Alcohol and OTR... Part Deux!

[Rev.Vassago]

There is no language in FMCSA regulations stating that an off duty driver may not locate himself/herself in the cab of a commercial motor vehicle.

395.2 Definitions

On-duty time shall include:

(4) All time, other than driving time, in or upon any commercial motor vehicle except time spent resting in a sleeper berth;

Even a driver who has been relieved of duty is required to go on-duty (not driving) when entering the cab:

Question 13: What is the duty status of a co-driver (truck)who is riding seated next to the driver?
Guidance: On-duty (not driving).

[matcat]

Even a driver who has been relieved of duty is required to go on-duty (not driving) when entering the cab:

Yeah and in reality how many drivers actually follow this?

[Rev.Vassago]

Yeah and in reality how many drivers actually follow this?

More than likely, none.

[stonefly]

Even a driver who has been relieved of duty is required to go on-duty (not driving) when entering the cab:

Quote:
Question 13: What is the duty status of a co-driver (truck)who is riding seated next to the driver?
Guidance: On-duty (not driving).

Are we talking about team drivers, or solo? The FMCSA has ruled that team drivers must log on duty when riding in the cab.

If this discussion is about teams, please ignore my former post.

Originally Posted by stonefly
There is no language in FMCSA regulations stating that an off duty driver may not locate himself/herself in the cab of a commercial motor vehicle.

Originally Posted by Rev.Vassago

395.2 Definitions

On-duty time shall include:

(4) All time, other than driving time, in or upon any commercial motor vehicle except time spent resting in a sleeper berth;

Okay, now I think I realize where the disagreement arises. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Let's first look at language in the regulations about which there appears to be general agreement:

395.2 Definitions

On-duty time shall include:

(4) All time, other than driving time, in or upon any commercial motor vehicle except time spent resting in a sleeper berth;

Yes, unless I'm incorrect here, as well, there is general agreement on this section of the language in the regulations.

Perhaps the problem arises in this part:

On duty time means all time from the time a driver begins to work or is required to be in readiness to work until the time the driver is relieved from work and all responsibility for performing work. On duty time shall include:

I read quite a bit on this forum in regard to this topic, and I realize there is a stumbling block somewhere in reaching agreement on this matter. I believe it is important to reach an agreement, because HOS rules and their methods of enforcement affect us in an increasingly harsh manner. One thing I have learned in my 62 years is that just when I think I'm right, and can't be wrong, I'm wrong. So, in the hope that I'm wrong, surely someone with greater comprehension skills than my own will point out my error, and I will be able to rest on this matter.

I think the best thing for me to do is reveal the exact point where I am having trouble, and then someone might step forward here and assist me. Please excuse me, but for the sake of clarity, I'll repeat the above phrase and I will try to explain just how it is perhaps confounding me:

On duty time means all time from the time a driver begins to work or is required to be in readiness to work until the time the driver is relieved from work and all responsibility for performing work. On duty time shall include:

You see, I am construing the language to infer that on duty time ends when a driver is relieved from work and all responsibility for performing work. I am also construing the language to state that on duty time only means all time from the time a driver begins to work or is required to be in readiness to work until the time a driver is relieved from work and all responsibility for performing work. I believe this section is where I'm having my problem.

I have no problem agreeing with the part that states:

395.2 Definitions

On-duty time shall include:

(4) All time, other than driving time, in or upon any commercial motor vehicle except time spent resting in a sleeper berth;

I know I have already stated that there seems to be an agreement on this part of the regulations. Please excuse me for repeating it for the sake of clarity.

What I'm hoping to accomplish by these repetitions is to assure that I understand this part of the regulations, and that I realize my lack of comprehension must be rooted in confusion over some other part. If I can possibly make it clear that I do not need to have this section:

395.2 Definitions

On-duty time shall include:

(4) All time, other than driving time, in or upon any commercial motor vehicle except time spent resting in a sleeper berth;

of the regulations repeated to me, then perhaps we can concentrate on the part of the regulations where I am having my trouble.

Again, this is the part where I am confounded:

On duty time means all time from the time a driver begins to work or is required to be in readiness to work until the time the driver is relieved from work and all responsibility for performing work. On duty time shall include:

For some reason, every time I read this, I get the idea that on duty time ends at the time the driver is relieved from work and all responsibility for performing work. I do realize that the above section of the regulations is followed by this part:

On-duty time shall include:

(4) All time, other than driving time, in or upon any commercial motor vehicle except time spent resting in a sleeper berth;

However, as previously stated, there doesn't appear to be any disagreement over that part. Therefore, someone with better comprehension skills than my own will graciously look at this part,

On duty time means all time from the time a driver begins to work or is required to be in readiness to work until the time the driver is relieved from work and all responsibility for performing work. On duty time shall include:

and assist me in realizing just where it is that I'm losing track of plainly stated words in a grammatically correct, well constructed sentence, offered to me in the English language, my first language. A lo mejor, digame en español. The fact is, I want to understand this to the point where I'd be grateful to have it explained to me in any language, and I'd try to learn that language just to get an understanding of the problem here. I can't seem to grasp this in English.

I can't get over the idea that on duty time extends only until the time the driver is relieved from work and all responsibility for performing work. That is where I'm having trouble. The problem is, I'm afraid that when I ask for help on that part of the regulations, somebody will point to the section where there appears to be general agreement, namely this part,

On-duty time shall include:

(4) All time, other than driving time, in or upon any commercial motor vehicle except time spent resting in a sleeper berth;

and that doesn't help me at all. I can understand that part.

This is the part where I'm having trouble:

On duty time means all time from the time a driver begins to work or is required to be in readiness to work until the time the driver is relieved from work and all responsibility for performing work. On duty time shall include:

I am confounded by the fact that on duty time only continues until the time the driver is relieved from work and all responsibility for performing work.

If on duty time only continues until the time the driver is relieved from work and all responsibility for performing work, then why can't a driver be off duty, sitting in the cab of the truck, of his/her own free will, knowing he/she has the liberty to pursue activities of his/her own choosing and to leave the premises where the vehicle is situated. Please note that to pursue and to leave are infinitives functioning as adjectives modifying the noun, liberty.

I'd like to get this settled, because the rules are harsh enough without them being enforced in situations where they do not apply. A driver should feel confident that he/she is not a sitting duck for an enforcement officer while that driver is doing something that should be a natural activity, like sitting in the cab of a truck eating a sandwich. I realize that this topic originated on the subject of alcohol, but it appears that even logging off duty to eat lunch while sitting in the cab of a truck is being interpreted as an illegal activity. How could free men and women live under such rules and still call themselves brave. Perhaps America is not the "Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave?" Is that where I'm making my mistake? If there is a rule that I can't be off duty and eat lunch while sitting in the cab of my truck, then it seems to me that the next course of action is to get rid of that rule. If the FMCSA won't drop the rule, then perhaps we need to get rid of the FMCSA. However, I don't see where there is such a rule.

I understand this:

395.2 Definitions

On-duty time shall include:

(4) All time, other than driving time, in or upon any commercial motor vehicle except time spent resting in a sleeper berth;

What I cannot grasp in the regulations is that it is illegal for a driver to log off duty, sit in the cab and eat lunch, when it appears that on duty time only extends

until the time the driver is relieved from work and all responsibility for performing work.

I just got an idea. If the idea is a worthwhile idea, it might lead to an agreement.

How about this: On duty time shall include a whole bunch of things, and all those things end at the same time on duty time ends!

I just got another idea.

How about this: Off duty time shall include, among millions of other possibilities, all time spent in or upon a commercial vehicle, after on duty time has ended. This would have been a GREAT sentence to include in the regulations. They can't do something like that though. The law being the law, if they did anything like that, they'd have to list those millions of other possibilities.

Regulations are written in a different manner.

The above ideas are just there as food for thought, to shed more sunlight on the subject, to encourage another peek at the problem, to open another avenue for seeking a solution.

[stonefly]

Originally Posted by Rev.Vassago
Even a driver who has been relieved of duty is required to go on-duty (not driving) when entering the cab:

Originally Posted by matcat
Yeah and in reality how many drivers actually follow this?

Originally Posted by Rev.Vassago
More than likely, none.

Never mind. Forget it. No problem.



stonefly

[Rev.Vassago]

I understand what you are saying, stonefly, but I simply disagree that a driver who is taking his required resting period has been relieved of all duty by the motor carrier. If that were the case, then the driver could log sleeper berth time as Off Duty time. But the regs specifically state that a driver cannot do that.

For that matter, if a driver could log time in or upon a CMV as off duty time, then the personal conveyance exemption would become redundant, and wouldn't even be needed. After all, the driver would only have to claim that they were relieved of duty, and they could drive wherever they wanted to. But the exemption is not that broad. It regulates what activity even counts as "personal conveyance". While there are some that believe that "personal conveyance" should include driving to and from a repair shop for maintenance, the regulations make no such distinction, because driving to a repair shop for maintenance is not personal conveyance. Just as sitting in the cab of a CMV eating lunch is not personal conveyance. Just as sitting in the driver's seat at the controls of a CMV is not personal conveyance.

The regulations are very specific as to what activities can be logged as off duty while in a CMV. Those activities are:

-personal conveyance

That's it. That is the only activity that the FMCSA has stated exempts the definition of On Duty time while in or upon a CMV in 395.2.

[golfhobo]

Well... WTF! Now IE7 has screwed me out of half of my post! I HATE computers!

Anyways.... here's what I SAVED before I got screwed:

Rev.Vassago said:

I understand what you are saying, stonefly,

Do you? Are you clear that he is being sarcastic? Is it obvious to you that he, too, is tired of your repetition of subpara (4)? Are you "getting" his comprehension of the "spirit" of the regs? ... His CLEAR understanding of what is rational (and intended) and what is not?

but I simply disagree that a driver who is taking his required resting period has been relieved of all duty by the motor carrier.

This despite the fact that I have several times quoted the reg that says a line should be drawn on line 2 for all OFF DUTY time spent in a sleeper? And...

*Question 30: If a driver is required repeatedly to respond to satellite or similar communications received during his or her sleeper berth period, does this activity affect a driver’s duty status?

Guidance: Yes. The driver cannot be required to do any work for the motor carrier during sleeper berth time. A driver who is required to access a communications system for the purpose of reading messages from the carrier, responding to certain messages (either verbally or by typing a message), or otherwise acknowledging them, is performing work.

If that were the case, then the driver could log sleeper berth time as Off Duty time. But the regs specifically state that a driver cannot do that.

It's not so much that he CAN'T (although I agree that he is directed to log it differently).... it's that they provide a different "line" for that particular aspect of OFF DUTY time.... for the SOLE purpose of meeting the 8 hour requirement that combines with the 2 hour break to conform to Split logging. Daycab drivers don't even NEED this line on their grid. If sleeper berth time were NOT considered off duty, then it wouldn't be part of the required 10 hours (combined) off duty time required before restarting (or continuing) the 11 hour driving clock.

You are under some misguided impression that sleeper berth time is still somehow considered as on duty. This is categorically NOT true. If it WERE, then a driver of an explosive laden vehicle could be IN THE SLEEPER and still be considered as "attending" his vehicle.... but, the regs say he CANNOT.

For that matter, if a driver could log time in or upon a CMV as off duty time, then the personal conveyance exemption would become redundant, and wouldn't even be needed. After all, the driver would only have to claim that they were relieved of duty, and they could drive wherever they wanted to.

The highlighted phrase IS redundant!

1) the personal conveyance exemption is an exemption to the reg about CARRYING alcohol in a "laden" CMV that is in operation going down the road.

2) it is dependent NOT only on the driver being ROD but also being UNLADEN.

3) however... if a driver IS unladen, and IS off duty, he certainly CAN drive wherever he wants to as long as it is not "under the direction" of his employer. When I was ROD in Rapid City, SD, and dropped my LADEN trailer, I was within my rights to drive my CMV bobtail to see Mt. Rushmore on my OFF DUTY time.

But the exemption is not that broad. It regulates what activity even counts as "personal conveyance".

No it doesn't. It gives "examples" that fit the USUAL practices. It can't list every possibility. It doesn't even list going to Walmart for "supplies." I "BELIEVE" that the FMCSA "assumes" that COMPANY drivers would not be allowed to burn up company fuel for personal reasons while AT HOME on a reset. Using a company truck for a 500 mile mini-vacation would probably not be acceptable to the COMPANY. But, the regs state that they make NO DISTINCTION between a company driver and an owner/operator as a driver. And they state:

an owner-operator using his/her own vehicle in an off-duty status....would normally be outside the scope of this section.

While there are some that believe that "personal conveyance" should include driving to and from a repair shop for maintenance, the regulations make no such distinction, because driving to a repair shop for maintenance is not personal conveyance.

IF it is "at the direction" of a motor carrier.... I agree. Just as using your own POV "at the direction" of a motor carrier to report for a pee test is to be logged as ON DUTY. But, what company asks a driver who is on HOMETIME with a company truck to take it in for maintenance?

Just as sitting in the cab of a CMV eating lunch is not personal conveyance. Just as sitting in the driver's seat at the controls of a CMV is not personal conveyance.

No... it is considered as Relieved of duty, and therefore is not logged as ON DUTY (not driving.)..... as long as the CMV is NOT "in operation."

The regulations are very specific as to what activities can be logged as off duty while in a CMV. Those activities are:

-personal conveyance

That's it. That is the only activity that the FMCSA has stated exempts the definition of On Duty time while in or upon a CMV in 395.2.

No, you are mistaken. You forgot to include "time spent resting in a sleeper berth." You also forgot:

an owner-operator using his/her own vehicle in an off-duty status....would normally be outside the scope of this section.

Rev.... you are hung up on the term "personal conveyance" and even isist there is such an "exemption" reg. Please quote it. The FMCSA doesn't even USE that term. I believe that is a term "WE" have coined to indicate using a CMV for personal reasons while off duty. Why must those personal reasons include "conveying?" Answer: ONLY as it applies to DRIVING the CMV with alcohol on board.

The reg simply states that a driver cannot be ON DUTY.... DRIVE.... or be in physical control (under review) while HE (or some other driver) possesses alcohol.

A BICYCLE is a "personal conveyance." As is your POV. My car is a personal conveyance.... but, it is parked in my driveway and is not MOVING or "in operation." Same goes for my FEET! ALL are "designed" to convey a person or product, and when not on duty, are considered a personal conveyance. But, they do not have to be MOVING to be considered as such by definition.

There IS NO "personal conveyance" reg OR exemption in the regs. There is an exemption to OPERATING a CMV while the driver is in possession of alcohol. And that exemption clearly is based on being OFF DUTY and unladen.

.......

Man, there was SO much more! But, I suppose it would have taxed your attention span anyways!

But.... it was GOOD! I CLOSED the door on you and your "beliefs." I'm sure I can come up with it again once you "argue" with THIS post!

Did I say I HATE computers?

[Rev.Vassago]

Well... WTF! Now IE7 has screwed me out of half of my post! I HATE computers!

It's a shame it didn't take the entire thing.

Rev.... you are hung up on the term "personal conveyance" ............. The FMCSA doesn't even USE that term.

Question 26: If a driver is permitted to use a CMV for personal reasons, how must the driving time be recorded?


Guidance: When a driver is relieved from work and all responsibility for performing work, time spent traveling from a driver’s home to his/her terminal (normal work reporting location), or from a driver’s terminal to his/her home, may be considered off-duty time. Similarly, time spent traveling short distances from a driver’s en route lodgings (such as en route terminals or motels) to restaurants in the vicinity of such lodgings may be considered off-duty time. The type of conveyance used from the terminal to the driver’s home, from the driver’s home to the terminal, or to restaurants in the vicinity of en route lodgings would not alter the situation unless the vehicle is laden. A driver may not operate a laden CMV as a personal conveyance. The driver who uses a motor carrier’s CMV for transportation home, and is subsequently called by the employing carrier and is then dispatched from home, would be on-duty from the time the driver leaves home.


More instances of FMCSA using the term

[Mackman]

Hey.... if Mackman can get away with ti.... why cna't I??

Hey HOBO UFCK YUO!!!!!!

[belpre122]

Well... WTF! Now IE7 has screwed me out of half of my post! I HATE computers!

It's a shame it didn't take the entire thing.

Looks like Microsoft might be on to something here. Software engineered to delete Golfhobo's ramblings before they become public is indeed a valuable public service.

Line 5 forever!!!!