Dear Golfhobo,

[allan5oh]

I agree with Rev on this one:

1) You CANNOT operate a CMV past 11 hours/14 hours/70 hours. Personal use means nothing. Yes it would be logged as off-duty, however you still cannot do it.

2) You CAN be on duty past 11 hours/14 hours/70 hours. I've done it. Many others have.

[Rev.Vassago]

Although, what are the regs for operating a CMV on private property? Could the driver pull out of the dock without violating any rules?

If there is public access to the property, the FMCSA regs apply.

Could a non CDL driver move the truck out of the dock for him?

Not legally.

[golfhobo]

The part I don't understand is he let me go to the delivery and said I would be out of service there until Midnight. 3:45am Monday till 12:01am Tuesday. I am guessing the 12.5hrs I logged on the prior 8th day falls off at midnight and puts me under my 70hrs??

If he put me out of service at 3:45am how do I log me delivery at 8:00am or do I have to? If out of service can you still be on duty and not driving?? Is it legal to let the truck sit for 34hrs from the out of service time and call it a restart?

Had the officer followed protocol, this driver would have been OOS on the side of the road ONE BLOCK from his delivery. There would BE NO question of whether or not he could "bump a dock" while OOS! I have found no "exceptions" to the OOS rules that even consider safe parking conditions, but if there ARE any.... I'm SURE they don't extend beyond the gates of the receiver's property.... and CERTAINLY not to include the safety sensitive function of bumping the dock. They don't "exist" because they are not even "contemplated."

Obviously, after all this time and several threads, the question STILL remains as to whether or not line 4 activities violate an OOS order.

After extensive research, I cannot find any "related" difference between a "driver OOS" order based on logbook violations, and those due to alcohol restrictions. So let's look at THOSE:

383.37 Employer responsibilities. [guidance]

Question 2: a. A motor carrier recently found a driver who had a detectable presence of alcohol, placed him off-duty in accordance with §392.5, and ordered a blood test which disclosed a blood alcohol concentration of 0.05 percent. Is the carrier obligated to place the driver out of service for 24 hours as prescribed by §392.5(c)?

b. Is the carrier obligated to disqualify the driver for a period of one year as prescribed by §§383.51(b) and 391.15(c)(3)(i) of the FMCSRs?

Guidance: a. Only a State or Federal official can place a driver out of service. Instead, the carrier is obligated to place the driver off-duty and prevent him/her from operating or being in control of a CMV until he/she is no longer in violation of §392.5.

Now.... WHY do you think they make a distinction between "operating" or "being in control of" a CMV? The very FACT that they do.... indicates there are at least subtle differences in definitions.

Could it BE that they are concerned with SAFETY, and there is MORE to safety than just driving the vehicle?

382.107 Definitions.

"Safety-sensitive function" means all time from the time a driver begins to work or is required to be in readiness to work until the time he/she is relieved from work and all responsibility for performing work. Safety-sensitive functions shall include:

(1) All time at an employer or shipper plant, terminal, facility, or other property, or on any public property, waiting to be dispatched, unless the driver has been relieved from duty by the employer;

(2) All time inspecting equipment as required by §§392.7 and 392.8 of this subchapter or otherwise inspecting, servicing, or conditioning any commercial motor vehicle at any time;

(3) All time spent at the driving controls of a commercial motor vehicle in operation;

(4) All time, other than driving time, in or upon any commercial motor vehicle except time spent resting in a sleeper berth (a berth conforming to the requirements of §393.76 of this sub-chapter);

(5) All time loading or unloading a vehicle, supervising, or assisting in the loading or unloading, attending a vehicle being loaded or unloaded, remaining in readiness to operate the vehicle, or in giving or receiving receipts for shipments loaded or unloaded; and

(6) All time repairing, obtaining assistance, or remaining in attendance upon a disabled vehicle.

You may note (as I have) that the definition of "on duty time" is almost identical to that of "safety sensitive functions." And, unless you are totally out in left field.... you understand that the FMCSR's are concerned with promoting SAFTEY by insisting that a driver who cannot PROVE he is sober, or PROVE he is rested, should be prevented from ALL "safety sensitive" functions.... or LINE 4 time that is not "paperwork related."

I UNDERSTAND the debate as it is now, centerered around whether or not one HAS to go "off duty" as soon as he is placed OOS.... or whether he can continue "safety sensitive functions" like unloading or supervising the unloading of a truck, or squishing people between the bumper and the dock, etc... and I agree that the regs.... as always.... are vague. But, dare I say, the "spirit" of the regs is that no driver placed OOS for not being able to prove he is well rested, OR that has a minor detectable amount of alcohol in his system, COULD and SHOULD be considered a possible "safety" hazard to the public, or the workers at the shipper/receiver, or himself or other drivers... and therefore:

SHALL BE placed OOS until he has met the requirements of this part. The TIME may vary depending on whether it is a 70 hour violation, a 11/14 hour violation, or an alcohol related violation.

But, there is no doubt in MY MIND, that OOS means "no operating or controlling" a CMV in any type of "safety sensitive" function until AFTER serving the OFF DUTY time required by the OOS order!

Y'all want to keep splitting hairs? Go ahead. The penalties are in the THOUSANDS of dollars.

If you want to believe that a CDL holder who drives a concrete mixer, can violate an OOS order and keep pouring concrete with a .07 BAC and only 4 hours sleep.... take a 2 hour break and have another 6pack of beers.... because he's not REALLY "operating" a CMV.... Crawl in the cab within stumbling distance of the air-brake release knobs.... with workers behind his vehicle.... and do his "paperwork" like the REV says.....

And then..... serve his "OOS order" later that night after finishing his work.... Y'all go ahead! But, PLEASE tell me where you are so I can stay far away from you and your UNPROFESSIONAL ideas of "operating" a CMV!

As I said. The cop violated his own protocol (unless he has discretion I'm not aware of) concerning placing a driver OR TRUCK "OOS." I'm quite SURE that he intended the driver to ONLY drive onto the property before serving his OOS time. Once there, a Yard dog could have done all the "safety sensitive" work to get his trailer unloaded and parked and ready for him to move on AFTER he was legal!

But, NOTHING I have read concerning the regs controlling a CMV driver, and the SAFETY of such, would allow me to believe that a driver placed "OOS" for a violation of rules designed to make a driver SAFE.... would allow him to continue the many activities that require concentration and SAFETY training, with lives in the balance, as LONG as he doesn't actually "drive" the vehicle. And even THAT you are asking me to accept only applies to driving the vehicle on the open road! Driving in a receiver's facility, bumping or leaving a dock, is MORE dangerous than open road driving! You guys KNOW this!

I've SAID my piece. I'm about DONE with THIS one! EVERY thing you do while on the road, (except when parked in a T/S, or using the vehicle as a personal conveyance,) is considered part of "operating a CMV in Interstate Commerce."

When they put you OUT OF SERVICE..... they mean NO "safety sensitive functions" [which shares the definition of ON DUTY TIME] from the MINUTE they put you OOS.... until the time served that meets the requirements of the HOS.

[Rev.Vassago]

I've SAID my piece.

You played "woe is me," we all had an intelligent conversation while you were gone, and then you came back to get the last word in to muck it all up.

[golfhobo]

Rev.Vassago said:

You played "woe is me,"

No, I didn't. I'm sorry I mentioned it, but.... supporting you as a Mod, when MOST others didn't.... cost me some points with SOME people. No big deal. It's just a messageboard. I didn't Expect you to "befriend" me.... but, if you WANT to "have a debate" you could find a better way to initiate it.

we all had an intelligent conversation while you were gone,

DID you now? I was gritting my teeth at all the misconceptions offered, (which is what USUALLY gets me into these discussions,) and I even noticed that YOU had to correct a few of the mistatements! When YOU say something wrong, and then 3 or 4 others back you up, but then THEY post a reason YOU have to argue with..... I just sit back and shake my head! I don't have enough TIME to correct EVERY mistake on this board!

and then you came back to get the last word in to muck it all up

You can call it what you want. I don't care. My concern.... as ALWAYS.... has been to clarify the "vague" regs.... and contradict the misconceptions that YOU and others have about them. My TIME is limited, and my patience is sometimes even less.

[Rev.Vassago]

supporting you as a Mod,

Seems that I remember you being the one who complained the most.

[golfhobo]

Seems that I remember you being the one who complained the most.

Seems you remember incorrectly. Don't confuse "loudest" with "most."

[Rev.Vassago]

No, I'm quite sure I am correct. You definitely weren't the loudest, but you were by far the most persistent. Even to this day you continue to pin the blame on me for things I have nothing to do with.

But as this discussion was already resolved before you posted here today, I won't be continuing it. Perhaps you can get someone else to bite, even though the consensus is very clear that a driver can be on line 4 even when out of service. I know this for a fact because I've done it at a scale with an officer present. I also know it for a fact because I understand what the word "operating" means, and I know that one can be on line 4 without operating a CMV (even though you continue to ignore that fact).

So have fun picking this last post apart. You'll get no response from me.

[golfhobo]

Rev.Vassago said:

No, I'm quite sure I am correct. You definitely weren't the loudest, but you were by far the most persistent. Even to this day you continue to pin the blame on me for things I have nothing to do with.

Prove it.

But as this discussion was already resolved before you posted here today, I won't be continuing it. Perhaps you can get someone else to bite, even though the consensus is very clear that a driver can be on line 4 even when out of service.

A "consensus?" Are you kidding me? Name me ONE driver here who, upon being put "OOS" by an LEO, will (since he is unladen and on his WAY to a pickup) consider himself "unladen" and OFF DUTY.... and therefore free to continue on to his truckstop of choice (or motel) for the night?

Yeah.... far be it for YOU to "continue it," even though YOU started it... please show me ONE reg that clearly states that a driver MAY continue to work on line 4 after being placed OOS by an LEO!

I know this for a fact because I've done it at a scale with an officer present. I also know it for a fact because I understand what the word "operating" means, and I know that one can be on line 4 without operating a CMV (even though you continue to ignore that fact).

How far PAST THAT SCALE did the LEO allow you to DRIVE? What dock did you "bump" while at that scalehouse?

So have fun picking this last post apart. You'll get no response from me.

Whatever.... I don't care! YOU started this thread. I suppose it will be up to some of the OTHERS as to whether or not the discussion was "settled" before I got around to responding. Or do you claim to hold THEIR "proxy" as to posting on this thread?

[belpre122]

Did we ever get this 'Golfhobo' logging issue resolved?



**credit~this fine artwork brought to you by the Rev.

[Rev.Vassago]

Wow, I really called that one.



I need to start charging for these psychic predictions. I never expected golfhobo to come up with such a nonsensical answer that had absolutely nothing to do with the subject though. Wow.

[dobry4u]

Wow, I really called that one.



I need to start charging for these psychic predictions.

Dear Miss Cleo (aka Rev),

Before you start charging I have a few questions I would like answered.

5. Will the Lions ever have a better than .500 season?
4. Will Golfhobo ever post something with 300 words or less?
3. Will Steve Booth ever come clean?
2. Will Gman ever know the state of things as they actually exist?
1. What are tonight's winning lotto numbers?

Thanks in advance!!!

[Rev.Vassago]

Dear Miss Cleo (aka Rev),

Before you start charging I have a few questions I would like answered.

5. Will the Lions ever have a better than .500 season?

Only when it's their turn to get Brett Favre when he unretires.

4. Will Golfhobo ever post something with 300 words or less?

No. He is incapable of short responses, and will continue to post novels in response to a single sentence, and will also continue to capitalize random words.

3. Will Steve Booth ever come clean?

No. His ego will prevent him from doing so. He cares far too much about what random anonymous people on the internet think of him.

2. Will Gman ever know the state of things as they actually exist?

No.

1. What are tonight's winning lotto numbers?

3