[golfhobo]

Originally Posted by BigDiesel

Here is an easy way to solve this problem...... Don't drink any alcohol in your truck at all, or even drink alcohol while you are out on the road.....

Drink yourself silly while you are on your hometime....

If one " needs " a drink during their time out on the road.... You chose the wrong career then....

Well, I MIGHT agree with you BigD, if your approach wasn't so draconian. Anyone who NEEDS a drink, DOES have a problem.

I like my beer, and when at home I DO kill a few silver soldiers! And, when I was driving TEAM, I rarely had the chance or need to drink while on the road. But, on the few trips that I got to go solo, I DID enjoy a beer or two with my steak dinner in some quaint little "saloon" along the way. And occaissionaly, I got laid over for a reset. So, it's Sunday afternoon and football is on in the truckstop bar. I order some good food, and I have a few beers while watching the game. I don't leave out til the next day, so what's the harm?

IF I hadn't had a team driver who chose to SLEEP all day, I might have preferred to buy a SIX and watch the game in my sleeper! After all..... I'm not made of money, and that is MUCH cheaper! But, on a 10 hour break?? No way. It takes me at least 5 hours to drink a SIX!! And, LIKE YOU, I need my beauty sleep! :lol:

But, I see no problem with a guy having a few beers in his truck (to save money) while on a layover or reset! After all.... don't most of them LIVE in their trucks? Home is where the BEER is! That's what I always say! :lol:

[golfhobo]

Originally Posted by Twilight Flyer

That nails it right there.

Bottom line, while the regulations might say one thing, companies are going to be a lot more anal about it. Alcohol in a truck, whether officially charged or not, is going to be an immediate termination from most companies out there. And if you get terminated for having alcohol in the truck, no company in their right mind is going to hire you.

Leave the booze at home. That 6-pack in the cooler has no business being in your truck.

:lol: :lol: T/F!!! What planet are YOU from? :shock:

Have YOU BEEN to a truckstop lately?? The trashcans are FULL of empties every morning!

Now..... IF a company HAS such a policy, one should HONOR it.... no doubt! And "I" have not worked for "most companies out there," so I don't know how widespread your prudish beliefs and ANAL tendencies are!

But, I CAN tell you that the FMCSA regs are written with REALITY in mind! When a man is OFF DUTY, he is to be "free to leave the premises if desired, and free from MOST obligations to the load!"

Heck.... even the military gets "liberty" now and then! :lol:

That attitude right there.... that you espoused.... is part of the reason so many here HATE the "coolie carriers!" You think you OWN us 24 hours a day!?! :shock:

I'll work HARD for 10-14 hours a day....even MORE, if needed. But, MY "off duty time" is MINE.... and you've got very LITTLE to say about it! MOST "resets" are done BETWEEN loads, so there is nothing really to be responsible for.... and you SURE ain't paying me for my time! :shock:

So, unless you've got a bunch of "beer Nazi's" working for your company, going around to EVERY truckstop to check on your drivers and trucks.... you're JUST gonna have to TRUST your drivers to be responsible but FREE men and women!

IF you CAN'T.... perhaps, YOU have chosen the wrong profession! :shock: :roll: :wink:

[Rat]

Is the sleeper not physically attached to the truck. is the truck not a motor vehical? If so then would not be possible to get a ticket for Physical Control. This is what some people get when they are under the influence and in the vehical with the keys in the ignition or even their pocket.

Some states may have different laws but I know of two O/O that got these tickets in their trucks while parked and under the influence. The ticket pulls the same fine as a DUI and effects your driving record in the same way as a DUI.

[Twilight Flyer]

I'll ignore most of your post because it's nothing more than reactionary blather. You're mad because I don't agree with you.

Here's a word for you.

Tough Shit

Oops, that's two words. Deal with it.

But I will address this and I'll make sure I keep the attitude on par with yours.

So, unless you've got a bunch of "beer Nazi's" working for your company, going around to EVERY truckstop to check on your drivers and trucks.... you're JUST gonna have to TRUST your drivers to be responsible but FREE men and women!

I field, on average, several calls a year from other truckers or 4-wheelers, calling to inform me that they saw one of our drivers picking up a six pack or a bottle of wine or some other adult beverage and taking it out to their truck.

I am one recruiter.

In one company.

Do the math and tell me how anyone needs beer nazis? :roll: There are a lot of drivers out there that agree with me and would rather see their chosen profession cleaned up instead of walked all over by someone that doesn't give a damn what the image is.

Point is, having beer in the truck is stupid. Plain and simple. And my family shares the road with you. I don't want you getting plowed in your sleeper because you had 1 beer too many while watching your football team get destroyed and then had no one around to take your keys away.

Get it?

You want to drink beer? Fine. Drink it at home. Sounds to me like you NEED it. Maybe you NEED to get help.

How's that. Was I as offensive as you?

:roll:

[chubyboy]

ok ok, lets cool it down now guys and gals...

now, i AGREE that one should not be having beer in ones truck except during perhaps some FEW exeptions, and i agree that one shouldnt get plowed or w/e HOWEVER, i would condone a driver having one or two with dinner etc, AS LONG AS they follow all laws and company policies and are responsible about it.

and now to close with a not very funny joke:

a budweiser driver gets pulled over for drinking while operating a CMV, the dot officer asks "What do you think your doing?". the driver replies "Just checking my load officer."

[BigDiesel]

Originally Posted by golfhobo

:lol: :lol: T/F!!! What planet are YOU from? :shock:

Have YOU BEEN to a truckstop lately?? The trashcans are FULL of empties every morning!

Now..... IF a company HAS such a policy, one should HONOR it.... no doubt! And "I" have not worked for "most companies out there," so I don't know how widespread your prudish beliefs and ANAL tendencies are!

But, I CAN tell you that the FMCSA regs are written with REALITY in mind! When a man is OFF DUTY, he is to be "free to leave the premises if desired, and free from MOST obligations to the load!"

Heck.... even the military gets "liberty" now and then! :lol:

That attitude right there.... that you espoused.... is part of the reason so many here HATE the "OTR carriers!" You think you OWN us 24 hours a day!?! :shock:

I'll work HARD for 10-14 hours a day....even MORE, if needed. But, MY "off duty time" is MINE.... and you've got very LITTLE to say about it! MOST "resets" are done BETWEEN loads, so there is nothing really to be responsible for.... and you SURE ain't paying me for my time! :shock:

So, unless you've got a bunch of "beer Nazi's" working for your company, going around to EVERY truckstop to check on your drivers and trucks.... you're JUST gonna have to TRUST your drivers to be responsible but FREE men and women!

IF you CAN'T.... perhaps, YOU have chosen the wrong profession! :shock: :roll: :wink:

Uh.......Unemployed Hobo.... When you are able to rub two nickles together and able to invest thousands of dollars to own a company and operate under your own authority, at that point you can drink a half-rack in your truck.

Until then STFU.....

[Rev.Vassago]

Alright. Now that I have some time to devote to this, I will. I couldn't care less about the touchy-feely crap having to do with "if you need a drink while you're on the road, you have a problem blah blah blah". Let's look at the regs, shall we? (I'll be highlighting the important parts)

§392.5 Alcohol prohibition.

(a) No driver shall—

(a)(1) Use alcohol, as defined in §382.107 of this subchapter, or be under the influence of alcohol, within 4 hours before going on duty or operating, or having physical control of, a commercial motor vehicle; or

(a)(2) Use alcohol, be under the influence of alcohol, or have any measured alcohol concentration or detected presence of alcohol, while on duty, or operating, or in physical control of a commercial motor vehicle; or

(a)(3) Be on duty or operate a commercial motor vehicle while the driver possesses wine of not less than one-half of one per centum of alcohol by volume, beer as defined in 26 U.S.C. 5052(a), of the Internal Revenue Code of 1954, and distilled spirits as defined in section 5002(a)(8 ), of such Code. However, this does not apply to possession of wine, beer, or distilled spirits which are:

(a)(3)(i) Manifested and transported as part of a shipment; or

(a)(3)(ii) Possessed or used by bus passengers.

What does all this mean? You cannot be on duty, or operate a CMV if you have had anything to drink in the prior 4 hours, or if you have any alcohol in your CMV. While some will take this to mean you can have alcohol in the bunk of a CMV while you are off duty, that isn't so. If a cop were to come up to you and want to talk to you, you'd automatically go on duty (not driving), and be in violation. If someone hit your truck, you'd have to go on duty(not driving) and be in violation. IF YOU WERE SITTING IN THE DRIVER'S SEAT HAVING A SMOKE, you would be on duty (not driving), and be in violation.

I will now further stress this by quoting the FMCSA interpretations for this reg:

Question 3: Does the prohibition against carrying alcoholic beverages in §392.5 apply to a driver who uses a company vehicle, for personal reasons, while off-duty?

Guidance: No. For example, an owner-operator using his/her own vehicle in an off-duty status, or a driver using a company truck or tractor for transportation to a motel, restaurant, or home, would normally be outside the scope of this section.

Look at the wording they used - prohibition against carrying alcoholic beverages. That means it is prohibited, or not allowed. The only time you could get away with it is if you were using the truck as personal conveyance, which you cannot do if it is laden.

Another thing you are incorrect about, golfhobo, is the .02 being the minimum. Let's go back to the regs:

§392.5 Intoxicating Beverage

Question 4: Would an alcohol test, performed by an employer pursuant to 49 CFR part 382, with a result greater than 0.00 BAC, but less than 0.02 BAC, establish that a driver was in violation of 49 CFR 392.5(a)(2), having any measured alcohol concentration while on duty?

Guidance: No. The FHWA believes that a 0.02 BAC is the lowest level at which a scientifically accurate breath/blood alcohol concentration can be measured in an employer-based test under part 382. The FHWA further believes that this use of a 0.02 BAC standard is consistent with FHWA's long established zero tolerance standard for alcohol. This guidance in no way impedes or precludes any action taken by a law enforcement official because of a finding that a BAC level was less than 0.02 BAC.

The FHWA has a zero tolerance for alcohol. They understand that breath tests are not absolute under certain conditions (like under 0.02 BAC). They clearly leave it up to each individual law enforcement officer to decide if they want to arrest you for having any alcohol in your blood. It has happened, and it can happen. If you don't believe that, then you are simply being naive.

Remember - to be considered On Duty (not driving), you only have to be at the controls of a CMV. You don't actually have to be operating the CMV. If you are in the truck, and you aren't in the sleeper berth, you are on duty.

[golfhobo]

Originally Posted by BigDiesel

Uh.......Unemployed Hobo.... When you are able to rub two nickles together and able to invest thousands of dollars to own a company and operate under your own authority, at that point you can drink a half-rack in your truck.

Until then STFU.....

Uh..... UNINFORMED BigDiesel..... IF you buy into the analysis of the regs as given by others here (which I don't,) you would STILL and once again be wrong. No surprise!

The Feds don't make a distinction between O/O's and company drivers. The regs apply to both drivers and companies. As an O/O you qualify as BOTH if you drive your own rigs. Therefore, IF it is illegal to consume alcohol in your truck, then as the COMPANY you cannot allow yourself to do so!

Sorry..... under YOUR interpretations...... NO "half rack" for you, either!!

I got an idea.... why don't YOU shut up and let us "big boys" hash this out again! :wink:

[golfhobo]

Rev.Vassago said:

Alright. Now that I have some time to devote to this, I will. I couldn't care less about the touchy-feely crap having to do with "if you need a drink while you're on the road, you have a problem blah blah blah". Let's look at the regs, shall we? (I'll be highlighting the important parts)

I agree, Rev about the "crap." Like you, I am about the regs! the inappropriate remarks by BigD and Twilight serve no purpose here! :lol:
I really WOULD like to get to the bottom of this, once and for all, for ALL drivers, new or not, that have questions about this.

There are SEVERAL regulations and interpretations that apply to this, and I discussed them once before. Apparently, I didn't do a thorough job, and I hope to do better THIS time. :wink: We'll START with the ones YOU quoted:

§392.5 Alcohol prohibition.

(a) No driver shall—

(a)(1) Use alcohol, as defined in §382.107 of this subchapter, or be under the influence of alcohol, within 4 hours before going on duty or operating, or having physical control of, a commercial motor vehicle; or

I totally agree with this. This is the 4 hours from bottle to throttle reg.

(a)(2) Use alcohol, be under the influence of alcohol, or have any measured alcohol concentration or detected presence of alcohol, while on duty, or operating, or in physical control [/b]of a commercial motor vehicle; or

Clearly, the more important distinctions here are that of being ON DUTY, or OPERATING. "Physical Control" will be addressed later.

(a)(3) Be on duty or operate a commercial motor vehicle while the driver possesses wine of not less than one-half of one per centum of alcohol by volume, beer as defined in 26 U.S.C. 5052(a), of the Internal Revenue Code of 1954, and distilled spirits as defined in section 5002(a)(8 ), of such Code.[/color]

How many drivers ARE there? I assume this is just poor English in that they are referring to a SOLO driver who cannot possess alchohol (by definition stipulated) WHILE being "ON DUTY" or "OPERATING" said CMV (with the exception STIPULATED of being unladen and going to a motel or OTHER place of shutdown!) The fact that the regs are ALSO based around "DAYCAB WUSSES" and not those who spend their nights in a sleeper in a truckstop notwithstanding! If they MEANT to say NO alcohol in the truck EVER..... it was within their combined intelligence to come up with such words! :roll:

If a cop were to come up to you and want to talk to you, you'd automatically go on duty (not driving), and be in violation. If someone hit your truck, you'd have to go on duty(not driving) and be in violation. IF YOU WERE SITTING IN THE DRIVER'S SEAT HAVING A SMOKE, you would be on duty (not driving), and be in violation.

[b]I disagree on ALL points!

Talking to a cop is no different than answering your phone or qualcomm, and the regs are clear that UNLESS this is a "repeated" intrusion, it does NOT affect your ability to get restorative rest! Furthermore.... no company can REQUIRE you to DO so! Unless the problem is with YOU, WHILE you are "0perating the CMV", the company can do whatever they HAVE to do to have someone come out and "investigate" an accident, or even PUT OUT A FIRE on your truck! But, they have NO right under the REGS to FORCE you to go "on duty" to handle ANYTHING unless you are hauling hazmat, assuming you have been ROD and are OFF DUTY! And EVEN if they COULD.... you would now be "on duty" but NOT performing a "safety sensitive" function subject to the alcohol rules! Yeah.... you MIGHT have to restart your 10 hour break, but the definition of "safety sensitive" functions does NOT include answering questions about the Swift driver who took your hood off!

I will now further stress this by quoting the FMCSA interpretations for this reg:

Question 3: Does the prohibition against carrying alcoholic beverages in §392.5 apply to a driver who uses a company vehicle, for personal reasons, while off-duty?

Guidance: No. For example, an owner-operator using his/her own vehicle in an off-duty status, or a driver using a company truck or tractor for transportation to a motel, restaurant, or home, would normally be outside the scope of this section

Can we POSSIBLY agree that, absent the daycab/motel scenario, a driver uses his sleeper as his "home away from home?" Once it is PARKED in a truckstop, and the driver is OFF DUTY, RELIEVED of all responsibility to the load (by definition,) and using it IN PLACE of a motel, is by REGULATION "free to pursue activities of his own choosing OR even to leave the area?" The very definiton of a "laden" CMV, and the exemption, classifies a driver as NOT being "ON DUTY," yet ALLOWS him to "carry unmanifested alcohol." I contend that the SAME "off duty" status applies to having alcohol IN the truck while OFF DUTY.

Look at the wording they used - prohibition against carrying alcoholic beverages. That means it is prohibited, or not allowed. The only time you could get away with it is if you were using the truck as personal conveyance, which you cannot do if it is laden.

Which means there ARE exceptions! We agree that one cannot "carry" unmanifested alcohol WHILE laden and operating a CMV ON DUTY! But, OBVIOUSLY, one CAN if unladen. So, the definiton of "carrying" does NOT apply in some circumstances.... and DEFINITELY is not defined as "having alcohol in a stationary CMV" while OFF DUTY! Again.... IF they MEANT that.....they would have SAID that!

Another thing you are incorrect about, golfhobo, is the .02 being the minimum. Let's go back to the regs:

§392.5 Intoxicating Beverage

Question 4: Would an alcohol test, performed by an employer pursuant to 49 CFR part 382, with a result greater than 0.00 BAC, but less than 0.02 BAC, establish that a driver was in violation of 49 CFR 392.5(a)(2), having any measured alcohol concentration while on duty?

Guidance: No. The FHWA believes that a 0.02 BAC is the lowest level at which a scientifically accurate breath/blood alcohol concentration can be measured in an employer-based test under part 382. The FHWA further believes that this use of a 0.02 BAC standard is consistent with FHWA's long established zero tolerance standard for alcohol.

This guidance in no way impedes or precludes any action taken by a law enforcement official because of a finding that a BAC level was less than 0.02 BAC.

Let an LEO "try" a case before a judge for a driver being PARKED, and not driving or operating a CMV (or any OTHER vehicle) on the roadways of America under the DWI OR "public intoxication" statutes," where the driver blows LESS than .02 and see how fast the judge laughs him out of court! :roll:

Been there, DONE that! Embarrassed the LEO! (not related to a CMV.)

The FHWA has a zero tolerance for alcohol. They understand that breath tests are not absolute under certain conditions (like under 0.02 BAC). They clearly leave it up to each individual law enforcement officer to decide if they want to arrest you for having any alcohol in your blood. It has happened, and it can happen. If you don't believe that, then you are simply being naive.

The FHWA is not EVEN a "regulatory agency!" (they are a highway FUNDING organization.) The ONLY agency regulating CMV drivers is the FMCSA! But, if EITHER agency, OR an LEO, wanted to "arrest me" for being IN COMPLIANCE with the FMCSA regulations, .... while OFF DUTY.... they better know the rules better than YOU! :wink:

Remember - to be considered On Duty (not driving), you only have to be at the controls of a CMV. You don't actually have to be operating the CMV. If you are in the truck, and you aren't in the sleeper berth, you are on duty

I KNOW you will find this hard to believe, but.... I disagree! :lol: I have spent a few hours "clipping" relevant rulings to support my view, and I will post them! But, I feel THIS post has gone long enough. I just couldn't find a way to POST all my arguments without screwing up your "quotes," so, I will do it all seperatly!

I WILL say this..... there DOES seem to be an ambivalent description of the term "in physical control." I can't find anything to support MY idea of it.... OR yours! :roll:

IF I find something that changes my mind or my interpretation, I WILL post it and give due credit! I DO want this discussion to stay CIVIL!

But, as of THIS posting, the major difference I see, AS REGULATED, is that of the average trucker vs. the HAZMAT driver! THEY MUST be "responsible" at all times for their loads, and thereby DON'T have some of the "exemptions" or allowances that WE do! "I" interpret this as a MAJOR distinction between those drivers and the average driver!

[Rev.Vassago]

Originally Posted by golfhobo

Talking to a cop is no different than answering your phone or qualcomm, and the regs are clear that UNLESS this is a "repeated" intrusion, it does NOT affect your ability to get restorative rest!

Cite a regulation that states that talking to a DOT official can be considered "Off Duty" time.

Furthermore.... no company can REQUIRE you to DO so!

Who gives a crap what a company can or cannot require you to do? The FMCSA regs outweigh company regulations. And a DOT officer can require you to go On Duty (not driving) at any time.

Unless the problem is with YOU, WHILE you are "0perating the CMV", the company can do whatever they HAVE to do to have someone come out and "investigate" an accident, or even PUT OUT A FIRE on your truck! But, they have NO right under the REGS to FORCE you to go "on duty" to handle ANYTHING unless you are hauling hazmat, assuming you have been ROD and are OFF DUTY!

You're kidding, right? A company has full control of if and when you go off duty. A Motor Carrier has to release you from your duties before you can go off duty - it's worded that way right in the regs.

And EVEN if they COULD.... you would now be "on duty" but NOT performing a "safety sensitive" function subject to the alcohol rules! Yeah.... you MIGHT have to restart your 10 hour break, but the definition of "safety sensitive" functions does NOT include answering questions about the Swift driver who took your hood off!

Please show me where it says anything in the regs that states "On Duty, but only if you are performing a safety sensitive function".:roll:

Can we POSSIBLY agree that, absent the daycab/motel scenario, a driver uses his sleeper as his "home away from home?" Once it is PARKED in a truckstop, and the driver is OFF DUTY, RELIEVED of all responsibility to the load (by definition,) and using it IN PLACE of a motel, is by REGULATION "free to pursue activities of his own choosing OR even to leave the area?"

Unfortunately for you, the regulations state otherwise. The motor carrier must release you from all responsibility to the load for you to go Off Duty, and if you are in the sleeper berth, you are not Off Duty.

The very definiton of a "laden" CMV, and the exemption, classifies a driver as NOT being "ON DUTY," yet ALLOWS him to "carry unmanifested alcohol." I contend that the SAME "off duty" status applies to having alcohol IN the truck while OFF DUTY.

If you are in the CMV, you cannot be OFF DUTY, unless you are using the CMV for personal conveyance. If you are taking a break in the sleeper, you are not OFF DUTY.

Which means there ARE exceptions! We agree that one cannot "carry" unmanifested alcohol WHILE laden and operating a CMV ON DUTY! But, OBVIOUSLY, one CAN if unladen. So, the definiton of "carrying" does NOT apply in some circumstances.... and DEFINITELY is not defined as "having alcohol in a stationary CMV" while OFF DUTY! Again.... IF they MEANT that.....they would have SAID that!

Once again, sleeper berth = sleeper berth. Sleeper berth does not = off duty. Ever. Never, ever, ever.

Let an LEO "try" a case before a judge for a driver being PARKED, and not driving or operating a CMV (or any OTHER vehicle) on the roadways of America under the DWI OR "public intoxication" statutes," where the driver blows LESS than .02 and see how fast the judge laughs him out of court! :roll:

Been there, DONE that! Embarrassed the LEO! (not related to a CMV.)

Then it is irrelevant.

The FHWA is not EVEN a "regulatory agency!" (they are a highway FUNDING organization.) The ONLY agency regulating CMV drivers is the FMCSA! But, if EITHER agency, OR an LEO, wanted to "arrest me" for being IN COMPLIANCE with the FMCSA regulations, .... while OFF DUTY.... they better know the rules better than YOU! :wink:

I would hope they understand the concept of a sleeper berth, and personal conveyance better than you obviously do (or don't).

I KNOW you will find this hard to believe, but.... I disagree! :lol: I have spent a few hours "clipping" relevant rulings to support my view, and I will post them! But, I feel THIS post has gone long enough. I just couldn't find a way to POST all my arguments without screwing up your "quotes," so, I will do it all seperatly!

I can post one single regulation that supports it.

395.2

On duty time means all time from the time a driver begins to work or is required to be in readiness to work until the time the driver is relieved from work and all responsibility for performing work. On duty time shall include:

(1) All time at a plant, terminal, facility, or other property of a motor carrier or shipper, or on any public property, waiting to be dispatched, unless the driver has been relieved from duty by the motor carrier;

(2) All time inspecting, servicing, or conditioning any commercial motor vehicle at any time;

(3) All driving time as defined in the term driving time;

(4) All time, other than driving time, in or upon any commercial motor vehicle except time spent resting in a sleeper berth;

The only exception is when the vehicle is being used for personal conveyance. Sitting in the sleeper getting wasted is not personal conveyance.

Question 26: If a driver is permitted to use a CMV for personal reasons, how must the driving time be recorded?

Guidance: When a driver is relieved from work and all responsibility for performing work, time spent traveling from a driver's home to his/her terminal (normal work reporting location), or from a driver's terminal to his/her home, may be considered off-duty time. Similarly, time spent traveling short distances from a driver's en route lodgings (such as en route terminals or motels) to restaurants in the vicinity of such lodgings may be considered off-duty time. The type of conveyance used from the terminal to the driver's home, from the driver's home to the terminal, or to restaurants in the vicinity of en route lodgings would not alter the situation unless the vehicle is laden. A driver may not operate a laden CMV as a personal conveyance. The driver who uses a motor carrier's CMV for transportation home, and is subsequently called by the employing carrier and is then dispatched from home, would be on-duty from the time the driver leaves home.