Alcohol and OTR

[Rev.Vassago]

[note: there is no concern for the motoring public as concerns a truck that is parked for the night in a truckstop.]

The FMCSA regs do not end at the driveway to private property.

[ELGAUL]

my hand's are clapping for the people with the FACTS and not one's OPINIONS..i know a jb hunt 2 million miler that has a six pack in his cooler in his truck right now and he will drink it tonight! as he does and has for the last 30 years.if you have self control and maturity,i say do as an adult does,make up your own mind..

[golfhobo]

Had, as in past tense,..... I'm impressed

Don't be. "Have had" is something like past perfect.... or something like that, I don't remember. High school was a long time ago.

This post was NOT my "mea culpa" or anything LIKE that that some are expecting. I have not totally changed my position on what the REGS say. If I EVER "encouraged" someone to drink in his truck, it was not an ACTIVE proposition, but rather, a reaction to the questions posed at the time.

If you are so easily impressed by my statement, then I thank you, but.... I would caution you to wait. I have MUCH more to say.

Did you READ the rest of my post? The fact is, I don't believe the fmcsa really has addressed the issue. I prefer to believe it is an individual decision.

Obviously, when you look at Bel's siglines, there is a dichotomy to my statements, and I WILL straighten that out. But, I have studied the regs over and over, and I am not convinced that it is a clear cut issue. [has anyone ELSE here spent the time I have on this subject?]

Some say that alcohol has NO business anywhere NEAR a CMV. I believe the regs allow for the fact.... and reality.... that it does.... or WILL be. Obviously, that is not a popular position. I am not really concerned with being popular.

I am concerned with the proper interpretation of the regs. And yes, I believe there is a "spirit" of the regs that is missed by many who read only the words... and especially by those who MISINTERPRET the words.

Things got a little out of hand in this thread, with me sometimes playing the devil's advocate to a panel of deaf and blind men. Unfortunately, there are some here who insist on holding my feet to the fire for EVERY little thing I say. So be it. I will correct any wrong statements that I have made, but will stand by any interpretation that I believe is right, or at least valid and legal.

But, regardless of what I decide to say, OR what the regs might mean, the fact remains that there are hundreds, if not thousands, of truckers in truckstops every night who drink in their trucks while "off duty." The evidence is in the trash cans that are positioned throughout the lot.

And, in over 3 years on the road, I have NEVER seen an LEO come into one of those lots and "roust" anyone to see if they were drinking. Just the facts, Ma'am....

Many on here have an "opinion" about whether a driver should leave the beer alone while on the road. I actually can "appreciate" that opinion. In 3 years on the road, I rarely took advantage of the time I had, or the proximity to a bar, to partake. At times, I was just too tired anyway. But, more importantly, I KNEW the regs concerning alcohol "use" before going on-duty, and I abided BY them.

Expressing my opinion on the situation, or debating the rules, should NOT brand me as some kind of "drunk" OR an outlaw. Those who would DO so are simply too lazy or disinterested to actually investigate the rules, and/or are simply "opining" based on moral indignation supported by a lack of comprehension.

I HAVE no such "dog" in that fight. I am about the regs and their proper interpretation. If I got a little "cavalier" in doing so, and SUGGESTED any illegal activity to anyone, for THAT I would apologize. For my opinions or interpretations of the regs, IF and when I am convinced they were/are wrong, I will say so. But, I am still investigating.

[Rev.Vassago]

I would caution you to wait. I have MUCH more to say.

You always have "much more" to say.

[golfhobo]

And no where in the Regs. does it say you can "Drink Alcohol" in a CMV.

Nor does it say you can "please yourself" in a CMV. Nor does it say you can watch T.V. in a CMV.

In fact.... nowhere in the regs does it say, in simple terms that all could understand, that you cannot drink alcohol in a CMV. Seems like a simple phrase to say, in all those regs. But.... they NEVER said it, did they?

[golfhobo]

STATE LAWS will take immediate action:

Possession of Alcohol in a Commercial Vehicle -- Possession of an unopened or open container of alcohol in a commercial motor vehicle is an infraction. (This does not apply to excursion passenger vehicles, for-hire passenger vehicles, or motor homes if the alcohol beverage is in the possession of a passenger or is in the passenger area.)

Would you please CITE the regulation or statute from which you quoted this?

[golfhobo]

The FMCSA regs do not end at the driveway to private property.

Well.... actually, they DO.... as long as it is not open to public access and qualifying as a PVA (Public Vehicular Area.)

But, more importantly, the "spirit" of the FMCSA regs are ALL about protecting the motoring public from us "bad guys." Would you like me to link you to the speech by Ms. Annenberg?

Is the "motoring public" sitting in your private driveway? NO? Then the fmcsa really couldn't give a ***** what you do there!

[fdmax]

Don't be. "Have had" is something like past perfect.... or something like that, I don't remember. High school was a long time ago.

This post was NOT my "mea culpa"
(It was an acknowledgment of your error)

or anything LIKE that that some are expecting.
(maby not )


I have not totally changed my position on what the REGS say.
(you did)

If I EVER "encouraged" someone to drink in his truck,
(you did)

it was not an ACTIVE proposition,
(it was)

but rather, a reaction to the questions posed at the time.
( you reacted before thinking)

If you are so easily impressed by my statement,
( no not easily, you can really strech a statment out for a really long time, with the inbetween words not meaning anything at all, it's not easy to understand you, but i seen worse)

then I thank you,
(your welcome for that)

but.... I would caution you to wait. I have MUCH more to say.
( go on i'm listening)

Did you READ the rest of my post?
(yes)

The fact is, I don't believe the fmcsa really has addressed the issue.
(belief, a man's opinion)

I prefer to believe it is an individual decision.
(not if it's an intoxicating beverage, it's against the law)

Obviously, when you look at Bel's siglines,
(i did, it does'nt say enough to stop other from still thinking it ok to have an intoxicating beverage in the truck)

there is a dichotomy to my statements,
(when you mean exactly 50% of what you say)

and I WILL straighten that out.
( that would be good, I can see there are people looking for excuses to drink in the truck, and they are hanging on your very words)

But, I have studied the regs over and over,
( do you need to take a test like a 5th grader)

and I am not convinced that it is a clear cut issue.
(yes you need that test to reaffirm what you studied)

[has anyone ELSE here spent the time I have on this subject?]
(some learn faster than others)

Some say that alcohol has NO business anywhere NEAR a CMV.
( Thats the Brewer's and distributors business, any other reason it's not business)

I believe the regs allow for the fact.... and reality.... that it does.... or WILL be.
(Not in the United States)

Obviously, that is not a popular position.
(because it won't happen..."again"... like before the Laws governing intoxicating beverages)

I am not really concerned with being popular.
(yes you are, everybody like's somebody )

I am concerned with the proper interpretation of the regs. And yes, I believe there is a "spirit" of the regs that is missed by many who read only the words...
(there is no "spirit of reg. if they don't say you can do something, don't interpret it as you can, when all other embodiments say you can't, "The Regs are a state of being, not of sentiment".)

and especially by those who MISINTERPRET the words.
( <a href="http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/embodiment">embodiment</a> )

Things got a little out of hand in this thread,
(no it's a good thread, we are adults, nobody's feeling should be hurt)

with me sometimes playing the devil's advocate to a panel of deaf and blind men.
(there are many who see and hear, even if we speak nothing, it's cause we all want to learn)

Unfortunately, there are some here who insist on holding my feet to the fire for EVERY little thing I say. (thats the way conversation is, we are all right in our own eye's, but we give alittle to keep the peace)

So be it. I will correct any wrong statements that I have made, but will stand by any interpretation that I believe is right, or at least valid and legal.
( good for you , i believe you are a good person)

But, regardless of what I decide to say, OR what the regs might mean, the fact remains that there are hundreds, if not thousands, of truckers in truckstops every night who drink in their trucks while "off duty." The evidence is in the trash cans that are positioned throughout the lot.
(i really don't get that close to those really nasty smelling cans eeewww, and i never look in them)

And, in over 3 years on the road, I have NEVER seen an LEO come into one of those lots and "roust" anyone to see if they were drinking. Just the facts, Ma'am....
( i have seen LEO's in truck stops but i don't go over there asking whats going on)

Many on here have an "opinion" about whether a driver should leave the beer alone while on the road. I actually can "appreciate" that opinion. In 3 years on the road, I rarely took advantage of the time I had, or the proximity to a bar, to partake. At times, I was just too tired anyway. But, more importantly, I KNEW the regs concerning alcohol "use" before going on-duty, and I abided BY them.
(me too)

Expressing my opinion on the situation, or debating the rules, should NOT brand me as some kind of "drunk" OR an outlaw.
(not at all, i don't think that)

Those who would DO so are simply too lazy or disinterested to actually investigate the rules, and/or are simply "opining" based on moral indignation supported by a lack of comprehension.
(we learn where we learn, and it was from so and so saying such and such)

I HAVE no such "dog" in that fight. I am about the regs and their proper interpretation.
(how about posting a copy of the full regs pertaining to Alcohol like this:

§392.5 Alcohol prohibition.


(a) No driver shall—

(a)(1) Use alcohol, as defined in §382.107 of this subchapter, or be under the influence of alcohol, within 4 hours before going on duty or operating, or having physical control of, a commercial motor vehicle; or

(a)(2) Use alcohol, be under the influence of alcohol, or have any measured alcohol concentration or detected presence of alcohol, while on duty, or operating, or in physical control of a commercial motor vehicle; or

(a)(3) Be on duty or operate a commercial motor vehicle while the driver possesses wine of not less than one-half of one per centum of alcohol by volume, beer as defined in 26 U.S.C. 5052(a), of the Internal Revenue Code of 1954, and distilled spirits as defined in section 5002(a)(8), of such Code. However, this does not apply to possession of wine, beer, or distilled spirits which are:

(a)(3)(i) Manifested and transported as part of a shipment; or

(a)(3)(ii) Possessed or used by bus passengers.

(b) No motor carrier shall require or permit a driver to—

(b)(1) Violate any provision of paragraph (a) of this section; or

(b)(2) Be on duty or operate a commercial motor vehicle if, by the driver’s general appearance or conduct or by other substantiating evidence, the driver appears to have used alcohol within the preceding 4 hours.

(c) Any driver who is found to be in violation of the provisions of paragraph (a) or (b) of this section shall be placed out-of-service immediately for a period of 24 hours.

(c)(1) The 24-hour out-of-service period will commence upon issuance of an out-of-service order.

(c)(2) No driver shall violate the terms of an out-of-service order issued under this section.

(d) Any driver who is issued an out-of-service order under this section shall:

(d)(1) Report such issuance to his/her employer within 24 hours; and

(d)(2) Report such issuance to a State official, designated by the State which issued his/her driver’s license, within 30 days unless the driver chooses to request a review of the order. In this case, the driver shall report the order to the State official within 30 days of an affirmation of the order by either the Division Administrator or State Director for the geographical area for the Region or the Administrator.

(e) Any driver who is subject to an out-of-service order under this section may petition for review of that order by submitting a petition for review in writing within 10 days of the issuance of the order to the Division Administrator or State Director for the Region in which the order was issued. The Division Administrator or State Director may affirm or reverse the order. Any driver adversely affected by such order of the Division Administrator or State Director may petition the Administrator for review in accordance with 49 CFR 386.13.





If I got a little "cavalier" in doing so, and SUGGESTED any illegal activity to anyone, for THAT I would apologize.
(Thank You)


For my opinions or interpretations of the regs, IF and when I am convinced they were/are wrong, I will say so. But, I am still investigating. (see above)

.....

[fdmax]

§392.5 Alcohol prohibition.


(a) No driver shall—

(a)(1) Use alcohol, as defined in §382.107 of this subchapter, or be under the influence of alcohol, within 4 hours before going on duty or operating, or having physical control of, a commercial motor vehicle; or

(a)(2) Use alcohol, be under the influence of alcohol, or have any measured alcohol concentration or detected presence of alcohol, while on duty, or operating, or in physical control of a commercial motor vehicle; or

(a)(3) Be on duty or operate a commercial motor vehicle while the driver possesses wine of not less than one-half of one per centum of alcohol by volume, beer as defined in 26 U.S.C. 5052(a), of the Internal Revenue Code of 1954, and distilled spirits as defined in section 5002(a)(8), of such Code. However, this does not apply to possession of wine, beer, or distilled spirits which are:

(a)(3)(i) Manifested and transported as part of a shipment; or

(a)(3)(ii) Possessed or used by bus passengers.

(b) No motor carrier shall require or permit a driver to—

(b)(1) Violate any provision of paragraph (a) of this section; or

(b)(2) Be on duty or operate a commercial motor vehicle if, by the driver’s general appearance or conduct or by other substantiating evidence, the driver appears to have used alcohol within the preceding 4 hours.

(c) Any driver who is found to be in violation of the provisions of paragraph (a) or (b) of this section shall be placed out-of-service immediately for a period of 24 hours.

(c)(1) The 24-hour out-of-service period will commence upon issuance of an out-of-service order.

(c)(2) No driver shall violate the terms of an out-of-service order issued under this section.

(d) Any driver who is issued an out-of-service order under this section shall:

(d)(1) Report such issuance to his/her employer within 24 hours; and

(d)(2) Report such issuance to a State official, designated by the State which issued his/her driver’s license, within 30 days unless the driver chooses to request a review of the order. In this case, the driver shall report the order to the State official within 30 days of an affirmation of the order by either the Division Administrator or State Director for the geographical area for the Region or the Administrator.

(e) Any driver who is subject to an out-of-service order under this section may petition for review of that order by submitting a petition for review in writing within 10 days of the issuance of the order to the Division Administrator or State Director for the Region in which the order was issued. The Division Administrator or State Director may affirm or reverse the order. Any driver adversely affected by such order of the Division Administrator or State Director may petition the Administrator for review in accordance with 49 CFR 386.13.

[fdmax]

Nor does it say you can "please yourself" in a CMV. Nor does it say you can watch T.V. in a CMV.

In fact.... nowhere in the regs does it say, in simple terms that all could understand, that you cannot drink alcohol in a CMV. Seems like a simple phrase to say, in all those regs. But.... they NEVER said it, did they?

When a personal is legally held liable or accountable for physical control of a commercial motor vehicle

Definitions of Physical control on the Web:

The Physical control is established over the physical aspects (quantity and location) of the vehicle and records in custody. ...


a)(2) Use alcohol, be under the influence of alcohol, or have any measured alcohol concentration or detected presence of alcohol, while on duty, or operating, or in "physical control of a commercial motor vehicle"

the physical control of a commercial motor vehicle is the person that is responsible for that vehicle

[golfhobo]

Now I know how the Rev used to feel when I didn't properly quote someone's response in my reply. Under the current restrictions of this new board, your entire post would disappear. As it should.

As for the rest of it.... I don't have all night to respond to one or two word responses to every sentence I made. How about this.... How about YOU try to string a few words and thoughts together into a sentence or two.... called a paragraph.... and I'll respond to a coherent "thought" if you can find one.

As for the reg you quoted, and I see you posted it twice just SO that I could quote it.... you are a smart one.... ALL of part (a) relates to the same thing. One cannot DRIVE a CMV, or be ON DUTY, unless they meet the requirements of the reg, which is the 4 hour rule and no more than .02 BAC. One cannot be ON DUTY or OPERATE a CMV while the driver "posseses" alcohol.

Please show me the part of that reg that says that a driver who is OFF DUTY, cannot "possess" alcohol when NEITHER he (nor anyone else) is "operating" the CMV in interstate commerce.

Let me make this simple for you. The entire "alcohol prohibition" reg is centered around the fact that a driver cannot OPERATE or be ON DUTY with more than .02 BAC in his system, or within 4 hours of drinking. And cannot OPERATE the vehicle while ON DUTY if anyone possesses alcohol in the truck.

The ONLY phrase still in question is that of "physical control." If you are basing YOUR entire argument on that ONE phrase (which is still under review,) please SAY SO! Otherwise, quit quoting the same reg that so many others do, that says NOTHING about whether a driver can drink on his OFF DUTY time, or whether he can sleep it off in his sleeper.

[fdmax]

Would you please CITE the regulation or statute from which you quoted this?

Google

Possession of Alcohol in a Commercial Vehicle

[fdmax]

you where talking to me
and every thing you said could be responded to,
that was easy enough
you would do better if you knew what you where saying

§392.5 Alcohol prohibition
a)(2) Use alcohol, be under the influence of alcohol, or have any measured alcohol concentration or detected presence of alcohol, while on duty, or operating, or in "physical control of a commercial motor vehicle"



here read it again,
it's not under review it's a regulation

[golfhobo]

When a personal is legally held liable or accountable for physical control of a commercial motor vehicle

Definitions of Physical control on the Web:

The Physical control is established over the physical aspects (quantity and location) of the vehicle and records in custody. ...

WHAT????


a)(2) Use alcohol, be under the influence of alcohol, or have any measured alcohol concentration or detected presence of alcohol, while on duty, or operating, or in "physical control of a commercial motor vehicle"

the physical control of a commercial motor vehicle is the person that is responsible for that vehicle

In order to take your 10 hour break, and be able to drive again, you MUST be Relieved OF DUTY (ROD) by your carrier (implicit in the regs)

That means relieved of ALL responsibility. Again, if the truck is idling, and you're in the sleeper, the jury is out (as far as I'm concerned) as to whether STATE law would consider you "in physical control," but there is NO DOUBT that, per the regs, you are RELIEVED of control or responsibility by your carrier if you are on your required 10 or 34 hour break.

[golfhobo]

you where talking to me
(yes, I was.)

and every thing you said could be responded to,
yes, it could... but it couldn't be "quoted.")

that was easy enough
(Now try quoting everything I'm saying, and responding to each line.)

you would do better if you knew what you where saying
(And YOU would do better if YOU knew what I was saying.)

§392.5 Alcohol prohibition
a)(2) Use alcohol, be under the influence of alcohol, or have any measured alcohol concentration or detected presence of alcohol, while on duty, or operating, or in "physical control of a commercial motor vehicle"



here read it again,
it's not under review it's a regulation

?????

[fdmax]

Try this reg Golfhobo,
look at the word "include"
Include does not mean solely that line 4).the sleeper berth is exempt from responsiblity

§382.107 Definitions.


§382.107
Safety-sensitive function means all time from the time a driver begins to work or is required to be in readiness to work until the time he/she is relieved from work and all responsibility for performing work. Safety-sensitive functions shall include:

1) All time at an employer or shipper plant, terminal, facility, or other property, or on any public property, waiting to be dispatched, unless the driver has been relieved from duty by the employer;

(2) All time inspecting equipment as required by §§392.7 and 392.8 of this subchapter or otherwise inspecting, servicing, or conditioning any commercial motor vehicle at any time;

(3) All time spent at the driving controls of a commercial motor vehicle in operation;

(4) All time, other than driving time, in or upon any commercial motor vehicle except time spent resting in a sleeper berth (a berth conforming to the requirements of §393.76 of this subchapter);


The Safety-sensitive functions Shall include: "INCLUDE"

To bring into a group, class, set, or total as a (new) part or member; To contain, as parts of a whole

"required to be in readiness to work until the time he/she is relieved from work and all responsibility"

[golfhobo]

Google

Possession of Alcohol in a Commercial Vehicle

okay... I DID. And the only "hit" I got where I found that exact quote was a site by the company that makes the "interlock" sytems for those who must have one to drive. It DOES say that, but where is their cited reference? Where is there credibility? I asked you to quote a STATUTE that says that. Do you KNOW what a "statute" is?

I REALLY hate "wild goose chases" after blogs, commercial sites, or whatever that some of you consider PROOF. Do the research, as I have. Find me the state law, or federal law that says what you are saying. And furthermore, one that defines "physical control."

[fdmax]

okay... I DID. And the only "hit" I got where I found that exact quote was a site by the company that makes the "interlock" sytems for those who must have one to drive. It DOES say that, but where is their cited reference? Where is there credibility? I asked you to quote a STATUTE that says that. Do you KNOW what a "statute" is?

I REALLY hate "wild goose chases" after blogs, commercial sites, or whatever that some of you consider PROOF. Do the research, as I have. Find me the state law, or federal law that says what you are saying. And furthermore, one that defines "physical control."

http://www.monitechnc.com/Nclaw.html
http://www.ncleg.net/gascripts/BillL...9&BillID=H1499

House Bill 1499 / S.L. 2000-155 (= S1199)
1999-2000 Session
INTERLOCK/OPEN CONTAINER CHANGES

Effective September 1, 2000, North Carolina's drunk driving laws will be strengthened yet again. The new law:

Strengthens the open container law to prohibit anyone in motor vehicle from having open containers of beer or wine while in a public vehicular area. Strengthens the ignition-interlock requirement so that an offender will be required to have the alcohol-sensing device installed not just in his or her primary vehicle, but all vehicle registered in their name.
To view the full text of this statute, click here .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Effective July 1, 2000, North Carolina's drunk driving laws are tougher than ever. To target repeat offenders, the new law:

Establishes a blood alcohol content of 0.04 for those who have been convicted of a DWI and have had their license reinstated. Establishes a blood alcohol content of 0.00 for those who have been convicted of a second DWI and have had their license reinstated.
Requires those who are convicted of having a blood alcohol level of .16 or greater -- in other words, at twice the legal limit-- to use an ignition interlock system in their vehicles before their license is restored.
To view the full text of this statute, click here .


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In addition, North Carolina can now seize the vehicle of a driver whose license is revoked by another state, if the revocation is for an offense that is "substantially" similar to one -- if committed in North Carolina -- would make the vehicle subject to seizure. This would apply to a DWI violation charged to an out-of-state driver whose license has been revoked for a previous DWI.

[golfhobo]

Try this reg Golfhobo,
look at the word "include"
Include does not mean solely that line 4).the sleeper berth is exempt from responsiblity

§382.107 Definitions.


§382.107
Safety-sensitive function means all time from the time a driver begins to work or is required to be in readiness to work until the time he/she is relieved from work and all responsibility for performing work. Safety-sensitive functions shall include:

1) All time at an employer or shipper plant, terminal, facility, or other property, or on any public property, waiting to be dispatched, unless the driver has been relieved from duty by the employer;

(2) All time inspecting equipment as required by §§392.7 and 392.8 of this subchapter or otherwise inspecting, servicing, or conditioning any commercial motor vehicle at any time;

(3) All time spent at the driving controls of a commercial motor vehicle in operation;

(4) All time, other than driving time, in or upon any commercial motor vehicle except time spent resting in a sleeper berth (a berth conforming to the requirements of §393.76 of this subchapter);


The Safety-sensitive functions Shall include: "INCLUDE"

To bring into a group, class, set, or total as a (new) part or member; To contain, as parts of a whole

"required to be in readiness to work until the time he/she is relieved from work and all responsibility"

Jeez, I can't believe you are trying to school ME in definitions! Where have you been? We've been all through this many times already!

What part of:

"means all time from the time a driver begins to work or is required to be in readiness to work until the time he/she is relieved from work and all responsibility for performing work. "

Do you (and others) NOT UNDERSTAND????

The regs use the SAME wording to describe both ON DUTY TIME... AND.... safety sensitive functions. And BOTH times they clearly state that those functions or times END when the driver is RELIEVED OF DUTY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR WORK!

I'm THROUGH with this conversation with you, fdmax! I've been through it all before with others. My intention now is to clarify any possible misstatements I might have made, and furthermore to provide MORE SUPPORT for my positions that I STILL hold.

YOU can go back and read some of what you missed in this AND OTHER threads in this forum if you wish. But, I'm not going to repeat it all for you.

[golfhobo]

The new law:

Strengthens the open container law to prohibit anyone in motor vehicle from having open containers of beer or wine while in a public vehicular area.

Okay..... I give up. From now on, I will ONLY suggest that drivers have open containers of Jack Daniels in the sleeper!