Limits to LEO Waking Up Sleeping Team Partner?!?

[golfhobo]

All your comments got me thinking about different situations and legal definitions.

One would be when does a driver's beginning of duty start? For instance, I arrive a customer property at 10pm and go to bed. At 6am, I am asked to move the truck to a dock, it takes me 5 minutes, and I return to the sleeper until the trailer is loaded/unloaded. At 9am the loading/unloading is finished and I leave the customer property. What time did I start work in my logbook, 6am or 9am? No, I don't want the answer every truckdriver and his mother would use(Which would be 11am because he drove 10 miles down the highway to the truckstop and waited several hours for dispatch to his next load :wink ; What time did I LEGALLY start my 14 hour clock?

6 am, when you operated a CMV.

So, I didn't get my 10 hour break! That means when a car rearends me at noon that day and kills everyone in it, I am criminally negligent and I go to jail!! :evil:

Second, when am I "DRIVING" and when am I "ON-DUTY(Not Driving)"? If I am asked to reposition several trailers for a customer on their property and it takes me more than 15 minutes, can I LEGALLY log this time as "ON-DUTY(Not Driving)"? Again, I don't want the answer every driver would give(eg. Drop and Hook this trailer for that one and all the other work never happened :wink: ). So, can I LEGALLY move my truck after my 11 hours of driving if I performing this duty on a customer's property? I know if the customer asked me to move my truck and trailer out of a dock but I could use their property for my break, you bet I would do it safely!

The time would be considered driving time. You were at the controls of a CMV.

So, I am moving my truck to the back of the customer's yard, their yard goat slams into my trailer and he dies, making me criminally negligent and I go to jail!! :evil:

Isn't the legal system wonderful? :sad:

This is a PRIME example of why EVERY driver, whether he LIKES the new rules or not, ought to learn how to "split log."

According to YOUR timetable given here, you slept for 8 hours before moving ANY vehicles or trailers. That "splits" your 10 hour break. After going to line 3 at 6 a.m. for say, 1 hour, to accomplish all tasks, you can return to your sleeper from 7 - 9 a.m. if you are not required to attend the unloading. Now, you've gotten your "second" half of the break, and your 14 hour clock will start over from the END of the "first" break (in this case the 8 hour one,) or 6 a.m. So, when you begin work again at 9 a.m., you have 11 hours left on your 14 in which to drive 10 more hours. At THAT point, you would again need an 8 hour sleeper berth break, but you might as well try to get all 10 at once, and restart the full clocks.

[Rev.Vassago]

According to YOUR timetable given here, you slept for 8 hours before moving ANY vehicles or trailers. That "splits" your 10 hour break. After going to line 3 at 6 a.m. for say, 1 hour, to accomplish all tasks, you can return to your sleeper from 7 - 9 a.m. if you are not required to attend the unloading. Now, you've gotten your "second" half of the break, and your 14 hour clock will start over from the END of the "first" break (in this case the 8 hour one,) or 6 a.m. So, when you begin work again at 9 a.m., you have 11 hours left on your 14 in which to drive 10 more hours. At THAT point, you would again need an 8 hour sleeper berth break, but you might as well try to get all 10 at once, and restart the full clocks.

Oops! Hold on there,hobo! He never stated how long he drove prior to going off duty at 10pm.

Let me point out something he stated in the second scenario:

Second, when am I "DRIVING" and when am I "ON-DUTY(Not Driving)"? If I am asked to reposition several trailers for a customer on their property and it takes me more than 15 minutes, can I LEGALLY log this time as "ON-DUTY(Not Driving)"? Again, I don't want the answer every driver would give(eg. Drop and Hook this trailer for that one and all the other work never happened ). So, can I LEGALLY move my truck after my 11 hours of driving if I performing this duty on a customer's property?

He states already drove 11 hours prior to going off duty. He cannot, under any circumstances, drive a CMV until he has 10 hours off. No splitting it. Period.

The real question he had was if he would have to consider time driving a CMV on private property as On Duty (driving) time, to which the answer is yes. It doesn't matter if you are a public road, or private property. All time spent at the controls of a CMV is driving time.

[danske]

This is a PRIME example of why EVERY driver, whether he LIKES the new rules or not, ought to learn how to "split log."

According to YOUR timetable given here, you slept for 8 hours before moving ANY vehicles or trailers. That "splits" your 10 hour break. After going to line 3 at 6 a.m. for say, 1 hour, to accomplish all tasks, you can return to your sleeper from 7 - 9 a.m.

Hobo,

I stated in my scenario that I was woke up at 6am to move my truck to the dock and that it took ONLY 5 minutes. After that, I returned to the sleeper.

My question does this start my 14 hour on-duty clock again? Yes, I return to the sleeper until 9am, so I do indeed complete my 10 hour break. If my 14 hour on-duty clock started at 6am then I am done driving that night at 8pm, not 11pm.

[danske]

I appreciate all your comments on this thread. There is alot of confusion about HOS regulations, especially around the split logging rules. When I was still driving(I quit 11 years ago, but still hold a CDL), I split logged back then(before new HOS regs) when teaming(eg. 6 on with 5 hours driving and 6 hours off) and a couple times solo. I think it was simpler to understand back then.

Your comments makes me think of a third situation which could relate to my original post. Here is it:

A team is driving with a schedule of 12 on and 12 off says 12am to 12pm and 12pm to 12am. The team is stopped for a DOT Inspection at 6am, the off-duty partner is woke for license, logbook check, and several other issues. The off-duty partner indeeds take 30 minutes to perform these duties and he legally logs it as "ON-DUTY(not driving)" with a note "DOT Inspection". At what time that night will his 14 hours be up and not be able drive anymore?

I assume the correct answer is 8pm. This could be a problem disrupting the truck schedule and delaying the delivery of a load.

[golfhobo]

According to YOUR timetable given here, you slept for 8 hours before moving ANY vehicles or trailers. That "splits" your 10 hour break. After going to line 3 at 6 a.m. for say, 1 hour, to accomplish all tasks, you can return to your sleeper from 7 - 9 a.m. if you are not required to attend the unloading. Now, you've gotten your "second" half of the break, and your 14 hour clock will start over from the END of the "first" break (in this case the 8 hour one,) or 6 a.m. So, when you begin work again at 9 a.m., you have 11 hours left on your 14 in which to drive 10 more hours. At THAT point, you would again need an 8 hour sleeper berth break, but you might as well try to get all 10 at once, and restart the full clocks.

Oops! Hold on there,hobo! He never stated how long he drove prior to going off duty at 10pm.

Let me point out something he stated in the second scenario:

Second, when am I "DRIVING" and when am I "ON-DUTY(Not Driving)"? If I am asked to reposition several trailers for a customer on their property and it takes me more than 15 minutes, can I LEGALLY log this time as "ON-DUTY(Not Driving)"? Again, I don't want the answer every driver would give(eg. Drop and Hook this trailer for that one and all the other work never happened ). So, can I LEGALLY move my truck after my 11 hours of driving if I performing this duty on a customer's property?

He states already drove 11 hours prior to going off duty. He cannot, under any circumstances, drive a CMV until he has 10 hours off. No splitting it. Period.

The real question he had was if he would have to consider time driving a CMV on private property as On Duty (driving) time, to which the answer is yes. It doesn't matter if you are a public road, or private property. All time spent at the controls of a CMV is driving time.

As usual, Rev, you are right on top of things. Thanks for "catching" what you THINK was a mistake made by me. However....

I was addressing only the FIRST scenario, in which he said what time he went to bed, NOT how many hours he had driven prior. (check his post... last one on page 1.) For whatever reason, I assumed that he MIGHT have been "splitting" before his shutdown, OR that he had not driven all 11 hours straight. In THAT case, his 8 hour sleeper berth would have sufficed to allow him to "split" and get in the dock, and then "break" again.

I "may" have lumped some of what he said in scenario "2" in my answer, but it was unintentional. Besides, I was still "reeling" from the exchange between you and Uturn, and trying to figure out how to straighten both of you out on that one!

Funny thing is... NONE of this applies to his original post!

Oh well.... just another day in the DAC/REGS forum! :shock:

[golfhobo]

This is a PRIME example of why EVERY driver, whether he LIKES the new rules or not, ought to learn how to "split log."

According to YOUR timetable given here, you slept for 8 hours before moving ANY vehicles or trailers. That "splits" your 10 hour break. After going to line 3 at 6 a.m. for say, 1 hour, to accomplish all tasks, you can return to your sleeper from 7 - 9 a.m.

Hobo,

I stated in my scenario that I was woke up at 6am to move my truck to the dock and that it took ONLY 5 minutes. After that, I returned to the sleeper.

My question does this start my 14 hour on-duty clock again? Yes, I return to the sleeper until 9am, so I do indeed complete my 10 hour break. If my 14 hour on-duty clock started at 6am then I am done driving that night at 8pm, not 11pm.

Danske:

What you DIDN'T state was your "condition" as relates to driving hours before you went to sleep the night before. This DOES make a difference. I don't know how often a driver actually drives EXACTLY 11 hours before reaching the consignee and shutting down on his lot, but I would think it is RARE (or poor "logging.") You wanted TRUE regulation answers, not real life, so IF you have exhausted your entire 11 hour driving time, and wake after only 8 hours in the sleeper to "be at the controls of your CMV" for even a mere 5 mins to dock it, you don't have to worry about WHEN to start your clock.... because you are allready IN VIOLATION of HOS.

IF, however, you had even a single 15 minute block available, and have HAD 8 consecutive hours in the sleeper, you could "split" your break as I mentioned earlier. Then, after returning to the sleeper for at least 2 hours, you would start your clock at 6 am when you wake again at 9. Yes, you would have to stop sooner that night. But, let's see if I can explain this right. Forget about your 14 hour "window." Let's talk driving straight thru.

If you DIDN't need to move the truck at 6 am, and stayed in the sleeper until 9, and then drove 11 hours straight, you'd be done driving at 8 pm, and shutdown 10 hours, and start fresh clocks at 6 am the next day.

IF you had left yourself that 15 mins, and "split" your break, You'd start your 14 hour clock at 6 am, with the break at the dock "on the clock," and leaving at 9 am, you could drive 10 3/4 hours straight and shutdown at 7:45 pm for 10 hours and have full clocks at 5:45 am.

So, if you wanted to drive straight hours, you'd be available to leave SOONER the next day, and would have been LEGAL while moving your truck. If you wanted to take a 15 min break that day, you'd essentially come out as a "wash."

But, if you wanted to take a two hour break during the day, you'd be better off NOT moving your truck at 6 am. But, if you TAKE that break, without split logging you can shut down LATER but for LONGER. And leave LATER the next day. I know it's confusing. Sometimes, you just have to look at the NEAR term and what you need to do. If you KNEW ahead of time that you'd have to move the truck to the dock at 6 am, you might want to be SURE you left yourself the 15 mins and "split." If you KNEW you could get the full 10 hours in before moving the truck, it is usually advisable.

Or you can do what most of us do, and SAY you were in the dock when you shut down. You seem smart enough to figure this all out.

I don't think I've confused you, but if I have, I apologize and will gladly make it more simple for you if you want.

Personally, IF I drove SOLO (which I don't) I would speed average where necessary to make a one hour lunch break show as a 2 hour "qualifying" break, and SPLIT LOG all the time.... UNTIL it behooves me to take a full 10 hours and get my full clocks back!

OF course, we ALL know that you SHOULD have parked in the dock when you got there, and won't have to start your clock till 9. But, you didn't want to HEAR that!

Now.... as for your original question: I cannot find (yet) an actual reg to address this, but the guidance on HOS that says that waking from an 8 hour sleeper berth break to answer a phone call or qualcomm message from your employer (if it is not REPEATEDLY) is NOT considered to be "detrimental" to your getting the required REST, SHOULD also apply to such a minor inconvenience as providing your license and logbook to an officer, while you REMAIN in the sleeper.... and therefore does NOT constitute a BREAK in your "BREAK."

YOU are not the "driver on-duty." YOU are not receiving the INSPECTION. The "legality" of them requesting this of you is still under MY investigation, but it does NOT interrupt your required break. NO need to "start over." No more so than getting up and going into the truckstop to take a pee would!

The FMCSA is "famous" for NOT addressing "themselves" or the DOT requirements in their regs. However, they often say NO CARRIER shall cause a driver to violate the regs. (I THINK I've seen them say "no other person shall") I interpret this to also mean that NO DOT OFFICER can force you to violtate their regs (unless you are back there smoking "crack" or something!)

To CYA, you MIGHT "flag" it without going to line 4. But, that is the MOST I would do! As a "team driver," when you are in the sleeper, you are OFF DUTY, NOT DRIVING, and NOT RESPONSIBLE for the CMV. NO ONE has the right to force you to VIOLATE the HOS rules regarding your "required rest."

To DO SO, and cause you to lose productive hours, could be considered a violation of free trade and interstate commerce regulations. Your company's lawyers would have a good time with this one! And they would have HELP!

In SOME other thread, a driver said that, to cover his butt, he logged line 1 everytime he got out of the sleeper to go inside and pee! Well.... if he's taking a full 10 hours off.... no problem. If he's "split logging" and taking only 8 in the sleeper.... he's a FOOL! He just "insured" that he MUST take the full 10 hours off!

But, IF you come out of the sleeper, and get behind the controls of the CMV, and move it even an inch.... you are on line 3 or possibly 4, in some cases, and your "break time" WILL be impacted.

Your "doomsday" scenarios of accidents are VALID points! Either drop your trailer when you get there so a jockey can move it, or go on duty when your "split" allows it. Or do what the rest of us do!

I don't see any problem with your math OR your understanding of the HOS. Any more questions?

[allan5oh]

A team is driving with a schedule of 12 on and 12 off says 12am to 12pm and 12pm to 12am. The team is stopped for a DOT Inspection at 6am, the off-duty partner is woke for license, logbook check, and several other issues. The off-duty partner indeeds take 30 minutes to perform these duties and he legally logs it as "ON-DUTY(not driving)" with a note "DOT Inspection". At what time that night will his 14 hours be up and not be able drive anymore?

I assume the correct answer is 8pm. This could be a problem disrupting the truck schedule and delaying the delivery of a load.

at 6 am, the off-duty driver is 18 hours into his 14 hour rule. The 6 hours is included in the 14 hour rule because it was less then 8 hours.

Since the inspection took until 06:30, he now has to take 8 hours off, and is available at 14:30.

Bull**** I know!

Same applies for crossing the border, both drivers must be awake. Sometimes you have to go inside, and both drivers must go inside. This is all on-duty not driving.

I asked my companies safety manager about this, how their teams work it. He basically said they look the other way. The off-duty driver is not asked to log on-duty time.