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  #11  
Old 09-30-2006, 07:10 PM
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jiptwoo:

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You can just flag your pretrip, not using any minutes, then you can do your inspection anytime later. I always combined it with loading or unloading, 15 min. only.# 2 - No, one 15 min. inspection in 24 hrs. is all that's required. I have been doted many times and all I show is a 15 min inspection whether it's during loading, unloading, or during fuel, one line drawn down for 15 min , and that's it. Everything else I just flag, and have never had a ticket on my logs. Wasting 15 minutes for fueling, loading, unloading is something the personal companies require, but the only thing in the reg's is one 15 min. inspection in a 24 hr. period.
Cases have been built for 70 hour rule violations using 15 minutes for pre-trip/post-trip inspections, 15 minutes for fuel each fuel stop and 15 minutes for loading/unloading when drivers fail to log such events and the driving time indicated the 70-hour rule was close. Roadside officers do not do the in-depth investigation the DOT does during compliance reviews. When a CR is performed all documentation is used to investigate, i.e. driver trip sheets, payroll, fuel receipts, bills of lading, repairs, roadside inspections, etc. The DOT reviews a minimum of 30 days for the drivers selected for HOS.

Rev.Vassago:

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No - this section of FMCSA code pertains to Pre Trip inspections - not in-route inspections. It must be done prior to driving. There are no regulations for in-route inspections, except for certain operations (such as hazmat, oversize, etc.)
Incorrect, Part 392 states:

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?392.7 Equipment, inspection and use.

No commercial motor vehicle shall be driven unless the driver is satisfied that the following parts and accessories are in good working order, nor shall any driver fail to use or make use of such parts and accessories when and as needed:

Service brakes, including trailer brake connections.

Parking (hand) brake.

Steering mechanism.

Lighting devices and reflectors.

Tires.

Horn.

Windshield wiper or wipers.

Rear-vision mirror or mirrors.

Coupling devices.
I have always considered this the in-transit inspection. Every time the driver exits the vehicle then these items should be checked before the driver continues operation. Drivers are often asked when was the last time they checked the vehicle when safety defects are discovered.

Be safe.
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  #12  
Old 09-30-2006, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myth_Buster
I have always considered this the in-transit inspection.
What you consider to be a regulation is irrelevant. It's what FMCSA considers to be a regulation that matters.

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Every time the driver exits the vehicle then these items should be checked before the driver continues operation.
The question wasn't whether the items should be checked throughout the trip, but when it was necessary to log it - FMCSA is very clear that a pre-trip and post-trip inspection are required, and that they are considered "On Duty, Not Driving".

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Drivers are often asked when was the last time they checked the vehicle when safety defects are discovered.
Your point? If I perform, and log a pre-trip inspection, and am stopped at a scale where a defect is discovered, I have satisfied the FMCSA rules, and will not receive a citation for my log book. Whether I receive a citation for defective equipment is a completely different issue.

Who are you anyway, and why are you bumping these old threads?
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  #13  
Old 09-30-2006, 10:49 PM
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Rev.Vassago:

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What you consider to be a regulation is irrelevant. It's what FMCSA considers to be a regulation that matters.
There?s no question the regulation exist, it?s a matter of interpretation. In the case of Part 392 a driver is responsible for safe operation of the vehicle at all times.

Quote:
The question wasn't whether the items should be checked throughout the trip, but when it was necessary to log it - FMCSA is very clear that a pre-trip and post-trip inspection are required, and that they are considered "On Duty, Not Driving".
Perhaps, however, you posted erroneous information stating there was no requirement for in-route inspections.

Quote:
No - this section of FMCSA code pertains to Pre Trip inspections - not in-route inspections. It must be done prior to driving. There are no regulations for in-route inspections, except for certain operations (such as hazmat, oversize, etc.)
In addition to your comment you failed to list Part 392.7 as a regulation that required an inspection to be performed.

Part 392 varies from Part 396, whereas Part 392 is the operation of a CMV. Part 396 is scheduled maintenance.

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Quote:
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Drivers are often asked when was the last time they checked the vehicle when safety defects are discovered.
Your point?
It increases culpability for prosecution. The FMCSA does not write tickets, the FMCSA prepares cases. When it can be substantiated the driver failed to do their job the driver may receive a claim letter from the FMCSA.

The FMCSR now requires Special Agents to complete 32 Level 1 or Level 5 inspections each year. Therefore drivers are seeing more of the FMCSA than in previous years.

Quote:
If I perform, and log a pre-trip inspection, and am stopped at a scale where a defect is discovered, I have satisfied the FMCSA rules, and will not receive a citation for my log book.
No but you can be cited for Part 396.7 Unsafe vehicles forbidden or Part 392.7 or other applicable violation for maintenance issues.

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Whether I receive a citation for defective equipment is a completely different issue.
Perhaps, however, as indicated you provided mis-leading information so drivers should be educated of the facts.

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Who are you anyway,
Someone knowledgeable of the regulations and enforcement procedures.

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and why are you bumping these old threads?
The posts were on the current page, and uncovering misconceptions is important. You have posted some good information. However, some of the information you supplied isn?t factual.

Be safe.
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  #14  
Old 09-30-2006, 11:22 PM
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I worked for an outfit that required the flag at the beginning and the actually logged post trip. I NEVER did it that way as I am in agreement with the way Rev Vassago inerprets the regs. after a while they quit complaining about it. Some of these companies hire some real odd ducks for safety managers and some who have also never driven a truck...
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  #15  
Old 09-30-2006, 11:40 PM
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Fozzy

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I worked for an outfit that required the flag at the beginning and the actually logged post trip. I NEVER did it that way as I am in agreement with the way Rev Vassago inerprets the regs. after a while they quit complaining about it. Some of these companies hire some real odd ducks for safety managers and some who have also never driven a truck...
Then again perhaps drivers fail to log realistic times for work performed and never expect to be caught. Is it unrealistic to believe that performing a pre-trip and filling out the corresponding DVIR takes at least 15 minutes? I once worked for a carrier that insisted DVIRs be marked "No Defects Found" and any equipment safety issues be submitted on a separate sheet to the maintenance department. Those separate sheets can be used in documenting false reports, i.e. DVIRs. The DVIR is a required report and covered by Part 390.35.

It's not uncommon for drivers to be cited for false logs when there is unrealistic on-duty time recorded, i.e. 15 minutes for tarping a load of hay. :shock:

Be safe.
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  #16  
Old 10-01-2006, 12:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myth_Buster
There?s no question the regulation exist, it?s a matter of interpretation. In the case of Part 392 a driver is responsible for safe operation of the vehicle at all times.
Whether a driver is responsible for the safe operation of a vehicle has nothing to do with the question that the original poster asked.

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Perhaps, however, you posted erroneous information stating there was no requirement for in-route inspections.
I still contend that there is no regulation requiring an in-route inspection to be logged. Whether or not you are interpreting 392 as such does not make it an FMCSA rule.

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In addition to your comment you failed to list Part 392.7 as a regulation that required an inspection to be performed.
Because 396.13 relates to pre-trip inspections, while ?392.7 does not.

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Part 392 varies from Part 396, whereas Part 392 is the operation of a CMV. Part 396 is scheduled maintenance.
No, part 396 relates to INSPECTION, repair, and maintainance. Part 396.13 specifically refers to the driver, not the carrier.

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It increases culpability for prosecution. The FMCSA does not write tickets, the FMCSA prepares cases. When it can be substantiated the driver failed to do their job the driver may receive a claim letter from the FMCSA.
No, the carrier is responsible for maintainance, not the driver.

Quote:
The FMCSR now requires Special Agents to complete 32 Level 1 or Level 5 inspections each year. Therefore drivers are seeing more of the FMCSA than in previous years.
But if a driver has performed the required pre-trip, and post-trip inspections, they have satisfied all FMCSA rules pertaining to logging inspections in their logbook.

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Quote:
If I perform, and log a pre-trip inspection, and am stopped at a scale where a defect is discovered, I have satisfied the FMCSA rules, and will not receive a citation for my log book.
No but you can be cited for Part 396.7 Unsafe vehicles forbidden or Part 392.7 or other applicable violation for maintenance issues.
Maintainance issues are not a driver violation, they are a carrier violation.

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Quote:
Whether I receive a citation for defective equipment is a completely different issue.
Perhaps, however, as indicated you provided mis-leading information so drivers should be educated of the facts.
No I didn't. You are merely changing the subject to something that was not being discussed in this thread.

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Who are you anyway,
Someone knowledgeable of the regulations and enforcement procedures.
I think that you should present some credentials before trying to pass yourself off as an expert.

Quote:
Quote:
and why are you bumping these old threads?
The posts were on the current page, and uncovering misconceptions is important. You have posted some good information. However, some of the information you supplied isn?t factual.
392.7 has nothing to do with pre-trip inspections, and isn't relevant to the discussion at hand.

Quote:
?392.7 Equipment, Inspection, and Use

Question 1: Must a driver prepare a written report of a pretrip inspection performed under ?392.7?

Guidance: No.
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  #17  
Old 10-01-2006, 02:44 AM
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Rev.Vassago

Quote:
Quote:
Perhaps, however, you posted erroneous information stating there was no requirement for in-route inspections.

I still contend that there is no regulation requiring an in-route inspection to be logged. Whether or not you are interpreting 392 as such does not make it an FMCSA rule.
I disagree, the reason why Part 397 used to specify that tire checks must be flagged is because it complimented Part 395:

Quote:
?395.8 Driver's record of duty status.

(f)(1) Entries to be current. Drivers shall keep their record of duty status current to the time shown for the last change of duty status.
That means as soon as the driver stops and he/she is no longer driving the location must be flagged with the city/state. If a driver is no longer driving, i.e. stopping for fuel, to take a break, etc. they are either off-duty, in the sleeper berth, or on-duty not driving.

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Because 396.13 relates to pre-trip inspections, while ?392.7 does not.
Quote:
?392.7 Equipment, inspection and use.
No commercial motor vehicle shall be driven unless the driver is satisfied that the following parts and accessories are in good working order, nor shall any driver fail to use or make use of such parts and accessories when and as needed:

?396.13 Driver inspection.
Before driving a motor vehicle, the driver shall:
Both sections state the vehicle shall not be driven or driving why doesn?t Part 392 deal with pre-trip? The sections compliment one another, Part 396 addresses inspecting the vehicle before it is operated Part 392 addresses at any time.

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Quote:
Myth_Buster:
It increases culpability for prosecution. The FMCSA does not write tickets, the FMCSA prepares cases. When it can be substantiated the driver failed to do their job the driver may receive a claim letter from the FMCSA.
Quote:
Rev.Vassago
No, the carrier is responsible for maintainance, not the driver.
Quote:
?396.1 Scope.

General
? Every motor carrier, its officers, drivers, agents, representatives, and employees directly concerned with the inspection or maintenance of motor vehicles shall comply and be conversant with the rules of this part.
Sorry but drivers have been prosecuted for issues regarding vehicle condition. Regardless of how you want to phrase it if a driver violates Part 396.7 can be prosecuted:

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?396.7 Unsafe operations forbidden.

(a) General ? A motor vehicle shall not be operated in such a condition as to likely cause an accident or a breakdown of the vehicle.

(b) Exemption ? Any motor vehicle discovered to be in an unsafe condition while being operated on the highway may be continued in operation only to the nearest place where repairs can safely be effected. Such operation shall be conducted only if it is less hazardous to the public than to permit the vehicle to remain on the highway.
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Myth_Buster:

The FMCSR now requires Special Agents to complete 32 Level 1 or Level 5 inspections each year. Therefore drivers are seeing more of the FMCSA than in previous years.
Quote:
Rev.Vassago
But if a driver has performed the required pre-trip, and post-trip inspections, they have satisfied all FMCSA rules pertaining to logging inspections in their logbook.
But if a driver has failed to log all stops then the driver is in violation per 395.8 and if the driver has not performed the necessary inspections in-accordance-with Part 392 and is operating a vehicle in violation of Part 396.7 the driver can be prosecuted.

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Quote:
Rev.Vassago:

If I perform, and log a pre-trip inspection, and am stopped at a scale where a defect is discovered, I have satisfied the FMCSA rules, and will not receive a citation for my log book.
Quote:
Myth_Buster:
No but you can be cited for Part 396.7 Unsafe vehicles forbidden or Part 392.7 or other applicable violation for maintenance issues.


Quote:
Rev.Vassago
Maintainance issues are not a driver violation, they are a carrier violation.
Again I disagree; vehicle condition is a driver?s responsibility. Vehicle condition is tied to maintenance. If a driver operates an unsafe vehicle and kills someone the charge can be changed from manslaughter to 2nd degree murder. Doubt that, look at the driver who had brakes out of adjustment and killed some passengers in a bus on I-90 near Hampshire.

Truck Bus Crash

Quote:
Quote:
Rev.Vassago:

Who are you anyway,
Quote:
Myth_Buster
Someone knowledgeable of the regulations and enforcement procedures.
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Rev.Vassago
I think that you should present some credentials before trying to pass yourself off as an expert.
Did they change the spelling of expert? Seems to me I said I was knowledgeable of the regulations. Besides where are your credentials? This is the Internet and an open forum, people can make a judgement call based on the facts presented and the attached information. I'm under no obligation to reveal my indentity.

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Rev.Vassago
392.7 has nothing to do with pre-trip inspections, and isn't relevant to the discussion at hand.
I disagree, polonus asked additional questions and you responded:

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Quote:
polonus wrote:
Quote:

?396.13 Driver inspection.

Before driving a motor vehicle, the driver shall:

(a) Be satisfied that the motor vehicle is in safe operating condition;
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Rev.Vassago
Better find your 15 minutes elsewhere.
Quote:
polonous
Thanks. That is what I am doing for last 25 years, but this quotation does not answer all my questions. I understand, that I have to inspect truck every time before I am moving again and I do it, but I do not always have to mark it in my logbook, right?
Quote:
Rev.Vassago
No - this section of FMCSA code pertains to Pre Trip inspections ? not in-route inspections. It must be done prior to driving. There are no regulations for in-route inspections, except for certain operations (such as hazmat, oversize, etc.)
You and polonus changed the topic. I interjected and addressed some misconceptions and offered Part 392.7 as justification for the in-route inspection.

In reality the topic never hit the true question:

Quote:
Is it necessarily to log pre trip inspection before truck starts moving If I plan to fuel two hrs down the road, can I mark PTI with fueling, instead of showing PTI at the beginning of the day? It would save me 15 minutes, since my company allows us to combine fueling and pretrip in one 15 min mark.
Part 395 has no requirements to identify ?PTI?:

Quote:
?395.8 Driver's Record of Duty Status

Question 23:
When the driver's duty status changes, do ?395.8(c) or 395.8(h)(5) require a description of on-duty not driving activities ("fueling," "pre-trip," "loading," "unloading,", etc.) in the remarks section in addition to the name of the nearest city, town or village followed by the State abbreviation?

Guidance: No. Many motor carriers require drivers to identify work performed during a change of duty status. Part 395 neither requires nor prohibits this practice.
The driver does not have to list ?PTI.? The regulations have no requirement to log the inspection, just the on-duty time required to do the inspection. If the inspection took 15 minutes then 15 minutes must be logged.

Be safe.
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  #18  
Old 10-01-2006, 03:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myth_Buster
Fozzy

Quote:
I worked for an outfit that required the flag at the beginning and the actually logged post trip. I NEVER did it that way as I am in agreement with the way Rev Vassago inerprets the regs. after a while they quit complaining about it. Some of these companies hire some real odd ducks for safety managers and some who have also never driven a truck...
Then again perhaps drivers fail to log realistic times for work performed and never expect to be caught. Is it unrealistic to believe that performing a pre-trip and filling out the corresponding DVIR takes at least 15 minutes? I once worked for a carrier that insisted DVIRs be marked "No Defects Found" and any equipment safety issues be submitted on a separate sheet to the maintenance department. Those separate sheets can be used in documenting false reports, i.e. DVIRs. The DVIR is a required report and covered by Part 390.35.

It's not uncommon for drivers to be cited for false logs when there is unrealistic on-duty time recorded, i.e. 15 minutes for tarping a load of hay. :shock:

Be safe.
And?
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  #19  
Old 10-01-2006, 03:30 AM
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If you continue to fail to log on-duty activities you face more serious issues.

Log the hours you work, it may save you money and/or jail time in the future.

Be safe.
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  #20  
Old 10-01-2006, 03:38 AM
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That's not the topic of the discussion was it? I logged everything that was required of me to log. I of course is in the staggering majority. I would not work a job where I'd have to falsify to get the job done.
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