sleepiness and HOS

[Orangetxguy]

Face it. We iz twuckews und we izn't smert enuff to figga oot whut Are bawdies can hundle.

[golfhobo]

Yeah, I realized it after I posted it, but was too lazy to change it. It would have a driver running 5 hours past his 11 hour clock, as well as at least 2 hours past his 14 hour clock.

Where is Dobry4U when we NEED her!

Seriously REV... no problem. Teaming is a different animal... which you have never done. I understand. Wouldn't it be nice if they had separate HOS rules for US? If they believe that 8 hours IN THE SLEEPER is good enough, then they should write rules that allow TEAMS to do just that! In MOST cases, we take a two hour break once a day to eat and shower anyway!

The ONLY "split" that works well for TEAMS is the 5 and 5. MAYBE a 6 and 5 and an "expected" meal break. The interesting thing is, that we rarely come CLOSE to the 14 hour limit! Personally.... I don't WANT to have to get up again after only 5 or 6 hours sleep and drive again!

I have ALWAYS said that the FMCSA regs were geared toward the SOLO driver. And I WILL say that when I DID get to drive Solo.... I had to work my butt off to "manage" my logbook!

The FACT remains that there IS a "split sleeper" option available to all drivers that CAN be used efficiently (in some cases) to meet schedules while STILL ensuring a rested driver. If managed properly, it allows a driver to take a shower and eat.... AND have that time count towards the total 10 hour off duty requirement. And when all is said and done, you arrive at the SAME time as you would if you took a full 10 hour break OR if you drove/slept 5 and 5.

[Rev.Vassago]

The FACT remains that there IS a "split sleeper" option available to all drivers that CAN be used efficiently (in some cases) to meet schedules while STILL ensuring a rested driver. If managed properly, it allows a driver to take a shower and eat.... AND have that time count towards the total 10 hour off duty requirement. And when all is said and done, you arrive at the SAME time as you would if you took a full 10 hour break OR if you drove/slept 5 and 5.

And as such, there is no need for any changes to the current regs in regards to the spllit sleeper provision. Sure, there are ways that it would be easier, but the current regs work (as attested by you), and they also work for the solo driver (as attested by me), so if they aren't working for someone else, it probably isn't the fault of the regs.

[stonefly]

And this was done because the overwhelming majority of medical professionals determined and agreed (after EXTENSIVE testing and research) that the average person AND the average trucker needed between 7 and 7.5 hours of uninterrupted sleep daily to avoid a compounding affect of sleep deprivation leading to slower reaction times, lower awareness, etc.

I've been around for long enough to have acquired a healthy suspicion with regard to all who are labeled experts. The best I ever heard is that an "expert" is somebody who's a long way from home because at home they don't let him talk.

I don't believe it. The testing and research is junk science and means nothing at all. A trucker who lives a life of splitting his bunk time and getting rest wherever he needs it probably gains faster reaction times, not slower. It's the same thing as the daily required nutrients they print on canned food. It's meaningless.

Under split sleeper berth rules, mandatory eight hour stretches of sleep are not legally required, but drivers found time to get those large blocks of sleep anyway, required or not, because they wanted them. I've been looking at this for a long time and have noticed that truck stops and rest areas fill up full at night and have been for a long time. That is because most drivers want, and get, a full night's rest whenever they can, regardless of regulations. Maybe things were different fifteen or twenty years ago, but today, drivers seek rest. They don't need regulations that categorize bunk time as work hours. Nobody needs that. It's dangerous. Sleep time is never work time. The present law is dangerously out of conformity with reality.

What is important is getting rest when needed.

The most dangerous part of the mandatory eight hour sleep break is the part that counts blocks of bunk time shorter than eight hours as a driver's working hours. That is an insane bit of legislation. No driver wants to, or can afford to, sacrifice his working hours. Therefore, in order to stay legal under the present regs, he has to skip sleep breaks and naps. Another way of stating this is that he must continue to drive when sleepy. That is the greatest danger of all and has nothing to do with "cumulative sleep deficit."

I'm not on this forum to wail about the present regs or look for sympathy because I find them difficult to live with. I'm writing about them because I'm trying to get the split sleeper berth provision restored as part of HOS regulations. I'm trying to find drivers who will continue to contact their legislators and get the present regs reversed.

Here is the gist of it: The most important, and most dangerous reality regarding the present regs is the practice of forgoing needed sleep breaks because the time counts against a driver's working hours. That dangerous aspect of the present regs trumps anything else.

Split time was part of the trucking regs for 70 years, for good reason. Good reason goes out the window these days, and not enough people do anything about. Contact your legislators.



stonefly

[stonefly]

The FACT remains that there IS a "split sleeper" option available to all drivers that CAN be used efficiently (in some cases) to meet schedules while STILL ensuring a rested driver. If managed properly, it allows a driver to take a shower and eat.... AND have that time count towards the total 10 hour off duty requirement. And when all is said and done, you arrive at the SAME time as you would if you took a full 10 hour break OR if you drove/slept 5 and 5.

...falsification of the log books...

That option will be gone if EOBRs are mandated.

If EOBRs are mandated, in conjunction with the present HOS rules, we will have a new game of "who can stay awake at the wheel." The only drivers who will get the loads will be the ones who can do an 11 hour stretch without taking a break. That would be a great economic spur for all the meth labs springing up around the country.

Personally, I prefer sleep breaks to amphetamines. I think there may be among the rule makers those who have their money invested in the meth labs.



stonefly

[Rev.Vassago]

The most dangerous part of the mandatory eight hour sleep break is the part that counts blocks of bunk time shorter than eight hours as a driver's working hours. That is an insane bit of legislation. No driver wants to, or can afford to, sacrifice his working hours. Therefore, in order to stay legal under the present regs, he has to skip sleep breaks and naps. Another way of stating this is that he must continue to drive when sleepy. That is the greatest danger of all and has nothing to do with "cumulative sleep deficit."

The statistics regarding fatigue and crashes since the new rules were put in place would grossly disagree with your assessment.

[stonefly]

The statistics regarding fatigue and crashes since the new rules were put in place would grossly disagree with your assessment.

No they wouldn't.



stonefly

[stonefly]

The statistics regarding fatigue and crashes since the new rules were put in place would grossly disagree with your assessment.

Who are the people coming up with those statistics? The same people who made the rules?



stonefly

[Rev.Vassago]

Yeah, it's a gubberment conspiracy. Break out the tin foil.

Prove their statistics wrong then, because at-fault truck crashes have been going DOWN year after year.

[LightsChromeHorsepower]

No they wouldn't.



stonefly

Yes they would. I have read a couple of excellent books on sleep research. Most people don't get enough.

And I think that weird sleep cycles and poor sleep quality still affect drivers in a major way. I know when I pull our tanker I'm at the mercy of our customers production schedule with random 8, 10 or 16 hour shifts. It gets my body confused by the end of the week. More than once I've slept in the parking lot after unloading even though I had the hours to get home legally. I got a horrible night of sleep in LA Friday, so I took a 3 hour nap coming home. The nap caused me to go over my 16, but I was awake & alert for the rest of the trip.

I'm not crazy about the current HOS regs, but I can make them work. In Cali we get 12 & 16, not 11 & 14, that helps a lot. The problem is that they occasionally force one to lie and thus break the law, which gives the powers that be leverage over me because I've made myself a criminal. It's a common strategy, used by countless regimes over the course of history- make laws that the average citizen will break so you can place almost anyone under the thumb of power at almost any time.

I'm not sure what I will do if we have to have EOBR's. It's a fairly common scenario dor me to run out of hours 45 minutes from home on an LA turn. What really sucks is that the closest place back on the route to get any services is Westley, which is over 2 hours. I'm not shutting down for 10 hours when I'm 45 minutes from home and I'm not shutting down 2 hours early because there's no parking or services available near where I will run out of hours.

[stonefly]

Yeah, it's a gubberment conspiracy. Break out the tin foil.

Are you a sissy?

[golfhobo]

Originally Posted by golfhobo

The FACT remains that there IS a "split sleeper" option available to all drivers that CAN be used efficiently (in some cases) to meet schedules while STILL ensuring a rested driver. If managed properly, it allows a driver to take a shower and eat.... AND have that time count towards the total 10 hour off duty requirement. And when all is said and done, you arrive at the SAME time as you would if you took a full 10 hour break OR if you drove/slept 5 and 5.

...falsification of the log books...

I mean no disrespect and am not looking for a fight Stonefly... but, I'm not sure you actually understand the new rules. NOTHING in what I said above (that you quoted) implies any "falsification" of a logbook.

More on this after I answer your other post.

[Fredog]

I'd like to chime in, but I'm just too tired

[golfhobo]

stonefly said:

an "expert" is somebody who's a long way from home because at home they don't let him talk.

That's a good one.

I don't believe it. The testing and research is junk science and means nothing at all.

That sounds like an opinion based on a preconcieved and desired outcome. I have actually SEEN videos of subjects trying to put pegs in holes, etc after varying sleep patterns. The camera doesn't lie. The results are clear to even the most stubborn viewer.

A trucker who lives a life of splitting his bunk time and getting rest wherever he needs it probably gains faster reaction times, not slower.

And how 'bout that NEWBIE out there on the road with you? You think he's had TIME to develop such an "adjusted" sleep pattern?

Under (the OLD?) split sleeper berth rules, mandatory eight hour stretches of sleep are not legally required, but drivers found time to get those large blocks of sleep anyway, required or not, because they wanted them. I've been looking at this for a long time and have noticed that truck stops and rest areas fill up full at night and have been for a long time. That is because most drivers want, and get, a full night's rest whenever they can, regardless of regulations.

Under the old rules, MANY drivers claim that they kept moving thru the night after their 5 hour nap because traffic was easier. Truckstops were RARELY as crowded as they are now. The reason they are NOW is that most drivers shut down for 10 at a time, so they call it a night. I don't disagree that MOST drivers will get a full night's sleep when they can, but with the advent of Just In Time warehousing, those times are not always available. The regulations are not SO MUCH designed to penalize the driver, or make him shut down, as they are to PREVENT carriers from demanding drivers keep pushing even when they are tired.

Maybe things were different fifteen or twenty years ago, but today, drivers seek rest. They don't need regulations that categorize bunk time as work hours.

Here is where I don't understand your viewpoint. Other than the fact that any "naps" that exceed a cumulative of 3 hours a day would reduce your "duty window of 14 hours," NONE of your sleeper berth time would count as work hours. Even when you take a two hour break for lunch it doesn't count against your 70 for the week. And ANY Sleeper berth period of at least 8 hours doesn't count against your 14 hour limit OR your 70. In fact, even a 7 hour sleeper berth break, tho it counts against your duty window, doesn't count against your 70. The 8/2 is the same as a full 10 hour break per 14 hour duty window. If you can't "manage" to stay in the sleeper for 8 hours instead of 7, YOU are the one at fault.

What is important is getting rest when needed.

I agree. But the only time I NEEDED multiple naps during the day is when I had cheated my logs and NOT gotten my full 8 or 10 hour rest period.

The most dangerous part of the mandatory eight hour sleep break is the part that counts blocks of bunk time shorter than eight hours as a driver's working hours.

No... it doesn't. It don't go against your 70. And... it would count as the 2 hour requirement, allowing you to "split" and only need to shut down for 8.

That is an insane bit of legislation. No driver wants to, or can afford to, sacrifice his working hours. Therefore, in order to stay legal under the present regs, he has to skip sleep breaks and naps.

ONLY if he is a poor manager of his time. In fact, the NEW RULES that include the 34 hour restart have INCREASED the number of hours a driver can work/drive within 7 days... and THIS is the main reason Public Citizen and other groups oppose them.

Another way of stating this is that he must continue to drive when sleepy. That is the greatest danger of all and has nothing to do with "cumulative sleep deficit."

The ONLY part of the new rules that cause this is the NONextendable 14 hour "duty window." It has NOTHING to do with the new limits on the split sleeper berth.

I'm not on this forum to wail about the present regs or look for sympathy because I find them difficult to live with. I'm writing about them because I'm trying to get the split sleeper berth provision restored as part of HOS regulations. I'm trying to find drivers who will continue to contact their legislators and get the present regs reversed.

It would be easier to follow your argument if you would stop saying that the split sleeper berth option no longer exists. You are referring to the OLD S/B provisions. 5/5...8/2.... what's the difference really? The thing that is missing is the EXTENDABLE 15 hour duty window.

Here is the gist of it: The most important, and most dangerous reality regarding the present regs is the practice of forgoing needed sleep breaks because the time counts against a driver's working hours.

No... it doesn't. And BTW.... under the OLD rules, you had no 34 hour restart. This meant that regardless of how you split your rest time, you could only work 70 hours in 8 days. Under the NEW rules including the 34 hour provision, you can work something like 98 hours (I forget the actual number) in the same 8 days! Now.... you STILL want to go back to the good ole days?

Split time was part of the trucking regs for 70 years, for good reason.

R-i-g-h-t. The SAME reason why there were monopolies in oil, airline and other industries. The same reason why there was no minimum wage. The same reason doctors could work anytime and for as long as they wanted before operating on you. The same reason some states had no speed limits. The list goes on.

[Rev.Vassago]

Are you a sissy?

No.

As I said, prove the statistics wrong, because everything I've seen disagrees with your baseless stance.

[LightsChromeHorsepower]

Check this story out;

Regional pilots lack sleep, salary, experience

100K in debt for a 25K per year job?

CDL mills look wonderful in comparison.

[stonefly]

golfhobo,

You're wrong. You're wrong about this, and I see you don't understand a thing I said. I know that you don't understand the advantage of splitting bunk time. Also, you do not realize that presently there is no split sleeper berth provision. You are trying to explain to me that I can still split my time, and that I should be having no problem. I started having big problems in October, 2005. I split my time for 7 years OTR and it became a way of life that I enjoyed. It gave me no sleep problems. I rarely hit 70 hours. I run under my own authority. I rarely get close to 3000 miles a week. I do not try to drive a lot of miles. I try to take loads that pay good rates. You do not understand. You don't. You cannot see the problem.

I don't want to go through an entire post line by line, but I'd like to start with one point of discussion.

Management of time?

The law. Once a driver starts his truck and takes a walk around it, looking things over, he has started his day. He must draw a little line on line 4. Fourteen hours later, he must stop driving. My friend, that is the law and I think you know it.

I've driven coast to coast many times. I've also spent a lot of time on the eastern seaboard. For most of my 11 years OTR, the eastern seaboard, with its 500 mile to 600 mile runs, has been my bread and butter. I pull a reefer.

I am used to backing up to a dock door and going to sleep, very often, for loading and unloading. I know the places where I might oughta' watch 'em load me and I know the places where I don't have to watch 'em load me. I like the places where I don't have to watch 'em load me because then I can lie in my bunk and sleep.

It's not unusual to sit at a dock for 2, 3, 4, or 5 hours, or perhaps longer, to get loaded, or unloaded. That's food warehouses, my friend. Perhaps you already know.

To make this simple to understand, and believe me, I wanna try and do that here, let's say it takes 3 hours to get a door and get loaded on a 600 mile run, for an 8 AM appointment the following morning. That is a standard, run of the mill, everyday, common type load.

Now, let's say pick up time was 9 AM. There is nothing unusual about that. A 9 AM pick up appointment, and a 600 mile run, for an 8 AM delivery the following morning, is not, or shouldn't be, anything that is particularly difficult to accomplish. That's 23 hours to load, drive, rest, eat, fuel, and maybe even shower.

Follow this so far. A 9 AM pick up on day one, for an 8 AM delivery the following morning, 600 miles. That is a common, bread and butter run for many truckers like myself.

The 3 hours loading is normal. I don't know what kind of trucking you do, but time spent at loading and unloading docks is part of trucking.

For a driver who obeys speed limits, I'll guarantee you that running 600 miles on the eastern seaboard is going to eat up every bit of 11 hours.

Now, my friend, 3 hours has been spent at a loading dock, and 14 minus 3 equals 11.

So you see, my friend, management of time has been removed from the hands of the man who needs it most, and if I need to explain the matter to you any further, let me know. I'll be happy to do so. For now, I choose to leave it up to your intelligence, and I know you ain't dumb.



stonefly

[Rev.Vassago]

It's all too clear to me that your beef with the regulations has nothing to do with obtaining restorative sleep (which the new regulations certainly allow for), and everything to do with your inability to earn as much money under the new regulations.

You are using the guise of "junk science" as your scapegoat. But the facts don't support you, and no matter how much you try to ignore them, they never will.

[Jumbo]

You guys have to break out your tin foil hats? I never take mine off.

[Rev.Vassago]

This entire thread is nothing more than "waah waah we're not making enough money so we need the gubberment to help us". Learn to adapt or get out of the game.