for the sake of the price of a share of stock.

Drivers do what they do due to the inability to investigate and find work to support their life style.

As an example, I was stopped at a scale house on US 1, just north of Baltimore. Imagine my surprise when I was pulled around back, and the only thing they were interested in was that I had a 53' X 102" trailer. I thought this type of trailer was allowed on all US highways, but apparently I was wrong. There were no signs that pointed out the fact I could not bring this trailer on this road. The enforcement officer said there were no signs, but I should know the laws in his state. He was right, I should have checked my motor carriers atlas. But that is not the point of this story.

I disagree, if you had checked you atlas before you left the interstate then you would have known. Drviers fail to learn the history of transportation and set their self up for problems.

I can remember when 53' first came out. Utah allowed them provided the bridge was set to the same as a 48' and you called the scale for the $5.00 permit before entering the state. Didn't call? Then you received a ticket. Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

If you and your fellow truckers weren't breaking the law then the officers couldn't write tickets.

We spoke some more, and the officer I was working with pulled out a Maryland code book almost 2 inches thick. He stated that he did not know half the rules in that book, he just enforced what they told him to.

Before I left, a couple more drivers were stopped for the same thing.

Slackers are every where. People who collect money for performing a job and failing to know what their job is. My first year with Colorado I read everything, I even prepared an instruction manual for other interns to learn from. The book became my reference for size & weight, IFTA, IRP, SSRS, writting citations, collecting funds, etc. The book filled a 2" binder. I can remember a Memo from HQ asking that CDL drivers be written under the code for regular driver's licenses to avoid summons to court. I wrote a letter to HQ asking the memo be revoked due to the the different language in the codes for CDLs and regular driver's licenses. It took 8 minths, but the memo was recinded and we went back to using the cite for CDLs opposed to regular driver's licenses.

If carriers and drivers researched the routes before agreeing to use them then there would be less issues when drivers are caught on roads not designed for 53' trailers.

The point is, bureaucrats are bureaucrats, and without current real world knowledge by the persons making the law, no laws are going to be written that will ever be in the best interest of the driver.

Which driver are you refering too? The local driver that's home every night, the drivr operating within a 200 mile radius, the driver operating within a 500 mile radius, or the OTR driver?

Drivers are focused on their day to day activity and are unaware of the other aspects of transportation that have to be addressed by the regulations. Drivers also overlook the fact drivers have fallen asleep at the wheel or drove too many hours before having an accident. The 1% drive the regulations. It's not that 99% are doing OK, it's the 1% that have killed or maimed.

At one time the proposed HOS had 4 or 5 different sets of HOS for local, regional, semi-regional, and OTR. The outcry was tremendous. It would have been impossible to identify which set of rules applied to a driver who switched between the different sets of HOS.

Once a driver is signed on the dotted line, they have far too many times sold their soul. Most are not trying to support a lifestyle, they are trying to feed their families, and their choices in companies are "bad" or "worse".

Perhaps, however, all too often they are trying to support the new pick-up and full coverage insurance, boat, house, motorcycle, and what ever else. Most Americans are far beyond the basic necessities of life and are reaching to obtain toys they see on TV they cannot afford.

kc0iv

Change is inevitable, the DOT changes policies on a regular basis. The DOT doesn't need to see every motor carrier, just those who have management problms. So when a carrier has a fatal accident, is on the A or B list, or has a complaint filed the DOT is there.

The US DOT now visits EVERY carrier who applies for a US DOT number in the first 18 months of operation.

Carriers who are suspected of running OOS orders or switching US DOT number can be discovered via the driver database.

At least four times a year the FRA and FMCSA work together at the railyards around Chicago to touch base with drivers and carriers in an effort to visit carriers who run the Chicago Loop and avoid scales. Drviers' names are collected with driver's licenses numbers and carriers' US DOT number to monitor their compliance.

The world is not a perfect place, agencies are limited by budgets and do the best they can with the funds provided.

I have developed tools to reach more people and to try and ensure they are in compliance. It's amazing the affects of a phone call have to a carrier if they think the DOT is watching.

Be safe.

[yoopr]

Drivers do what they do due to the inability to investigate and find work to support their life style.

LOL-me either-Reminds me exactly of how somebody else on here used to write.

This thread is as long as reading War and Peace.

Myth_Buster is making me wonder about him(Again)
Says he gets a "Adrenalin Rush" inspecting Trucks :P
How sick is that?

[stranger]

Myth_Buster WROTE:
"I disagree, if you had checked you atlas before you left the interstate then you would have known. Drivers fail to learn the history of transportation and set their self up for problems".



Disagree with what? I said I should have checked my motor carriers atlas, and the fault was mine.

Here is my quote:

"He was right, I should have checked my motor carriers atlas. But that is not the point of this story".

And by the way Myth_Buster, in the second quote box of your last post, you quoted yourself without qualifying as such.

My point was that many, many times the inspection has nothing to do with safety, just money. There were three officers in the scale that day. None asked to see anything except my license and registration in order to write the ticket. Nothing else was checked.

I was teaming, and had been from the southeast to San Francisco and back to the northeast. They did not know that. I could have been badly out of compliance on many things. I wasn't, I was perfectly legal, but they did not know, for they never checked. All three were too busy writing $620.00 tickets for trailers that were deemed unfit on a FEDERAL highway. Remember, no signs, entrapment. Yes, I fell into their trap by not checking, but it was US 1, a FEDERAL highway.

I have seen this type of thing happen MANY times in my years of trucking. I can state some examples of money fishing that you would not believe, where OBVIOUS safety concerns were staring the officers in the face, but not even noticed, because that was not the "infraction of the day".

I have also seen Mr."By the Book". A person who knows all the rules, and can spit them out right and left, but has no common sense. "I am always right, you are always wrong" is this persons attitude. This type person is a disgrace to his profession, and is the reason many truckers have disdain for enforcement officers. This type person will nit-pick over something that is non-sense, all the while having a snotty, better than thou attitude.

The man who helped me get a start in this business said these types of people were "so smart they were ignorant". This statement has proved to be true to me many times throughout the years.

As I have said before, I have met many nice enforcement officers and highway patrolmen in my lifetime. Many were giving me a ticket, or chewing me out. The difference is that were respectful, and acted with common sense.

I shook a patrolman's hand one night and thanked him after he had chewed on me for about twenty minutes. He explained to me in detail his position on a certain offense he had stopped me about. A light clicked on in my head during the chewing. I saw his point and understood why he was upset.

That was over 20 years ago. I still remember his words when ever I am in a similar situation. I have shared that story and the officers thoughts to many people. He may have saved my life, and the lives of others that I have shared my story with.

By the way, he did not give me a ticket. He was a good enough judge of character that he realized he had gotten through to me. He voided the ticket he had started. This was a true professional. He looked at safety first. I had learned a great lesson from him, and he knew it. A ticket would not have taught me anything more than his speech did.


I am not sure what your point was when you were quoting my last post. It does seem that you don't care much for truckers, and think of them as simple minded law breakers who get what they deserve.


I think this quote said it best.

Myth_Buster said: "Perhaps, however, all too often they are trying to support the new pick-up and full coverage insurance, boat, house, motorcycle, and what ever else. Most Americans are far beyond the basic necessities of life and are reaching to obtain toys they see on TV they cannot afford."

You may live in a world with a government guaranteed job and benefits, but most people don't. In my world factories are closing right and left. Tens of thousands of jobs have been lost in my area in the past several years, with more coming.

Many people have been forced into trucking just to keep a roof over their head. Many have lost their homes, modest homes at that. Name the last place you saw a middle aged person working except as a greeter at WalMart. That is why they go into trucking. When manufacturing leaves a community people over 30 are in trouble.

Many of these people have no business getting into trucking, but feel they have no alternative. This is real life, not the fairy tale that anyone can be anything as long as they work hard. That don't work when there are no jobs.


Well, I digress.
I am only sharing some thoughts and offering a few real life examples to back up those thoughts.

I think you have figured out by now that my point is that rules and regulations don't mean a thing as long as they are selectively enforced just to make money, or enforced with malice.

Another point I have tried to make is that the big companies force drivers to lie and cheat on paperwork all the time. Yes, the blame can be put on the driver. It's easy when you haven't been in their shoes. When your lively-hood and everything you have is based upon a job, a person sometimes lets themselves be forced into things they shouldn't do. If you are a newbie, then the stakes are higher.

How about making some laws, and enforcing them, about the way DAC and the big trucking companies conspire to ruin a drivers life. A company can say anything they want, but you have little recourse as far as correcting unfounded bad reports.

How about doing a real audit on the big companies. There is enough evidence on this forum to put quite a few out of business, if followed up correctly. It won't happen. Big trucking has too much money and too many lobbyist.

As long as the paperwork looks good a company gets a "satisfactory", while there is full knowledge that the paperwork is phony as a three dollar bill.

I run legal. I have for several years now. This has not been so in the past, but you would never know it by my paperwork from back then. It looked legal.

This is the way trucking is done. Make it look legal. What driver hasn't been called into safety to change a log to look legal. The company does not care that you ran illegal, they probably forced the driver into it. Just make it look legal, that's all that matters.

I have babbled on long enough now. I will debate as long as you like, or until the moderators stop this thread. I will not resort to personal insults, as I find your points of view interesting, though somewhat predictable. Maybe we can each learn something about the others world.



P.S. If anyone can instruct me as to how I can get the pretty colored script and the quote boxes to work, I would greatly appreciate it. Remember, I am only a simple minded trucker.

[kc0iv]

P.S. If anyone can instruct me as to how I can get the pretty colored script and the quote boxes to work, I would greatly appreciate it. Remember, I am only a simple minded trucker.

Here is a couple to help you.

Quotes are done by:
1. Entering the left square bracket #[# (without the # sign).
2. Type the word quote.
3. Enter the right square bracket #]# (without the # sign).
4. Place a space after the right bracket.
5. Copy and paste the text you want.
6. Enter a left square bracket #[# (without the # sign).
7. Enter a forward slash #/# (without the # sign).
8. Type the word quote.
9. Enter the right square bracket #]# (without the # sign).

Example -- #[#quote#]# Place Text Here.#[#/quote#]#
Remember in the example don't use the # sign. I used it stop the system from using the quote entry. Here is an example of the results.

Results --

Place Text Here.

Now for colored text.

1. Entering the left square bracket #[# (without the # sign).
2. Type the words color=.
3. Type the color you want. Example - Red.
4. Enter a right square bracket #]# (without the # sign).
5. Place a space.
6. Type the text you want colored.
7. Place a space.
8. Entering the left square bracket #[# (without the # sign).
9. Enter a forward slash #/# (without the # sign).
10. Type the word color.
11. Enter a right square bracket #]# (without the # sign).


Example -- #[#color=Red#]# Place Text Here.#[#/color#]#

Remember in the example don't use the # sign. I used it stop the system from using the entry. Here is an example of the results.

Results -- Place Text Here.

The key to using format codes is start by using a [ bracket. Use the format code you want. The close the Format code by using ] bracket.

Remember to use the / key to close the format code.

One more thing is to use the preview to check your codes. Then once you have it the way you want it then hit the submit.

There are ways using the code tags on the reply section also. But I find it easier my way. But then I know HTML coding.

Hope this helps.

kc0iv

[stranger]

stranger wrote:
P.S. If anyone can instruct me as to how I can get the pretty colored script and the quote boxes to work, I would greatly appreciate it. Remember, I am only a simple minded trucker.

I think I have it Now.

I had all of my codes and HTML disabeled at the bottom of the page. Boy, am I simple minded!

Thanks for the help

[Truckfam]

stranger, you are right especially about all truckers getting pulled in to "correct" their log books. My husband had two different trainers with the company he first worked for. Both trainers were pulled in for log book violations. Yep, the trainers who are suppose to be training the new guys being pulled in for violations. Pretty sad.

Yes, there is enough evidence on this board to convict many companies. I remember Myth_buster gauking about electronic logs. If I remember correctly, doesn't Werner make all their drivers use some type of new electronic logs that only the company can access. The only reason I remember that is because of driver complaints that Werner fudged the logs for them. One driver was battling Werner over the logs. The logs showed he still had time to drive. He said he was technically out of time to drive for the day and needed sleep. I believe in the end that he drove tired. I don't know what happened to him since then.

There always seems to be the devil in the writing somewhere. I do agree that the HOS needs to be slimplified even to the point of getting rid of sleeper berth time. Exactly what does that do anyhow? Someone could use the split to "fudge" and drive while they said they were sleeping. A person could have to take his 8 hour, but not be tired at all until say the last two hours. But guess what, he has to wake up and drive because his time is regulated too much.

Stranger, thanks for posting since they are very good. If we could rate posts on this forum, then I would be rating yours the highest.