Dear golfhobo,

[Rev.Vassago]

I was reading the latest issue of The Trucker while I was taking a dump, and I came across an article that I know you would enjoy. Since you don't have a truck that I can duct tape the article to your windshield, I figured I'd be nice and post it verbatim right off the page.

It is a question and answer section regarding the FMCSA rules, and this one was answered by Monty Dial, a Senior Trooper for the Texas Highway Patrol, and an expert* on the FMCSA regulations:

WAITING IN LINE

Q: When I pull into fuel and there's a line of trucks, can I go to line 1 (Off Duty) while I'm waiting to get to the fuel pumps?

A: Provided by Senior Trooper Monty Dial, Texas Highway Patrol, Commercial Vehicle Enforcement Division, Garland, Texas

Any time you are seated at the controls of the vehicle, you are driving. The only way you can get off to line 3 is to step out of the vehicle while waiting. If you do this, you can now show On Duty not Driving (line 4). The only way to show line 1 is if you are relieved of all your responsibilities.

You'll notice that he said "ANY TIME", not "ANY TIME EXCEPT WHEN YOU ARE ON A 10 HOUR BREAK OR A 34 HOUR RESET".

Since you believe that the "spirit" of the regulations (some magical ghost who governs the FMCSA, I assume) says that you can log off duty time while at the controls of the CMV, you will notice that you are once again wrong.


*please note, the term "expert" as used applies to anyone with more knowledge and experience with FMCSA regulations than you have, which pretty much includes everyone.



golfhobo; providing incorrect FMCSA regs interpretation since 2005.

[matcat]

I was reading the latest issue of The Trucker while I was taking a dump, and I came across an article that I know you would enjoy. Since you don't have a truck that I can duct tape the article to your windshield, I figured I'd be nice and post it verbatim right off the page.

It is a question and answer section regarding the FMCSA rules, and this one was answered by Monty Dial, a Senior Trooper for the Texas Highway Patrol, and an expert* on the FMCSA regulations:

WAITING IN LINE

Q: When I pull into fuel and there's a line of trucks, can I go to line 1 (Off Duty) while I'm waiting to get to the fuel pumps?

A: Provided by Senior Trooper Monty Dial, Texas Highway Patrol, Commercial Vehicle Enforcement Division, Garland, Texas

Any time you are seated at the controls of the vehicle, you are driving. The only way you can get off to line 3 is to step out of the vehicle while waiting. If you do this, you can now show On Duty not Driving (line 4). The only way to show line 1 is if you are relieved of all your responsibilities.

You'll notice that he said "ANY TIME", not "ANY TIME EXCEPT WHEN YOU ARE ON A 10 HOUR BREAK OR A 34 HOUR RESET".

Since you believe that the "spirit" of the regulations (some magical ghost who governs the FMCSA, I assume) says that you can log off duty time while at the controls of the CMV, you will notice that you are once again wrong.


*please note, the term "expert" as used applies to anyone with more knowledge and experience with FMCSA regulations than you have, which pretty much includes everyone.



golfhobo; providing incorrect FMCSA regs interpretation since 2005.

I find it a bit scary Rev that you actually think about Golfhobo while your pants are down...

[Rev.Vassago]

I find it a bit scary Rev that you actually think about Golfhobo while your pants are down...

Hey, it gets lonely out here....

[BigDiesel]

I find it a bit scary Rev that you actually think about Golfhobo while your pants are down...

Hey, it gets lonely out here....

I hope you do not do what neil Diamond does when he is lonely on the road...... :shock:


http://www.jibjab.com/view/99261

[Rat]

How were you logging this particular time? Since you were (unloading) and were involved with the process then it may have been on duty not driving (line 4).

[Rev.Vassago]

How were you logging this particular time? Since you were (unloading) and were involved with the process then it may have been on duty not driving (line 4).

Line 6 - On Duty (stinking up the room)

[golfhobo]

I was reading the latest issue of The Trucker while I was taking a dump,

You know? I've never understood people who like to sit on toilets to do their reading. I usually just sit down, do my business, clean up, and leave. You must be eating WAY too much cheese! [But I do read that particular periodical religiously, including the ask the law section.]

... and this one was answered by Monty Dial, a Senior Trooper for the Texas Highway Patrol, and an expert* on the FMCSA regulations:

I do not question Trooper Dial's experience. However, I HAVE found an inaccuracy on Ol' Blue in an answer by one of the OTHER participants. And then there are those "experts" at the FMCSA that Rat talked to. But, I am not disagreeing with the answer HERE. As usual, you and I just comprehend the answer differently. (BTW, during a recent roadside inspection by a Texas DOT trooper, he admitted to not understanding ALL of the regs. But that's neither here nor there.)

WAITING IN LINE

Q: When I pull into fuel and there's a line of trucks, can I go to line 1 (Off Duty) while I'm waiting to get to the fuel pumps?

A: Provided by Senior Trooper Monty Dial, Texas Highway Patrol, Commercial Vehicle Enforcement Division, Garland, Texas

Any time you are seated at the controls of the vehicle, you are driving.

This is IMHO specifically directed at the question of being in line at the pumps. The REGULATIONS actually include the term "in operation" which HE left out. Obviously, a truck in a fuel island line is IN OPERATION..... not PARKED. And for one in operation, I agree with his statement. Furthermore, you and I AND Trooper Dial know that the regs AT BEST would only require sitting at the controls of one NOT IN OPERATION as line 4.... NOT line 3.

The only way you can get off of(sic) line 3 is to step out of the vehicle while waiting. If you do this, you can now show On Duty not Driving (line 4).

Again, we're in complete agreement. Since the vehicle is essentially STILL "in operation," a driver standing outside, INSIDE the truckstop, or FUELING the truck is considered on-duty not driving.

The only way to show line 1 is if you are relieved of all your responsibilities.

Here is the difference between the way you and I interpret his meaning. I say that he is still answering the question of HOW or IF a driver at the controls could log line 1..... ONLY if he is parked, and ROD. So, he IS saying that, IF you are relieved of all your responsibilities (obviously meaning parked and on either a 10 hour or lunch break or reset) you MAY log line 1..... OFF DUTY. But NEVER when the truck is in line to be fueled.

You'll notice that he said "ANY TIME", not "ANY TIME EXCEPT WHEN YOU ARE ON A 10 HOUR BREAK OR A 34 HOUR RESET".

I noted it, and corrected it to include the term "in operation" which is FOUND in the actual reg for the definition of DRIVING TIME. There was actually a "fight" over this between the FMCSA and several companies, forcing the FMCSA to clarify their intention by adding the words IN OPERATION. However, he DID go on to say that WHEN you are ROD, you can log line 1. He said, in his last sentence that the ONLY time you can log line 1 is when ROD. He did NOT specify that one had to be out of the truck, in the sleeper, or NOT at the controls. And he was ANSWERING a question from a guy talking about being AT the controls of a CMV "in operation."

Since you believe that the "spirit" of the regulations (some magical ghost who governs the FMCSA, I assume) says that you can log off duty time while at the controls of the CMV, you will notice that you are once again wrong.

This is the problem I have found with Ol' Blue. When asked a particular question, they often ONLY answer that person's particular question as opposed to explaining the entire meaning or spirit of the reg. OTHER times, they answer a guy's question by QUOTING the reg and NOT interpreting it in a way to address the specific question. It is a useful site and service. But, I find that it is NOT all encompassing. I have high respect for Trooper Dial, but I accredit NO MAN with being infallible.... not even the POPE. In this VERY quote, Trooper Dial is not completely accurate in his description of "Driving Time" except if you consider that he was addressing his answer to the SPECIFICS of the question.

I believe the recent quote on here was, "Amateurs built the Ark, Experts built the Titanic." Which one sunk?

Another question (probably not a good one for you) do you believe in Creation or Evolution? Darwin was the foremost "expert" in evolution. A bunch of fishermen and laymen were the experts on Christianity.

*please note, the term "expert" as used applies to anyone with more knowledge and experience with FMCSA regulations than you have, which pretty much includes everyone.

I'm not questioning Trooper Dial's expertise with the regs. However, he may have a high school education, and failed English Composition the way you obviously did. He certainly was not "complete" in his quoting of the Driving Time reg to this questioner. I WOULD have been.

I KNOW you think you have "gigged" me, but I don't agree. IF you want to discuss it in a rational tone, I will do the same. But, you could start by dropping the insults.... now.

The fact is, there is NO way for a driver at the controls of a CMV in a fuel line to log anything BUT line 1. But, his final sentence said, the only way to show line 1 is to be ROD..... and he gave NO particulars about your personal physical location, AND his entire response was to a guy who was talking about being behind the controls of a CMV.

Go back and re-read the entire Q&A but taking out everything except the original question and the final sentence of his answer. I know you will say this is cheating or misleading.... but, it is actually an accepted method of Composition editing known as "paragraph summation."

golfhobo; providing incorrect FMCSA regs interpretation since 2005.

Even IF true.... that is 9 years less than YOU have been doing so.

[BigDiesel]

Trooper : Here is a logbook violation.

BigDiesel : No way !!!!

Trooper : Yes way !!!

BigDiesel : But I am following the gospel interpretation of the FMCSA regs by a guy on the internet, and he is never wrong and knows every reg !!!!

Trooper : This so called expert.... does he go by the name Golfhobo with a "b" ?????

BigDiesel : Hell yes !!!!

Trooper : Here is your logbook violation..... We have heard about this dimwitted so called FMCSA Reg expert. We need your fine payment now.

[Rev.Vassago]

Any time you are seated at the controls of the vehicle, you are driving.

That statement is absolute, and matches the definition of "On duty" time in the FMCSA regulations. On Duty time includes any time at the controls of a CMV. It says nothing about whether or not you are operating those controls - just that you are at them (the whole "in or upon a CMV except when you are in a sleeper berth" thing).

There are no "spirits" present in the FMCSA regulations, even during Halloween. If the regulations say something, and/or the FMCSA has put guidance for that reg, and/or the courts have provided interpretation of that reg, those three things are absolute until one of those three things changes. You may believe that the authors of the regulation "intended" it to mean something, but until there is legal precedent to support it, that "intention" is irrelevant.

BTW, the way Trooper Dial worded the sentence you added the (sic) line to was correct. The error in typing was mine. So if you want to bash someone's grammar, bash my mistake of putting the word "to" instead of the word "of".

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go grab the latest edition of the Pilot magazine and head back to the bathroom to check the coupons.

[Rat]

What is this lunch break thing we speak about? How can someone take an off duty lunch break and not have it go against their 14 hour day?


What the heck am I doing ont he net anyway, I got equipment to install in my pickup.

[matcat]

What is this lunch break thing we speak about? How can someone take an off duty lunch break and not have it go against their 14 hour day?


What the heck am I doing ont he net anyway, I got equipment to install in my pickup.

It will count on your 14, but not your 70 .

[golfhobo]

Rev said:

Any time you are seated at the controls of the vehicle, you are driving.

That statement is absolute, and matches the definition of "On duty" time in the FMCSA regulations. On Duty time includes any time at the controls of a CMV. It says nothing about whether or not you are operating those controls - just that you are at them (the whole "in or upon a CMV except when you are in a sleeper berth" thing).

Once again YOU are wrong, and Trooper dial is either wrong or just not thinking clearly while answering a specific question, as I noted.

From the Regulation of Definitiions....

§395.2 Definitions

Driving time means all time spent at the driving controls of a commercial motor vehicle in operation.

THAT statement is absolute. Trooper Dial's statement is NOT.

And, the results of the "fight" I mentioned earlier is this:

Question 26: Is time spent operating controls in a CMV to perform an auxiliary, non-driving function (e.g., lifting a loaded container, compacting waste, etc.) considered driving time? Does the location of the controls have a bearing on the answer?

Guidance: The location of the controls does have a bearing on the answer. §395.2 defines "driving time" as all time spent at the driving controls of a CMV in operation. If a driver, seated at the driving controls of the vehicle, is able to simultaneously perform the driving and auxiliary function (for example, one hand on the steering wheel and one hand on a control mechanism), the time spent performing the auxiliary function must be recorded as "driving time."

If (however) a driver, seated at the driving controls of the vehicle, is unable to simultaneously perform the driving and auxiliary function, the time spent performing the auxiliary function may be recorded as "on-duty not driving time."

This is a clear (okay somewhat muddy) example of a driver ON DUTY at the controls who can log his time on line 4. The pertinent fact is that the CMV is in SOME kind "of operation." The regs make NO claim that a driver who is ROD by his employer, and therefore OFF DUTY, has any responsibility to record time at the controls of a CMV NOT IN OPERATION as either line 3 or 4.

By definining Driving Time, they are relating to ON DUTY time. And this guidance even shows that not ALL time at the controls of a CMV in operation are necessarily considered "Driving Time."

There are no "spirits" present in the FMCSA regulations, even during Halloween. If the regulations say something, and/or the FMCSA has put guidance for that reg, and/or the courts have provided interpretation of that reg, those three things are absolute until one of those three things changes. You may believe that the authors of the regulation "intended" it to mean something, but until there is legal precedent to support it, that "intention" is irrelevant.

There WAS actually a lawsuit, and legal precedent established as part of this fight. There was MORE to it, in that SOME concrete mixer trucks are operated from the driver control seat, while others were operated from outside the truck. It was not "fair" to some companies that their drivers had to log line 3 while others could log line 4. Hence... the insertion of the words IN OPERATION. The fact that they did not correct ALL the pertinent regs to include this phrase is not MY fault, but that of the FMCSA. Something the government OFTEN fails to do.

BTW, the way Trooper Dial worded the sentence you added the (sic) line to was correct. The error in typing was mine. So if you want to bash someone's grammar, bash my mistake of putting the word "to" instead of the word "of".

I made no allusion to whose error it was, and I don't care! I simply corrected it to make everything make more sense. I guess you could say I "clarified" it! I NEVER bashed his grammar, nor anyones. I simply questioned his AND YOUR comprehension of or explanation of the regs.

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go grab the latest edition of the Pilot magazine and head back to the bathroom to check the coupons.

TWICE in one day?? You got the Schlitz?? Might I suggest you pass on the Pilot magazine and read something more useful, like the REGULATIONS book??

[Rev.Vassago]

By definining Driving Time, they are relating to ON DUTY time. And this guidance even shows that not ALL time at the controls of a CMV in operation are necessarily considered "Driving Time."

This would be the point where I pull out the classic golfhobo line and state that "Driving Time" is the same as "On Duty" time, and that there is no difference between the two. Since the regs state that all time in or upon a CMV except time in a sleeper berth is On Duty time, there is no distinction between the two.

There WAS actually a lawsuit, and legal precedent established as part of this fight. There was MORE to it, in that SOME concrete mixer trucks are operated from the driver control seat, while others were operated from outside the truck. It was not "fair" to some companies that their drivers had to log line 3 while others could log line 4. Hence... the insertion of the words IN OPERATION. The fact that they did not correct ALL the pertinent regs to include this phrase is not MY fault, but that of the FMCSA. Something the government OFTEN fails to do.

But they are still logging it as On Duty.

I NEVER bashed his grammar, nor anyones. I simply questioned his AND YOUR comprehension of or explanation of the regs.

Yes you did.

However, he may have a high school education, and failed English Composition the way you obviously did.

[golfhobo]

This would be the point where I pull out the classic golfhobo line and state that "Driving Time" is the same as "On Duty" time, and that there is no difference between the two. Since the regs state that all time in or upon a CMV except time in a sleeper berth is On Duty time, there is no distinction between the two.

There certainly IS, regardless of whether subpara (4) is subordinate to the Topic sentence (which it is) that states that ON DUTY time is all time when a driver is NOT OFF DUTY and ROD and "responsibilities." Either way, "I" never said that Driving time is the same as ON DUTY time. Although any time spent DRIVING is obviously ON DUTY. WTF are you saying here?

But they are still logging it as On Duty.

Yes, but they no longer have to log in as DRIVING TIME, just because they are "at the controls" and the CMV is IN OPERATION.

[Like I said, this was a somewhat muddy discussion, and you are not up to it. Heck.... neither am I at the moment! ]

I NEVER bashed his grammar, nor anyones. I simply questioned his AND YOUR comprehension of or explanation of the regs.

Yes you did.[/quote]

No I didn't.

However, he may have a high school education, and failed English Composition the way you obviously did.

That's questioning his COMPREHENSION skills, as I do YOURS. Grammar and Comprehension are two different things! I"m not even really questioning his comprehension of the REGS! I'm concerned with his comprehension of the QUESTION the guy asked, and his COMPOSITION in answering it.

But, actually..... I am doing NEITHER as much as I am questioning YOUR comprehension of the regs AND his answer to the question! You "pick and choose" certain phrases by him AND the regs, and think they imply a total and comprehensive answer. But, they do not.

If Subpara (4) was NOT subordinate to the topic sentence of that paragraph, in which it clearly states that ON DUTY time is all time OTHER than OFF DUTY time, and was not part of a list showing what WAS included in ON DUTY time as so stipulated, it would have a PARAGRAPH of its own like the definition of Driving Time. But it doesn't! It is part of a LIST of activities that are considered on duty, when a driver is BETWEEN the beginning of his duty window and the END of it, where he is ROD.

[Rev.Vassago]

However, he may have a high school education, and failed English Composition the way you obviously did.

That's questioning his COMPREHENSION skills, as I do YOURS. Grammar and Comprehension are two different things!

Composition is not the same thing as comprehension. Hooked on Phonics will work for you!

[Rat]

What is this lunch break thing we speak about? How can someone take an off duty lunch break and not have it go against their 14 hour day?


What the heck am I doing ont he net anyway, I got equipment to install in my pickup.

It will count on your 14, but not your 70 .

That is what I thought


Oh well back to reading the cat fight again.

[Double R]

Hooked on Phonics will work for you!

HOOKED ON PHONICS

[golfhobo]

However, he may have a high school education, and failed English Composition the way you obviously did.

That's questioning his COMPREHENSION skills, as I do YOURS. Grammar and Comprehension are two different things!

Composition is not the same thing as comprehension. Hooked on Phonics will work for you!

Well, you got ONE thing right tonight!

But, comprehension is part OF Composition. There are no classes in High School titled English Comprehension. (At least not back in "my" day! ) They are called English Composition. Because to COMPREHEND English, you must understand the COMPOSTION of it.

The two skills ARE tested separately, however, on SAT tests and the like.

And there is definitely a difference between them. But, one learns English Comprehension by studying English Composition. And they are taught in the same class.

But, enough about your foreign language skills! Explain to me how you got confused and quoted Reg 398 (Transportation of Migrant Workers) and STILL managed to misinterpret a reg concerning the INTERVALS between rest stops as one that defined the limits OF such rest stops! :shock:

[Rev.Vassago]

I got as far as

Well,

and I started to nod off....

[golfhobo]

Apparently, the same thing you did in English class in school! :shock:

And, it shows. Time and time again!