Company says accident was preventable/Need advice please

[Sabine]

ok guys, maybe I jumped the gun. I guess I have a problem with accidents declared preventable that involve me as a driver, legally driving, not running lights, not speeding.

And then some moron runs a light and hits me. In theory you should be prepared to stop, but if the legal speed is 65 (as it is on US 67 in MO, and there are several lights), I know it is not possible to stop for someone who is running the light. I don't do 65 thru these intersection, but I am not creeping at 35 either.

While you should always prepare yourself for the unexpected, some things truly can't be avoided. You can try, but no more than that.

[kreeper01]

Looks like this pretty much sums it up.

Ive sit in with review boards (they are boring).

they best and easy way to define an accident is as follows:

Preventable Accident: You were moving in some fashion and hit something or something hit you.


Non-Preventable Accident: You were motionless and something hit you..

[Useless]

I think that many excellent points have been made here.

Reading the different perspectives offered here has caused me to go back and revisit my perspectives on this matter.

The issue of "prevetable vs. nonpreventable" are rather ambiguous, and it is easy for a safety officer or a review board to play "Monday Morning Quarterback" in making determinations.

There is a considerable degree of irony in that trying to apply "cut and dried" methods of determining preventability ro a matter that is so clearly ambiguous does seem to unfairly weigh upon the big truck driver.

What I also find ironic is the fact that labeling an incident as "preventable" would not only weigh aganst the driver, but also reflect negatively upon the company as a whole.

If a professional driver is going to be deemed "guilty untill proven innocent", then the driver should also be entitled to some type of representative to serve as his/her advocate.

As the father of a 12 yr. old child, my wife and me are currently dealing with issues such as "Fault" vs. "Accountability".

A classic example occured just a few weeks ago when my daughter's cell phone was ruined after she slipped and fell into a mud puddle after a thunderstorm had pounded us.

Was the destruction of her cell phone her fault?? Not really, although there WERE steps she could have taken to avoid it. There was also the matter of teaching her that although the incident may not have been her fault, the fact remained that her cell phone was ruined, and that it would cost money to replace.

In any event, threads such as these, which cause us to stop and thing, and look at things from different points of view can help all of us to become better drivers, and better at other things that we do as well.

That speaks well for everyone who posted here.

[pacificjohn]

In any event, threads such as these, which cause us to stop and thing, and look at things from different points of view can help all of us to become better drivers, and better at other things that we do as well.

That speaks well for everyone who posted here.

HERE HERE!!! And yes...that was in all capitals for a reason! [/quote]

[cmegobye]

If the Titanic sank today, with the present definition of a P vs NP accident, a truck driver somewhere would at 'fault'.

[papafish]

heres a new twist...with a question.i had a rollover,and was charged with too fast for conditions.2 points and minimun fine.the facts are that i did rollover,but i was going less than 2 mph in sunny, dry ,clear condition.thank goodness for witnesses...the load,(steel racks in a reefer trailer) shifted on a curve at an exit ramp in rush hour traffic.the truck went over in slo motion.the racks actually burst thru the side of the trailer.they were not secured in any way,the bol was wrong in stating the actual weight of the load,and they were stacked higher than they should have been.why did i not check the load?we were not allowed to open the trailers for any reason...all are pre loaded and sealed...you open a door you get fired.....period..i was less than 300 yards from where i picked up the trailer and was on my way to axle out the load...it was not over gross...but the bill was still about 26,000lbs. short....i was injured on my left arm,workers comp. and all that good stuff........we were in the process of a bidding war to buy us out at the time......by the time i recovered,the court date had passed and the fine was lowered but not thrown out in spite of the fact that a company investigation found out all of the above problems had occured with the load thus causing me to roll over......i was cleared by my company,but the judge said it was preventable<though i dont know how).....i returned to work.....soon after,a large company i wont name for i might start a fight but we all know them,got the deal........we were all allowed to fill out apps.and bid for our jobs....so i did as i had been there 8 years......well,this new company refused my app. based on the fact that i had a rollover.period.....i have another job now...but my question is this.....with nearly 11 years driving with not so much as an overweight ticket,now i have this rollover with a fine on me,what will it take to get my self hired by a company that i might like better???how long does it take???

[greg3564]

heres a new twist...with a question.i had a rollover,and was charged with too fast for conditions.2 points and minimun fine.the facts are that i did rollover,but i was going less than 2 mph in sunny, dry ,clear condition.thank goodness for witnesses...the load,(steel racks in a reefer trailer) shifted on a curve at an exit ramp in rush hour traffic.the truck went over in slo motion.the racks actually burst thru the side of the trailer.they were not secured in any way,the bol was wrong in stating the actual weight of the load,and they were stacked higher than they should have been.why did i not check the load?we were not allowed to open the trailers for any reason...all are pre loaded and sealed...you open a door you get fired.....period..i was less than 300 yards from where i picked up the trailer and was on my way to axle out the load...it was not over gross...but the bill was still about 26,000lbs. short....i was injured on my left arm,workers comp. and all that good stuff........we were in the process of a bidding war to buy us out at the time......by the time i recovered,the court date had passed and the fine was lowered but not thrown out in spite of the fact that a company investigation found out all of the above problems had occured with the load thus causing me to roll over......i was cleared by my company,but the judge said it was preventable<though i dont know how).....i returned to work.....soon after,a large company i wont name for i might start a fight but we all know them,got the deal........we were all allowed to fill out apps.and bid for our jobs....so i did as i had been there 8 years......well,this new company refused my app. based on the fact that i had a rollover.period.....i have another job now...but my question is this.....with nearly 11 years driving with not so much as an overweight ticket,now i have this rollover with a fine on me,what will it take to get my self hired by a company that i might like better???how long does it take???

You need an attorney. One that specializes in vehicle code.

[Raafi]

i am a pretty new driver, and after reading this thread, it boils down to you drive as safe as you can, but when your time is up, you are just plain screwed

it makes no sense that an innocent person has to hire a lawyer based upon erroneous information that a company or review board puts on his record

am i justifying bad driving? no

i am just saying that it seems that innocent people get the shaft and it would just be better to try to make money doing something else.

i like driving, my father and uncles were drivers, i was taught as a youngster how to drive, i waited until i was 48yrs old to start and am enjoying myself every day

but i do dread the day that something happens, and someone gets hurt, or high value damage, i cant see myself pursuing going to court when the deck is stacked so high against me.

there are a few depressing things you learn as a truck driver, this thread has to be up there

[mdgardner963]

I am not really looking to get into particulars about the accident, but I will say that the other motorist that struck the company truck that I was driving at the time was cited for failure to yeild. Anyone with some actual, intelligent
first-hand knowledge of such recourse a driver might have in such a circumstance as this please chime in. Thank you in advance.

We as pros are responsable for everyone and correcting there dum mistakes by not hitting them even when they hit us..

Now more over to your question if it is not your fault and you had no way of correrting the 4 wheelers mistake or could have taken evasive action to stop the accident. Then there is recourse 1 driver review board is 1st step, second step is if you think the driver review board is not going to see it you way.. Is to hire an atty and sue the company (sometimes just the threat from an atty will make them change it.) take your chances in court. At the very least i would get an attys comments on it and see what options you have..

[Fredog]

Looks like this pretty much sums it up.

Ive sit in with review boards (they are boring).

they best and easy way to define an accident is as follows:

Preventable Accident: You were moving in some fashion and hit something or something hit you.


Non-Preventable Accident: You were motionless and something hit you..

still preventable, you should have been sitting somewhere else

[mdgardner963]

Looks like this pretty much sums it up.

Ive sit in with review boards (they are boring).

they best and easy way to define an accident is as follows:

Preventable Accident: You were moving in some fashion and hit something or something hit you.


Non-Preventable Accident: You were motionless and something hit you..

still preventable, you should have been sitting somewhere else

Since i do not have all the facts means nothing.. If your not at fault then your not.

[Fredog]

Looks like this pretty much sums it up.

Ive sit in with review boards (they are boring).

they best and easy way to define an accident is as follows:

Preventable Accident: You were moving in some fashion and hit something or something hit you.


Non-Preventable Accident: You were motionless and something hit you..

still preventable, you should have been sitting somewhere else

Since i do not have all the facts means nothing.. If your not at fault then your not.

wonder who was at fault here?

[golfhobo]

Are we to have the ability to read other drivers minds? ( I'm talking about someone pulling out in front of you with NO room to stop.)

Not mind reading, but reading the road. One of the major parts of defensive driving is paying attention to other traffic. If you see a vehicle approaching a stop you have to assume they aren't going to stop. Make eye contact, if they don't look your way expect them to pull out and make the necessary adjustments. That is what a professional does anyways, a steering wheel holder plays with the radio and cell phone with total disregard to others, then when involved in an accident, can't understand how it was preventable and accepts no personal responsibility for their inattention.

Ask one of many drivers that have a million plus accident free miles, it isn't just luck. And NO, I am not one of them, but have learned from my mistakes. One reason they do these accident reviews whether an accident is preventable or not is to teach drivers what they could have done to prevent it and learn from it.

I know this post is old, and I don't always agree with PTD.... but this time I DO! A MAJOR part of the professional driver's job IS to "anticipate" the stupidity of other drivers!

We must ALWAYS be "on guard" for the actions of the stupid and irresponsible! There is NO time, while driving a truck, that it is safe to talk on the phone, diddle with your GPS, or read some papers!!

Being "at fault" in an accident makes NO difference! It is "preventable" because YOU should be doing your job! And your JOB requires that you understand the implications of letting your 80k lb missile hit another vehicle or pedestrian!

There IS a "double standard" and WE are held to it! That's why we are considered "professional drivers!" We MAY not be able to "prevent" EVERY accident..... but those we don't, MAY be fatal for someone else OR OURSELVES!

Personally, I am very GOOD at "reading the minds" of other drivers! And I make it my FIRST PRIORITY to do so all day, every day!! I ALWAYS know if I have an "out" and where it is, and I ALWAYS expect the 4wheelers (and most truckers) to do the most stupid thing they can do!

To the original poster..... there is a thread here somewhere with a link to USIS/DAC. You need to call them and find out how to have YOUR "rebuttal" added to the file so any future company will see YOUR side of the story. But, it better be GOOD, FACTUAL, and PERSUASIVE! Whining won't count!

Driving SAFELY is an ART, or at least a SKILL!! One should be practicing this art/skill EVERY mile that they cover! There is NO time to slack off! You are being paid to DRIVE A TRUCK!! The responsibilities and requirements of this job are STRINGENT to say the least! If you are not SMARTER than the average 4wheeler, nor more SKILLED than a "steeringwheelholder," you need to get OUT OF THIS BUSINESS!

I have a "rule." If you EVER say, "wow! where did HE come from?" more than ONCE a day.... you are NOT paying attention, you are NOT doing your job, and you are DANGEROUS!

I feel for those who have been "unjustly" screwed by company or LEO's, but I have NO pity for those who don't understand the GRAVITY of the situation, and the RESPONSIBILITY of the job! DO IT RIGHT.... or don't EVEN think you can DO it!!

I have no idea what kind of driver the O.P. is..... and I am not passing judgement! I am stating my opinions for ALL who desire to be a trucker! And NO, I don't have a million accident free miles YET.... but I INTEND to! It will be a bit harder for ME, because I don't get in the granny lane and follow the slower trucks! I am "proactive." I drive fast.... but I drive SMART! I am thinking WAY ahead of every mile I drive! I KNOW the capabilities/restrictions of my TRUCK, and I "know" what everyone else is going to do! And I leave ROOM for the possibility that I could be WRONG!

For those of you who don't HAVE this ability to think ahead, or to "read the minds" of others in traffic, I suggest you get in the granny lane AND spend ALL your time checking mirrors and the road in front of you! Maybe, if you're lucky, you will survive the trip! But, really.... I think you should find another career!

Driving a TRUCK is not something that just "anybody" can, or SHOULD, do! My last two "co-drivers" are clear examples of that! I'm sure there is no SHAME in coming to that realization. But, you MUST be honest with yourself and others when making that self-appraisal! LIVES can depend on it!! Maybe, even YOURS!

Nearly EVERY accident is "preventable" if you are driving a truck!! And hitting ANYTHING that is stationary, while trying to back in, or park, etc., is INEXCUSABLE! It MIGHT be "understandable" when you are six months NEW..... but it will COST you bigtime!

There is LITTLE, if ANY, room for mistakes in this business! And THAT is not just MY opinon.... that is a FACT!

[wildkat]

Hobo; spoken like the true professional you obviously are! WAY to GO! My thoughts exactly!

edited: damn it's hard to type with my wrist splints on LOL

[golfhobo]

Hobo; spoken like the true professional you obviously are! WAY to GO! My thoughts exactly!

edited: damn it's hard to type with my wrist splints on LOL

Thanks, WildKat! Those words are GOLD from a "senior" driver like YOU! I KNOW I'm right..... but, it is nice to know that you appreciate my "professionalism."

I didn't get into this job to see how fast I could go while eating a sandwich! And I didn't get into this job because I had no ofther choice. I'm in this job because I KNOW I can be GOOD at it, and that means being "professional" at ALL times! If I was a street sweeper, I'd be the BEST at it! I believe strongly in being "professional" at any job, and THIS job REQUIRES it!

LIVES are at stake in this job, as you well know! We are not ringing up sales at a Walmart! Too many drivers think that if they can find 5th gear before they stall out, they are "driving a truck!" And with THAT mentality, they won't even, or EVER, realize that they are NO GOOD AT IT! No shame... no foul.... but they need to get OUT of it!

Truck driving is not, or SHOULDN'T be, a "catchall" for those who can't find their niche in life! This is NOT "fast food" or a "retail job."

This should NOT be a "last choice" for those who CAN'T.... but rather a "first choice" for those who CAN! Our industry will get stronger ONLY when the "enlistment" requirements reach a level of that of the better jobs in the military! I have been in BOTH, and I know a COOK from a Demolition Expert!

Sorry to get on a rant (again,) but I am passionate about this! Trucking is NOT FOR WUSSES! (just HAD to say that!)

Now..... WHAT have you been doing to need wrist splints? I thought that was a MALE thing!

[mdgardner963]

Ok i agree with 99% of what you said. But like i said i dont have all the facts and if i did then i could make a proper judgement.

I never assume anything any more.

But i totaly agree we are paid to watch out for the poor critters who can't think for them selfs :x

[golfhobo]

Ok i agree with 99% of what you said. But like i said i dont have all the facts and if i did then i could make a proper judgement.

I never assume anything any more.

But i totaly agree we are paid to watch out for the poor critters who can't think for them selfs :x

Yeah, but not ENOUGH!!!

I wasn't aiming anything at YOU MadDog. IIRC, you told the O.P. to get a lawyer or at least rebut the statements on DAC. I agree wholeheartedly with THAT! Personally, I pay monthly for a legal assistance group to do just THAT if I ever need them. I would NEVER just accept whatever the company wants to put on my DAC!

[mdgardner963]

Ok i agree with 99% of what you said. But like i said i dont have all the facts and if i did then i could make a proper judgement.

I never assume anything any more.

But i totaly agree we are paid to watch out for the poor critters who can't think for them selfs :x

Yeah, but not ENOUGH!!!

I wasn't aiming anything at YOU MadDog. IIRC, you told the O.P. to get a lawyer or at least rebut the statements on DAC. I agree wholeheartedly with THAT! Personally, I pay monthly for a legal assistance group to do just THAT if I ever need them. I would NEVER just accept whatever the company wants to put on my DAC!

I never took it personal at all.. And yes I have seen some shady companies I hear ya.. We are bound to a higher standard.. Those who think they can get away with driving irresponsible are just ignorant

[ChikinTrucka]

[img]http://media.timesleader.com/images/300*225/81+Haz+Crash+1.jpg[/img]
http://www.timesleader.com/news/Mult..._fatality.html
Anyone get caught in this snow squall last week? I wonder who is at fault? Everyone says "It was a sudden squall, out of nowhere, and all of a sudden, I couldn't see." Like all the accidents I hear about in the fog. Part of the job is knowing when to slow down because of what's anticipated. For example; I take my sunglasses off BEFORE entering a tunnel, I clean my windshield BEFORE turning into the setting sun, I slow down BEFORE entering fog, and I turn on my wipers BEFORE entering sever rainstorm.
The part I don't like is that no matter how careful you are, and well intentioned, there will always be the unforeseen incident.
SO, in order to avoid any "preventable" accident, we all need to drive at 5 MPH. (Of course then someone would hit me from behind!)
The truth is, there is no way to get a fair shake. If they want to screw you over, they will.
Recently a driver slammed on his brakes in front of a semi because the truck (allegedly) cut him off. The truck hit the car. The driver of the car was arrested for "reckless endangerment". (chalk one up for fair law enforcement) But I suppose it would still be called "preventable" by the company.
Be safe!

[golfhobo]

[img]http://media.timesleader.com/images/300*225/81+Haz+Crash+1.jpg[/img]
http://www.timesleader.com/news/Mult..._fatality.html


Anyone get caught in this snow squall last week? I wonder who is at fault? Everyone says "It was a sudden squall, out of nowhere, and all of a sudden, I couldn't see." Like all the accidents I hear about in the fog.

Part of the job is knowing when to slow down because of what's anticipated. For example; I take my sunglasses off BEFORE entering a tunnel, I clean my windshield BEFORE turning into the setting sun, I slow down BEFORE entering fog, and I turn on my wipers BEFORE entering sever rainstorm.

The part I don't like is that no matter how careful you are, and well intentioned, there will always be the unforeseen incident.

Be safe!

Well.... at least from the picture, I'd say that the trucker who took the ditch, and is still upright and intact, was NOT at fault!

I don't believe in "all of a sudden!" NOTHING happens without some kind of warning. Checking the weather forecast makes snow squalls EXPECTED!

KNOWING something about the TIME, location, elevation, surrounding terrain, etc., allows one to EXPECT fog!

It is not enough JUST to "anticipate" weather problems, or others....it is professional to RECOGNIZE the factors I mentioned above and to EXPECT them.

Fog occurrs in valleys surrounded by mountains (or hills) at certain times of the day/night and with certain humidity levels. It is often HIGHLY predictable based on the presence of bodies of water nearby!

Western and northern slopes of mountains or grades are more likely to be COLDER and therefore icy or snowy when the opposite are clear!

Deer and other animals MIGRATE during perrenial times.... and they don't recognize highways!

Winds are usually higher at night due to the lack of the sun's warming of the air which causes it to RISE instead of move laterally.

Drivers are more distracted and frantic during rush hours, including lunchtime.

More traffic leaves and enters the RIGHT lane of traffic than ANY OTHER.

More drivers are on cellphones in the hour just before/during morning and evening rush hours.

The skill, attentiveness, and confidence level of ANY driver.... and especially a truck driver.... can be judged by the frequency of the illumination of his brake lights.

There are a MILLION "clues" out there if we are watching.

I applaud YOUR efforts, ChickinTrucka! The only comment I would make is that a good time to TAKE a BREAK is during the 30 minutes of the setting or rising sun! We need breaks anyways..... why not take them at a time when our ability to see "down the road" is at its lowest point?

But, if you ARE going to be on the road at these times..... I would add THIS:

If the sun is setting OR rising BEHIND you, it is EASY for you/us to see ahead, right? So.... why bother with headlights? Because the traffic coming towards us is looking INTO the sun, and can't see us as well WITHOUT them!

And, in the opposite case.... our headlights won't HELP us much will they? NO..... but they'll help us to see the truck BEHIIND US... and the one ahead of us to see US!!! Almost as bad as the sun in our eyes.... is the sun in our MIRRORS!!

And 4wheelers have the SAME problem!!!

I was driving at dusk a day or two ago, the sun was not even a factor, but the truck behind me was an "oxidized" blue color. I couldn't BELIEVE how well he blended into the grey asphalt of the road behind me! At times, he was nearly "invisible!" I'm SURE he could see ME very well, and had NO IDEA how poorly I could see HIM! Had I been on the phone when he tried to pass me, I may have moved DIRECTLY into his path while passing the car in front of me!

Yes.... Virginia.... MOST accidents ARE preventable!! And many MORE would be if EVERY driver on the road (especially truckers) would recognize THEIR part in doing so!

It is not enough (IMHO) to just tell each other to "be safe." It is imperative that we ALL "pay attention" to those things that will MAKE us "safe!" And we cannot slack off for even ONE moment! The stakes are just TOO high!