Dear Golfhobo, Part 8: THE RESULTS ARE IN!

[Rev.Vassago]

Quick question for Rev or anyone else who was driving under the old, old rules or the old, new rules:

When did the 5 and 5 spleeper option end? i.e: which set of rules allowed that? From what I can tell, it was allowed under the 2003 rules but not under the 2005 rules.

The 5 and 5 ended with the 2005 rule change. Teams were up in arms about it too.

[belpre122]

Hey Hobo. A bit off topic, I know. Last time that we were privileged with so much of your time, you were briefly unemployed. Are you working now?

[Rev.Vassago]

Now that I've thought about it more, the 5+5 may have been phased out sooner than that, because there was the old 8+2 rule prior to the current one.

[Roadhog]

Mike M.....Mike M....Mike..................



Say it!..........SAY IT !!!!

[Rev.Vassago]

Mike M.....Mike M....Mike..................



Say it!..........SAY IT !!!!

You gotta give the guy a break. He's busy imposing fines on carriers. :wink:

[golfhobo]

Hey Hobo. A bit off topic, I know. Last time that we were privileged with so much of your time, you were briefly unemployed. Are you working now?

Yeah, Bel. Mee likee vellee much!

I'll tell you one thing.... you really got to watch that 70 rule when you're solo!! I was driving along last weekend and decided I better count 'em up, so to speak, and ......OOPS! I ended up stopping in GA for awhile to let my logbook catch up from Alabama!

The last couple of days, I've been waiting for my CAC to get fixed. Now that I'm being paid percentage, that extra 1 or more mph really makes a difference!

Should be heading out again tomorrow. The delay might have been beneficial, cuz I think he was looking at a load going to Houston had I gone out yesterday.

[golfhobo]

Now that I've thought about it more, the 5+5 may have been phased out sooner than that, because there was the old 8+2 rule prior to the current one.

Yeah, I'm really starting to get confused now, cuz I can't FIND that "old" 8 and 2 rule. In Mike's post he said:

In regard to the HOS, in the initial HOS rule in 2003 it was mandatory a driver have two hours in the sleeper berth with any eight hour period:

Then, posted the reg from the archives here:

[Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 49, Volume 4]
[Revised as of October 1, 2003]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 49CFR395.1]

[Page 1159-1162]

TITLE 49--TRANSPORTATION

CHAPTER III--FEDERAL MOTOR CARRIER SAFETY ADMINISTRATION,
DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION

PART 395--HOURS OF SERVICE OF DRIVERS--Table of Contents

Sec. 395.1 Scope of rules in this part.

(g) Sleeper berths.

(1) General property-carrying commercial motor vehicle. A driver who
is driving a property-carrying commercial motor vehicle that is equipped with a sleeper berth, as defined in Secs. 395.2 and 393.76 of this subchapter, may accumulate the equivalent of 10 consecutive hours of off-duty time by taking a combination of at least 10 consecutive hours off-duty and sleeper berth time; or by taking two periods of rest in the sleeper berth, providing:

(i) Neither rest period is shorter than two hours;

Which he provided the link to here:

http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/c...le-search.html

Then he said this:

In 2005 when the HOS rules were revised the second two hour sleeper berth was replaced with either two hours off-duty or two hours in the sleeper berth:

The problem is..... that quoted reg, which does indeed seem to be the original wording of the 2003 rule, doesn't mention an 8 hour break. In fact, it seems to say basically 2 S/B breaks on no less than 2 hours each.... or, in other words, the 5 and 5 option.

Perhaps there was some mention of a mandatory 2 hour break in the sleeper during some IFR prior to the Final ruling in 2005.

[Double L]

Hey Hobo I got a title for you and it's "HOS Expert".

[Rev.Vassago]

Hey Hobo I got a title for you and it's "HOS Expert Wannabe".

Fixed.

[golfhobo]

Hey Hobo I got a title for you and it's "HOS Expert".

Oh, I'm sure too many would disagree with that Double L. Besides, I suppose that one is reserved for Myth_Buster.... or so I've been told.

Besides.... I'm not too impressed by "titles."

[Double L]

Hey Hobo I got a title for you and it's "HOS Expert".

Oh, I'm sure too many would disagree with that Double L. Besides, I suppose that one is reserved for Myth_Buster.... or so I've been told.

Besides.... I'm not too impressed by "titles."

I was only trying to break the ice and make some people laugh. :P

[golfhobo]

See what I mean?

[Double L]

I don't think anyone understands the new regulations from the old ones. I know a lot of drivers who were under the old regs don't even get the new regs one bit. Hey Hobo check your pm's, your a tough person to get a hold of but I finally found your hang out.

[Rev.Vassago]

I don't think anyone understands the new regulations from the old ones. I know a lot of drivers who were under the old regs don't even get the new regs one bit.

I'm going to start driving 10 and sleeping 8, and if anyone doesn't like it they can KMA.


And I'm keeping the 34 hour reset. :P

[Double L]

All I know is it's 11 hours driving in a 14 hour period with a 10 hour break as well as a 34 hour restart after 70 hours.

[golfhobo]

I'm going to start driving 10 and sleeping 8, and if anyone doesn't like it they can KMA. :P

I LIKE it, Rev! I REALLY LIKE it!!

[Cuz I sho don't like the alternative!] :shock:

[Myth_Buster]

Besides.... Our disagreement on S/B rules had nothing to do with the old rule that the 2 hour break had to be in the sleeper. You said that if you took a full 10 hour break following an 8 hr S/B break it caused a violation. I'm sure Mike's answer to that would be no, never, ever, ever, never under any set of rules. So give up this claim of extra credit... will ya?

Under the old rule from 2003 the driver would have been required to take a two hour SB period following the 8 hour SB. 10 hours off-duty would not have reset the 11/14 hour clock.

In 2005 the mandatory second SB time from the 2003 rule was removed and replaced with “off-duty or SB.”

Be safe.

[golfhobo]

Okay, I don't know if it is worth it, but I'll try.... and I will remain calm and professional.

First, I'll leave this quote in for reference, but the point is that the original contention was whether or not under CURRENT rules, the Rev's statement about a violation was true. I assumed you (Myth_Buster) would confirm that under the CURRENT rules instead of trying to validate his position under the old rules. But, no matter.

Besides.... Our disagreement on S/B rules had nothing to do with the old rule that the 2 hour break had to be in the sleeper. You said that if you took a full 10 hour break following an 8 hr S/B break it caused a violation. I'm sure Mike's answer to that would be no, never, ever, ever, never under any set of rules. So give up this claim of extra credit... will ya?

I redlettered the part that was wrong in that statement. Under the OLD rules, taking an 8 hour "orphaned" S/B break would be on the clock and cause a violation in most cases. [But, I'm still not giving you extra credit for believing Trooper Dial instead of READING the current regs.] :P

M/B said:

Under the old rule from 2003 the driver would have been required to take a two hour SB period following the 8 hour SB.

Using the link you provided, to the 2003 rules without the changes or updates, there is no mention OF an 8 hour S/B break... only 2 breaks of no less than 2 hours each. (The 5/5 option.) However, we can assume that our driver CHOSE to take an 8 and 2 split (although, 5 in the sleeper would have the same result.) Given that, your statement is true to the extent that the second break was MANDATORY for the purpose of making the first break "off the clock." Without a second break IN THE SLEEPER, the first break would remain on the clock and be calculated into the 14 hour limit. This was changed under the 2005 rule to MANDATE one of the breaks be 8 hours or more, and because that meets the medical evidence and recommendation for restorative sleep, it is now ALWAYS off the clock.

So, in the past, if a driver came on duty and drove 6 broke for 5 in the sleeper and drove for 5 more, he would be up to the 16th hour. IF at this time he went off duty (line 1) instead of the sleeper, the 5 hour sleeper break would NOT be excluded from the 14 hour clock, and he would have been in violation for the last 2 hours of driving. However....

10 hours off-duty would not have reset the 11/14 hour clock.

The regs (old and new) say otherwise. Granted, he would STILL have the 14 hour violation.... but once the full 10 hour break off duty has ocurred, the clocks would be reset.

(iv) The driver may not return to driving subject to the normal
limits under Sec. 395.3 without taking at least 10 consecutive hours off
duty, at least 10 consecutive hours in the sleeper berth, or a
combination of at least 10 consecutive hours off duty and sleeper berth
time.

This is pretty much the same wording as in the new rules, and is what I call "breaking the split." Regardless of whether both sleeper berth breaks were taken (and if not, under the old rules there probably WOULD be a violation incurred,) a full 10 hour break always resets the clocks, and returns the driver to normal driving conditions under 395.3.

The difference is that under the new rules, an 8 hour S/B break is always off the clock.... always excluded from the 14 hour calculation. So if our driver drove 6, broke for 8 in the sleeper, and drove for 5 before taking a full 10 hour break, he would only have the 11 hours against his 14, so no violation before "returning to driving subject to normal limits."

In 2005 the mandatory second SB time from the 2003 rule was removed and replaced with “off-duty or SB.”

This is true provided it is the smaller break, i.e: the other one was the 8 hours IN THE SLEEPER. And there is no requirement that it be the "second" of the two breaks.

I wish I'd had that link to the unadulterated 2003 rules along time ago. I could have ended this particular debate months ago. :wink:


Now.... what about Sam freezing his butt off in Montana??

[Rev.Vassago]

Now.... what about Sam freezing his butt off in Montana??

Check your other thread to be dazzled at how wrong you really are....

[HWD]

RebelDarlin,

Shouldn't the last line on the sign in your avatar be "Hangers On"?