Bobtail

[golfhobo]

You obviously don't understand what "GVWR" means. You're misquoting a regulation that doesn't apply (remember the whole "migrant workers" thing?) and assigning it a reg # of 383.77, which isnt even accurate.

Subpart E—Testing and licensing procedures

§383.77 Substitute for driving skills tests.

Part 383: Commercial driver's license standards; requirements and penalties - Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration

Sorry about the confusion over the reg number. I was quoting from the INTERPRETATION page of reg 383.91 and at the top of THAT page, the actual reg # isn't listed. I mistakenly referenced the reg # that is SHOWING, which is actually the LINK to the previous reg.

I most certainly DO understand both GVWR and GCVWR. I also understand that the reg makes a distinction in class of CDL based on whether the "unit" being towed (either by tow truck OR bobtail) has a GVWR of 10,000 lbs or more, and that if it DOESN'T.... or if it is not THERE.... then the power unit requires ONLY a Class B providing IT has a GVWR of 26.001 lbs or more.... OR if it carries passengers or Hazmat.

If you look at the first 2 SUBsections of reg 383.91...

a)(1) Combination vehicle (Group A)—Any combination of vehicles with a gross combination weight rating (GCWR) of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more) provided the GVWR of the vehicle(s) being towed is in excess of 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds).

This is the ONLY section that mentions GCVWR, and it clearly means a COMBINATION of vehicles. A bobtail is NOT a combination. It ALSO sets the GVWR requirement for the trailer or "towed unit." IF said unit is rated LESS than 10,000 lbs (or by definition is not even THERE).... then it falls under the NEXT section.

(a)(2) Heavy Straight Vehicle (Group B)—Any single vehicle with a GVWR of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more), or any such vehicle towing a vehicle not in excess of 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds) GVWR.

This section would cover a bobtail truck with a GVWR of 26.001 lbs or more as well as a tow truck as discussed in the interpretations of this reg. It obviously also applies to most "straight trucks." It would also probably apply to a bobtail towing a POV.

I used the question about tow trucks for purpose of illustration (as it is a SINGLE vehicle - like a bobtail - until it picks up a tow) AND because the regs state that:

For CDL purposes, the tow truck and its towed vehicle are treated the same as any other powered unit towing a non-powered unit.

Gross COMBINED vehicle weight rating does not apply to a single unit that is NOT operated as part of a combination.

Though a tow truck (like a bobtail) is clearly DESIGNED to tow non powered units, (usually with a GVWR of their own over 26,001 lbs,) the regs clearly state that only a CDL-B is required if it is NOT towing a unit with a GVWR of 10,000 lbs or more.... or NONE at all.

[ or migrant workers! ]

[golfhobo]

Keeping the registration below 26,000 lbs would effectively eliminate any chance of using the vehicle to haul any sort of load, and one cannot change their registration weight simply because they are bobtailing. If the tractor registration says anything above 26,000 lbs, a class a CDL is required.

Since you didn't like my last explanation, I'll revisit this again. The answer is STILL.... NOPE.

(a)(2) Heavy Straight Vehicle (Group B)—Any single vehicle with a GVWR of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more), or any such vehicle towing a vehicle not in excess of 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds) GVWR.

I don't see where the regs say ANYTHING about "registered weight" but it doesn't matter. Obviously, if you register a vehicle to carry MORE than 26,001 lbs it fits this section of the reg... or (a)(1).

According to this section of the reg, you could register a vehicle to carry a MILLION pounds, but IF it was pulling a trailer with a GVWR of LESS than 10,000 lbs, or none at all, it would require only a class B.

[golfhobo]

My son-in-law ran a hotshot for a number of years. He used a loophole because he owned the rig, but even that way, if he registered the truck for over 26,000, not only he, but anyone that drove the truck would require a CDL. By keeping the registration below 26,000 for both truck and trailer, the truck could be driven by anyone without the trailer. So, the weight listed on the registration does play a part in the requirement.

I'm assuming that the truck had a GVWR of 26,000 lbs or less, and his trailer was rated below 10,000 lbs. OTHERWISE.... it would fit the descriptions in the regs and the appropriate CDL class would be required. If he wasn't hauling passengers or hazmat, he wouldn't even fit class C requirements. I still say "registered" weight has nothing to do with it. The GVWR is set by the manufacturer of the truck and/or trailer, is found on the door jamb, and is the ONLY thing the FMCSR's go by.

And, when MythBuster said 36,000, I'm sure it was a typo. 34,000 and 12,000 is 46,000.

Wow! I didn't even CATCH his math error. That's how confusing his answers are!

Point is.... the "allowable" axle weights of the tractor, whether single or double screw, are not directly indicative of the GVWR or GCVWR.

[Rev.Vassago]

GCWR: The maximum allowable weight of a fully loaded tow vehicle plus its fully loaded trailer, including passengers and cargo.

Not the weight that it happens to be at the time, the MAXIMUM ALLOWED WEIGHT. That means the REGISTERED weight. If the tractor is REGISTERED at 80,000 lbs, a Class A CDL is required, even if the ACTUAL weight is less than 26,001 lbs.

[golfhobo]

GCWR: The maximum allowable weight of a fully loaded tow vehicle plus its fully loaded trailer, including passengers and cargo.

Not the weight that it happens to be at the time, the MAXIMUM ALLOWED COMBINED WEIGHT. That means the REGISTERED weight. If the tractor is REGISTERED at 80,000 lbs, a Class A CDL is required, even if the ACTUAL weight is less than 26,001 lbs.

I don't know what else to say here, Rev. Apparently you don't understand the definiton of a COMBINATION vehicle. It says something about being "articulated." A Bobtail is NOT "articulated!" It fits the definiton of a SINGLE vehicle or a STRAIGHT Truck!"

OBVIOUSLY... since tractors can pull OVERWEIGHT loads with a permit, then 80,000 lbs is NOT the extent of a "registered weight" (whatever THAT is!)

When the regs say 26001 lbs GVWR, that is a MINIMUM. They clearly say OR MORE! And they CLEARLY say that a single vehicle rated at 26001 lbs OR MORE, when pulling a trailer rated at LESS than 10,000 lbs (or NONE) requires ONLY a class B CDL!

Let's LOOK at your argument:

"Not the weight that it happens to be at the time, the MAXIMUM ALLOWED COMBINED WEIGHT. That means the REGISTERED weight. If the tractor is REGISTERED at 80,000 lbs, a Class A CDL is required, even if the ACTUAL weight is less than 26,001 lbs."

And then, let's look at the regs:

I don't care WHAT the "registered weight" is.... I'm ASSUMING that it is over 26,001 lbs..... yet the REGS state that:

(a)(2) Heavy Straight Vehicle (Group B)—Any single vehicle with a GVWR of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more), (Heck, let's say it is "registered at 80,000 lbs) or any such vehicle towing a vehicle not in excess of 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds) GVWR.

So.... a truck with a GVWR of 80,000 lbs, towing a trailer rated at LESS than 10,000 lbs fits THIS section of the regs.... and requires no more than a class "B" CDL! Don't BELIEVE me? Let's look at section (a)(1):

(a)(1) Combination vehicle (Group A)—Any combination of vehicles with a gross combination weight rating (GCWR) of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more) provided the GVWR of the vehicle(s) being towed is in excess of 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds).

So... PROVIDED the towed "unit" IF THERE IS ONE... is rated at less than 10,000 lbs, even THAT wouldn't require a class "A" CDL.... REGARDLESS of the COMBINED GVWR of the power unit! (GCVWR)

I've "parsed" these regs to oblivion! I've highlighted the relative text. I've SHOWN that you are WRONG! I'm DONE with this!

If you don't "get it" by now....

[Rev.Vassago]

I've SHOWN that your are WRONG!

you

After digging into a lot of FMCSA documents, I finally found a definition of GVWR straight from them, and after doing so, I am willing to admit that I was wrong, for the first time in my life.

[golfhobo]

you

After digging into a lot of FMCSA documents, I finally found a definition of GVWR straight from them, and after doing so, I am willing to admit that I was wrong, for the first time in my life.

And I am willing to admit that I misspelled YOU.... for the FIRST time in my life!

[Windwalker]

The "loophole" I referred to with my son-in-law, was the fact that as long as the rig is registered for less than 26,000, and he is the owner, he does not require a CDL to drive it. However, he does require a DOT physical. That way, he could pull the magnetic signs and logos off the doors and use it as a private vehicle. Anyone could drive it. If it were registered for over 26,000, anyone that drove the truck, without the trailer, would have required a CDL. So, while the truck, itself, was only about 7,000 pounds, the registered weight certainly did come into play. The only times he got fined at a weigh station was when he was over 26,000 gross.

And, NO, I do not know just where he found the regs on it, but he ran that for a number of years like that.