Border Patrol checkpoints, Teaming, & HOS

[Mystikal]

Ok, heres a wonderful question that is making me livid since its happened to me twice now. Can Border Patrol at a checkpoint roust a team driver out of the bunk just to ask them if their a U.S. Citizen? From what I remember in school during logs class, even the DOT won't interrupt a co-driver during a break.

I normally drive the 2a to 2p shift and we happened to hit the a checkpoint in Texas during my sleep period, after 6pm. This time I was told the guy opened the drivers door, pulled the curtain back, and shined the flashlight right in my face to verify I was there and a citizen. I vaguely remember this but none the less it rousted me a bit.

The second time was today. I only slept 4 hours last night thanks to crappy roads, so needless to say by 4pm today I was exhausted. I went to bed and within 2 hours I was rousted out of bed at a checkpoint in Texas by my wife because he has to ask me personally if i'm a U.S. Citizen. ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Its a pain in the ass already to sleep out here on these roads and their going to friggin' wake me up out of my slumber to find out a simple question that can be verified on my license.. which is ALWAYS within reach of the driver.

Anyways, my question is... is this legal for them to do? Or can the driver, whichever of us may be driving, just tell them "their on a break and can't be interrupted" without consequence? If I've just gone to bed or i'm awake back there I don't have a problem with it, but I was in a deep sleep! I would think that if the DOT can't do it then why could Border Patrol? And, if this is the case, will the reg by the FMCSA dictating a "10 hour uninterrupted break" be enough to keep us out of trouble? If not, i'm going to start logging it as a 15 minute line-4 and restart my break... in which case most of our loads after a checkpoint where they do this will be late. I'm dead serious about my sleep!

[Fredog]

Ok, heres a wonderful question that is making me livid since its happened to me twice now. Can Border Patrol at a checkpoint roust a team driver out of the bunk just to ask them if their a U.S. Citizen? From what I remember in school during logs class, even the DOT won't interrupt a co-driver during a break.

I normally drive the 2a to 2p shift and we happened to hit the a checkpoint in Texas during my sleep period, after 6pm. This time I was told the guy opened the drivers door, pulled the curtain back, and shined the flashlight right in my face to verify I was there and a citizen. I vaguely remember this but none the less it rousted me a bit.

The second time was today. I only slept 4 hours last night thanks to crappy roads, so needless to say by 4pm today I was exhausted. I went to bed and within 2 hours I was rousted out of bed at a checkpoint in Texas by my wife because he has to ask me personally if i'm a U.S. Citizen. ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Its a pain in the ass already to sleep out here on these roads and their going to friggin' wake me up out of my slumber to find out a simple question that can be verified on my license.. which is ALWAYS within reach of the driver.

Anyways, my question is... is this legal for them to do? Or can the driver, whichever of us may be driving, just tell them "their on a break and can't be interrupted" without consequence? If I've just gone to bed or i'm awake back there I don't have a problem with it, but I was in a deep sleep! I would think that if the DOT can't do it then why could Border Patrol? And, if this is the case, will the reg by the FMCSA dictating a "10 hour uninterrupted break" be enough to keep us out of trouble? If not, i'm going to start logging it as a 15 minute line-4 and restart my break... in which case most of our loads after a checkpoint where they do this will be late. I'm dead serious about my sleep!

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[Mystikal]

Greatly appreciated Fredog! I'll post the answer I get.

[Fredog]

Greatly appreciated Fredog! I'll post the answer I get.

Happy to be of assistance, sometimes it takes them a few days to answer, so just be patient

[bikerboy]

you worry way too much, of course the border patrol can do whatever they feel like!

just flag it and continue with your break or don't even log it all all is what i would do, no way would i restart my 10 hours!

[cdswans]

This is a great question!

But, first of all, what makes you think it's an immigration check? The big yellow sign that says immigration checkpoint? The dog isn't there to sniff out passports and the guys in green aren't there to make a judgement on whether or not you look like an American. It's drug interdiction, plain and simple with the occasional side benefit of pulling a few illegals out of a trunk.

The guys in green have the authority to stop and observe you but only to the extent that they have been authorized to stop and observe everybody or nobody. It's just like a sobriety check point. They can't cherry pick or profile. They have no particular interest or authority whether or not you carry a CDL and I doubt most of them know (or care) the first thing about HOS. They have no right to detain or interrogate you unless and until you give them probable cause and they would, at that point, be required to Mirandize you. You can give them permission, as most do, unfortuately, but you have no duty to them other than to not run them over.

They have every right to strike up a conversation with you (again, you have no duty to participate) and that's the basis for the whole ruse. Why would any red blooded American object to being asked about your citizenry? They don't give a rat's rear end about your citizenry! It's a big, phony ploy to gain access to your window and to look around a bit while the dog gives the ride a quick once over. They question you to get a reading on you. Are you nervous, shaking, sweating, evasive, glassy eyed . . whatever . . probable cause! It's information (evidence) they could never get if they had to stand by the side of the road and dangle the dog from a rope.

Your wife had no duty to disclose her citizenship, to answer whether or not you were there or wake you up so you could play along, too.

This is how it should go . . You stop at the stop sign and keep your window rolled up. When the guy asks you to roll down the window, you roll it down just enough to ask "Am I free to go?" because the legal search is over. Even the dog is legal but they can't detain you if it happens to be a slow dog. When the guy screams "Just answer the (citizenship) question!" You ask again "Am I free to go?" and add "If not, why am I being detained?" If they haven't established an articulable probable cause to detain you, they're supposed to let you go.

But, now you've done it! You stood your ground and defended of your rights but rather than applaud your civics wisdom and good citizenship they're going to have to call for a supervisor.

There. Now you know. So, now what are you going to do? Assert your rights, tell your wife to flip the guy off and demand to be sent on your way? That's what I want to do but I don't. I've been waved through as often as I've been asked if I'm a U. S. citizen. My day and the job at hand are going to go a lot smoother if I acquiesce and allow my rights to be trampled. If I were in my own vehicle with a little extra time on my hands it would be a very different story.

[Mystikal]

This is a great question!

But, first of all, what makes you think it's an immigration check? The big yellow sign that says immigration checkpoint? The dog isn't there to sniff out passports and the guys in green aren't there to make a judgement on whether or not you look like an American. It's drug interdiction, plain and simple with the occasional side benefit of pulling a few illegals out of a trunk.

The guys in green have the authority to stop and observe you but only to the extent that they have been authorized to stop and observe everybody or nobody. It's just like a sobriety check point. They can't cherry pick or profile. They have no particular interest or authority whether or not you carry a CDL and I doubt most of them know (or care) the first thing about HOS. They have no right to detain or interrogate you unless and until you give them probable cause and they would, at that point, be required to Mirandize you. You can give them permission, as most do, unfortuately, but you have no duty to them other than to not run them over.

They have every right to strike up a conversation with you (again, you have no duty to participate) and that's the basis for the whole ruse. Why would any red blooded American object to being asked about your citizenry? They don't give a rat's rear end about your citizenry! It's a big, phony ploy to gain access to your window and to look around a bit while the dog gives the ride a quick once over. They question you to get a reading on you. Are you nervous, shaking, sweating, evasive, glassy eyed . . whatever . . probable cause! It's information (evidence) they could never get if they had to stand by the side of the road and dangle the dog from a rope.

Your wife had no duty to disclose her citizenship, to answer whether or not you were there or wake you up so you could play along, too.

This is how it should go . . You stop at the stop sign and keep your window rolled up. When the guy asks you to roll down the window, you roll it down just enough to ask "Am I free to go?" because the legal search is over. Even the dog is legal but they can't detain you if it happens to be a slow dog. When the guy screams "Just answer the (citizenship) question!" You ask again "Am I free to go?" and add "If not, why am I being detained?" If they haven't established an articulable probable cause to detain you, they have to let you go.

Now you've done it! You stood your ground and defended of your rights but rather than applaud your civics wisdom and good citizenship they're going to have to call for a supervisor.

There. Now you know. So, now what are you going to do? Assert your rights, tell your wife to flip the guy off and demand to be sent on your way? That's what I want to do but I don't. I've been waved through as often as I've been asked if I'm a U. S. citizen. My day and the job at hand are going to go a lot smoother if I acquiesce and allow my rights to be trampled. If I were in my own vehicle with a little extra time on my hands it would be a very different story.

Being a former LEO and holding a Criminal Justice degree I already knew much of this..(which I realize I didn't state) but thanks for the info. no I didn't, nor did I plan, to do any of the last sentence by any means but after having been woken up I would like to have, but I bit my tongue and was nice.

I understand my post was probably not the best written in form OR tone as it was written in anger immediately AFTER having been woken up from only been asleep 2 hours so I apologize if I were kurt in any of it.

Anyways, We went back through the same checkpoint a day later and I asked a Senior agent about it... it was a nice exchange and he explained the law that allows them to do so. He said he understood the FMCSA laws and apologized for the inconvience and gave the usual they were just doing their jobs bit.. which I do understand as well. I acknowledged that I understood after which my wife and I had a bit of a conversation/jokes with the few of the agents standing around and we moved on. I could be an ass but why make their night difficult and possibly create problems for myself? They can do it because its in the name of homeland security by law. I don't like it and its not really ethical but I understand.

Thanks for those that posted.

[catalinaflyer]

But, now you've done it! You stood your ground and defended of your rights but rather than applaud your civics wisdom and good citizenship they're going to have to call for a supervisor.

Well my friend next time your at one of these check-points go ahead and assert your rights and find out just how long you will be there. I tried something very similar to this a few years back while going through one of these Q&A sessions with one of the folks in green. I soon got to taste New Mexico asphalt while being fitted with a very nice pair of chrome bracelets with a real nifty hinge system between them. Of course they told me this was for my safety. I sat there the next 2 1/2 hours on the curb while they tore apart every single square inch of the truck and trailer. I then spent the next 24 hours putting it all back together because they are only tear-apart people not put-it-back people. What pissed me off worse than anything was they dumped two brand new bags of Starbucks coffee in the garbage can.

Oh and I was never read my rights. According to the big boss, I was not under arrest and therefore no rights. I asked about the legality of what they were doing and was given a 30 minute speech about what they, the Customs and Border Protection people can do and what a LEO cannot do.

Since then I have been through 50+ checks and have never had another issue, I roll down the window, answer the Q&A session and am on my way.

[b00m]

There you go catalinaflyer, lesson learned.

I think it is for the better of us to comply with what it's out there.If you have to get out for 5 min. i don't see the problem or issue.Sometimes we complain about the smallest things and don't realize that behind all these things there is a reason.I prefer to be be "safe than sorry" no matter what.

Sometimes they detect my European accent.Other times i had a European flag(i stopped doing that)on my windshield and they would pick up that I'm not a full American.I'm not born here actually.But since i showed my US military id they would give me the salute to go.I thought that was funny seeing their eyes from big to small.But yeah,i don't have a problem and neither anyone else cause it is for our own safety.Simple as that!

[cdswans]

It took me a while to track down this clip. It's just one piece of a 42 part lecture. Part 28's (top link) relevance to the OP is contained within the 4th amendment discussion and won't take a great commitment of time for anyone who is interested. Part 26 will give you an understanding of just what a U.S. citizen is and the trap they are laying by asking you the very specific question "Are you a U. S. Citizen?" and is also discussed further in part 28.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6QOi...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShbCg...eature=related

Alternatively, I hope it generates a lot of interest and you take in all 42 pieces. It's an eye-opener, to say the least.

[Orangetxguy]

Saturday afternoon, at the checkpoint on NB US77, north of Brownsville, I told the young man, whom was asking me that question, that he had to pay me $20 first. When he asked me to open the door so he could look in, I told him that he had to add another $25, to that first $20.

"This is Corporate America" I told him and his buddies. "I have to make a profit from anything I have to physically do...like responding to silly questions or letting someone invade my privacy." "Your roadside cameras already told you how many warm bodies are on or in this truck".


They laughed and waved me on.