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Nope... mud is much clearer!I think I'll just take the full 10 and say the hell with it. Thats too much info for my wee brain to compute.
I was asking this because I was looking into going back OTR... this local sh*t doesnt pay worth a damn. I'm tired of being broke. Buying my own truck and leasing on to someone has also crossed my mind a lot lately.
Administrator
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A lot of people get in trouble by splitting their sleeper berth time. The problem comes in when they fail to take their entire sleeper break before maxing out on their driving or work hours. You MUST take the entire 10 hours, whether split or not, before you drive more than 11 hours or on duty for more than 14 hours. Starting out again, it would probably be safer to simply take the 10 hour break at one time.
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I just applied to Beacon out of Nashville. A friend used to drive for them and he liked them... you know anything about them? (Sorry for hijackin the thread)Originally Posted by GMAN
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Rev.Vassago said:
Wrong again, Clyde!The only thing that will break this cycle is 10 hours in the sleeper.Breaking the cycle requires a full 10 hour consecutive break, but.... as ANY of them..... can be taken anywhere, or any combination of line 1 and/or line 2.
STILL wrong, and so far off base as to prove you have NO IDEA what you are talking about!Be aware, however, that if you took an 8 hour break first, you cannot do a 10 hour break on the second break, because it will have put you over your 14 hour clock on the 8 hour break.
WHY do you insist on confusing the newbies??That 8 hour break stops the 14 hour clock only if combined with another break that is more than 2 hours but less than 10 hours (the regs specifically state that it must be less than 10 hours).
The "caveat" of LESS THAN 10 HOURS is found in conjunction with wording concerning the 2 hour break and the 8 hour S/B break....
Because.... and ONLY because..... if it were MORE than 10 hours, it would no longer be part of a "split," but would qualify as a full 10 hour break, which would then reset your 11/14 hour clocks TOTALLY, and they would no longer be contingent on the end of your previous break, and no driving hours prior to such a 10 hour break would THEN be counted against your new clocks!
Oh, and BTW.... regardless of what you do on your second (or so-called smaller break,) an 8 hour S/B break is ALWAYS OFF THE CLOCK! Whether or not you meet the requirements of the split break or not..... an 8 hour S/B break is ALWAYS off the clock! If you fail to take the minimum 2 hour break at the proper time, you WILL get a violation, but that violation will occur at a point in time that is calculated with the 8 hour break OFF THE CLOCK! [I believe there is an example of this in the logbook section of the fmcsa website.]
This is correct, but it also applies to a scenario where you might take an 8 hour break first (OFF THE CLOCK) and then, instead of the 2 hour break needed, you ended up taking a full 10 hour (or more) break.If, however, you were to take a 2 hour break first, then later instead of the 8 hour break you did a full 10 hour break, then you would have your full 11 hours driving available to you.
Only when YOU try to explain them!Clear as mud, I know.
You can "believe" what you want, but the purpose of the 8/2 split vs. the 5/5 split was due to medical evidence that the human body needed at least 7 hours of "resorative" rest at ONE TIME to avoid a compounding effect of sleep deprivation.The new regulations, I believe, were designed to discourage split sleeper berths, as it was one of the issues that the opposition was complaining about.
The FMCSA fought HARD to maintain SOME form of a split breaking system. They could have done away with it entirely. Personally, I find the new rules work very well for me in both getting the needed sleep AND giving me a way to "log off" 2 hours of the 10 for lunch or showers or whatever that DON'T come at the end of my day.
Now, before you fly off the handle and insist you are correct, I suggest you consult with Rawlco to confirm what I am saying. That way, there will be no need for this to go 10 pages full of insults. You can simply admit you are mistaken, and perhaps even LEARN something that might help you in your career.
Remember... friends are few and far between.
TRUCKIN' AIN'T FOR WUSSES!!!
"I am willing to admit that I was wrong." The Rev.
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No, it isn't. Let's look at the regs:
§395.1 Scope of rules in this part.
(g)(1)(ii)(A) The term “equivalent of at least 10 consecutive hours off duty” means a period of
(1) At least 8 but less than 10 consecutive hours in a sleeper berth, and
(2) A separate period of at least 2 but less than 10 consecutive hours either in the sleeper berth or off duty, or any combination thereof.
AS ANYONE WITH A BRAIN CAN PLAINLY SEE, each part of the split sleeper berth period MUST be less than 10 hours for it to count as part of the split sleeper berth break.
It most certainly does:The "caveat" of LESS THAN 10 HOURS is found in conjunction with wording concerning the 2 hour break and the 8 hour S/B break....
Because.... and ONLY because..... if it were MORE than 10 hours, it would no longer be part of a "split," but would qualify as a full 10 hour break, which would then reset your 11/14 hour clocks TOTALLY, and they would no longer be contingent on the end of your previous break, and no driving hours prior to such a 10 hour break would THEN be counted against your new clocks!
(g)(1)(ii)(C) Calculation of the 14-hour limit includes all time except any sleeper-berth period of at least 8 but less than 10 consecutive hours; compliance must be re-calculated from the end of the first of the two periods used to comply with the requirements of paragraph (g)(1)(ii)(A) of this section.[/b]
ONCE AGAIN, ANYONE WITH A BRAIN CAN SEE that the regs specifically state that for an 8 hour period to not count toward the 14 hour, it must be LESS than 10 hours.
Wrong again, kiddo. Time for you to shut up and go away.Oh, and BTW.... regardless of what you do on your second (or so-called smaller break,) an 8 hour S/B break is ALWAYS OFF THE CLOCK! Whether or not you meet the requirements of the split break or not..... an 8 hour S/B break is ALWAYS off the clock!
Is Rawlco a representative of the FMCSA? The regs are once again clear. More than 8, less than 10. Otherwise it counts when splitting.Now, before you fly off the handle and insist you are correct, I suggest you consult with Rawlco to confirm what I am saying.
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Rev.Vassago said:
Yes.... it IS. Just as you can interrupt your 70 hour rule at any time and take a 34 hr reset and start your calculations all over, you CAN interrupt a "split" logging at any time (within the properly calculated 14 hour window) by taking a break of 10 "consecutive" hours on either line 1 or 2. If you had taken an 8 hour sleeper berth break, it would STILL be off the clock (the logbook examples prove this) and NOW you are just "reseting" your 11/14 hour clocks by taking a full 10 hours off. This is considered "returning to driving subject to the normal limits" as defined here: [I call it breaking the split, for ease of understanding.]No, it isn't.
Let's look at the regs:(g)(2)(iv) The driver may not return to driving subject to the normal limits under §395.3 without taking at least 10 consecutive hours off duty, at least 10 consecutive hours in the sleeper berth or other sleeping accommodations, or a combination of at least 10 consecutive hours off duty, sleeper berth time, or time in other sleeping accommodations.
This is true, but not what you said in your original post. It MUST be less than 10 hours to be considered part of "splitting" because, as anyone with a brain can see, if it were MORE than 10 hours, it would negate the split and totally reset your clocks! That's why I said that any break over 10 hours consecutive is not "part of the discussion" (of split logging.) see below.§395.1 Scope of rules in this part.
(g)(1)(ii)(A) The term “equivalent of at least 10 consecutive hours off duty” means a period of
(1) At least 8 but less than 10 consecutive hours in a sleeper berth, and
(2) A separate period of at least 2 but less than 10 consecutive hours either in the sleeper berth or off duty, or any combination thereof.
AS ANYONE WITH A BRAIN CAN PLAINLY SEE, each part of the split sleeper berth period MUST be less than 10 hours for it to count as part of the split sleeper berth break.
The "caveat" of LESS THAN 10 HOURS is found in conjunction with wording concerning the 2 hour break and the 8 hour S/B break....
Because.... and ONLY because..... if it were MORE than 10 hours, it would no longer be part of a "split," but would qualify as a full 10 hour break, which would then reset your 11/14 hour clocks TOTALLY, and they would no longer be contingent on the end of your previous break, and no driving hours prior to such a 10 hour break would THEN be counted against your new clocks!Actually, what it says is..... for an 8 hour SLEEPER BERTH period to not count..... again, obviously because if it were 10 or more, it would reset your clocks and there would be no need to "exclude" it from the previous 14 hour calculation.It most certainly does:
(g)(1)(ii)(C) Calculation of the 14-hour limit includes all time except any sleeper-berth period of at least 8 but less than 10 consecutive hours; compliance must be re-calculated from the end of the first of the two periods used to comply with the requirements of paragraph (g)(1)(ii)(A) of this section.[/b]
ONCE AGAIN, ANYONE WITH A BRAIN CAN SEE that the regs specifically state that for an 8 hour period to not count toward the 14 hour, it must be LESS than 10 hours.
NO, I am not wrong. The logbook example (can't remember the # off the top of my head,) proves this. There is an example where the driver took an 8 hour S/B break followed a little later by a break of 1.75 hours IIRC. As a result of NOT meeting the requirements of the "split," he got both an 11 hour AND 14 hour violation. (IIRC) But look at the TIME that he got the 14 hour violation. It would ONLY occur at that specific time IF the 8 hour S/B break was still considered off the clock!Wrong again, kiddo. Time for you to shut up and go away.Oh, and BTW.... regardless of what you do on your second (or so-called smaller break,) an 8 hour S/B break is ALWAYS OFF THE CLOCK! Whether or not you meet the requirements of the split break or not..... an 8 hour S/B break is ALWAYS off the clock!
Maybe it is time for YOU to shut up and go away..... Kiddo!
You mean "otherwise it DOESN'T count when splitting" don't you? :wink:Is Rawlco a representative of the FMCSA? The regs are once again clear. More than 8, less than 10. Otherwise it counts when splitting.Now, before you fly off the handle and insist you are correct, I suggest you consult with Rawlco to confirm what I am saying.
Remember... friends are few and far between.
TRUCKIN' AIN'T FOR WUSSES!!!
"I am willing to admit that I was wrong." The Rev.
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Blah blah blah you know you are wrong. Just go back out on the road so I can have some peace and quiet. The person asking the question was answered several days ago, and was satisfied with the answer. Your drivel was not needed.
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Neither was YOUR misinterpretation of the regs! I am not wrong. YOU are. And I'm SURE there are a few here that know it. Maybe, they will show up while I'm gone this week, and you will LEARN something. Maybe not.
Remember... friends are few and far between.
TRUCKIN' AIN'T FOR WUSSES!!!
"I am willing to admit that I was wrong." The Rev.
Guest
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No, it was the FMCSA interpretation of the regs. I've already discussed this with them at length back when the regs were changed, and they confirmed what I already stated: If you take the 8 hour break first, it must be combined with an additional break that is more than 2 hours, but less than 10 hours. That is the only way that the 14 hour clock stops, is if that 8 hour break is combined with an additional break of more than 2 hours, but less than 14 hours.Neither was YOUR misinterpretation of the regs! I am not wrong. YOU are. And I'm SURE there are a few here that know it. Maybe, they will show up while I'm gone this week, and you will LEARN something. Maybe not.
The only way that you can get the "equivalent of at least 10 consecutive hours off duty" is to take two breaks - and neither can be more than 10 hours. If you did not take two breaks, with neither being more than 10 hours, you did not get the "equivalent of at least 10 consecutive hours off duty" according to the FMCSA.(g)(1)(ii)(A) The term “equivalent of at least 10 consecutive hours off duty” means a period of
(1) At least 8 but less than 10 consecutive hours in a sleeper berth, and
(2) A separate period of at least 2 but less than 10 consecutive hours either in the sleeper berth or off duty, or any combination thereof.
An 8 hour break and a 10 hour break combined do not meet the specifications listed by 395.1 (g)(1)(ii)(A).
Furthermore, for the 8 hour break to not count when splitting, it must be more than 8 hours but less than 10 hours:
If you take an 8 hour break, then take an additional 10 hour break, the first 8 hour break does not meet the requirements set forth by 395.1 (g)(1)(ii)(C).(g)(1)(ii)(C) Calculation of the 14-hour limit includes all time except any sleeper-berth period of at least 8 but less than 10 consecutive hours;compliance must be re-calculated from the end of the first of the two periods used to comply with the requirements of paragraph (g)(1)(ii)(A) of this section.
Once again, golfhobo is proven wrong by the regs.
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I just applied to Beacon out of Nashville. A friend used to drive for them and he liked them... you know anything about them? (Sorry for hijackin the thread)
I don't recall hearing anything negative about them. I don't know if that is good or bad.They have a terminal in LaVergne, so you should be able to find some of their drivers or owner operators who can give you current information about them and how they like working for them. They should be somewhere around the TA if they are in LaVergne. You may even run into some of their drivers at the TA. Have you decided to buy or just driver for a carrier?
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At this point, I assume you are just bloviating and bull*****ting to cover the fact that you were wrong, and don't want to admit it. I further assume that you KNOW you are wrong, and no futher discussion is necessary.No, it was the FMCSA interpretation of the regs. I've already discussed this with them at length back when the regs were changed, and they confirmed what I already stated: If you take the 8 hour break first, it must be combined with an additional break that is more than 2 hours, but less than 10 hours. That is the only way that the 14 hour clock stops, is if that 8 hour break is combined with an additional break of more than 2 hours, but less than 14 hours.Neither was YOUR misinterpretation of the regs! I am not wrong. YOU are. And I'm SURE there are a few here that know it. Maybe, they will show up while I'm gone this week, and you will LEARN something. Maybe not.
The only way that you can get the "equivalent of at least 10 consecutive hours off duty" is to take two breaks - and neither can be more than 10 hours. If you did not take two breaks, with neither being more than 10 hours, you did not get the "equivalent of at least 10 consecutive hours off duty" according to the FMCSA.(g)(1)(ii)(A) The term “equivalent of at least 10 consecutive hours off duty” means a period of
(1) At least 8 but less than 10 consecutive hours in a sleeper berth, and
(2) A separate period of at least 2 but less than 10 consecutive hours either in the sleeper berth or off duty, or any combination thereof.
An 8 hour break and a 10 hour break combined do not meet the specifications listed by 395.1 (g)(1)(ii)(A).
Furthermore, for the 8 hour break to not count when splitting, it must be more than 8 hours but less than 10 hours:
If you take an 8 hour break, then take an additional 10 hour break, the first 8 hour break does not meet the requirements set forth by 395.1 (g)(1)(ii)(C).(g)(1)(ii)(C) Calculation of the 14-hour limit includes all time except any sleeper-berth period of at least 8 but less than 10 consecutive hours;compliance must be re-calculated from the end of the first of the two periods used to comply with the requirements of paragraph (g)(1)(ii)(A) of this section.
Once again, golfhobo is proven wrong by the regs.
8 hours in the sleeper is ALWAYS "off the clock."
There is no reg against taking a 10 hour break following an 8 hour S/B break.
A 10 hour break taken ANYWHERE will "break the cycle."
Everything I quoted you on, and said you were wrong about, you WERE wrong about.
Remember... friends are few and far between.
TRUCKIN' AIN'T FOR WUSSES!!!
"I am willing to admit that I was wrong." The Rev.
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So sayeth Last Word Larry, the (less than) 3 year WonderTroll.
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So..... is that an admission that you are wrong and you KNOW it?
Here's the thing, Rev. Yes, I have only been in the industry for 3 years. But, that means I never had to learn or operate under ANY of the "old rules." I know enough about them to know the changes that were made, but I am not "confused" by them when considering the rules as they are now.
I mean no disrespect to ANY of the more experienced drivers here when I say that I have found that MANY drivers who lived under the "old rules" have had problems forgetting them, so to speak, and embracing and understanding the NEW rules. I can see where some of the confusion comes from.
Nor do I mean any disrespect to the many O/O's here who never had a safety department (or in some cases even a CDL mill) to "teach" them the rules, be they the old ones or the new ones.
But, in your interpretations, I see an O/O who may have never had to go through a school, or had a safety manager, to teach them the rules..... or to be argued with. You MAY have been on your own to discern the rules for yourself from the beginning, and those rules have changed a few times.
For whatever reason, your recent post contained several glaring misconceptions which I quoted. I understand where the confusion comes from, but I can do nothing more than point out your errors, and correct them. As long as you continue to maintain that you are right, and quote regs that further confuse the issue, I cannot seem to make you understand the truth.
It is very simple, really. ALL references in the regs to "less than 10 hours" has the meaning and intent to distinguish between timeframes that would lend themselves to "split logging" versus a full 10 hour break which immediately breaks the cycle, and returns the driver to full clocks and "regular" provisions of the 11/14 hour clocks.
If a driver was so inclined (which would be a major waste of his time,) he could drive 5, break in the SLEEPER for 8, drive 6, break in the SLEEPER for 8, drive 5...... rinse and repeat forever and never incur a violation unless, or until he exceeded 70 hours on duty in 8 days.
Likewise, a driver can "split" 8 and 2, in ANY ORDER, and break the cycle at any time with a full 10 hours break (continuous) on lines 1, 2 or a combination.
There is NO reg that says you MUST take the 2 hour break first. And there is NO violation if you follow EITHER break with a full and continuous 10 hour break (if done within the time limits.)
You were WRONG..... plain and simple..... and you owe the poster an acknowledgement of this, instead of continuing to play games with me by quoting regs that sound like they support your position.
Obviously, any reg that is "defining" the rules of split logging, is going to EXCLUDE a full 10 hour break, because that would break the split. But, that is a far cry from saying that one CANNOT take a 10 hour break following either a 2 hour OR 8 hour break.
The 8 hour S/B break will ALWAYS be "off the clock," and any calculation of the 14 hour rule MUST exclude ANY 8 hour S/B break, regardless of what follows!
You cannot get a 14 hour violation while TAKING a 10 hour break (as you stated) if one didn't occur before you began that break.
And the cycle will be broken by ANY 10 consecutive hour break spent ANYWHERE.... not just the sleeper!
You made 3 erroneous statements, and I called you on them. If you don't understand where you are wrong, I suggest you attend a "refresher course" to keep your CDL! If you REALLY don't understand where and THAT you are wrong..... GOD help you! That might explain why it took you about 3 days to get from Georgia (or wherever) back up North where you belong!
Last Word Larry.
Remember... friends are few and far between.
TRUCKIN' AIN'T FOR WUSSES!!!
"I am willing to admit that I was wrong." The Rev.
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And what does that say about YOU.... when a (less than) 3 year "company driver" knows more about the HOS rules (and many others) than YOU??
12 years on the road, and you STILL can't get it right? And, by your own admission, this is pretty much "all you know?" :shock:
I really have to question, at this point in your "young" life, if you really know anything?
Remember... friends are few and far between.
TRUCKIN' AIN'T FOR WUSSES!!!
"I am willing to admit that I was wrong." The Rev.
Rookie
i dont start my logs until im loaded ready to go. then i put a pretrp/load a half hr on line 4 b4 i start on line 3 drivin out. thatll move all the wait time to the break i was finishing.....unless u have to drive to a customer then wait, but if the customer aint too far away u can "start" ur day when ur ready to pull off the property. sometimes ppl get jumpy an start loggin then run into havin to wait at customer forever u get raked over that way
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That is a violation of the rules.
Rookie
tell em how it is golf......whats wrong w this guy lol.....if it was illegal to do an 8 hr then a 10 then ida been in violation MANY times, lol....unrealRev.Vassago said:
Wrong again, Clyde!
STILL wrong, and so far off base as to prove you have NO IDEA what you are talking about!
WHY do you insist on confusing the newbies??
The "caveat" of LESS THAN 10 HOURS is found in conjunction with wording concerning the 2 hour break and the 8 hour S/B break....
Because.... and ONLY because..... if it were MORE than 10 hours, it would no longer be part of a "split," but would qualify as a full 10 hour break, which would then reset your 11/14 hour clocks TOTALLY, and they would no longer be contingent on the end of your previous break, and no driving hours prior to such a 10 hour break would THEN be counted against your new clocks!
Oh, and BTW.... regardless of what you do on your second (or so-called smaller break,) an 8 hour S/B break is ALWAYS OFF THE CLOCK! Whether or not you meet the requirements of the split break or not..... an 8 hour S/B break is ALWAYS off the clock! If you fail to take the minimum 2 hour break at the proper time, you WILL get a violation, but that violation will occur at a point in time that is calculated with the 8 hour break OFF THE CLOCK! [I believe there is an example of this in the logbook section of the fmcsa website.]
This is correct, but it also applies to a scenario where you might take an 8 hour break first (OFF THE CLOCK) and then, instead of the 2 hour break needed, you ended up taking a full 10 hour (or more) break.
Only when YOU try to explain them!
You can "believe" what you want, but the purpose of the 8/2 split vs. the 5/5 split was due to medical evidence that the human body needed at least 7 hours of "resorative" rest at ONE TIME to avoid a compounding effect of sleep deprivation.
The FMCSA fought HARD to maintain SOME form of a split breaking system. They could have done away with it entirely. Personally, I find the new rules work very well for me in both getting the needed sleep AND giving me a way to "log off" 2 hours of the 10 for lunch or showers or whatever that DON'T come at the end of my day.
Now, before you fly off the handle and insist you are correct, I suggest you consult with Rawlco to confirm what I am saying. That way, there will be no need for this to go 10 pages full of insults. You can simply admit you are mistaken, and perhaps even LEARN something that might help you in your career.
Rookie
not really, ur jus changin it around a lil........just pushin ur start time out a lil
Rookie
ur spossed to do 8 hrs 1st THEN 2 hrs.....the 2 hrs at noon jus comes off ur 14 hr clock.....they used to be able to do 2 n 8 or 8 n 2 till 2005 i thinkThanks Rev... you just added to my confusion!
I had my 10 hours off... 2 at noon and 8 at 8pm. I should have full 11/14 hours. Your saying the 2 hours at noon didnt count toward my 10? Where did the 5 hours come from?
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Sorry, but you are incorrect. There is nothing in the regs that stipulates the 8 hour break first. In fact, most examples show the opposite. There are, however, examples of BOTH in the logbook examples section of the FMCSA website.
BTW... I understand what you are "doing" with your logs, and many "do it," but Rev is right that it is a violation of the regs.... in fact, log falsification. Don't get caught! LOL.
Last edited by golfhobo; 02-22-2009 at 08:57 AM.
Remember... friends are few and far between.
TRUCKIN' AIN'T FOR WUSSES!!!
"I am willing to admit that I was wrong." The Rev.
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