HOS rules question

[Rat]

Ok say I start my day and and end up sitting for 2 hours waiting before I can even start geting loaded.

Then I drive to my final destination and get unloaded.

Does this 2 hours count against my on duty time or can I use it as berth time and take an 8 and be good to go for another 14/11 the next day?

I quess what I am saying is the run that I am doing sucks up all of 14 hours do to loading, unloading and driving but I usually have to sit for 2 hours waiting before I can even back up and start loading.


I did some searching on the net and all I could find is that I can split my berth time as long as one of the berth sections is no less then 8 hours.

[Drew10]

Split sleeper....Minimum 8hrs line 2, and Minimum 2hrs line 1 or 2.
The 2hour line 1 or 2 does not stop the 14hr clock. The 8hr line 2 will stop and reset the clock to the hours you had when you started the 8hr line 2.

[Rat]

I start my day Line one empty

Line 2 goes to 6:00

Down to line 4 to 6:30

Up to line 3 till 11:30

Up to line 2 till 1:30

Down to line 4 till 2:30

Up to line 3 till 7:00

Down to line 4 till 8:00

Up to line 2 for ?????

How long must I sit at line 2 before I can start my new day and how many hours did I use against my 14 hour day acording to HOS?

Did I use my 14 or did I only use 12?

[Drew10]

I start my day Line one empty

Line 2 goes to 6:00 Beginning of your duty day 0600

Down to line 4 to 6:30 on duty not driving .5hrs counts against your 70

Up to line 3 till 11:30 drove 5hrs

Up to line 2 till 1:30 sleeper 2hrs (beginning of possible split. 14hr clock still running)

Down to line 4 till 2:30 on duty not driving 1hr, counts against your 70

Up to line 3 till 7:00 drove for 4.5 hrs (9.5hrs total driving)

Down to line 4 till 8:00 on duty not driving 1hr, counts against your 70

Up to line 2 for ????? Minimum 8hrs for split line 2 only or 10hrs for full break combination line 1 and/or 2

How long must I sit at line 2 before I can start my new day and how many hours did I use against my 14 hour day acording to HOS?

Did I use my 14 or did I only use 12?

You started your duty day at 0600 and ended the day at 2000, thats 14hrs. 2hrs line 1 or 2 will not stop the 14hr clock

[Rawlco]

Do you mean that you park for the night at the shipper and log the time from when you wake up until you get loaded as on duty? I personally do NOT start my clock unless I move the truck on the road. While the rules state that any time you spend waiting is technically on duty I only log 30 minutes of line 4 to load or unload before I start driving otherwise I would be on duty 24-7 practically.

Now if you have to log some drive time to get to the shipper then split logging isn't going to save you much. It will allow you to start your day earlier but you will not have a full 11 and 14 available at the beginning of the day.

Warning! The following instructions on Split Sleeper Berth may cause headaches, confusion, double vision, and general rage about government doublespeak. If you are taking any medications consult your Doctor before proceeding!

Warning! These statements have not yet been approved by GolfHobo, the official corrector of such statements.

With split logging you can take 8 hours on line 2 in the sleeper berth and that will PAUSE your clocks. This needs to be matched with another break of 2 hours or more to get a complete 10 hours BUT the rules for calculating your 11 and 14 hour clocks get a bit difficult to explain.

Lets take one specific example that I will make up. Statements that follow apply ONLY to the example provided. If you start your day at 8am and drive for one hour to get to your shipper You then log two hours off duty or sleeper followed by half a hour load and pti on line 4. Your 14 hour clock still ends at 10 pm regardless of how many breaks you take. During the remainder of your 14 you log 9 driving hours ending at 10 pm. Then you take 8 hours in the sleeper. This brings us to 6 am but you do not have a full 11 and 14 available. You need to subtract from your clocks the amount of time you spent since the end of your previous break. So since your previous break you used 11 hours of your 14 hour clock, and from 11 am and 10 pm you drove 9 hours, leaving you with 2 hours available to drive within a three hour window. This means in this example you can drive up to two hours until 9am. If you want to drive more today you need to take another break of two hours or more and you may take that break at any time. After you complete another break of two hours or more your 14 hour clock will go from 6 am to 8pm and you may only drive 11 hours within that. Your two hour break (or any break) does count towards your 14 hour clock, while 8 or more hours in the sleeper does not.

So once you start the day after only taking 8 hours in the sleeper you are locked in to taking a two hour break to complete the split even if they get you loaded quicker than that. Something else interesting to note is that if You start Monday at 8am, then use the split rules Tuesday you will start at 6am. If you continue to split (you can take a ten hour break at any time to break the split pattern) then Wednesday will start at 4am, Thursday at 2am, and Friday at midnight. So it really screws with your sleep patterns if you use it excessively.

I have a more thorough explanation prepared and I can't find it here on CAD anymore, so I will link to it at:
http://www.thetruckersreport.com/tru...explained.html

[Rawlco]

Now that you have posted this I can work with this example. Again this applies only to this specific example.

I start my day Line one empty

Line 2 goes to 6:00

Down to line 4 to 6:30

Up to line 3 till 11:30

Up to line 2 till 1:30

Down to line 4 till 2:30

Up to line 3 till 7:00

Down to line 4 till 8:00

Up to line 2 for ?????

How long must I sit at line 2 before I can start my new day and how many hours did I use against my 14 hour day acording to HOS?

Did I use my 14 or did I only use 12?

You used your entire 14 hour clock.
You used up 12 hours of your 70 hours.

Since you took the two hour break you are elegible for split logging. Lets say you take an 8 hour sleeper berth break until 4am. Since the end of your previous break at 1:30 you used 6.5 hours of your 14 and 4.5 hours of drive time. That leaves you with 7.5 hours on your 14 and 6.5 hours available to drive, so you can drive 6.5 hours before 11:30. You may take the two hour break early but you must take it before you drive more than 6.5 hours and you must not drive after 11:30 without taking the 2 hour break.

Once you have taken that two hour break your 14 hour clock goes from 4am to 6pm and you can only drive 11 hours within that.

Does this help any?

[Rat]

Here is the deal, I haul raw product from Manitoba to southcentral North Dakota. 99% of the time there are many other trucks waiting at the same warehouse to get loaded and it can take up to two hours sometimes before I can get loaded. It is usually a 4 to 5 1/2 hour drive from the stop in North Dakota to the warehouse in Manitoba. We have a certain amount of time to get the product to the processing facility or it may go bad. We MUST do a load a day. Many times we have to wait for hours before we can even unload also due to the processing plant being full of product or what ever.

There is no way to shorten up the driving time due to weight restrictions in Manitoba that keep us off of many roads even when empty (65% restrictions on many roads makes any truck too heavy on the steer axles even empty).

Now mind you that any time we cross the boarder our truck and its driver have been logged in. I know this as a fact because some drivers have been ticketed for falsification because their log book did not match up with the computer in the DOT bears car as to when the truck and driver crossed the boarder into Canada and back into the states.

Normally it takes anywere from 15 min to an hour to load or unload, depending ont he type of equipment at the warehouse or the processing facility.

Then you must add pretrip ond Postrip time with fueling time added onto either and all of a sudden I am out of hours if the two hour line two time goes against my 14 hour day.

What can be done to stay legal and away from a ticket in this type of instance?

[Uturn2001]

A few tips:

If you are sleeping at one of the plants then do not start your day in your log book until you are actually loading/unloading.

If you are sleeping at the loaders then combine your pretrip with the time it takes to get loaded. For example if it takes them 1 hour to pump the product into your trailer then log 1 hour on duty and in the remarks section write "Loading/Pre-trip (PTI)"

[golfhobo]

Rat said:

Ok say I start my day

Where? At the processing plant in Dakota?

and and end up sitting for 2 hours waiting before I can even start geting loaded.

You mean after driving back up to Manitoba?

Then I drive to my final destination and get unloaded.

Back in Dakota?

Does this 2 hours count against my on duty time?

Yes, unless you log it as sleeper. Either way, it counts against your 14.

Or can I use it as berth time and take an 8 and be good to go for another 14/11 the next day?

Yes, you can log it in the sleeper, if you're just sitting in the truck (not really legal, but....) But, you will not have a FULL 14/11 reset after the 8. You will need to take the 2 hour break again at the proper time.... see Rawlco's excellent (and approved) explanation!

I quess what I am saying is the run that I am doing sucks up all of 14 hours do to loading, unloading and driving but I usually have to sit for 2 hours waiting before I can even back up and start loading.

You SHOULD be able to fit this 2 hour "detention" into your 14 hour day, if you log it right. If it's LESS than 2 hours, it fits easily (on line 2 OR 4) as you are only driving about 10 hours a day (from your last post) and if it is MORE than 2, I would log it as sleeper and split to stay on schedule.

I did some searching on the net and all I could find is that I can split my berth time as long as one of the berth sections is no less then 8 hours.

That is correct.

Now.... I am a bit confused by this.....

I start my day Line one empty

Line 2 goes to 6:00

Are you taking 10 on line 1 after getting empty? Or are you logging it in the sleeper? WHERE is the line of demarcation between starting on line 1 and "going to 6 on line 2?"

From your "here's the deal" post, it sounds like you consider your day as starting after a long break in Dakota AFTER unloading (empty) and consider your daily run to be from Dakota to Manitoba (where you sit and wait to load) and then back to Dakota. Am I right? Your "example" shows two different drive times for what sounds like the SAME trip either way. Let's assume it takes 5 hours each way. You should be able to throw in 15 mins for fueling once a day, and NO MORE than a half hour for each load and unload. That's 10 hours driving and 1.25 hours on line 4. That leaves up to 2.75 hours of "detention" (which I would log in the sleeper regardless.... to keep it off my 70) before maxing out your 14 hour day. After this, I would take a full 10 hour break at night and start my day at the same time every day. (I'm assuming the shippers might not want to load you at midnight.)

ALWAYS make your logs match your bordercrossing times! Does either the shipper or receiver put TIMES on your BOL? If not, make your log say whatever puts you at the border at the right time.

Maybe, I misunderstood something, but your company seems to have figured this out pretty well..... tight, but legal. Remember.... you CAN be on line 4 unloading PAST your 14 hour window! If you ARE, then you should have logged or "created" a two hour break somewhere during the day so that you CAN split and take only 8 at night... and again start your day at the same time.

But, if you are sleeping at the plant in Manitoba, don't start your log until 15 minutes before you are loaded and ready to drive. This will give you the most time available for your run. If you are sleeping in Dakota, and they don't show what time they unloaded you, well.... you've been on break since shortly after you GOT there. :wink:

Hope this helps.

Oh yeah.... I think everything Rawlco said was correct, but that part about your starting time rotating back by 2 hours per day may not count in YOUR case. Sounds to ME like you can fit everything into a 14 hour day and still shut down for 10 at night and stay on a certain schedule. Unless you can load at all hours of the night, I wouldn't see the advantage to taking the shorter 8 hour break at night, unless you had an extra long detention for loading, and properly logged it as a 2 hour sleeper break (hard to put it on line 1!)

Why are you logging line 4 for an hour EACH for loading and unloading? That's 2 hours/day for what you can LOG as 30 minutes. Throw in an extra 15 mins now and then to fool the "man!" But, you could be saving about 7 or 8 hours a week against your 70! IF (as I believe) you are starting your day empty in Dakota, I would log 15 mins for a pretrip. But, at the end of the day, I would include your post trip in the 15-30 mins I would log as unloading.

The way I see it, you should be showing about 9.5 hrs/day driving, .5 hrs for fueling/PTI, and no more than 1 hour/day total at the docks. That's 11 hours a day on lines 3 and 4. Leaving you 3 hours to log in the sleeper while wasting your time, and STILL stay on the "circadian schedule" the FMCSA hopes for! That's 6 days of work ending around 8 pm on the last day (with 4 hours to spare or "give here and there.")

34 hours later, you get to start all over (if you want) at 6 a.m. again! PERFECT!!

OOPS! this won't work unless you want to flip your schedule from week to week from days to nights! Sorry! I'll try again! (But, you're not answering my questions, so it is difficult!)

couldn't you leave two hours early and be the first in line, then this would be a non issue.

[Drew10]

Just a thought, to help "speed" things up at the shipper. What would be the chances of your company putting a spot trailer at the shipper, and turn your run into a drop and hook. Spot trailer would be loaded and ready when you arrive each time.

[Rat]

Well here is what happened yesterday.


I drove up to a warehouse in Manitoba the night before so I could load in the morning.

I loaded and got going about 6:30 am. Reached the processing plant at 11:00 AM in south central North Dakota. I sat until 2:30 PM brfore they could let me unload. Then I had to get some fuel since I was not able to get it at the beginning of the day so that took about 15 min of driving time to the truck stop and 15 min of time to fuel. I then had to drive 1.75 hours to another warehouse in ND and ended up sitting for over an hour before I could load due to problems with equipment at the warehouse.Ended up using some old trash equipment so it took about an hour to load the truck. Once loaded I had about a 3.5 hour drive to get to a processing plant in North Eastern ND to unload. After unloading I had to get back to base so I could go home which is 45 miles away from were I was unloading.


The processing plants have computerized scales that time stamp your scale ticket when you enter the yard and leave the yard.

But this is usually how my day goes. I try to start my week out by leaving from home to manitoba the night before my first load so I can load early in the morning. Most the time I am doing my pretrip on the 35 hour of my break which means no taking off any earlier.

I take my "Ten" up at a warehouse in Manitoba. These are usually a farm yard of some sort since I am hauling raw potatoes to be processed.

Having another trailer is not an option as there are usually 10 to 20 trucks loading out of the same warehouse each day and we are never at the same warehouse for more then 3 days since we haul from many different producers in Manitoba.

[golfhobo]

Rat said:

The processing plants have computerized scales that time stamp your scale ticket when you enter the yard and leave the yard.

Not enough info. Do they time stamp your BOL?? Are these scale tickets retained? By whom? the yard.... or YOU? Are they free? ALL important questions.

But this is usually how my day goes.

IF you do THIS.....

I try to start my week out by leaving from home to manitoba the night before my first load so I can load early in the morning. Most the time I am doing my pretrip on the 35 hour of my break which means no taking off any earlier.

I don't see HOW you can do THIS....

I take my "Ten" up at a warehouse in Manitoba.

How many runs do you make per week? How much time off? Only a 34 hour reset? Does this change your schedule.... or is that why you waste a 10 hour break in Manitoba only 5 hours after starting your week?

BIG QUESTION....... How do the OTHER drivers manage their week/daily logs?

Can you do THIS??....

Start from home at approx 11 p.m. (North Dakota.) Drive 4-5 hours to Manitoba and PUNCH the scale clock.... THEN take 2 in the sleeper.... THEN load and scale again. Drive 5 hours back to Dakota and scale immediately. Unload (logging all time not actually ON THE DOCK in the sleeper. (okay if you go over 14, but try to show unloading EARLY after getting there.) You don't have to SCALE again when EMPTY, do you? Then take 8-10 hours in the sleeper IN DAKOTA, and start all over at about 11 p.m. Fuel on the way or while STILL on duty before logging sleeper at either end.

Rinse and repeat until you've worked 5 or 6 days (whichever you do,) and finish your week in Dakota.

ONCE you are empty on your last day..... you are considered "unladen" and can drive as long as needed to take you and your truck HOME for your reset! I'm assuming this should only be an hour or two. THIS trip home can be part of your RESET! IF you can SHOW being unloaded by 1 p.m., you can be on the road again 34 hours later at 11 p.m. to start all over. Personally, I would rather just take off when empty on the last day, and then start over at 11 p.m. two nights later.

Point is..... if your LAST day maxes out your 14 before you leave the processing plant, you CAN drive home unladen in your truck WITH or WITHOUT the trailer. (Personal conveyance exception. No need to even log it.)

But.... DO NOT leave home early and drive to Manitoba and THEN take another 10 hour break.

I am TRYING to help you do this LEGAL. If you want other advice, I may be able to help there, too!

I SAID your boss had it figured TIGHT. Your example of what happened "yesterday" might blow that envelope open! I haven't done the math on that example yet.... but it sounds like your problem may have been ONLY how to get "home." That is why I pointed out the fact that the regs LET YOU drive home "unladen" at no expense/regard to your clocks.

If you LIVE in Dakota, and LOAD in Manitoba, I see no other way to do this than to start your 14 in Dakota, and get back there (and empty) each night. Whether you take 8 or 10 there depends on what is the LAST 15 minute block you have to log on line 4. Under your circumstances, I would ALWAYS try to find a way to log 2 hours in the sleeper in Manitoba....even if you have to delay leaving or loading for a short period of time.

NOTE to all others: THIS could be one of those examples I've mentioned where split logging is beneficial to a Solo driver. :wink:

Remember..... if you can GET to your plant in Dakota to unload within your 14 hours, you can finish unloading regardless of the time needed OVER your 14.... but, try not to LOG it at the last minute!

Also remember..... even if OUT of hours on your 14..... if UNLADEN, you can drive your truck/trailer HOME for either a reset OR a 10 HOUR break (I think! Now... where IS that reg book?)

'Nother note: UNLADEN means you are not under dispatch to pick up another load, (and of course, have no load ON your trailer.) Once you leave home UNDER DISPATCH to go to Manitoba to GET a load, you ARE "laden," EVEN if empty! IF you use Qualcomm, and you have been given a preplan or know you are going for another run, DON'T accept the load assignment until after you are through using your truck as a personal conveyance. This "allowance" in the regs SHOULD only be used when going home for a reset, but COULD be used for a "break."

KC.... Rawlco?? Either of you want to point out a mistake here? I'm a bit rusty on these reg issues! This forum has been slow for awhile now!

[Rawlco]

Your explanation of the regs sounds all right to me Hobo. He may have company policy that contradicts that though.

Part of the problem is that you are trying to do a full days work there everyday. Trying to drive 11 hours out of 14 and load and unload TWICE would be a tight fit on the logbook even without equipment problems and loading delays.

If you are going to sit for at least 2 hours somewhere anyway everyday then learning the ins and outs of split logging woudl be very beneficial to you.

The thing I dont' know is how Canada deals with our split logging rules. :shock: That could be a problem.

[Rat]

Reason I leave home and drive for 4 or 5 hours and sit for the night is because of port of entry closing times and the amount of miles it would take to go to a 24 hour port.

Most of the ports open at 8AM and close at 10 pm.

As far as loading, well the private farms were the warehouses are at do not load 24 hours a day. They will quit loading in the early evening and not start loading again till between 6 am and 9 AM depending on if it is a sunday or a week day.

Usually the boss will call me on a tuesday and say I need to be at ?????? farm at between 4 and 6 AM on wed morning. So I need to cross the port the night before and drive to the farm and still have 10 hours berth time so I can start my tour at between 4 and 6 (pending when the farmer climbs out of bed).

I do my pretrip and load as one then start driving. Drive to the processing plant in ND and sit and wait till I can get unloaded. The farmer writes on the BOL the time that he loaded me. I get to the border and I get clocked into the computer as to what time I crossed. I get to the plant and have to scale as soon as I get into the gates. The scale ticket is done electronically so it is time stamped. After unloading I have to scale again so they know how many pounds of product I hauled into the plant and this is also time stamped.

I then need to run to the truck stop and put on some fuel for my return trip to Manitoba so I don't have to purchase fuel up there or at the higher priced stops along the way. We get a deal on fuel at this truck stop so we fuel there. it is a 15 min drive to the stop. I then have to fuel up and grab something to eat. My truck doesn't have the goodies in it as I only have a 12 volt cooler and no room for anything else. I need to also sneek a shower in there when possible.

I then head back to manitoba for the night so I can load in the AM again.


That last day that I did was a little different since I did a back load to get me close to home and get paid for driving the distance. But usually the tour will end with one of these back loads to get the driver home without having to waist fuel pulling an empty trailer.


I quess it would not be such a big deal if the processing plant would actually care that this waiting time or 2 or more hours eats up a persons log book in a hurry.

I looked quick at the split berth thread and it looks like it would not leave me with enough time the next day to complete a round.

Oh a tour is 5 days with 5 loads out of manitoba. The 5th day sometimes leaves us sitting the night in North Dakota till the next morning for a return load back to base.

[Cat6869]

Your explanation of the regs sounds all right to me Hobo. He may have company policy that contradicts that though.

Part of the problem is that you are trying to do a full days work there everyday. Trying to drive 11 hours out of 14 and load and unload TWICE would be a tight fit on the logbook even without equipment problems and loading delays.

If you are going to sit for at least 2 hours somewhere anyway everyday then learning the ins and outs of split logging woudl be very beneficial to you.

The thing I dont' know is how Canada deals with our split logging rules. :shock: That could be a problem.

US drivers can split break while in Canada because in Canada their split breaking is 8 hour break and their 2 hour break can be a combination of say 4 breaks of 30 minutes at a time or longer.

So I
drive 3 hours
off duty 1 hour
drive 4 hours
off duty 30 minutes
drive 2 hours
off duty 30 minutes

That's their 10 hour breaks. So if you split break you are still in compliance without even saying you are split breaking.

I definately no expert on Canadian regs but I know that much

[rigidsporty]

Split sleeper....Minimum 8hrs line 2, and Minimum 2hrs line 1 or 2.
The 2hour line 1 or 2 does not stop the 14hr clock. The 8hr line 2 will stop and reset the clock to the hours you had when you started the 8hr line 2.

I've always been confused about the split sleeper thing, some say you can split it, others say it has to 10 consecutive hours.

Okay, heres a scenario...

I get up and start my day at 07:00. around noon I get sleepy and take a 2 hour nap from noon till 14:00. (I log 2 hours on line 2). I then drive till 20:00 and shut down. (11 hours driving and under the 14). I log 8 hours in line 2 and start rolling again at 04:00.

Now... is that legal?

[Rev.Vassago]

Okay, heres a scenario...

I get up and start my day at 07:00. around noon I get sleepy and take a 2 hour nap from noon till 14:00. (I log 2 hours on line 2). I then drive till 20:00 and shut down. (11 hours driving and under the 14). I log 8 hours in line 2 and start rolling again at 04:00.

Now... is that legal?

Yes it is, but at 04:00, you have 5 hours available to you before you will have to shut down for at least 2 hours again.

[rigidsporty]

Thanks Rev... you just added to my confusion!

I had my 10 hours off... 2 at noon and 8 at 8pm. I should have full 11/14 hours. Your saying the 2 hours at noon didnt count toward my 10? Where did the 5 hours come from?

[Rev.Vassago]

Thanks Rev... you just added to my confusion!

I had my 10 hours off... 2 at noon and 8 at 8pm. I should have full 11/14 hours. Your saying the 2 hours at noon didnt count toward my 10? Where did the 5 hours come from?

When you are splitting, you add up the hours on each side of your break. Those added-up hours cannot exceed the 11/14.

For example, if you drove 4 hours, took an 8 hour break (which stopped the clock), drove 7 hours, then took a 2 hour break (which doesn't stop the clock), you have 4 hours available to you after the break (the 7 before the break plus 4 after the break = 11 hours). You would then need to take an 8 hour break, at which point you would have 7 hours available to you (the 4 hours before the break plus 7 hours after the break = 11 hours). The 14 hour clock is calculated the same way. When the 14 hour clock stops for an 8 hour break, then you add up the hours on both sides of the break to get your total hours for both the 11 hour and 14 hour clocks. When the break is less than 8 hours, you add up both sides of the break to get your 11 hour clock, but continue to count your hours from your last 8 hour break to get your 14 hour clock.

The only thing that will break this cycle is 10 hours in the sleeper. Be aware, however, that if you took an 8 hour break first, you cannot do a 10 hour break on the second break, because it will have put you over your 14 hour clock on the 8 hour break. That 8 hour break stops the 14 hour clock only if combined with another break that is more than 2 hours but less than 10 hours (the regs specifically state that it must be less than 10 hours). If, however, you were to take a 2 hour break first, then later instead of the 8 hour break you did a full 10 hour break, then you would have your full 11 hours driving available to you.

Clear as mud, I know. The new regulations, I believe, were designed to discourage split sleeper berths, as it was one of the issues that the opposition was complaining about.