Dear Golfhobo, Part 8: THE RESULTS ARE IN!

[RebelDarlin]

RebelDarlin,

Shouldn't the last line on the sign in your avatar be "Hangers On"?

Yes it should be, however this is a pic of an actual sign in a truck stop.

[HWD]

RebelDarlin,

Shouldn't the last line on the sign in your avatar be "Hangers On"?

Yes it should be, however this is a pic of an actual sign in a truck stop.

That's OK, because I loooooooooooove your NEW avatar! :shock:

[RebelDarlin]

I do too! It's a GREAT pic of her isn't it?

[HWD]

I do too! It's a GREAT pic of her isn't it?

Yes, it is. Wasn't she the original catwoman? Her name escapes me right now.

Edit: Julie Newmar...had to google it.

[golfhobo]

You guessed it! Bumped for Stonefly (and any other newbies) so they will have ALL sides to the argument to consider. I THINK this is the last one. (Well, except for the "poll" thread that someone LOCKED.

I found it interesting that a NEWBIE like Stonefly read that whole thread and was able to come to the conclusion that my interpretation of the On Duty reg was probably correct. Maybe, he'll change his mind after reading all the others.

He....and others might also find it interesting that a poster who was permanently banned some time ago (for reasons I never really understood as I didn't read the offending threads,) actually was TOLD by a "compliance officer" without ever asking the question, that the DOT doesn't really CARE what you do in your sleeper while OFF DUTY.

He might ALSO find it interesting that the O/O, with whom I butthead every day, says that HE was also told by the DOT that ALL time when he is unladen and off duty should be logged on line 1.

I guess there ARE some DOT LEO's out there that understand the "spirit" of the regs. In fact, other than MythBuster and the Rev, it seems that ALL are in accordance.

If subpara (4) of the On Duty reg is NOT subordinate to the Topic Sentence of that reg, then NO O/O can touch his truck while at home on a reset (or even DRIVE it there,) NO company driver could be allowed the exception of "carrying" alcohol while DRIVING his unladen truck to a motel for the night (or while at home,) and NO "local" driver can be considered off duty while eating his lunch IN HIS DAYCAB even though he has written permission from his carrier.

But, there are MANY regs that address JUST such scenarios. While there is not ONE reg that says ALL time (not spent in the sleeper) on or in a CMV must be logged as ON DUTY..... UNLESS one ignores and discounts the Topic Sentence of that reg (and the OFF DUTY authorization from the carrier.) And there is ONLY that ONE sentence that would back up the Rev's argument IF one ignores that requirement.

In contrast, there is the FMCSA guidance that says that an O/O or a company driver who is using the vehicle while OFF DUTY, and as a "personal conveyance" is OUTSIDE the scope of the attending regulations.

There is also the guidance that says that a TEAM co-driver cannot log "off duty time" while sitting in the passenger seat of a vehicle that is IN OPERATION. Which begs the question of whether he could log it as such if the vehicle was NOT "in operation" (which I believe he CAN.)

I do NOT condone crawling in the sleeper (or anywhere in the cab) and getting chitfaced every night on your 10 hour break! But, I stand by my original reply to a newbie asking the question that one CAN have a few beers in his sleeper at night. I have seen NO regs that prohibit it! There MAY be company rules against it, but that is a different animal.

I ALSO stand by my conviction that the FMCSR's clearly address the LEGALITY of alcohol, and therefore their SPECIFIC address to the issue which includes their SPECIFIC regulations concerning BAC levels for a driver of a CMV "in operation" and the 4 hour bottle to throttle rule.

And I stand by my contention that the regs imply the DOT position that a CMV that is PARKED in a truckstop, with brakes popped and the driver unable (or not expected) to be able to legally MOVE that vehicle for at LEAST 10 hours,) satisfies the condition of OFF DUTY and "relieved of all responsibility for work" during which time... the subparas of the ON Duty reg do NOT apply!

And, for what it's worth, I believe that the ambiguous "state laws" concerning "physical control" do NOT apply. That MAY be an arguable point, but I don't care to argue it (IF you are in a truckstop.)

I believe there are BIGGER issues out there, especially concerning HOS violations, that endanger the motoring public. And I believe that the DOT and the FMCSA agree with me. If you adhere to the rules concerning a FULL 10 hour "break" between Tours of Duty, you will be okay. They are MORE concerned with you GETTING your "rest" for 10 hours than they are with WHERE you get that rest! (or whether you have a couple of beers to "wind down.")

I fully expect that the NEXT post on this thread will be from the REV... picking apart SOMETHING I've said that he disagrees with. That's what HE does! But, I've DONE what "I" do. Which is.... to try to interpret and explain the regs for newbies and others who don't understand them.

It is always possible that I could be WRONG! If so.... that would put me in the "good company" of many others on this board. It is up to each of us to make up our own minds. But, I have no need to "twist" the regs to fit some idea that I have. Think what you WILL of me, but... I seek only the truth and the FACTS.

Hobo

[Rev.Vassago]

I found it interesting that a NEWBIE like Stonefly read that whole thread and was able to come to the conclusion that my interpretation of the On Duty reg was probably correct.

Is that supposed to be a big deal? I know newbies who believe that the DOT can give you a citation if your bed isn't made too. Just because someone believes you doesn't mean that they are qualified to make the judgment (beyond their personal opinion).

He....and others might also find it interesting that a poster who was permanently banned some time ago (for reasons I never really understood as I didn't read the offending threads,) actually was TOLD by a "compliance officer" without ever asking the question, that the DOT doesn't really CARE what you do in your sleeper while OFF DUTY.

Your point? That same poster (assuming you're talking about Steve Booth) also had a DOT officer tell him he didn't need to submit to drug tests - something which is completely and utterly wrong.

He might ALSO find it interesting that the O/O, with whom I butthead every day, says that HE was also told by the DOT that ALL time when he is unladen and off duty should be logged on line 1.

I guess there ARE some DOT LEO's out there that understand the "spirit" of the regs. In fact, other than MythBuster and the Rev, it seems that ALL are in accordance.

Perhaps they simply don't know the regulations. I once argued with a DOT officer for hours that I could split my sleeper berth time. He kept getting stuck on the word "consecutive". I also argued with a DOT officer once that I wasn't required to "drop down" a line in my logbook; rather, the only thing the regs required was that I draw a horizontal line.

DOT officers don't usually know all the regulations. They only know the regulations that they deal with on a regular basis. Since the area in question is something that isn't normally an issue, it comes as no surprise that the responses by professionals are all over the board. That certainly doesn't make you correct simply because you want to pretend that it is a "spirit" of a regulation. Besides, it's up to a judge to interpret the regulation. It is only up to an officer to decide whether to charge you with the infraction.

If subpara (4) of the On Duty reg is NOT subordinate to the Topic Sentence of that reg, then NO O/O can touch his truck while at home on a reset (or even DRIVE it there,) NO company driver could be allowed the exception of "carrying" alcohol while DRIVING his unladen truck to a motel for the night (or while at home,) and NO "local" driver can be considered off duty while eating his lunch IN HIS DAYCAB even though he has written permission from his carrier.

But, there are MANY regs that address JUST such scenarios.

Show me one for each of those. I dare you.

While there is not ONE reg that says ALL time (not spent in the sleeper) on or in a CMV must be logged as ON DUTY.....

There certainly is. And it's been cited over and over again. There is a very specific exemption to the regulation, which you are attempting to make extremely broad.

There is also the guidance that says that a TEAM co-driver cannot log "off duty time" while sitting in the passenger seat of a vehicle that is IN OPERATION. Which begs the question of whether he could log it as such if the vehicle was NOT "in operation" (which I believe he CAN.)

There is no regulation to support your belief.

I ALSO stand by my conviction that the FMCSR's clearly address the LEGALITY of alcohol, and therefore their SPECIFIC address to the issue which includes their SPECIFIC regulations concerning BAC levels for a driver of a CMV "in operation" and the 4 hour bottle to throttle rule.

Actually, the guidance addresses it very vaguely, at least in the direction you are trying to take it.

And I stand by my contention that the regs imply the DOT position that a CMV that is PARKED in a truckstop, with brakes popped and the driver unable (or not expected) to be able to legally MOVE that vehicle for at LEAST 10 hours,) satisfies the condition of OFF DUTY and "relieved of all responsibility for work" during which time... the subparas of the ON Duty reg do NOT apply!

If the driver is off duty, then he is beyond the scope of the regulations (and not governed by the FMCSA). Since sleeper berth time is regulated by the FMCSA, the driver cannot be considered Off Duty.

And, for what it's worth, I believe that the ambiguous "state laws" concerning "physical control" do NOT apply. That MAY be an arguable point, but I don't care to argue it (IF you are in a truckstop.)

State laws which are more restrictive than the FMCSA regulations (which are the base line) certainly do apply.

It is always possible that I could be WRONG! If so.... that would put me in the "good company" of many others on this board. It is up to each of us to make up our own minds. But, I have no need to "twist" the regs to fit some idea that I have. Think what you WILL of me, but... I seek only the truth and the FACTS.

You seek spirit and ghosts and things that aren't really there.

[Rev.Vassago]

BTW, by digging up the old threads, you are inviting response.

[golfhobo]

BTW, by digging up the old threads, you are inviting response.

I was NEVER one who questioned bringing up old threads. It's not my fault that the most recent ones are bull****. I MISS the old "serious" discussions we had on CAD. You will NEVER hear me WHINE about any response I may have "invited" by digging up an old post.

YOUR "responses" notwithstanding, I hope to invite the questions and comments by the NEWER members here who might not have gone 5 pages back in their searches.

That is part of my "job" here. And, BTW.... it wasn't MY idea.