Question on logs.

[Jackrabbit379]

Well,last night,when we(the guy I work with,and I)got to the warehouse,our Safety Director came out of the office,and we went in for a brief safety meeting. :? We get paid by the hour,so we didn't care. :P Well,it was over the hours,and logs,and stuff. He had a sheet of paper that had some of the regs,and what not. He was reading what was on paper about writing down our trailer numbers,and stuff(basically,filling out a log sheet),and he went over filling out a pre trip sheet. :| :? He asked us if we write down our converter dolly numbers. Me and my buddy,Doug both said,"yeah,on our pre trips". Well,our Safety man told us that we need to write down them on our logs as well. Of course,we told him that dollies are not DOT registered,no tags.,...We went back and forth for a little while. So,I guess,I will have to find room on that little truck/trailer box on the log to write down the dolly number,along with all the doubles.(pulling wiggle wagons takes up all the space in that box :P )

Anyway,to get to my question,.....and I guess,I should just do it,and not worry about it,but what does DOT have to say about writing down a converter dolly number,along with your trailers numbers? Ive had my logs checked once,and the DOT man never said a word. If there is any other wiggle wagon pullers here,do yall log your converter dollies? Are we required to write down the converter dolly on the log?

[classicxl]

if your safety guy wants it write it down

[Jackrabbit379]

Yeah,that was what I was thinking. Just hard-headed. :P

[classicxl]

yea what the hell if it keeps them out of your hair it is worth it

[Jackrabbit379]

That aint no lie.

[Uturn2001]

For some reason I seem to remember reading this in the CDL handbook I got from the DMV here in IL when I was studying to take all my written tests several years ago and the same argument was brought up in class about the dolly not being liscenced or registered and the answer given was that since it was a piece of equipment used on the roadway, like a truck or trailer, that it needed to be recorded. (My memory could be off on this too).

Since I could find nothing in the FMCSA regs I can only surmise there are a few possibilities.

1. It used to be a reg and the FMCSA changed it/deleted it some years ago.

2. It is something a few states want done from carriers who are based in those states.

3. I need to take some more vicodin and go back to bed. :wink: :wink:

[Dawn]

Below is the regulations for Pre-Trip: The pre-trip is a walk around of your post-trip inspection. The pre is at the beginning of the day (which is a walk around) the post-trip is your thorough inspection the one that really counts. To me they both count!

Remind you Canada is backwards: Their pre-trip is the most important.

If DOT looks at your logs, they look for one of them to be on line 4.
If you do a thorough POST-TRIP you may save yourself some downtime while your truck/trailer is being repaired.

§392.7 Equipment, inspection and use.
No commercial motor vehicle shall be driven unless the driver is satisfied that the following parts and accessories are in good working order, nor shall any driver fail to use or make use of such parts and accessories when and as needed:
Service brakes, including trailer brake connections.

Parking (hand) brake.
Steering mechanism.
Lighting devices and reflectors.
Tires.
Horn.
Windshield wiper or wipers.
Rear-vision mirror or mirrors.
Coupling devices.

§396.13 Driver inspection.
Before driving a motor vehicle, the driver shall:
(a) Be satisfied that the motor vehicle is in safe operating condition;
(b) Review the last driver vehicle inspection report; and
(c) Sign the report, only if defects or deficiencies were noted by the driver who prepared the report, to acknowledge that the driver has reviewed it and that there is a certification that the required repairs have been performed. The signature requirement does not apply to listed defects on a towed unit which is no longer part of the vehicle combination.


These was copied and pasted straight from the Green Book!

[Rev.Vassago]

If DOT looks at your logs, they look for one of them to be on line 4.

Please explain exactly how you can perform a pretrip or post trip inspection that ISN'T done on line 4.

§395.2 Definitions.


As used in this part, the following words and terms are construed to mean:

On duty time means all time from the time a driver begins to work or is required to be in readiness to work until the time the driver is relieved from work and all responsibility for performing work. On duty time shall include:

(2) All time inspecting, servicing, or conditioning any commercial motor vehicle at any time;

[dieselgrl]

If DOT looks at your logs, they look for one of them to be on line 4.

Please explain exactly how you can perform a pretrip or post trip inspection that ISN'T done on line 4.

§395.2 Definitions.


As used in this part, the following words and terms are construed to mean:

On duty time means all time from the time a driver begins to work or is required to be in readiness to work until the time the driver is relieved from work and all responsibility for performing work. On duty time shall include:

(2) All time inspecting, servicing, or conditioning any commercial motor vehicle at any time;

Only if it takes you less than 15 minutes, in which case you can flag it (listing how long it took your to complete the inspection) instead of completing a change of duty status/changing lines. Of course, if you do that, DOT can question your ability to do a complete vehicle inspection in less than 15 minutes...

[Rev.Vassago]

Only if it takes you less than 15 minutes, in which case you can flag it (listing how long it took your to complete the inspection) instead of completing a change of duty status/changing lines. Of course, if you do that, DOT can question your ability to do a complete vehicle inspection in less than 15 minutes...

I have yet to find someone who can actually pull that one off. :wink:

[dieselgrl]

Only if it takes you less than 15 minutes, in which case you can flag it (listing how long it took your to complete the inspection) instead of completing a change of duty status/changing lines. Of course, if you do that, DOT can question your ability to do a complete vehicle inspection in less than 15 minutes...

I have yet to find someone who can actually pull that one off. :wink:

I agree! It's the only way to get off the line 4 requirement you were talking about though

[Dawn]

If DOT looks at your logs, they look for one of them to be on line 4.

Please explain exactly how you can perform a pretrip or post trip inspection that ISN'T done on line 4.

§395.2 Definitions.


As used in this part, the following words and terms are construed to mean:

On duty time means all time from the time a driver begins to work or is required to be in readiness to work until the time the driver is relieved from work and all responsibility for performing work. On duty time shall include:

(2) All time inspecting, servicing, or conditioning any commercial motor vehicle at any time;

Because IF a driver can do his/her pre-trip in less than 15 minutes they can flag it! (I personally would spend 15 minutes @ least, but that is me being safe and accurate) Can you do a pre-trip in less than 15 minutes, the one that is required?
Your post-trip you have a full inspection and will require the inspection and the writting of the report so it should take you @ least 15 minutes (if not longer, I would lean against longer)

I used your words about the 15 minutes!
I would normally say if you can do it in less than 7.5 minutes you can flag it (being the pre-trip). The post-trip, if you can do all that in less than 7.5 or 15 minutes well you are super trucker, don't log any and I guess you can see what DOT says. The post-trip will/should take you @ least 15 minutes (which means line 4)

[Rev.Vassago]

Can you do a pre-trip in less than 15 minutes, the one that is required?

No.

[dieselgrl]

Because IF a driver can do his/her pre-trip in less than 15 minutes they can flag it! (I personally would spend 15 minutes @ least, but that is me being safe and accurate) Can you do a pre-trip in less than 15 minutes, the one that is required?
Your post-trip you have a full inspection and will require the inspection and the writting of the report so it should take you @ least 15 minutes (if not longer, I would lean against longer)

I used your words about the 15 minutes!
I would normally say if you can do it in less than 7.5 minutes you can flag it (being the pre-trip). The post-trip, if you can do all that in less than 7.5 or 15 minutes well you are super trucker, don't log any and I guess you can see what DOT says. The post-trip will/should take you @ least 15 minutes (which means line 4)

And I said that already, with a much greater economy of words.

[Dawn]

Can you do a pre-trip in less than 15 minutes, the one that is required?

No.

They BOTH are required, but the post-trip is your thorough inspection. Again I said IF you can do your pre-trip in less than 15 minutes great, flag it. Some drivers can and some can't. I DOUBT you can do your post-trip in less than 15 minutes being inspecting everything and filling out the report.

[Rev.Vassago]

Can you do a pre-trip in less than 15 minutes, the one that is required?

No.

They BOTH are required, but the post-trip is your thorough inspection. Again I said IF you can do your pre-trip in less than 15 minutes great, flag it. Some drivers can and some can't. I DOUBT you can do your post-trip in less than 15 minutes being inspecting everything and filling out the report.

Have you ever done a pre trip inspection? I would love for you to explain to all of us how to do one in less than 15 minutes.

Here's what is required in a Pre Trip inspection:

§383.113 Required skills.

(c) Air brake skills. Except as provided in §383.95, all applicants shall demonstrate the following skills with respect to inspection and operation of air brakes:

(c)(1) Pre-trip inspection skills. Applicants shall demonstrate the skills necessary to conduct a pre-trip inspection which includes the ability to:

(c)(1)(i) Locate and verbally identify air brake operating controls and monitoring devices;

(c)(1)(ii) Determine the motor vehicle's brake system condition for proper adjustments and that air system connections between motor vehicles have been properly made and secured;

(c)(1)(iii) Inspect the low pressure warning device(s) to ensure that they will activate in emergency situations;

(c)(1)(iv) Ascertain, with the engine running, that the system maintains an adequate supply of compressed air;

(c)(1)(v) Determine that required minimum air pressure build up time is within acceptable limits and that required alarms and emergency devices automatically deactivate at the proper pressure level; and

(c)(1)(vi) Operationally check the brake system for proper performance.

I would wager that, if done properly, would take about 7-10 minutes.

Then you have this to do as well:

§392.7 Equipment, inspection and use.

No commercial motor vehicle shall be driven unless the driver is satisfied that the following parts and accessories are in good working order, nor shall any driver fail to use or make use of such parts and accessories when and as needed:

Service brakes, including trailer brake connections.

Parking (hand) brake.

Steering mechanism.

Lighting devices and reflectors.

Tires.

Horn.

Windshield wiper or wipers.

Rear-vision mirror or mirrors.

Coupling devices.

There's your other 5-8 minutes. That is just the PRE TRIP inspection. The Post Trip inspection, which is a completely different reg, looks like this:

§396.11 Driver vehicle inspection report(s).

(a) Report required. Every motor carrier shall require its drivers to report, and every driver shall prepare a report in writing at the completion of each day's work on each vehicle operated and the report shall cover at least the following parts and accessories:

Service brakes including trailer brake connections

Parking (hand) brake

Steering mechanism

Lighting devices and reflectors

Tires

Horn

Windshield wipers

Rear vision mirrors

Coupling devices

Wheels and rims

Emergency equipment

Please show some proof, Dawn, that you have either done these inspections in less than 15 minutes, or how exactly they can be done in less than 15 minutes.

[dieselgrl]

Can you do a pre-trip in less than 15 minutes, the one that is required?

No.

They BOTH are required, but the post-trip is your thorough inspection.

Nowhere in the regulations does it state this. You have to do the PAPERWORK at the completion of your day's work, but it doesn't say that's how you have to do it. I have never shown a change of duty status on my logs for my post trip, only a 15 minute block for my pretrip. My logs have been looked at more than once by roadside DOT AND internal company audits. You want to split hairs, I'll go toe to toe with you.

By the way... a little birdy told me you really shouldn't be preaching to the choir. I hear you're running anything BUT legal over at CF Transport.

[Rev.Vassago]

Can you do a pre-trip in less than 15 minutes, the one that is required?

No.

They BOTH are required, but the post-trip is your thorough inspection.

Nowhere in the regulations does it state this. You have to do the PAPERWORK at the completion of your day's work, but it doesn't say that's how you have to do it. I have never shown a change of duty status on my logs for my post trip, only a 15 minute block for my pretrip. My logs have been looked at more than once by roadside DOT AND internal company audits. You want to split hairs, I'll go toe to toe with you.

Please see my above post regarding post trip inspections. The items that are covered on the report, that you check off as being in proper operating order, must be inspected before you can check them off - otherwise, how do you know that the item is in proper operating order?

My personal opinion is that BOTH the pre-trip and post-trip inspections should be done thoroughly. And because they are both done thoroughly, they both take over 15 minutes, and must be logged accordingly. If you are magical, however, and can pull off a pre trip or post trip inspection in less than 15 minutes, then by all means flag it. But they are both required to appear on your log, even if it is just flagged. After all, paperwork (which gets done in a post trip inspection) is an ON DUTY (not driving) activity.

[Dawn]

Can you do a pre-trip in less than 15 minutes, the one that is required?

No.

They BOTH are required, but the post-trip is your thorough inspection.

Nowhere in the regulations does it state this. You have to do the PAPERWORK at the completion of your day's work, but it doesn't say that's how you have to do it. I have never shown a change of duty status on my logs for my post trip, only a 15 minute block for my pretrip. My logs have been looked at more than once by roadside DOT AND internal company audits. You want to split hairs, I'll go toe to toe with you.

By the way... a little birdy told me you really shouldn't be preaching to the choir. I hear you're running anything BUT legal over at CF Transport.

Please read the post-trip inspection quote from DOT that I posted originally! It states must be shown in writing!

Again I believe in my original post about this, I stated many officers look for either one to be on line 4. They state as long as one of them is on line 4! My drivers log it this way daily and go through inspections and haven't been written up!
Now I do not tell a driver to flag a pre-trip, I state it just as I did here! If you can do a pre-trip in less than 15 minutes you can flag it. It is totally wrong for me to tell anyone it only takes them 15 minutes to do a post-trip or pre-trip. Joe can take 1 hour to do his and if that is the case that is what he should log!

We have been through 3 Internal DOT audits and have never been told we are wrong. Actually many more dealing with just equipment audits, which they will pull the post-trip form and match it to repair bills. If a driver writes something wrong with their truck or trailer and we didn't get it fixed we are in trouble. Haven't been in trouble yet?

Like I said all companies are different in this and all drivers are different!
Like I said also both pre & post is very important and I personally would feel it would take @ least 15 on both!

But the drivers want to make the best of their money and do it legally that is why I explained this!

And sorry your birdie told you WRONG! Where I work, we are FAR from allowing our drivers to run illegal!

No need to go toe to toe: I am only explaining my opinion as you have expressed your opinion! If you chose a different way then go for it. Either way is acceptable to DOT.

[Useless]

[quote="Dawn"][quote="tndieselgrl"][quote="Dawn"][quote="Rev.Vassago"][quote="Dawn"]

Is it just me???..... or are others out there having a bloody difficult time keeping track of who said what to whom, here??