Team Logging Questions

[headborg]

or another driver who successfully argued the passenger seat was part of the Sleeper under 393.76(b)(2)?
.....A sleeper berth installed on or after January 1, 1953 must be located IN THE CAB or immediately adjacent to the cab....


This one I don't think applies. The LOCATION of the sleeper berth is CLEARLY stated as being "in" the cab, but with access to the PASSENGER COMPARTMENT. That alone says the passenger seat is NOT part of the sleeper. I wouldn't want to get caught in the passenger seat while my log said I was in the SLEEPER. On the OTHER hand, as long as you were logging an entire 10 hour break "off duty," I don't see why you couldn't be Off Duty in the passenger seat. You may have to log line 1, however.

@hobo;

see this is the point the sleeper defination allows for a sleeper to be located IN a cab. There is no PASSENGER COMPARTMENT in the regs---only a DRIVERS COMPARTMEMT---consisting of a seat and the controls to operate the CMV. This also isn't any regs restricting a seat being placed IN A SLEEPER, and there's no Legal point of demarcation between the driver's compartment(CAB) and sleeper--when the sleeper is IN said cab.
Older trucks with an actual sleeper BOX is different--these new intergrated sleepers legally are in the Cab--therefore anything in the cab(except the driver's seat & controls) can be claimed as being in the sleeper.
also the wording....." Adjacent to" does not denote BEHIND---a person could take out a set of cabinets and place a mattress pad/bunk ---in place of the passanger seat running down the passanger side of the truck---then,
the co-driver would be setting on the bed!( there are of course seat belts required on the bunk to be used when the CMV is in motion.

[golfhobo]

Headborg wrote:

@Hobo-- as a former trainer---all time as a "trainer" riding in the jump seat--has always been required to be logged as "on duty, not driving

Yeah, I'm aware of that, but here's why I said otherwise. The guidance says:

Question 8: If a "driver trainer" occasionally drives a CMV, thereby becoming a "driver" (regardless of whether he/she is paid for driving), must the driver record all nondriving (training) time as on- duty (not driving)?

Guidance: Yes.

I don't know exactly WHY they chose to word this question this way, but the fact they DID, wouild "INDICATE" a possible contrary situation. Read it without the fact that he occaisionally becomes a "driver." i.e: it is NOT a "team training" situation. The HOS rules are designed to eliminate the possibility that someone would get behind the wheel of a CMV without having the required "restorative rest" that all the regs are designed to provide. As long as the trainer is NOT going to be in that position, THIS guidance question would indicate that he might NOT have to log the time on line 4 (which would limit the hours he could actually DRIVE.)

Unfortunately, the direct question was never asked!!

Anyway, I expected to be challenged on that one, because I MAY be reading too much into it. Been accused of THAT before!

But, WHY would they SPECIFY that he might become a "driver," unless it was relevant to the question of logging "duty time?"

[golfhobo]

or another driver who successfully argued the passenger seat was part of the Sleeper under 393.76(b)(2)?

.....A sleeper berth installed on or after January 1, 1953 must be located IN THE CAB or immediately adjacent to the cab....


This one I don't think applies. The LOCATION of the sleeper berth is CLEARLY stated as being "in" the cab, or adjacent TO it, but with access to the DRIVER COMPARTMENT. That alone says the passenger seat is NOT part of the sleeper. I wouldn't want to get caught in the passenger seat while my log said I was in the SLEEPER. On the OTHER hand, as long as you were logging an entire 10 hour break "off duty," I don't see why you couldn't be Off Duty in the passenger seat. You may have to log line 1, however.

@hobo;

see this is the point the sleeper defination allows for a sleeper to be located IN a cab. There is no PASSENGER COMPARTMENT in the regs---only a DRIVERS COMPARTMEMT---consisting of a seat and the controls to operate the CMV.

Please note my edits in red. However, I interpret the Driver's Compartment to include the whole front area. The Driver must have access to the fuses (which in my rig are on the passenger side dash,) AND the right side mirrors.

This also isn't any regs restricting a seat being placed IN A SLEEPER, and there's no Legal point of demarcation between the driver's compartment(CAB) and sleeper--when the sleeper is IN said cab.

From the reg defining sleeper berths: (c) Exit from the berth. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (c)(2) of this section, there must be a direct and ready means of exit from a sleeper berth into the driver's seat or compartment. If the sleeper berth was installed on or after January 1, 1963, the exit must be a doorway or opening at least 18 inches high and 36 inches wide.

If the driver's "compartment" consisted ONLY of his seat, this would not have been worded this way. Also, it seems they went to great pains to describe the "opening" that is "obviously" between the sleeper berth and the compartment.

Futhermore, in the same regulation, the dimensions of the berth are laid out, and the "length" is obviously from sidewall to sidewall. IF this included the passenger seat, it would extend across the driver's seat. Sorry, I can't buy it. :wink:

Older trucks with an actual sleeper BOX is different--these new intergrated sleepers legally are in the Cab--therefore anything in the cab(except the driver's seat & controls) can be claimed as being in the sleeper.

I don't agree.

also the wording....." Adjacent to" does not denote BEHIND---

It would certainly be less than functional if it were AHEAD OF... :wink:

a person could take out a set of cabinets and place a mattress pad/bunk ---in place of the passanger seat running down the passanger side of the truck---then,
the co-driver would be setting on the bed!( there are of course seat belts required on the bunk to be used when the CMV is in motion.

Sorry, that runs afoul of the required measurements.

[VitoCorleone99]

If you are "relieved of work, or readiness for work," i.e. you are on a required off duty break, there is NO REG that says you can't spend part of that time on the truck... and NOT necessarily in the sleeper.

How do you reconcile this with the definition of "on duty" time?

On duty time shall include:...

(4) All time, other than driving time, in or upon any commercial motor vehicle except time spent resting in a sleeper berth;

[golfhobo]

If you are "relieved of work, or readiness for work," i.e. you are on a required off duty break, there is NO REG that says you can't spend part of that time on the truck... and NOT necessarily in the sleeper.

How do you reconcile this with the definition of "on duty" time?

On duty time shall include:...

(4) All time, other than driving time, in or upon any commercial motor vehicle except time spent resting in a sleeper berth;

Good question, Vito.... let me SEE if I can explain.

First, you must consider the directive to draw a line between change of duty when one is OFF DUTY. So, if one is OFF duty, one cannont fall under the guidance for "What constitutes On duty time."

I dont want to quote the whole guidance thing, and delineate the paragraphs as they fall UNDER the one before it.... but....

There is a reg that tells you how to log OFF Duty time. THEN, there is a reg/guidance concerning ON DUTY time. It THEN says, ON DUTY time shall include.... and lists the things that are considered On Duty. ONE of those is "driving time." (under the controls) but ONLY if you are ON DUTY!

But, IF you are OFF DUTY, then NONE of the definitions for what constitutes ON duty really apply! If you have COME ON DUTY, then yes.... ANY time spent ON or ABOUT the CMV is considered "on duty not driving" UNLESS you are at the controls, in which case it is DRIVING TIME (by definition.)

But, the most compelling evidence for my statement is this:

Question 22: A motor carrier relieves a driver from duty. What is a suitable facility for resting?

Guidance: The only resting facility which the FHWA regulates is the sleeper berth. The sleeper berth requirements can be found in §393.76.

This means that WHEN a driver is relieved of duty (by his carrier which they MUST when he is required to log 10 hours OFF DUTY,) he is FREE to "rest" anywhere he chooses! The ONLY "facility" that is REGULATED by the FEDS, is the sleeper berth. This means, they have regulations concerning the size, location, and LENGTH of time spent IN the sleeper, IF you are wanting to LOG sleeper berth time! Otherwise, they DO NOT regulate the "resting facilities" of a driver who is OFF DUTY. This is why you can spend all 10 hours in the truckstop, or in a brothel, or wherever.... as long as you are logging line 1 for 10 hours straight!

Once you are OFF DUTY, the feds do NOT regulate WHERE you spend that 10 hours. Therefore, if you chose to spend some or all of it ON the truck, or IN the sleeper, Or sitting in the passenger seat, or even in the DRIVER's seat, you are free to do so, as they do not "regulate" your resting facility UNLESS you are logging it as a sleeper berth!

IF you are not ON DUTY, then ON DUTY time cannot include "driving time" as defined by being behind the controls, because you are NOT ON DUTY.

In summation, (if I haven't beaten this dead horse to death yet,) if you are NOT "on duty," then the definitions of driving time don't apply, the FWHA does NOT regulate what is considered a "resting area" UNLESS you choose to log it as sleeper berth, and you are free to leave the truck and premises if you wish, but you cannot be BARRED from "resting" in ANY area of the truck (since it is not regulated.)

A CMV, whose driver is OFF DUTY, cannot be considered "in operation." Therefore, if a driver is OFF DUTY, and cannot be considered ON DUTY, NO DEFINITIONS of ON DUTY time can apply, and NO "resting areas" other than the sleeper can be "regulated."

The ONLY mention of logging line 3 "driving time" is for a driver who is "ON DUTY" and is behind the controls of the truck!" As long as he is NOT at the controls, he MUST log line 4, because he is STILL "on duty" if he is ON THE TRUCK.

However, if he is OFF DUTY, he cannot log line 3 or 4, yet his resting place is NOT regulated. He is not, and cannot be, barred from sitting in any seat or NO seat of the truck that is NOT IN OPERATION.

I could have done better if I tried. I just didn't feel like trying that hard! It's a no brainer. If you are OFF DUTY, then the definitions of ON DUTY (including the one for Driving Time) do not, and cannot apply!

If I failed to make my point, I apologize and will start over and be more "disciplined." But, hey..... I'm OFF DUTY!! :wink:

[kc0iv]

IF you are not ON DUTY, then ON DUTY time cannot include "driving time" as defined by being behind the controls, because you are NOT ON DUTY.

Following your logic Hobo then there is no reason to have sleeper berth log time. Simple log everything OFF DUTY except when you are behind the wheel. Same thing goes for team operations.

kc0iv

[golfhobo]

IF you are not ON DUTY, then ON DUTY time cannot include "driving time" as defined by being behind the controls, because you are NOT ON DUTY.

Following your logic Hobo then there is no reason to have sleeper berth log time. Simple log everything OFF DUTY except when you are behind the wheel. Same thing goes for team operations.

kc0iv

Well, K.C. the main reason for having S/B time, is so that you can split log. Going back to the OLD days, this would allow you to take periods of not less than 2 hours OFF THE CLOCK. With the current requirement, you have to log 8 straight in there, but at least you CAN get moving 2 hours sooner, and that time is OFF the clock. If you want to log that 8 hour break on line 1, go ahead. But, you KNOW that would be on the clock, and you'll have a short trip! :wink:

But, if a SOLO is shutting down for the night, he CAN log all 10 straight on line 1 if he wants. And if he DOES, then he is OFF DUTY. So being in the truck does not constitute "all time in or upon a CMV" as defined in (4) under ON DUTY TIME.

It's very simple if you go to the definitions reg, 395.2... First it defines ON DUTY TIME (and by definition OFF DUTY as being any time before or after your duty cycle, or any time that you have been relieved of work.)

I suppose that if you don't have that little card that says you can log OFF DUTY for short periods during the day for meals, etc.. then you would still be ON duty.... and (4) would apply and you would HAVE to be in the sleeper if on the truck.... or on line 4.

But, if you HAVE that card.... see quidance question 2. What conditions must be met. There are 4 conditions. Not ONE of them says you have to be or get OFF the truck. In fact, #4 says you must be at liberty to pursue activities of YOUR choosing. If you choose to sit in the seat and listen to music, you are still "resting" as far as they care.

Furthermore, consider the driver who eats his meals out of a cooler. He stops in a rest area for a 2 hour break. It is -10 degrees outside. You say he HAS to get off the truck and go eat his meal at the picnic table and freeze to death? No, as long as he is NOT responsible for the cargo or truck, and COULD leave the premises if he wanted to, I don't see where he cannot CHOOSE to eat in the truck and NOT be "resting" in the sleeper.

Going back to guidance question 22. When ON this 2 hour break (or off duty for the day,) what is a suitable place for resting?

The answer basically says, we ONLY regulate (time in and dimensions of, etc.) the SLEEPER BERTH. Other than that... we do not regulate, nor specify, nor CARE where you take your off duty activities.

Under the definition of ON DUTY TIME, it gives many examples of what are included. But, FIRST you have to NOT BE RELIEVED OF WORK. After they covered every conceivable thing you might be doing, terminal in readiness, loading, repairing, etc., they included the catchall phrase (4) that says basically that UNLESS YOU ARE RELIEVED OF WORK, ALL other time spent on the truck is either driving, sleeper or line 4.

I can see how OTHERS' interpretation might be arrived at. I just don't believe that was the intention of the regs/definitions, and taking all other guidance that I mentioned into consideration, I just don't see that their intention was to BAR you from your truck when off duty.

Even the definition of driving time says the vehicle is "in operation." Why would they make the distinction if none exists? So On Duty time includes all Driving time "as defined." However, if you are relieved of work, the vehicle is not "in operation" therefore sitting behind the controls does not constitute Driving time anymore than sitting in the passenger seat would constitute On duty not driving time.

I could be wrong.... but that's the way I see it. :wink:

And that's the way my lawyer will argue it IF I ever get a ticket for falsifying my logbook (or whatever it would be.)

[VitoCorleone99]

That's a whole lot of words just to say we have differing understandings of the meaning of the word "all."

[golfhobo]

That's a whole lot of words just to say we have differing understandings of the meaning of the word "all."

Point taken, but I didn't think you'd accept THIS simple answer.....

On Duty Time shall include.......

ALL TIME THAT IS NOT CONSIDERED OFF DUTY TIME.

:wink:

At the risk of boring you, let me throw out 2 more examples:

Even an UNLADEN CMV is still a CMV by definiton, right? However, if you are RELIEVED of work, you can even DRIVE it to the Walmart or wherever, and log it as OFF DUTY. Yet you are ON a CMV aren't you?

Also, you are a company driver and you take your truck home for a 34 hour reset. You are ROD. If you stand on the catwalk, or sit in the seat, for your friend to take your picture.... are you required to log this on line 4? (Or line 3 if you are under the controls?)

BOTH of those fit under the definition of "ALL" that I believe we share. But, NEITHER fits under the definition of On Duty Time.

[Cat6869]

yes, I was trainer in a single bunk truck--clearly we didn't sleep in the same bunk at the same time---yes, In the OP question--he was wondering where his co-driver had to log his time while riding ON the Passanger side of the bench seat in the pickup truck---several "gray" areas here---but I don't have a 2008 FMCSA handbook to see how they closed up those loop holes--- people who pull RV campers with duelly pickup F-350's etc-- used to do a lot of different things.

@Hobo-- as a former trainer---all time as a "trainer" riding in the jump seat--has always been required to be logged as "on duty, not driving"--in the old days---trainers always trained "from the sleeper" and would always need to jump back in the sleeper when going thru scale houses--for this very reason....getting caught in the passanger seat while logging "sleeper" or even "off duty" can't apply to someone who's suppose to always be instructing while the trainee is driving. Hopefully, soon all trainers will need an endorcement on their CDL which will define them as such---so there will be no Lying to enforcement officer in the future and claiming you're just a Team co-driver.

I just asked Officer Ed of the CHP at the Castaic, Ca inspection station friday morning about this very question while getting my CVSA stickers--right before a Warner Team pulled up---- with the wife riding in the passenger seat----- the key is the defination of "on-duty" and When/if
the co-driver has started a work shift or not.
The guidance is only as good as the details of the question- take the questions futher down refering to sending qualcom messages to a driver on a break--does it interupt drivers rest period--the first answer is--NO,
but then futher down another question asks if ---repeated qual-com messages would count as intrupting sleep break--then the answer is Yes--
You've heard "the devil's in the details".
Officer Ed also added--- that forcing a co-driver who's also a (wife/husband) to confine themselves in the sleeper for 10hrs at a time would quickly lead to --law suits about "depriving drivers of companionship of their spouse" issues.

There is NOTHING in the regulations that allow "companionship" to be part of the regulations. I do know if you are caught in the front seat (passenger seat) you better be logging on-duty not driving. If you get that lucky officer that believes different, count yourself as "lucky" because the other officer "could" write you up for a violaiton and give you a fine. I don't care if you are training you are on-duty. You are not in the sleeper, you are not off duty & and you are not driving. Now if you are a a passenger you should not even be driving the truck so it should not be an issue .