Team Logging Questions

[PorkChop81]

Ok, I drive a dully w/ a 50ft car trailer. I make runs from Jersey to FL and back a couple times a month. I have a buddy that wants to get into this biz and I'm wondering if he's riding/driving how we can log this? Currently I log ALL non on/driving hrs as OFF, never any sleeper. So far I haven't had any issues or questions with this. BUT...being that there would be another driver, could I still log OFF even when the truck is moving with him driving? I'm sure this is going to peak some smartass comments and I know better, but I had to ask. Just wondering with 2 people, if you could still simply log off duty with both people and be ok!

Thanks for the readying yet another dumb question!

chop

[VitoCorleone99]

If you're in a hotel or something, you would both be showing off duty, but if one driver shows driving the other would have to account for being in the truck. If you're in the truck, you are either driving or in the sleeper. Those are your only two options, according to the law.

What can you get away with? I don't have a clue. Maybe some team drivers can help there, but the regs are very clear on a team driver riding in the passenger seat.

[Bandit102]

I pulled a 3 car trailer with a crewcab ford for a couple of years. You'd better not let the DOT know if you are catching your naps in that truck. Its not legal. There HAS to be a sleeper with certain dimensions, mattress, etc. in order to log sleeper. You CANNOT team a truck with no sleeper. If one driver is not in the SLEEPER, he's on duty as long as that truck is moving, no matter who's driving it.

[Uturn2001]

If you're in the truck, you are either driving or in the sleeper. Those are your only two options, according to the law.

Sorry, but you are only partially correct. You can also log On duty Not driving. This is what you are suppose to log if you are riding in the passenger seat.

[Uturn2001]

FMCSA REGS SLEEPER BERTHS

[VitoCorleone99]

If you're in the truck, you are either driving or in the sleeper. Those are your only two options, according to the law.

Sorry, but you are only partially correct. You can also log On duty Not driving. This is what you are suppose to log if you are riding in the passenger seat.

I meant to say "either working or in the sleeper." Correction noted.

[Cat6869]

Ok, I drive a dully w/ a 50ft car trailer. I make runs from Jersey to FL and back a couple times a month. I have a buddy that wants to get into this biz and I'm wondering if he's riding/driving how we can log this? Currently I log ALL non on/driving hrs as OFF, never any sleeper. So far I haven't had any issues or questions with this. BUT...being that there would be another driver, could I still log OFF even when the truck is moving with him driving? I'm sure this is going to peak some smartass comments and I know better, but I had to ask. Just wondering with 2 people, if you could still simply log off duty with both people and be ok!

Thanks for the readying yet another dumb question!

chop

If you are on the truck you are either in the sleeper, driving or on-duty not driving.

1) if you are off duty you are NOT on the TRUCK @ all@
2) if you are in the sleeper you are in the sleeper (does not mean you are sleeping, just the fact your body is in the sleeper.
3) if you are behind the wheel, you are on line 3 "driving".
4) if you are sitting in the passenger seat while "someone" is driving the truck, you are on-duty not driving.

If you are training and the driver is behind the wheel you "must" log line 4 time.

I hope this helps somewhat?

[headborg]

you can be a team co-driver and be riding in the passenger seat and logging -- Off duty; there's no rule preventing this. But, this is a quick way to end up with ticket for --false logging. Example- you roll thru a scale house and you're showing as being "in the sleeper"- but they see you in the "jump seat"---there's a quick ticket. With the new HOS rules- this could become a new "hot topic". Or, if your co-driver gets pulled over for something- you need to be - in the right area of the truck- because your log book is required to be current to the "last change of duty status"-- this includes coming out of the sleeper berth and jumping in passenger seat. Only a trainer performing
"training duties" is required to log "on duty- not driving' when in the jump seat.

[VitoCorleone99]

you can be a team co-driver and be riding in the passenger seat and logging -- Off duty; there's no rule preventing this. But, this is a quick way to end up with ticket for --false logging. Example- you roll thru a scale house and you're showing as being "in the sleeper"- but they see you in the "jump seat"---there's a quick ticket. With the new HOS rules- this could become a new "hot topic". Or, if your co-driver gets pulled over for something- you need to be - in the right area of the truck- because your log book is required to be current to the "last change of duty status"-- this includes coming out of the sleeper berth and jumping in passenger seat. Only a trainer performing
"training duties" is required to log "on duty- not driving' when in the jump seat.

No, actually you can't log "off duty" if you're in the truck.

Found here.

Question 13: What is the duty status of a co-driver (truck) who is riding seated next to the driver?

Guidance: On-duty (not driving).

Pursuant to this definition:

On duty time shall include:...

(4) All time, other than driving time, in or upon any commercial motor vehicle except time spent resting in a sleeper berth;

[headborg]

you can be a team co-driver and be riding in the passenger seat and logging -- Off duty; there's no rule preventing this. But, this is a quick way to end up with ticket for --false logging. Example- you roll thru a scale house and you're showing as being "in the sleeper"- but they see you in the "jump seat"---there's a quick ticket. With the new HOS rules- this could become a new "hot topic". Or, if your co-driver gets pulled over for something- you need to be - in the right area of the truck- because your log book is required to be current to the "last change of duty status"-- this includes coming out of the sleeper berth and jumping in passenger seat. Only a trainer performing
"training duties" is required to log "on duty- not driving' when in the jump seat.

No, actually you can't log "off duty" if you're in the truck.

Found here.

Question 13: What is the duty status of a co-driver (truck) who is riding seated next to the driver?

Guidance: On-duty (not driving).

Pursuant to this definition:

On duty time shall include:...

(4) All time, other than driving time, in or upon any commercial motor vehicle except time spent resting in a sleeper berth;

thanks for the update; Guidance--- times chance.

so; The driver that once challenged it- claiming:

395.8
(1) OFF-DUTY. Except for time spent resting in a sleeper berth, a continuous line shall be drawn between the appropritate time markers to record the period(s) of time when the driver is not on duty, is not required to be in readiness to work, or is not under any responsiblity for performing work.

That doesn't work anymore?

or the another driver who successfully argued the passenger seat was part of the Sleeper under 393.76(b)(2)?
.....A sleeper berth installed on or after January 1, 1953 must be located IN THE CAB or immediately adjacent to the cab....

See, that used to be the only way you could stagger back from the Bar---drunk off your ass and climb into your truck--the cops would set and watch for the dumb drivers who just partied at Southern Comfort--Conley, Ga and climbed into their trucks Driver Seat---because the rules used to read---the driver's seat was the only seat that's ON DUTY or preparing to be Driving. The rule of that day was always climb into your truck--drunk on the passenger side.

Also, unless they've revised the definition of "on duty"---does it still read?:

395.2 On Duty Time means all time from the time a driver begins to work(meaning the start of his/her 14hour 'clock')or is required to be in readiness to work until the time the driver is relieved from work and all responsibility for performing work......
If, you haven't started your 14hour work clock or 'shift'--you haven't came on duty---yet.


I was reading the other day where teams were asking DOT this very question; about stopping at a rest area---if it interruped the co-driver's 8hr
sleeper berth break( wife needed to pee ) the DOT stated the rules were
not that Draconian and they understood that from time to time people do come out of the sleeper for potty breaks, etc. They also asked if, co-driver could log combination off-duty/ sleeper for a full 10hrs( while the truck was moving) and DOT said yes!

and last but not least; the OP stated he was driving a duelly pickup truck pulling a car hauling trailer.......unless the combination exceeds 26,000 pounds--he's not even defined as a CMV-----and doesn't need a CDL (there's still a big gray area here)
since there's no need for CDL's--- I'd just say he's your cousin or brother-in law and is just along for the ride.

[VitoCorleone99]

Do I think you're in a "state of readiness" for work if you're in the passenger seat jamming some Creedence? No, I don't think so. Common sense would suggest not. Common sense also has little to do with the laws that regulate us.

The rule does contain the text that you quoted, and the definitions also contain various details including item #4. While I'm sure we're all in favor of finding gray areas when they suit us, that definition leaves no gray area. The definitions are inclusive, so failing to meet one definition of "on duty" doesn't exempt a driver who meets a different definition of the same term. The guidance takes it one step further and spells out the answer in no uncertain terms.

Does that mean you get a ticket? Roll the dice if you want to, I suppose. I live in a world where 99 out of 100 cops wouldn't care, but the one cop who checks my log will have just caught his wife screwing his brother the night before he stops me.

I won't even pretend to know what a truck, a 50' trailer, and a set of cars would weigh. If there's no CDL and no log involved, then I guess the whole conversation could be irrelevant. Concerning team drivers that do keep logs, however, it wouldn't be too smart to log something in a manner that is explicitly forbidden by the regulations.

[headborg]

Vito, I do agree- the "guidance" question #13 clearly spells out a very basic situation- based on a very simple question. If the question had involved more detail---like the 2 "guidance" questions involving communication with the driver during his rest period by various electronic means- the answer might have been very different.


I would go by the rule exactly as it's written.

example 1; a team driving a CMV with sleeper- one driver drives 30 minutes to the next rest area- then they switch off, and that driver jumps into the passanger seat- and they keep switching off every hour or so (I know this is a stupid scenario) but; in this case both drivers have came on-duty and now they both would have to log on-duty, not driving each time they hit the passenger seat.

example 2;
a team driving a cmv with sleeper- one driver relieves the other at the end of her 11 hrs driving; that driver goes "off duty"( maybe at the T/S first- then straight to the sleeper) the truck rolls 4 hrs down the road--- the co-driver wakes up and wants a cig and sandwitch-- she makes 2 and jumps in the passenger seat. That can't count as "on duty"---
this is the exact thing Teams were up in arms over----a stupid rule--that would completely make a team operated truck- one driver a prisoner in the sleeper for 8hrs straight.

[VitoCorleone99]

It's certainly not a sensible rule, but "exactly as it is written" includes the definitions, which are a part of the regulation (as opposed to the guidance). The definition is black and white.

The driver in example 2 would be best advised to log sleeper berth the whole time in order to comply with the regulation. As a practical matter, one could explain that she left the sleeper to have a sandwich for a few minutes and intended to return to the sleeper in short order. One could not explain away a log entry showing a status (off duty) that is in direct violation of the rules as they are written.

Either way, it makes no difference to me. I take my breaks wherever and whenever I want to. Leave that team stuff for people with a real work ethic.

[headborg]

well If you wanted to complicate the situation- how about this one:

Team drivers driving a CMV- bobtail the truck to Wal-mart for "personal use"- the "10-ton taxi" rule, now the DRIVER of the truck by Law can Log-
OFF DUTY while driving the tractor---now, under that narrow interpatation of the rule- if the co-driver was riding 'shot-gun' they would have to be logging-
"on duty, not driving" while the driver is OFF DUTY-----

see how that's a laugh.

But, you're right about best practice is to always show 'in-sleeper' when not driving and the truck is moving. Any other would mess up the 8hr sleeper berth provision.

[VitoCorleone99]

I'd actually be interested to hear their take on that one. Given the FMCSA's proclivity to make simple things complicated, they would likely say that the truck in that instance is not considered "moving" even as it rolls down the highway. That's about as logical as anything else they do.

Edit to add a more likely line from the lawyers:
The truck, as a "personal conveyance," is no longer a CMV until its use as a personal coveyance has concluded. Therefore neither driver is "in or upon a CMV."

I think I could be a fed if I had to.

[Bandit102]

My rig weighed as high as 36,400# loaded. You damn well do have to have the cdl and logbook for this sort of operation.

You damn well better not try logging sleeper or off duty time in this sort of rig as a passenger who has signed a log page in that rig. You damn well better not try logging sleeper as the driver in this sort of rig. I'm telling you from experience.

There's my 2 cents.

[golfhobo]

Dawn/CAT said:

If you are on the truck you are either in the sleeper, driving or on-duty not driving.

1) if you are off duty you are NOT on the TRUCK @ all@

Sorry, Dawn.... but I respectfully disagree! (see how EASY that was, Rev?)

If you are "relieved of work, or readiness for work," i.e. you are on a required off duty break, there is NO REG that says you can't spend part of that time on the truck... and NOT necessarily in the sleeper. If you are ONLY taking an 8 hour sleeper break (for the purpose of split logging,) you WOULD have to be in the sleeper. But, if you are taking the full 10 hours, and therefore do NOT fall under the definition of ON DUTY, you are free to LEAVE the truck OR the premises.... but you are NOT "barred" from sitting in your truck. If you are a SOLO driver, and OFF DUTY, the truck is not "in operation" and you are not "in readiness to go to work."

2) if you are in the sleeper you are in the sleeper (does not mean you are sleeping, just the fact your body is in the sleeper.
3) if you are behind the wheel, you are on line 3 "driving".

NOT if the vehicle is NOT "in operation" because you are OFF DUTY.

4) if you are sitting in the passenger seat while "someone" is driving the truck, you are on-duty not driving.

This is TRUE, because as a co-driver you qualify as a "driver" and the vehicle is IN OPERATION.

If you are training and the driver is behind the wheel you "must" log line 4 time.

ONLY if you "sometimes" drive the truck, qualifying you as a "driver." A "trainer" who never drives the truck, does NOT have to log line 4. Stupid, I know.... but by the regs, nonetheless. [I expect I'll be "challenged" on this, and I can't find the reg/guidance that supports it just now, but I'll let it stand subject to correction.]

I hope this helps somewhat?

Certainly no LESS helpful than the REST of us who think we know what we are talking about!!

[golfhobo]

HeadBorg wrote:

thanks for the update; Guidance--- times change.

so; The driver that once challenged it- claiming:

395.8
(1) OFF-DUTY. Except for time spent resting in a sleeper berth, a continuous line shall be drawn between the appropritate time markers to record the period(s) of time when the driver is not on duty, is not required to be in readiness to work, or is not under any responsiblity for performing work.

That doesn't work anymore?

I think it does.... or SHOULD. As long as you are taking a full 10 hour break, and you show the time spent in the sleeper vs. that being "off duty" but NOT in the sleeper, you SHOULD be able to be in the passenger seat while the truck is moving, and YOU are "off duty." However, there IS a reg OR a "guidance" that suggests otherwise.

or another driver who successfully argued the passenger seat was part of the Sleeper under 393.76(b)(2)?
.....A sleeper berth installed on or after January 1, 1953 must be located IN THE CAB or immediately adjacent to the cab....

This one I don't think applies. The LOCATION of the sleeper berth is CLEARLY stated as being "in" the cab, but with access to the PASSENGER COMPARTMENT. That alone says the passenger seat is NOT part of the sleeper. I wouldn't want to get caught in the passenger seat while my log said I was in the SLEEPER. On the OTHER hand, as long as you were logging an entire 10 hour break "off duty," I don't see why you couldn't be Off Duty in the passenger seat. You may have to log line 1, however. But...... then there IS that reg/definition that seems to say you CAN'T!

See, that used to be the only way you could stagger back from the Bar---drunk off your ass and climb into your truck--the cops would set and watch for the dumb drivers who just partied at Southern Comfort--Conley, Ga and climbed into their trucks Driver Seat---because the rules used to read---the driver's seat was the only seat that's ON DUTY or preparing to be Driving. The rule of that day was always climb into your truck--drunk on the passenger side.

I don't know what the rules USED to read (in this case,) but the problem here was NOT so much that you "blew" the FMCSA regs by climbing into the drivers seat.... I believe you did NOT.... but that in many states, being behind the wheel and drunk would get you a DUI! Were the cops looking for DUI's?? Or enforcing FMCSA regs??

Also, unless they've revised the definition of "on duty"---does it still read?:

395.2 On Duty Time means all time from the time a driver begins to work(meaning the start of his/her 14hour 'clock')or is required to be in readiness to work until the time the driver is relieved from work and all responsibility for performing work......
If, you haven't started your 14hour work clock or 'shift'--you haven't came on duty---yet.

YES.... it DOES. Therefore.... the definition of Driving Time does NOT apply if you are OFF DUTY. If you look at the definitions (that someone linked to,) you will see that the definition for Driving Time is just ONE of the definitions listed under ON DUTY TIME. If you are NOT "on duty," the definition CANNOT apply. The definitions are for what is considered ON DUTY, and "include" driving time as "specifically" defined.... said definition REQUIRING that the CMV be "in operation."

I was reading the other day where teams were asking DOT this very question; about stopping at a rest area---if it interruped the co-driver's 8hr sleeper berth break( wife needed to pee ) the DOT stated the rules were not that Draconian and they understood that from time to time people do come out of the sleeper for potty breaks, etc. They also asked if, co-driver could log combination off-duty/ sleeper for a full 10hrs( while the truck was moving) and DOT said yes!

This is a BIG part of the problem. I have searched all over the FMCSA website and, unless I missed it, I have NOT found a separate set of rules/definitions/guidance for TEAM DRIVING! This whole industry, and indeed the REGS, are geared toward SOLO drivers!

So.... when reading and CITING these regs, one SHOULD keep in mind that they are worded to apply to a SOLO driver. When HE/SHE is "off duty," the truck CANNOT be moving or "in operation."

If it were NOT for that ONE "guidance" question about the duty status of a codriver in the passenger seat while the truck is IN OPERATION (moving,) ALL other regs/definitions WOULD INDICATE that the codriver (who is OFF DUTY and CANNOT be required to do any work) is free to leave the vehicle/premises and therefore can log OFF DUTY for ANY part of his 10 hour break that he desires! As long as he/she logs a full 10 hours, there is NO penalty for "interrupting" his 8 hour sleeper berth time.

So... as long as there EXISTS these totally dichotomous directions/guidance from the FMCSA, there will remain questions as to logging for TEAM drivers! The regs for SOLO drivers, however, seem pretty clear.

Now.... AS to the original question of this thread.... If the "dually" doesn't have a SLEEPER, then HOW the heck did we get so sidetracked??? If you HAVE NO sleeper, your OFF DUTY time MUST be logged on line 1, and the vehicle CANNOT be "in operation."

Okay.... let the "flaming" begin!

[RebelDarlin]

Now.... AS to the original question of this thread.... If the "dually" doesn't have a SLEEPER, then HOW the heck did we get so sidetracked??? If you HAVE NO sleeper, your OFF DUTY time MUST be logged on line 1, and the vehicle CANNOT be "in operation."

Okay.... let the "flaming" begin!

BINGO!!!!

There is nothing in any of the Regs that I can find that would even come close to covering driving Team in a vehicle without a sleeper. So is it even legal to drive this way?

But this is a very informative and interesting thread. 8)

Rebel

[headborg]

yes, I was trainer in a single bunk truck--clearly we didn't sleep in the same bunk at the same time---yes, In the OP question--he was wondering where his co-driver had to log his time while riding ON the Passanger side of the bench seat in the pickup truck---several "gray" areas here---but I don't have a 2008 FMCSA handbook to see how they closed up those loop holes--- people who pull RV campers with duelly pickup F-350's etc-- used to do a lot of different things.

@Hobo-- as a former trainer---all time as a "trainer" riding in the jump seat--has always been required to be logged as "on duty, not driving"--in the old days---trainers always trained "from the sleeper" and would always need to jump back in the sleeper when going thru scale houses--for this very reason....getting caught in the passanger seat while logging "sleeper" or even "off duty" can't apply to someone who's suppose to always be instructing while the trainee is driving. Hopefully, soon all trainers will need an endorcement on their CDL which will define them as such---so there will be no Lying to enforcement officer in the future and claiming you're just a Team co-driver.

I just asked Officer Ed of the CHP at the Castaic, Ca inspection station friday morning about this very question while getting my CVSA stickers--right before a Warner Team pulled up---- with the wife riding in the passenger seat----- the key is the defination of "on-duty" and When/if
the co-driver has started a work shift or not.
The guidance is only as good as the details of the question- take the questions futher down refering to sending qualcom messages to a driver on a break--does it interupt drivers rest period--the first answer is--NO,
but then futher down another question asks if ---repeated qual-com messages would count as intrupting sleep break--then the answer is Yes--
You've heard "the devil's in the details".
Officer Ed also added--- that forcing a co-driver who's also a (wife/husband) to confine themselves in the sleeper for 10hrs at a time would quickly lead to --law suits about "depriving drivers of companionship of their spouse" issues.