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Thread: Laptop Illegal in Commercial Vehicle?

  1. #1
    thebaldeagle655's Avatar
    thebaldeagle655 is offline Board Regular thebaldeagle655 is on the right path.  You could probably safely loan them a quarter.
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    Default Laptop Illegal in Commercial Vehicle?

    From OOIDA website:

    une 2, 2008
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    Arizona cops say passenger seat laptops violate FMCSA’s TV ban

    Gerald Cook watched the Arizona DOT officer open his handbook to a dog-eared page toward the back. The words “television receiver” and an entire paragraph of text were highlighted.

    Minutes earlier on Sunday, May 25, Cook had pulled into Arizona’s Sam Simon Port of Entry scale house while traveling westbound on Interstate 10. The Arizona Department of Transportation officer questioned Cook about the laptop computer mounted in the front of his cab.

    Surely the officer wasn’t busting Cook for the computer that hundreds of inspection officers had seen before, mounted near his driver’s seat in his 2005 Peterbilt 379.

    The computer allows Cook to check e-mail messages from dispatchers and home and, more importantly, allows him to quickly and accurately enter hours-of-service data into his logbook software.

    “He told me (the computer) couldn’t be within my reach from my driving position,” Cook said. “That negates doing my logbook on the laptop.”

    Staff in OOIDA’s Member Assistance Department said two Association members called Tuesday, May 27, regarding Arizona DOT officers at the Sam Simon Port of Entry. The incidents reported in Tuesday’s calls were the first known interpretations of federal law to single out laptop computers.

    Several states prohibit all drivers – commercial and non-commercial – from viewing television or movies, but some of those states exempt driver-aid technology such as GPS mapping systems.

    After a few minutes, the officer told Cook he was being cited for violating a federal safety regulation that prohibits trucks from having “television” screens within the view of drivers.

    The officer told him the ticket could cost $450.

    Cook, who said his laptop was closed and in sleep mode, was stunned.

    “I’ve never had anybody say anything about it before – it kind of caught me by surprise,” Cook told Land Line. “He said, ‘With the Internet, you can play movies.’ I told him, ‘Have you ever seen a cop car with a laptop? They’re on at all times.’ ”

    Arizona officials are interpreting that laptop computers are covered by a Federal Motor Carrier Safety Regulation that was originally designed to prevent television viewing by commercial drivers, said Cydney De Modica, an Arizona DOT spokeswoman.

    “Although in general, laptops are used for obtaining current information about road conditions, closures and restrictions, advancing technology does allow the devices to be used as a television receiver, which is, the prohibition under which the driver was cited under 393.88,” De Modica told Land Line. “We all are aware that laptop capability and computer capability is advancing and changing on a regular basis.”

    The FMCSRs ban television viewing by drivers with rule 393.88, which states:

    “Any motor vehicle equipped with a television viewer, screen or other means of visually receiving a television broadcast shall have the viewer or screen located in the motor vehicle at a point to the rear of the back of the driver’s seat if such viewer or screen is in the same compartment as the driver and the viewer or screen shall be so located as not to be visible to the driver, while he/she is driving the motor vehicle. The operating controls for the television receiver shall be so located that the driver cannot operate them without leaving the driver’s seat.”

    Arizona DOT officers issue citations only if a driver has a laptop open, and is typing or working on it while truck wheels are rolling, said De Modica, who wouldn’t comment specifically on Cook’s citation. The decision to include laptops was made to head off what Arizona inspectors see as a troubling trend among a few drivers, she said.

    “Over the past year, we’re beginning to see more and more use of onboard technology in the form of laptops,” De Modica said. “We have even seen people in the process of actively engaging in communication on a chat line.”

    Cook said the relatively new interpretation of an old regulation serves one purpose:

    “It’s a money grab,” Cook said.

    The five-year driver said he’ll challenge the interpretation of the federal law.

    “I’ll fight it until every cop car in the country doesn’t have a laptop in it,” Cook said. “My laptop is staying right where it is.”

    – By Charlie Morasch, staff writer

  2. #2
    thebaldeagle655's Avatar
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    I hope we get an update on that one!! I plan on leaving mine, sitting on the passenger seat with my Delorme Street Atlas on while traveling. I feel a quick glance at the screen is safer than pulling a paper map out while driving down the street any day!! I always pull over and do a load check, then log it before I start so that won't change either!

    If they outlaw the Laptop from being in driver's reach, they need to outlaw all the dash mounted GPS units too!!

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Laptop Illegal in Commercial Vehicle?

    Quote Originally Posted by thebaldeagle655
    “Any motor vehicle equipped with a television viewer, screen or other means of visually receiving a television broadcast shall have the viewer or screen located in the motor vehicle at a point to the rear of the back of the driver’s seat if such viewer or screen is in the same compartment as the driver and the viewer or screen shall be so located as not to be visible to the driver, while he/she is driving the motor vehicle. The operating controls for the television receiver shall be so located that the driver cannot operate them without leaving the driver’s seat.”
    While it would be a PITA to fight, the burden would be on the DOT officer to prove the laptop had the capability of receiving a television broadcast at the time of the citation. I know my laptop is incapable of receiving television broadcasts.

  4. #4
    thebaldeagle655's Avatar
    thebaldeagle655 is offline Board Regular thebaldeagle655 is on the right path.  You could probably safely loan them a quarter.
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    Bad thing would be the definition of "Television Broadcast." I know with my AT&T broadband card, in a 3g (broadband speed) area I can watch television shows that have already aired as well as the live broadcasts of some NASCAR races.

    Could be interesting to say the least!!! I do think I will start carrying my broadband card in the computer case, out o fsight until I need it.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebaldeagle655
    Bad thing would be the definition of "Television Broadcast." I know with my AT&T broadband card, in a 3g (broadband speed) area I can watch television shows that have already aired as well as the live broadcasts of some NASCAR races.

    Could be interesting to say the least!!! I do think I will start carrying my broadband card in the computer case, out o fsight until I need it.
    Directly from the FMCSA:

    Question 1: Does §393.88 restrict the use of closed circuit monitor devices being used as a safety viewing system that would eliminate blind-side motor carrier accidents?

    Guidance: No. The restriction of this section would not apply because the device cannot receive television broadcasts or be used for the viewing of video tapes.
    Since the FMCSA doesn't define "television broadcasts", or even "video tapes", it is a gray area.

    When I think of a laptop, particularly one that is providing GPS or logging, the term "television" does not come to mind.

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    What a trip! I use my laptop for GPS mapping all of the time. I didn't think it necessary to buy a TomTom, Garmin, etc because I had the laptop. I also have installed TV Tuner software for times I am not driving but don't have the USB Tuner plugged in while driving.

    I do think it is very hypocritical because the police use it to aid them doing their job and then they cite a driver for using a laptop to do their job.

    grrr

  7. #7
    Ronin is offline Board Regular Ronin is an unknown poster at this point.  Don't let him/her around power tools just yet.
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    As the driver who was cited pointed out, it's a money grab pure and simple. Sounds like AZDOT is looking to justify it's otherwise mediocre existance.

  8. #8
    bigtimba is offline Board Regular bigtimba is an unknown poster at this point.  Don't let him/her around power tools just yet.
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    Driving for Swift does have it's advantages . . since the inception of Prepass, I haven't been over an AZ scale. If I had, I'd have been guilty of this infraction every time. My laptop is in the passenger seat and Delorme is always running.

    I can't remember the route but there's a very rural place in upper state NY with nothing but a last minute notice of a low clearence . . I want to say 13' 4" but it's listed in RM MCA as 13' 6". I got to the sign . . there is no place to turn . . so I called the State Police looking for a little help.

    Two troopers show up . . friendly and helpful . . they offered to help me back up to bypass the bridge . . via ANOTHER restricted route. One was genuinely interested in how I got there because she wanted to look into whether or not this could be prevented in the future. I showed her the listing in the MCA and then pulled out my laptop, with the GPS crumb trail to show which way I had come.

    Her first remark? That's the same program we use!
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigtimba
    I can't remember the route but there's a very rural place in upper state NY with nothing but a last minute notice of a low clearence . . I want to say 13' 4" but it's listed in RM MCA as 13' 6". I got to the sign . . there is no place to turn . . so I called the State Police looking for a little help.

    Two troopers show up . . friendly and helpful . . they offered to help me back up to bypass the bridge . . via ANOTHER restricted route. One was genuinely interested in how I got there because she wanted to look into whether or not this could be prevented in the future. I showed her the listing in the MCA and then pulled out my laptop, with the GPS crumb trail to show which way I had come.

    Her first remark? That's the same program we use!

    Most warning signs in NY are list as 1 foot lower than actual clearance,if the sign reads 12'6" the actual bridge clearance is 13'6"
    "I love college football. It's the only time of year you can walk down the street with a girl in one arm and a blanket in the other, and nobody thinks twice about it." --Duffy Daugherty



  10. #10
    Rat
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    Well what are they going to do about cell phones then. Alot of them can be used to watch movies or whatever and me along with many others have them stuck to the dash and use some type of hand free device with them.

    The only time I use my phone is when the boss calls me for a change in plans. Other then that I don't use it unless I am stopped.

    As far as the Laptop, well mine is in the truck also but I don't need it for gps since I have a Garmin GPS V mounted on the dash. So the laptop is in the berth.

    I thought about the log thing with it but since my company requires the regular log book copies it just makes even more work at the end of the day.

  11. #11
    bigtimba is offline Board Regular bigtimba is an unknown poster at this point.  Don't let him/her around power tools just yet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike3fan

    Most warning signs in NY are list as 1 foot lower than actual clearance,if the sign reads 12'6" the actual bridge clearance is 13'6"
    And now . . the rest of the story!

    You are correct, sir.

    The scene . . Late at night, an unlit secondary road, my truck with 4 ways flashing and two state units all red white and blue . . it looked like a lot more than it was . .

    Cop 1 had gone back to the intersection to stop traffic there, I was just finishing up with Cop 2 and as she walked back to her car, I noticed the swing in her hip and twinkle in her eye . . (whoa! . . almost slipped into trucker vision), then some guy comes running out of his house to tell me to just go through it and that big trucks do it all the time. I was tempted . .

    . . but the Cops had been nice . . never questioned me about any conceivable wrong doing . . so I let them back me out so I could follow their route over an under rated bridge, instead!
    Trucking isn't about trucks; it's about Drivers. Up with Drivers and Up with Pay!

  12. #12
    flood is offline Senior Board Member flood has a checkered past and should take up chess.
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    AZ state police can out and said they WILL NOT be giving tickets for laptops being on and within reach of drivers.. "no video running" but things like gps, ddl are ok

    i know OOIDA was all over the for it.

  13. #13
    thebaldeagle655's Avatar
    thebaldeagle655 is offline Board Regular thebaldeagle655 is on the right path.  You could probably safely loan them a quarter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by flood
    AZ state police can out and said they WILL NOT be giving tickets for laptops being on and within reach of drivers.. "no video running" but things like gps, ddl are ok

    i know OOIDA was all over the for it.
    can someone explain what "Az state police can out" and "was all over the for it" means?

    I am sure Flood has a good point, trouble is with the foreign language this is written in I have no idea what he is saying! Is there some way to ban illiterate people?

  14. #14
    flood is offline Senior Board Member flood has a checkered past and should take up chess.
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    sorry bad keyboard on other laptop still not fully awke and high winds didn't help

    Arizona State Police came out in a press release and said that they would no longer issue tickets for laptop's within reach of a driver

    OOIDA went after them when they received calls from drivers Monday about Arizona (DOT) at the I-10 westbound Port of entry had started writing tickets for laptop's calling them TV's last Friday.

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    HEADLINE: Federal safety officials parse enforcement of TV ban on in-cab laptops

    Byline: Charlie Morasch, staff writer

    Only days after some truck drivers were warned and ticketed for having a laptop computer in-cab at an Arizona checkpoint, regulators in the highest levels of the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration are scrambling to answer one controversial question:

    Can commercial drivers have computer screens within view of their driver’s seats?

    Last week, FMCSA spokesman Duane DeBruyne told Land Line Magazine that he doesn’t believe laptop computers fall under Section 393.88 of the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Regulations.

    “The title of 393.88 is ‘television receivers,’ ” DeBruyne said. “Laptop computers are not television receivers; therefore, they are not prohibited by FMCSA regulations.”

    Later in the week, Stephen Campbell, executive director of the non-profit Commercial Vehicle Safety Alliance told Land Line that FMCSA Administrator John Hill and others are working to issue guidance regarding the interpretation of Federal Safety Regulation 393.88, which is titled “television receivers” and specifically bans a “screen or other means of visually receiving a television broadcast” from being within the driver’s view.

    “Clearly, what is intended by (393.88) is to prevent the driver from going down the road, watching ‘True Grit,’ ” Campbell said. “I think you would rightfully say no responsible driver would ever do that.”

    Drivers that have laptops in their cabs may be tempted to type, check e-mail or do other tasks that inhibit safe driving, but it’s difficult to prove, Campbell said.

    “And there might be some cops doing the same thing,” he said.

    Land Line Magazine’s daily Web news article on Monday, June 2, detailed the May 25 citation issued to OOIDA member Gerald Cook, who was ticketed after an Arizona DOT officer saw a laptop mounted near Cook’s driver seat when he went through the Sam Simon Port of Entry scale house on Interstate 10. Another OOIDA member was warned for the same supposed violation, though that driver was not cited.

    Since then, officials from Arizona’s DOT have requested an interpretation of 393.88 from the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration, state DOT Spokeswoman Cydney De Modica told Land Line.

    “The question that’s given this some immediacy is what’s going on in Arizona,” Campbell said. “The regulatory guidance they’ve received seemed to indicate it could be enforced. If enforcement is carried to a level of ridiculousness, I think it could be a problem for motor carriers and enforcement as well.”

    CVSA was scheduled to address the issue of laptop computers in cabs of big trucks at its September conference in Winnipeg, but the Arizona DOT’s request for a legal interpretation and other confusion about the rule has magnified the importance of the issue, Campbell said.

    Several states have laws banning television viewing by vehicle drivers, although many allow driver aid technology such as GPS screens.

    Section 393.88 of the FMCSR states:

    “Any motor vehicle equipped with a television viewer, screen or other means of visually receiving a television broadcast shall have the viewer or screen located in the motor vehicle at a point to the rear of the back of the driver’s seat if such viewer or screen is in the same compartment as the driver and the viewer or screen shall be so located as not to be visible to the driver, while he/she is driving the motor vehicle. The operating controls for the television receiver shall be so located that the driver cannot operate them without leaving the driver’s seat.”

    De Modica said Arizona’s state inspectors have issued mostly warnings and a handful of citations for drivers with open laptops.

    “There’s no high volume of these,” De Modica said.

    OOIDA Member Tom Clarke, of McKinney, TX, uses a laptop he’s mounted near his driver’s seat for mapping. He uses voice-activated software combined with mapping systems on his laptop and said it’s as safe as a GPS system.

    “It is a great tool (aid) to navigating,” Clarke wrote in an e-mail to Land Line. “In my opinion this is where technology helps reduce driver workload, which improves our margin of safety.

    “I feel very strongly that commercial drivers should be allowed to continue to use these types of tools,” he wrote. “P.S. I must have a cheap computer; I can’t watch TV on it.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev.Vassago
    The operating controls for the television receiver shall be so located that the driver cannot operate them without leaving the driver’s seat.”
    This is a stupid rule,aren't most Swifty drivers gonna crash if they get up from their seat to change the channel?
    "I love college football. It's the only time of year you can walk down the street with a girl in one arm and a blanket in the other, and nobody thinks twice about it." --Duffy Daugherty



  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev.Vassago
    “P.S. I must have a cheap computer; I can’t watch TV on it.”
    Hewlett Packard Rm436aa#aba Expresscard Digital/analog Tv Tuner :wink:
    http://www.beachaudio.com/Hewlett-Pa...-p-103910.html

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    The next time you go by an Arizona Trooper, or local law enforcement vehicle take a look to the right of the driver seat. There you will see mounted, in a direction that faces the driver, a computer screen. It will be on, and the drivers will use it while they are driving!!!! What's the problem here? Most big truck drivers aren't going to endanger themselves, although some will,.. and a laptop has a much better visual screen that that damned Quaalcom screen you can hardly see and how many of us have heard the beep and tried to read the next message from Dispatch???
    Roy

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    I'll admit that the qualcom sits in the pasanger seat and I'll quickly scan it on the open road, that thing constantly beeps and is anoying, I think that can be dangerous in it's own way. of course if I'm downtown or in busy traffic with lights and such I do my best to ignore the beep till i come to a red light or stop but i am guilty of looking at the qualcom while going down the road

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