Could this be why some succeed in trucking?

[LightsChromeHorsepower]

Switching gears to education in 5...4...3...2...

I'm not sure he's educatable.

If you talk to our good neighbor, Mr. Booth, tell him to check out my new avatar. Bumper stickers are $3.00 each & I got tee shirts coming.

And jumping this thread totally off the tracks-

I was checking out the Cal Jobs website last night, a truck driving school around Sacramento wants to hire an instructor- for 12 bucks an hour. Would any of you trust somebody making that little to teach somebody how to drive an 80,000 pound truck down the highway?

[mike3fan]

If you talk to our good neighbor, Mr. Booth, tell him to check out my new avatar. Bumper stickers are $3.00 each & I got tee shirts coming.

I guess I'll take 10 of those stickers and $30 bucks, you are paying us to take that crap right?

[Dejanh]

xxxxx

People are scared of the unknown and expecially scared if more and more lies are piled up into this conversation.

Mike, I have expirienced health care service in other countries, Croatia for one, and in the ,,anything&everything'' section of this forum, i have explained this clearly. My parents have done many procedures there and check this out, EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE AMERICAN, they have payed the same cost as their regular citizens. You cannot simply blast everything that you may be against expecially if you have not expirienced it.

If your whole life you have been tought one thing, that will be the only thing you know. It is very different when you look at the things from the outside looking in, then from the inside. You dont know how much we are overpaying for something utill you compare it with something else.

$4500 for a 20min.MRI is not too much, its a waay too much no matter if you are Republican or Democrat.

[LightsChromeHorsepower]

I guess I'll take 10 of those stickers and $30 bucks, you are paying us to take that crap right?

Just send me your address & I'll get your "package" in the mail.

[LightsChromeHorsepower]

If your whole life you have been tought one thing, that will be the only thing you know. It is very different when you look at the things from the outside looking in, then from the inside. .

It's called provincialism. We seem to awash in it in this country. I was lucky. I got to visit 15 foreign countries as a teenager, with teachers there to help me place what I was seeing in context. I've since visited a few others on my own as an adult. Having just the most basic comprehension of other cultures been both a blessing and a burden all through my life. In some ways I think it would be easier if I could forget all that I have seen and just listen to talk radio for my education. I would be a he** of a lot more certain about everything............even though I would be wrong!

[GMAN]

We already have rationed healthcare in this country if you are on public healthcare. Government sponsored insurance already limits how may prescriptions they will pay for per month. That is not likely to change with the Obama healthcare system.

There are those who use the emergency room for their healthcare needs. Some are serious and others go there to be treated for a cold. I know since I have been in the emergency room on a number of occasions with my wife and experienced it first hand. Much of our current healthcare costs come from illegals going to our emergency rooms. I know this due to family members who work in healthcare. I have also seen this first hand as well as talking with healthcare workers while in the hospital with my wife. Illegals are on the verge of bankrupting many hospitals across this country. It should not be up to the U.S. government to provide healthcare to illegals. It is time for our politicians to find their backbone and do the right thing.

I have spoken to a number of Canadians about their healthcare. With rare exceptions most think it is great unless you are chronically ill or need a major surgical procedure. You may get it or not. And you don't have to take my word for it. Many have been interviewed on TV over the years and there are thousands who come to this country for surgical procedures each year. There are numerous stories that have been reported on the news.

As far as taxes and the Obama spending binge are concerned. If you think that this administration or any other for that matter, can increase the size of government without raising taxes then you are very naive and don't understand how the world works. Any time you add a bureaucracy such as the healthcare plan to our government you WILL increase taxes. According to some figures that I have read the Obama stimulus plan brings all the taxes up to about 60% of what we earn. The healthcare proposal will only increase taxes further. Simple logistics will tell you that when you add 40 or 50 million people's healthcare costs to the public budget you will need to raise taxes to pay for it. This country is on the verge of bankruptcy as it is. I have NEVER known of any government proposal to meet or be less than what was proposed. It is usually several times the estimate. They use lower estimates so that the American people will buy their tax program.

Obama promised no new taxes for anyone making less than $250,000/year. No one with any common sense would have bought into that, but millions apparently did. This government has always been primarily supported by the middle class. That will not change unless the way in which the government raises revenue changes. Obama has promised to tax the coal industry into oblivion. We have many coal power plants across the country. Each tax increase imposed by them will be passed on to the consumer. That is mostly the middle class. Other taxes he has in the works will likely include an increase on fuel taxes. When does it end? When will those of you who want to live off the government begin to understand that the government is us. The government has no business deciding how or where we get our healthcare. There are many other instances where the government has decided to interfere in private business and that has never worked out for the better.

Healthcare is expensive. Nationalizing it is not the answer. Another government run agency is not the answer. If you want things to cost less then we can make changes to the industry that will actually work. We can take healthcare decisions out of the hands of the insurance industry and the government. Healthcare decisions should be made by the patient and their doctor. The more people who get involved in the decision process means that costs will increase. Tort reform is another way to reduce costs. Limiting how and when lawsuits can take place and the amount is one way to reduce costs. Another is to keep the government out of the decision making process. One other thing that will reduce costs over night is to send all these illegals back to where they came. This one thing alone could reduce costs by many millions of dollars over night. Fixing the problem isn't complicated. All it takes is the will. When I was growing up most people went to their doctor and paid for their visit out of their own pocket. If they were given a prescription they went to the pharmacy, had it filled and paid for it out of their own pocket. You see, by having the government and insurance companies paying for doctor visits and prescriptions reduces competition and raises costs. If we all had to pay for our prescriptions we would see a dramatic decrease in prescription costs.

[LightsChromeHorsepower]

xxxxx

[Dejanh]

We already have rationed healthcare in this country if you are on public healthcare. Government sponsored insurance already limits how may prescriptions they will pay for per month. That is not likely to change with the Obama healthcare system.

My brother has a Celebral Palsy and has Medicaid. He recieved a booklet which explained to him what doctors accept medicaid and where he may choose to go. It just happend that pretty much every doctor takes Medicaid in this program but since my brother is lazy he never went to see one ever since he turned 18.

It's not rationed, its about who accepts the program, in this case Medicaid.

There are those who use the emergency room for their healthcare needs. Some are serious and others go there to be treated for a cold. I know since I have been in the emergency room on a number of occasions with my wife and experienced it first hand. Much of our current healthcare costs come from illegals going to our emergency rooms. I know this due to family members who work in healthcare. I have also seen this first hand as well as talking with healthcare workers while in the hospital with my wife. Illegals are on the verge of bankrupting many hospitals across this country. It should not be up to the U.S. government to provide healthcare to illegals. It is time for our politicians to find their backbone and do the right thing.

It is easy to blame the illegals for everything. I have also been to many EM's with my parents and I am yet to see one, really. In Charlotte we have a'lot of clinics who take people without insurance and they are thriving. I know since i went there for my regular check-ups. $120 complete blood work. Many of those illegals you are referring too built this country for minimum wages. Most of their money is spent here and THEY PAY TAXES BUT, cannot do taxes at the beggining of the year because our government would not issue them the papers, so they end up not recieving their refund at all.

If you sent every illegal person out of this country then WE WOULD NOT BE WHAT WE ARE. Hitler tried it with Jews, it didnt work. Illegals made us who we are. Chinese built our railroad up west.

I have spoken to a number of Canadians about their healthcare. With rare exceptions most think it is great unless you are chronically ill or need a major surgical procedure. You may get it or not. And you don't have to take my word for it. Many have been interviewed on TV over the years and there are thousands who come to this country for surgical procedures each year. There are numerous stories that have been reported on the news.

Whoever told you this, told you a lie. If you need surgery you will get it. They dont run concetration camps up there in Canada Mike, common. People who come here for their surgeries better be rich. I have yet to hear this nonsence. Only thing i hear is people jumping borders from here to there, not the other way around.

As far as taxes and the Obama spending binge are concerned. If you think that this administration or any other for that matter, can increase the size of government without raising taxes then you are very naive and don't understand how the world works. Any time you add a bureaucracy such as the healthcare plan to our government you WILL increase taxes. According to some figures that I have read the Obama stimulus plan brings all the taxes up to about 60% of what we earn. The healthcare proposal will only increase taxes further. Simple logistics will tell you that when you add 40 or 50 million people's healthcare costs to the public budget you will need to raise taxes to pay for it. This country is on the verge of bankruptcy as it is. I have NEVER known of any government proposal to meet or be less than what was proposed. It is usually several times the estimate. They use lower estimates so that the American people will buy their tax program.

Taxes that would be raised cannot compare to the money we are bleeding as a nation right now. All of these bailouts and whatnot have to be payed for somehow. Americans want EVERYTHING for nothing. Well, if we want bases on every continent and stupid wars, we have to pay for it.....

Obama promised no new taxes for anyone making less than $250,000/year. No one with any common sense would have bought into that, but millions apparently did. This government has always been primarily supported by the middle class. That will not change unless the way in which the government raises revenue changes. Obama has promised to tax the coal industry into oblivion. We have many coal power plants across the country. Each tax increase imposed by them will be passed on to the consumer. That is mostly the middle class. Other taxes he has in the works will likely include an increase on fuel taxes. When does it end? When will those of you who want to live off the government begin to understand that the government is us. The government has no business deciding how or where we get our healthcare. There are many other instances where the government has decided to interfere in private business and that has never worked out for the better.

Rush Limbaugh politics. I hear him say how Obama wants to mandate circuimcision as well.
If you think that i fall under that category of wanting to live off of the government, then you are mistaken. I never once recieved anything and have worked really hard to have what I have, and i can tell you this. I payed taxes under Bush as well, as a matter of fact most of my taxes went up, including property tax as well as my fuel tax, my sales tax and my truck registration too. North Carolina had a REpublicans in charge.

I respect you too much to put you up in the same category i put in alot of these idiots i see on TV. Pretty much everything you say i get but only because i know that we have been thought to think that way. If you only get to live in Australia or Switzerland for a year, you would come back a brand new you. I put my life on it.

[GMAN]

My brother has a Celebral Palsy and has Medicaid. He recieved a booklet which explained to him what doctors accept medicaid and where he may choose to go. It just happend that pretty much every doctor takes Medicaid in this program but since my brother is lazy he never went to see one ever since he turned 18.

It's not rationed, its about who accepts the program, in this case Medicaid.

I have known a couple of people who have been on the government program and have a neighbor who works for one of the insurance companies who administer the program in my state. The main thing they ration are prescriptions under their program. For the most part they do receive the medical care providing they have a doctor in the area who will accept the insurance. If not the patient could have to drive to another city to receive medical care. The patient has little to say about any doctor they may want to see. Many of those who accept medicaid are foreign nationals. Patients are also discharged prematurely from hospitals in some cases. They have really tightened up on some of their spending in recent years. Before you can go to a specialist you must have pre approval. If the doctor doesn't receive the approval prior to your appointment then you cannot see the doctor. It is a bureaucratic maze. At this time the main problem is with prescriptions, at least in my area. It seems to me as though they spend $10 to save $1.

It is easy to blame the illegals for everything. I have also been to many EM's with my parents and I am yet to see one, really. In Charlotte we have a'lot of clinics who take people without insurance and they are thriving. I know since i went there for my regular check-ups. $120 complete blood work. Many of those illegals you are referring too built this country for minimum wages. Most of their money is spent here and THEY PAY TAXES BUT, cannot do taxes at the beginning of the year because our government would not issue them the papers, so they end up not receiving their refund at all.

I don't blame the illegals for everything. They are a major contributing factor. Illegals or those who are here on work visa's don't pay taxes. I have customers who employ them. There is also a county about 30 miles from me that has a Hispanic population of more than 30%. To the west there is also a large Hispanic population. While it seems more of a problem for the border states there are pockets across the country where there are large groups of both legal and illegals. I believe those who come here legally don't have to pay taxes for a certain amount of time according to one shipper whom I know who mostly employs Mexicans. And much of their money is sent back to their homeland. They may pay sales tax on purchases but it is my understanding that they are not required to pay income or social security taxes as long as they don't exceed the time limit. And even though they don't contribute to social security they may still collect. They can also collect food stamps and other government assistance. We pay for all of that with higher taxes.

If you sent every illegal person out of this country then WE WOULD NOT BE WHAT WE ARE. Hitler tried it with Jews, it didn't work. Illegals made us who we are. Chinese built our railroad up west.

Legal immigrants have made great contributions to this nation. I don't have a problem with those who go through the legal process to get here. My problem is with those who come here illegally. Most of the Jews that Hitler killed were natives of Germany. He just needed someone to blame for the woes of Germany. Since many Jews were land owners and business owners they were a good target when the economy was in the toilet. The world was in a depression. He made it appear that the Jews were the cause. When you say something long enough and with conviction some people will eventually believe you.

Whoever told you this, told you a lie. If you need surgery you will get it. They dont run concetration camps up there in Canada Mike, common. People who come here for their surgeries better be rich. I have yet to hear this nonsence. Only thing i hear is people jumping borders from here to there, not the other way around.

It was Canadians in Toronto who told me about not always being able to get needed surgeries. There have also been stories on the national media stating the same thing. The only time I have heard about Americans crossing the border into Canada or Mexico is to buy their prescriptions. They can save a lot of money by going to either country.
[/quote]

Taxes that would be raised cannot compare to the money we are bleeding as a nation right now. All of these bailouts and whatnot have to be payed for somehow. Americans want EVERYTHING for nothing. Well, if we want bases on every continent and stupid wars, we have to pay for it.....

You are right about all the reckless spending. What we are spending on the wars is minimal as to what we spend on various social programs. Many Americans do expect a lot for nothing. There was a time when an American would rather starve than ask for a handout from the government or anyone else for that matter. Unfortunately, there are too many today who think that they deserve a paycheck or other services from the government. That attitude is killing this country. We will pay a very heavy price for allowing the government to take care of us.

Rush Limbaugh politics. I hear him say how Obama wants to mandate circumcision as well.
If you think that i fall under that category of wanting to live off of the government, then you are mistaken. I never once received anything and have worked really hard to have what I have, and i can tell you this. I payed taxes under Bush as well, as a matter of fact most of my taxes went up, including property tax as well as my fuel tax, my sales tax and my truck registration too. North Carolina had a Republicans in charge.

I respect you too much to put you up in the same category i put in alot of these idiots i see on TV. Pretty much everything you say i get but only because i know that we have been thought to think that way. If you only get to live in Australia or Switzerland for a year, you would come back a brand new you. I put my life on it.

I haven't heard anything about circumcision. I wasn't directing what I said at you. My taxes also went up this year. The more services we demand from the government the more taxes will need to be collected to pay for them. I prefer paying my own way with my own money. I can do a much better job of spending my money than any government entity. And one thing that I can guarantee is that I can get much more for my money that the government.

As I stated earlier, there are things which need to be addressed in our healthcare. Socialization is not the answer. I don't want the government that involved in my life. I have to deal with their nonsense enough as it is.

[LightsChromeHorsepower]

We already have rationed healthcare in this country if you are on public healthcare.

We already have single payer if you are a member of Congress. Why shouldn't our elected officials get the same care as the rest of us? Maybe what we get isn't good enough for them?

Government sponsored insurance already limits how may prescriptions they will pay for per month. That is not likely to change with the Obama healthcare system.

What "government sponsored insurance" are you referring to, what are the limits and how many people actually have an issue with them?

There are those who use the emergency room for their healthcare needs. Some are serious and others go there to be treated for a cold. I know since I have been in the emergency room on a number of occasions with my wife and experienced it first hand. Much of our current healthcare costs come from illegals going to our emergency rooms. I know this due to family members who work in healthcare. I have also seen this first hand as well as talking with healthcare workers while in the hospital with my wife. Illegals are on the verge of bankrupting many hospitals across this country. It should not be up to the U.S. government to provide healthcare to illegals. It is time for our politicians to find their backbone and do the right thing.

Now you are trying to blame it all on the Mexicans. It's really beneath me to answer this, but I'll point out that first, for the amount of money we spend relative to other nations we should be able to afford to treat every illegal immigrant with ease, second that other nations have equally large populations of illegal immigrants and manage to offer them better care than we do. Check this story out for a sense of just how ugly things have become; How L.A.'s massive free clinic event came together -- latimes.com

I have spoken to a number of Canadians about their healthcare. With rare exceptions most think it is great unless you are chronically ill or need a major surgical procedure. You may get it or not. And you don't have to take my word for it. Many have been interviewed on TV over the years and there are thousands who come to this country for surgical procedures each year. There are numerous stories that have been reported on the news.

There are way more Americans traveling abroad for health care than there are Canadians coming here. "Medical Tourism" as it's called is expected to reach 40 billion dollars per year shortly. Do you think that is an indication that we have the world's best health care? When we have our citizens going to places like Mexico and Thailand for health care to the tune of 40 bil a year? Here's a link; http://www.patientsbeyondborders.com/media-room/faq.php

And for what it's worth, one of our drivers quit a couple of months ago. His wife is a Canadian citizen. Any guesses as to why they moved to BC?

As far as taxes and the Obama spending binge are concerned. If you think that this administration or any other for that matter, can increase the size of government without raising taxes then you are very naive and don't understand how the world works. Any time you add a bureaucracy such as the healthcare plan to our government you WILL increase taxes. According to some figures that I have read the Obama stimulus plan brings all the taxes up to about 60% of what we earn. The healthcare proposal will only increase taxes further. Simple logistics will tell you that when you add 40 or 50 million people's healthcare costs to the public budget you will need to raise taxes to pay for it. This country is on the verge of bankruptcy as it is. I have NEVER known of any government proposal to meet or be less than what was proposed. It is usually several times the estimate. They use lower estimates so that the American people will buy their tax program.

What too many people don't seem to understand is that the amount we spend on health care is not going to increase if we change to a single payer system. Right now 30% of every dollar spent on health care goes into the pockets of the insurance industry. How could government be any less efficient than that? Any additional taxes you pay to fund health care will be offset by not having to buy insurance. In fact, there should be a net savings throughout the economy as a whole. Businesses will be more profitable because they will not have to provide health benefits to current or past employees. The only people who will lose are the insurance industry fat cats and the politicians that they contribute billions to. If you have a problem with that, it's your problem.

Obama promised no new taxes for anyone making less than $250,000/year. No one with any common sense would have bought into that, but millions apparently did. This government has always been primarily supported by the middle class. That will not change unless the way in which the government raises revenue changes. Obama has promised to tax the coal industry into oblivion. We have many coal power plants across the country. Each tax increase imposed by them will be passed on to the consumer. That is mostly the middle class. Other taxes he has in the works will likely include an increase on fuel taxes. When does it end? When will those of you who want to live off the government begin to understand that the government is us. The government has no business deciding how or where we get our healthcare. There are many other instances where the government has decided to interfere in private business and that has never worked out for the better.

I thought we were talking about health care. What do taxes on coal plants have to do with health care?

Healthcare is expensive. Nationalizing it is not the answer.

Every other industrialized nation has publicly funded health care. They all spend substantially less than we do. They all have measurably healthier populaces. It seems to me that what we are doing is not the answer. Unless you like spending more money for an inferior product.

Another government run agency is not the answer.

Every other industrialized nation has publicly funded health care. They all spend substantially less than we do. They all have measurably healthier populaces. It seems to me that what we are doing is not the answer. Unless you like spending more money for an inferior product.


If you want things to cost less then we can make changes to the industry that will actually work. We can take healthcare decisions out of the hands of the insurance industry and the government. Healthcare decisions should be made by the patient and their doctor. The more people who get involved in the decision process means that costs will increase.

That is exactly what a properly structured single payer system would do. It works in every other industrialized nation on the planet.

Tort reform is another way to reduce costs. Limiting how and when lawsuits can take place and the amount is one way to reduce costs.

I'm not opposed to intelligent tort reform. But I don't want doctors getting away with blatant negligence either.

Another is to keep the government out of the decision making process.

If you are really that unhappy with the processes of government, why don't you try to make government more effective? We desperately need an effective government for many purposes including managing the costs of our health care system.

One other thing that will reduce costs over night is to send all these illegals back to where they came. This one thing alone could reduce costs by many millions of dollars over night.

Blaming the Mexicans again. Will it be Blacks & Jews next?

Fixing the problem isn't complicated. All it takes is the will. When I was growing up most people went to their doctor and paid for their visit out of their own pocket. If they were given a prescription they went to the pharmacy, had it filled and paid for it out of their own pocket. You see, by having the government and insurance companies paying for doctor visits and prescriptions reduces competition and raises costs. If we all had to pay for our prescriptions we would see a dramatic decrease in prescription costs.

When you were growing up, health care was almost absurdly simple as compared to what it is today. There were no multi-million dollar diagnostic machines, no medicines that cost billions of dollars to develop. New diseases have developed and the incidence of others has increased dramatically because of the many changes in how we live. If you want to go back to a 1950's standard of care you could get 1950's costs. You would also get 1950's mortality rates.

xxxxx

[Dejanh]

I have known a couple of people who have been on the government program and have a neighbor who works for one of the insurance companies who administer the program in my state. The main thing they ration are prescriptions under their program. For the most part they do receive the medical care providing they have a doctor in the area who will accept the insurance. If not the patient could have to drive to another city to receive medical care. The patient has little to say about any doctor they may want to see. Many of those who accept medicaid are foreign nationals. Patients are also discharged prematurely from hospitals in some cases. They have really tightened up on some of their spending in recent years. Before you can go to a specialist you must have pre approval. If the doctor doesn't receive the approval prior to your appointment then you cannot see the doctor. It is a bureaucratic maze. At this time the main problem is with prescriptions, at least in my area. It seems to me as though they spend $10 to save $1.

In that booklet i told you above there were names of many doctors and it was up to him to CHOOSE where to go, not the government agency. Right now everything that has to be done to a patient has to be aproved not by the government but by insurance companies.Single payer system would make sure that the procedure is covered instead of me having to call insurance companies and argue about why they didnt pay this and that, which i did many times.
Mike, my dad just recieved his notification on his next years insurance costs, they went up 15%. This is BCBS of NC. How can insurance go up during the biggest economic downturn since the great depression, when prices were suppose to be failing they are rising. It doesnt make any sense. How far will they go?
Peoples wages are being CUT, my dad's salary has been cut 10% while insurance went up? Who is protecting the people. He has to have a coverage, so he has to continue to pay regardless of his costs..

I don't blame the illegals for everything. They are a major contributing factor. Illegals or those who are here on work visa's don't pay taxes. I have customers who employ them. There is also a county about 30 miles from me that has a Hispanic population of more than 30%. To the west there is also a large Hispanic population. While it seems more of a problem for the border states there are pockets across the country where there are large groups of both legal and illegals. I believe those who come here legally don't have to pay taxes for a certain amount of time according to one shipper whom I know who mostly employs Mexicans. And much of their money is sent back to their homeland. They may pay sales tax on purchases but it is my understanding that they are not required to pay income or social security taxes as long as they don't exceed the time limit. And even though they don't contribute to social security they may still collect. They can also collect food stamps and other government assistance. We pay for all of that with higher taxes.

Here is how I know alot about this issue. My wife is from Ecuador. She came here illegaly long time ago and has fixed her status way before she married me. She came on a visa and decided to stay. She worked in a grocery store for 7 years paying taxes but never doing them at the begining of a year. As a illegal you cannot collect ANYTHING from the government, first thing they ask for is your SS# which she didnt have. She tried to go to our local community college with no luck, they ask for papers there too. She has never recieved food staps, medicaid, nada, zilch, yet payed her taxes....
There is a big mis conception when it comes to this issue. People THINK that illegals collect yet do not pay, when its the other way around. And let me tell you this as well...WE AS A COUNTRY MAKE MUCH MORE BY HAVING MEXICANS AND ALL OTHERS HERE THEN WE WOULD IF WE DIDNT HAVE THEM HERE.
There is a really big shopping center here in Charlotte on Central Avenue which only houses buisinesses ran by them. THEY ARE PACKED. These buisinesess are vital to our economy as well as these people. I took my wife out just yesterday to a Chinese place close by. Guy in front of me was Spanish with his family of 5. His bill was over 120$ and he payed cash when everyone payed with the CC.....Out local Bi-Lo grocery store benefits much from illegals as they shop there all thr time and its also packed with them.......LightsChromePower raised an interesting point in his earlier post about other countries having illegals as well but have way better health care system then we do. England for one has alot of immigrants yet spend waaay less on their health care then we do. France also. Germany with Turks and all others....Illegals have been painted with an ugly picture which does not suit them. These companies that you deliver to that have these guys there working, do you think they would be there if they didnt have them, would your load paid what it did?

Legal immigrants have made great contributions to this nation. I don't have a problem with those who go through the legal process to get here. My problem is with those who come here illegally. Most of the Jews that Hitler killed were natives of Germany. He just needed someone to blame for the woes of Germany. Since many Jews were land owners and business owners they were a good target when the economy was in the toilet. The world was in a depression. He made it appear that the Jews were the cause. When you say something long enough and with conviction some people will eventually believe you.

Our government is not stupid Mike, they can close that border anytime they want and fix this problem once and for all, but they don't. Its called legal slavery. Give them work but no benefits. NO BENEFITS. They do not collect any foodstamps Mike even though you think they do and i get that, i told you. I know why you think that.

It was Canadians in Toronto who told me about not always being able to get needed surgeries. There have also been stories on the national media stating the same thing. The only time I have heard about Americans crossing the border into Canada or Mexico is to buy their prescriptions. They can save a lot of money by going to either country.

Have you ever asked yourself why are prescriptions cheaper in Canada, (which has the same or better living standard than we do) than here, yet their government is not bankrupt?

You are right about all the reckless spending. What we are spending on the wars is minimal as to what we spend on various social programs. Many Americans do expect a lot for nothing. There was a time when an American would rather starve than ask for a handout from the government or anyone else for that matter. Unfortunately, there are too many today who think that they deserve a paycheck or other services from the government. That attitude is killing this country. We will pay a very heavy price for allowing the government to take care of us.

Its not minimal Mike, cost us over a trillion to have bases everywhere + around 700 billion for just a Pentagon budget which is overloaded with pork. And this is only what they tell us. Its better to invest that money here then in some thirld world bum **** country which will never have democracy. Nobody is asking for a handout, that is another miss conception, we would all pay, no free lunch.

I haven't heard anything about circumcision.

YouTube - Rush Limbaugh Responds To Jay-Z Song "Off That" Jay-Z Disses Him & Bill O'Reilly , skip to 1:01...
Alot of people believe that...

I wasn't directing what I said at you. My taxes also went up this year. The more services we demand from the government the more taxes will need to be collected to pay for them. I prefer paying my own way with my own money. I can do a much better job of spending my money than any government entity. And one thing that I can guarantee is that I can get much more for my money that the government.

As I stated earlier, there are things which need to be addressed in our healthcare. Socialization is not the answer. I don't want the government that involved in my life. I have to deal with their nonsense enough as it is.

Taxes that i was referring to were last years and the year before that, not this year. You cannot afford to spend your money paying for yourown medical care. 4500$ for a 20min MRI....i dont think so.

[GMAN]

Originally Posted by GMAN
We already have rationed healthcare in this country if you are on public healthcare.

We already have single payer if you are a member of Congress. Why shouldn't our elected officials get the same care as the rest of us? Maybe what we get isn't good enough for them?

They get better healthcare than most of us. They also make more money than most of us. The reason is that we don't hold them accountable. Congress is supposed to work for the people. At this point the people work for congress. They fleece us for enough they can pay for their own healthcare.


Government sponsored insurance already limits how may prescriptions they will pay for per month. That is not likely to change with the Obama healthcare system.

What "government sponsored insurance" are you referring to, what are the limits and how many people actually have an issue with them?

In my state there the state has taken over the federal medicaid program. It is called Tenncare. They limit name brand prescriptions to I believe 4 per month.


There are those who use the emergency room for their healthcare needs. Some are serious and others go there to be treated for a cold. I know since I have been in the emergency room on a number of occasions with my wife and experienced it first hand. Much of our current healthcare costs come from illegals going to our emergency rooms. I know this due to family members who work in healthcare. I have also seen this first hand as well as talking with healthcare workers while in the hospital with my wife. Illegals are on the verge of bankrupting many hospitals across this country. It should not be up to the U.S. government to provide healthcare to illegals. It is time for our politicians to find their backbone and do the right thing.

Now you are trying to blame it all on the Mexicans. It's really beneath me to answer this, but I'll point out that first, for the amount of money we spend relative to other nations we should be able to afford to treat every illegal immigrant with ease, second that other nations have equally large populations of illegal immigrants and manage to offer them better care than we do. Check this story out for a sense of just how ugly things have become; How L.A.'s massive free clinic event came together -- latimes.com

I would not want you to do anything that was beneath you. I suppose you haven't been keeping up on what is going on in California. Part of the reason they are going bankrupt is due to all the illegals living off the system.



I have spoken to a number of Canadians about their healthcare. With rare exceptions most think it is great unless you are chronically ill or need a major surgical procedure. You may get it or not. And you don't have to take my word for it. Many have been interviewed on TV over the years and there are thousands who come to this country for surgical procedures each year. There are numerous stories that have been reported on the news.

There are way more Americans traveling abroad for health care than there are Canadians coming here. "Medical Tourism" as it's called is expected to reach 40 billion dollars per year shortly. Do you think that is an indication that we have the world's best health care? When we have our citizens going to places like Mexico and Thailand for health care to the tune of 40 bil a year? Here's a link; http://www.patientsbeyondborders.com/media-room/faq.php

And for what it's worth, one of our drivers quit a couple of months ago. His wife is a Canadian citizen. Any guesses as to why they moved to BC?

The only ones that I have heard of going to Mexico or Thailand are doing so for their dentures or plastic surgery. There was a special on one of the news shows about it several months ago.

As far as taxes and the Obama spending binge are concerned. If you think that this administration or any other for that matter, can increase the size of government without raising taxes then you are very naive and don't understand how the world works. Any time you add a bureaucracy such as the healthcare plan to our government you WILL increase taxes. According to some figures that I have read the Obama stimulus plan brings all the taxes up to about 60% of what we earn. The healthcare proposal will only increase taxes further. Simple logistics will tell you that when you add 40 or 50 million people's healthcare costs to the public budget you will need to raise taxes to pay for it. This country is on the verge of bankruptcy as it is. I have NEVER known of any government proposal to meet or be less than what was proposed. It is usually several times the estimate. They use lower estimates so that the American people will buy their tax program.

What too many people don't seem to understand is that the amount we spend on health care is not going to increase if we change to a single payer system. Right now 30% of every dollar spent on health care goes into the pockets of the insurance industry. How could government be any less efficient than that? Any additional taxes you pay to fund health care will be offset by not having to buy insurance. In fact, there should be a net savings throughout the economy as a whole. Businesses will be more profitable because they will not have to provide health benefits to current or past employees. The only people who will lose are the insurance industry fat cats and the politicians that they contribute billions to. If you have a problem with that, it's your problem.

I can't believe that you actually believe that the government will take care of our healthcare for less than we can do it for ourselves. Having the government do this will create a huge bureaucracy that will need to be supported by tax dollars. That means that we will need to pay higher taxes. We are already paying about 60% of each dollar we earn to the government for various taxes to a government that can't even balance a budget. These people will pay $600 for a toilet seat yet you seem to think they can manage healthcare and save money? Businesses are not going to save any money. They will need to pay higher taxes in order to pay for the "FREE" healthcare. You better cut your drug usage. You are hallucinating.




Obama promised no new taxes for anyone making less than $250,000/year. No one with any common sense would have bought into that, but millions apparently did. This government has always been primarily supported by the middle class. That will not change unless the way in which the government raises revenue changes. Obama has promised to tax the coal industry into oblivion. We have many coal power plants across the country. Each tax increase imposed by them will be passed on to the consumer. That is mostly the middle class. Other taxes he has in the works will likely include an increase on fuel taxes. When does it end? When will those of you who want to live off the government begin to understand that the government is us. The government has no business deciding how or where we get our healthcare. There are many other instances where the government has decided to interfere in private business and that has never worked out for the better.

I thought we were talking about health care. What do taxes on coal plants have to do with health care?

It was a demonstration of what will happen with national healthcare. When the government throws on more taxes to business they pass that along to the consumer.



Healthcare is expensive. Nationalizing it is not the answer.

Every other industrialized nation has publicly funded health care. They all spend substantially less than we do. They all have measurably healthier populaces. It seems to me that what we are doing is not the answer. Unless you like spending more money for an inferior product.

Those who have government healthcare are trying to get away from it because it is driving them into bankruptcy.
Another government run agency is not the answer.

Every other industrialized nation has publicly funded health care. They all spend substantially less than we do. They all have measurably healthier populaces. It seems to me that what we are doing is not the answer. Unless you like spending more money for an inferior product.

I am not sure every industralized nation has publicly funded health care. It is easy to spend less when you ration the care participants receive. I would also challenge you on your statement. You would need to put everything side by side on the cost side and pay with the same dollars. You would also need to consider the cost of living in those countries.

If you want things to cost less then we can make changes to the industry that will actually work. We can take healthcare decisions out of the hands of the insurance industry and the government. Healthcare decisions should be made by the patient and their doctor. The more people who get involved in the decision process means that costs will increase.


[quote="LightsChromeHorsepower"]

That is exactly what a properly structured single payer system would do. It works in every other industrialized nation on the planet.
[quote="LightsChromeHorsepower"]

I am not sure it is working in every other industrialized nation. What proof do you have?


Tort reform is another way to reduce costs. Limiting how and when lawsuits can take place and the amount is one way to reduce costs.

I'm not opposed to intelligent tort reform. But I don't want doctors getting away with blatant negligence either.

I don't think negligence should be ignored, but many of the lawsuits that are filed are settled without even going to court. I think lawsuits are sometimes filed in expectation that the doctor or his insurance company will settle. Unfortunately, that is all too often the case with all insurance suits.



Another is to keep the government out of the decision making process.

If you are really that unhappy with the processes of government, why don't you try to make government more effective? We desperately need an effective government for many purposes including managing the costs of our health care system.

I am working on that. I agree that we need an effective government, but one that strictly adheres to our original constitution. At this point in our history our government is much too big and not responsive to those who support it.

One other thing that will reduce costs over night is to send all these illegals back to where they came. This one thing alone could reduce costs by many millions of dollars over night.

Blaming the Mexicans again. Will it be Blacks & Jews next?

I am not blaming the Mexicans. I said "ILLEGALS."


Fixing the problem isn't complicated. All it takes is the will. When I was growing up most people went to their doctor and paid for their visit out of their own pocket. If they were given a prescription they went to the pharmacy, had it filled and paid for it out of their own pocket. You see, by having the government and insurance companies paying for doctor visits and prescriptions reduces competition and raises costs. If we all had to pay for our prescriptions we would see a dramatic decrease in prescription costs.

When you were growing up, health care was almost absurdly simple as compared to what it is today. There were no multi-million dollar diagnostic machines, no medicines that cost billions of dollars to develop. New diseases have developed and the incidence of others has increased dramatically because of the many changes in how we live. If you want to go back to a 1950's standard of care you could get 1950's costs. You would also get 1950's mortality rates.

The polio vaccine was developed when I was growing up. I am sure it was quite expensive to develop. Much of the medical needs we have don't or should not involve million dollar diagnostic machines. Keep in mind that one reason some of these tests are performed is to protect the medical provider from litigation.

[GMAN]

In that booklet i told you above there were names of many doctors and it was up to him to CHOOSE where to go, not the government agency. Right now everything that has to be done to a patient has to be approved not by the government but by insurance companies.Single payer system would make sure that the procedure is covered instead of me having to call insurance companies and argue about why they didn't pay this and that, which i did many times.
Mike, my dad just received his notification on his next years insurance costs, they went up 15%. This is BCBS of NC. How can insurance go up during the biggest economic downturn since the great depression, when prices were suppose to be failing they are rising. It doesn't make any sense. How far will they go?
Peoples wages are being CUT, my dad's salary has been cut 10% while insurance went up? Who is protecting the people. He has to have a coverage, so he has to continue to pay regardless of his costs..

I don't think that it is right for these insurance companies to raise premiums when we are in a depression, either. I went through this myself with some of my insurance. They don't want their profits to diminish so they raise premiums. They should be lowering prices to become more competitive.

Here is how I know alot about this issue. My wife is from Ecuador. She came here illegally long time ago and has fixed her status way before she married me. She came on a visa and decided to stay. She worked in a grocery store for 7 years paying taxes but never doing them at the beginning of a year. As a illegal you cannot collect ANYTHING from the government, first thing they ask for is your SS# which she didn't have. She tried to go to our local community college with no luck, they ask for papers there too. She has never received food stamps, medicaid, nada, zilch, yet payed her taxes....
There is a big mis conception when it comes to this issue. People THINK that illegals collect yet do not pay, when its the other way around. And let me tell you this as well...WE AS A COUNTRY MAKE MUCH MORE BY HAVING MEXICANS AND ALL OTHERS HERE THEN WE WOULD IF WE DIDNT HAVE THEM HERE.
There is a really big shopping center here in Charlotte on Central Avenue which only houses businesses ran by them. THEY ARE PACKED. These businesses are vital to our economy as well as these people. I took my wife out just yesterday to a Chinese place close by. Guy in front of me was Spanish with his family of 5. His bill was over 120$ and he payed cash when everyone payed with the CC.....Out local Bi-Lo grocery store benefits much from illegals as they shop there all the time and its also packed with them.......LightsChromePower raised an interesting point in his earlier post about other countries having illegals as well but have way better health care system then we do. England for one has alot of immigrants yet spend waaay less on their health care then we do. France also. Germany with Turks and all others....Illegals have been painted with an ugly picture which does not suit them. These companies that you deliver to that have these guys there working, do you think they would be there if they didn't have them, would your load paid what it did?

Most of the Hispanics that I have seen are hard workers. There are some who do live off the system. I have seen some with food stamps and at the emergency room without the means to pay for their care. I remember reading some years ago that some countries actually require visitors or those moving to their country to have the means to pay for their healthcare.

Our government is not stupid Mike, they can close that border anytime they want and fix this problem once and for all, but they don't. Its called legal slavery. Give them work but no benefits. NO BENEFITS. They do not collect any foodstamps Mike even though you think they do and i get that, i told you. I know why you think that.

I agree that the government doesn't want to close the border. I would not call what these illegals are working for as slavery. You will find illegals working in a wide variety of jobs from farming to construction and manufacturing. And as stated above, some do collect food stamps. I don't think most do but there are those who do. As I said most of those whom I have met are working to provide for their families. Many of them send much of their paychecks back home. Some are marrying American women to tie themselves to the U.S.

Have you ever asked yourself why are prescriptions cheaper in Canada, (which has the same or better living standard than we do) than here, yet their government is not bankrupt?

I don't think that we should be paying more for prescriptions in the U.S. than they do in Canada or Mexico. We basically subsidize other countries prescriptions. Canada is having financial difficulties as is much of the rest of the world. Too much government spending is part of the reason.

Its not minimal Mike, cost us over a trillion to have bases everywhere + around 700 billion for just a Pentagon budget which is overloaded with pork. And this is only what they tell us. Its better to invest that money here then in some third world bum **** country which will never have democracy. Nobody is asking for a handout, that is another miss conception, we would all pay, no free lunch.

There is too much pork in most of our government. That is one reason to cut the size down to a manageable level. We spend more on social programs in this country than on our military. Government doesn't invest money. They just spend. Having the government take care of our every need is not a democracy. It is called socialism. It goes contrary to everything our country stands for. If you want the government to give you "FREE" healthcare then you are asking for a handout. We have gotten along just fine for more than 200 years without government healthcare. I don't think this country will exist 200 years from now if we continue on this path.

YouTube - Rush Limbaugh Responds To Jay-Z Song "Off That" Jay-Z Disses Him & Bill O'Reilly , skip to 1:01...
Alot of people believe that...


Taxes that i was referring to were last years and the year before that, not this year. You cannot afford to spend your money paying for your own medical care. 4500$ for a 20min MRI....i don't think so.

Healthcare costs have gotten out of control, at least in some instances. Getting the government more involved won't cut costs, they will only increase them based upon past performance.

[LightsChromeHorsepower]

GMAN-
“They get better healthcare than most of us. They also make more money than most of us. The reason is that we don't hold them accountable. Congress is supposed to work for the people. At this point the people work for congress. They fleece us for enough they can pay for their own healthcare.”

We elect them. If you want to hold them accountable quit voting for them.

GMAN-
“Government sponsored insurance already limits how may prescriptions they will pay for per month. That is not likely to change with the Obama healthcare system.”

Private insurance companies regularly refuse to pay for all kinds of treatments and therapies. Your point is?

GMAN-
“In my state there the state has taken over the federal medicaid program. It is called Tenncare. They limit name brand prescriptions to I believe 4 per month”

The same is true in all states. What is wrong with limiting prescriptions? Why shouldn't you use generics? My Kaiser coverage requires generics whenever possible. When I had surgery a couple of years ago Kaiser wouldn't cover the pain meds my doctor wanted to give me. I didn't find out until much later that there are a ton of other options I could have had that would have minimized my pain. I don't see how single-payer could have served me any more poorly.

GMAN-
“There are those who use the emergency room for their healthcare needs. Some are serious and others go there to be treated for a cold. I know since I have been in the emergency room on a number of occasions with my wife and experienced it first hand. Much of our current healthcare costs come from illegals going to our emergency rooms. I know this due to family members who work in healthcare. I have also seen this first hand as well as talking with healthcare workers while in the hospital with my wife. Illegals are on the verge of bankrupting many hospitals across this country. It should not be up to the U.S. government to provide healthcare to illegals. It is time for our politicians to find their backbone and do the right thing.”

We've already covered this. Please don't repeat yourself.

1.Illegals contribute far more than they consume by virtue of having taxes withheld from their incomes and then not being able to collect any refunds or benefits on what they have paid.

2.For what we spend on health care in this country, we should be able to offer stellar care to every person here, regardless of their immigration status.

3.All the European countries do the above, despite having much smaller populations over which to allocate the overall costs and risk. Why should they be that much better than us?

GMAN-
“I suppose you haven't been keeping up on what is going on in California. Part of the reason they are going bankrupt is due to all the illegals living off the system.”

I live in California. Our financial problems are far more complex in their origins than that. I will say that if all the illegals left California, the economy would stop and the entire nation would suffer an immediate food shortage.

GMAN-
“I have spoken to a number of Canadians about their healthcare. With rare exceptions most think it is great unless you are chronically ill or need a major surgical procedure. You may get it or not. And you don't have to take my word for it. Many have been interviewed on TV over the years and there are thousands who come to this country for surgical procedures each year. There are numerous stories that have been reported on the news.”

“The only ones that I have heard of going to Mexico or Thailand are doing so for their dentures or plastic surgery. There was a special on one of the news shows about it several months ago.”

U.S citizens are going overseas for health care to the tune of 40 BILLION dollars a year. That dwarfs any people from other countries who are coming here for the same reasons. You seem to keep harping on Canada. What about France, New Zealand or Switzerland for comparisons?

GMAN-
“As far as taxes and the Obama spending binge are concerned. If you think that this administration or any other for that matter, can increase the size of government without raising taxes then you are very naive and don't understand how the world works. Any time you add a bureaucracy such as the healthcare plan to our government you WILL increase taxes. According to some figures that I have read the Obama stimulus plan brings all the taxes up to about 60% of what we earn. The healthcare proposal will only increase taxes further. Simple logistics will tell you that when you add 40 or 50 million people's healthcare costs to the public budget you will need to raise taxes to pay for it. This country is on the verge of bankruptcy as it is. I have NEVER known of any government proposal to meet or be less than what was proposed. It is usually several times the estimate. They use lower estimates so that the American people will buy their tax program.”

We are talking about health care, not any economic stimulus plans here. Single payer health care, properly administered, would reduce overall health care costs in this country. It would do so by better allocating the risks involved and by taking away the obscene profits currently enjoyed by the insurance industry. Do you believe that we can continue to spend 16% of our GDP on health care and remain competitive in a global economy?

GMAN-
“It was a demonstration of what will happen with national healthcare. When the government throws on more taxes to business they pass that along to the consumer.”

You've been listening to too much talk radio.

GMAN-
“Healthcare is expensive. Nationalizing it is not the answer.”

“Those who have government healthcare are trying to get away from it because it is driving them into bankruptcy. Another government run agency is not the answer.”

“I am not sure every industralized nation has publicly funded health care. It is easy to spend less when you ration the care participants receive. I would also challenge you on your statement. You would need to put everything side by side on the cost side and pay with the same dollars. You would also need to consider the cost of living in those countries.”

“I am not sure it is working in every other industrialized nation. What proof do you have?”

1.Name a country with publicly funded health care that is trying to copy our system. None exists.

2.Health care is expensive. Nationalizing it is the only answer.

3.Name an industrialized nation that does not have publicly funded health care.

4.By any measurable standard we spend a far greater percentage of our GDP on health care than any other industrialized nation, and we get demonstrably inferior results. This seriously compromises our ability to compete in a global economy.

How much rhetorical mud do you have to throw before you notice it isn't sticking to the wall?

GMAN-
“One other thing that will reduce costs over night is to send all these illegals back to where they came. This one thing alone could reduce costs by many millions of dollars over night.”

Simple minds believe in simple solutions. If we sent all the illegal workers in this country home “overnight” our entire economy would freeze. I've answered this one above. We don't need to go through it again.


GMAN-
“Fixing the problem isn't complicated. All it takes is the will. When I was growing up most people went to their doctor and paid for their visit out of their own pocket. If they were given a prescription they went to the pharmacy, had it filled and paid for it out of their own pocket. You see, by having the government and insurance companies paying for doctor visits and prescriptions reduces competition and raises costs. If we all had to pay for our prescriptions we would see a dramatic decrease in prescription costs.”

“The polio vaccine was developed when I was growing up. I am sure it was quite expensive to develop. Much of the medical needs we have don't or should not involve million dollar diagnostic machines. Keep in mind that one reason some of these tests are performed is to protect the medical provider from litigation.”

When you were growing up, health care was almost absurdly simple as compared to what it is today. There were no multi-million dollar diagnostic machines, no medicines that cost billions of dollars to develop. New diseases have developed and the incidence of others has increased dramatically because of the many changes in how we live. If you want to go back to a 1950's standard of care you could get 1950's costs. You would also get 1950's mortality rates.

I'm sure that the Polio vaccine cost a small fraction of what todays complex, genetically engineered medicines cost. With the advent of nanotechnology it's only going to get worse. I also don't think that doctors prescribe super expensive treatments like chemo therapy to protect themselves from litigation. I think they do it because they want to save their patients lives.

[BanditsCousin]

My idea for a political forum was truly the worst post I ever made on CAD.

I'll admit it.

[LightsChromeHorsepower]

My idea for a political forum was truly the worst post I ever made on CAD.

I'll admit it.

Dude, this is fun.

[GMAN]

My idea for a political forum was truly the worst post I ever made on CAD.

I'll admit it.

Be careful for what you ask.

[GMAN]

GMAN-
“They get better healthcare than most of us. They also make more money than most of us. The reason is that we don't hold them accountable. Congress is supposed to work for the people. At this point the people work for congress. They fleece us for enough they can pay for their own healthcare.”

We elect them. If you want to hold them accountable quit voting for them.

GMAN-
“Government sponsored insurance already limits how may prescriptions they will pay for per month. That is not likely to change with the Obama healthcare system.”

Private insurance companies regularly refuse to pay for all kinds of treatments and therapies. Your point is?

GMAN-
“In my state there the state has taken over the federal medicaid program. It is called Tenncare. They limit name brand prescriptions to I believe 4 per month”

The same is true in all states. What is wrong with limiting prescriptions? Why shouldn't you use generics? My Kaiser coverage requires generics whenever possible. When I had surgery a couple of years ago Kaiser wouldn't cover the pain meds my doctor wanted to give me. I didn't find out until much later that there are a ton of other options I could have had that would have minimized my pain. I don't see how single-payer could have served me any more poorly.

GMAN-
“There are those who use the emergency room for their healthcare needs. Some are serious and others go there to be treated for a cold. I know since I have been in the emergency room on a number of occasions with my wife and experienced it first hand. Much of our current healthcare costs come from illegals going to our emergency rooms. I know this due to family members who work in healthcare. I have also seen this first hand as well as talking with healthcare workers while in the hospital with my wife. Illegals are on the verge of bankrupting many hospitals across this country. It should not be up to the U.S. government to provide healthcare to illegals. It is time for our politicians to find their backbone and do the right thing.”

We've already covered this. Please don't repeat yourself.

1.Illegals contribute far more than they consume by virtue of having taxes withheld from their incomes and then not being able to collect any refunds or benefits on what they have paid.

2.For what we spend on health care in this country, we should be able to offer stellar care to every person here, regardless of their immigration status.

3.All the European countries do the above, despite having much smaller populations over which to allocate the overall costs and risk. Why should they be that much better than us?

GMAN-
“I suppose you haven't been keeping up on what is going on in California. Part of the reason they are going bankrupt is due to all the illegals living off the system.”

I live in California. Our financial problems are far more complex in their origins than that. I will say that if all the illegals left California, the economy would stop and the entire nation would suffer an immediate food shortage.

GMAN-
“I have spoken to a number of Canadians about their healthcare. With rare exceptions most think it is great unless you are chronically ill or need a major surgical procedure. You may get it or not. And you don't have to take my word for it. Many have been interviewed on TV over the years and there are thousands who come to this country for surgical procedures each year. There are numerous stories that have been reported on the news.”

“The only ones that I have heard of going to Mexico or Thailand are doing so for their dentures or plastic surgery. There was a special on one of the news shows about it several months ago.”

U.S citizens are going overseas for health care to the tune of 40 BILLION dollars a year. That dwarfs any people from other countries who are coming here for the same reasons. You seem to keep harping on Canada. What about France, New Zealand or Switzerland for comparisons?

GMAN-
“As far as taxes and the Obama spending binge are concerned. If you think that this administration or any other for that matter, can increase the size of government without raising taxes then you are very naive and don't understand how the world works. Any time you add a bureaucracy such as the healthcare plan to our government you WILL increase taxes. According to some figures that I have read the Obama stimulus plan brings all the taxes up to about 60% of what we earn. The healthcare proposal will only increase taxes further. Simple logistics will tell you that when you add 40 or 50 million people's healthcare costs to the public budget you will need to raise taxes to pay for it. This country is on the verge of bankruptcy as it is. I have NEVER known of any government proposal to meet or be less than what was proposed. It is usually several times the estimate. They use lower estimates so that the American people will buy their tax program.”

We are talking about health care, not any economic stimulus plans here. Single payer health care, properly administered, would reduce overall health care costs in this country. It would do so by better allocating the risks involved and by taking away the obscene profits currently enjoyed by the insurance industry. Do you believe that we can continue to spend 16% of our GDP on health care and remain competitive in a global economy?

GMAN-
“It was a demonstration of what will happen with national healthcare. When the government throws on more taxes to business they pass that along to the consumer.”

You've been listening to too much talk radio.

GMAN-
“Healthcare is expensive. Nationalizing it is not the answer.”

“Those who have government healthcare are trying to get away from it because it is driving them into bankruptcy. Another government run agency is not the answer.”

“I am not sure every industrialized nation has publicly funded health care. It is easy to spend less when you ration the care participants receive. I would also challenge you on your statement. You would need to put everything side by side on the cost side and pay with the same dollars. You would also need to consider the cost of living in those countries.”

“I am not sure it is working in every other industrialized nation. What proof do you have?”

1.Name a country with publicly funded health care that is trying to copy our system. None exists.

2.Health care is expensive. Nationalizing it is the only answer.

3.Name an industrialized nation that does not have publicly funded health care.

4.By any measurable standard we spend a far greater percentage of our GDP on health care than any other industrialized nation, and we get demonstrably inferior results. This seriously compromises our ability to compete in a global economy.

How much rhetorical mud do you have to throw before you notice it isn't sticking to the wall?

GMAN-
“One other thing that will reduce costs over night is to send all these illegals back to where they came. This one thing alone could reduce costs by many millions of dollars over night.”

Simple minds believe in simple solutions. If we sent all the illegal workers in this country home “overnight” our entire economy would freeze. I've answered this one above. We don't need to go through it again.


GMAN-
“Fixing the problem isn't complicated. All it takes is the will. When I was growing up most people went to their doctor and paid for their visit out of their own pocket. If they were given a prescription they went to the pharmacy, had it filled and paid for it out of their own pocket. You see, by having the government and insurance companies paying for doctor visits and prescriptions reduces competition and raises costs. If we all had to pay for our prescriptions we would see a dramatic decrease in prescription costs.”

“The polio vaccine was developed when I was growing up. I am sure it was quite expensive to develop. Much of the medical needs we have don't or should not involve million dollar diagnostic machines. Keep in mind that one reason some of these tests are performed is to protect the medical provider from litigation.”

When you were growing up, health care was almost absurdly simple as compared to what it is today. There were no multi-million dollar diagnostic machines, no medicines that cost billions of dollars to develop. New diseases have developed and the incidence of others has increased dramatically because of the many changes in how we live. If you want to go back to a 1950's standard of care you could get 1950's costs. You would also get 1950's mortality rates.

I'm sure that the Polio vaccine cost a small fraction of what todays complex, genetically engineered medicines cost. With the advent of nanotechnology it's only going to get worse. I also don't think that doctors prescribe super expensive treatments like chemo therapy to protect themselves from litigation. I think they do it because they want to save their patients lives.

Where to start?!! I don't vote for these mental amoeba's. All these politicians seem to want to do is line their pockets at the expense of the rest of us. They also don't seem to understand how to read the constitution.

I understand that insurance companies also limit procedures as does the government. Some drugs are only available in name brand but most of these government programs do limit the number of prescriptions whether they are generic or name brand. In your scenario you would exchange obscene insurance profits with obscene government taxes?

You quote some figures about GNP and healthcare in other countries. I don't see any proof. I talk about Canada since that is the only country where I have actually visited and spoken with the those who must deal with the healthcare system. And I don't recall having spoken to anyone who has gone abroad to receive healthcare other than dental work in Mexico at some of the border towns.

Don't minimize the cost or effects of polio on our population in years past. It usually hit children and either killed or crippled them. It was as bad as anything we have today. And if you factor in inflation I dare say that you would have spent as much as any other research or development for an effective vaccine. By the way, Franklin D. Roosevelt was struck by polio and was in a wheel chair during his presidency.

Most problems are simple. It is people who try to make them complex. It evidently makes them feel better to complicate problems. This country got along very well for more than 200 years without government heathcare and over 150 years without welfare. The result is a generation who expects the government to take care of their every need. The net result is several generations of non productive individuals who live for their government paycheck in their government subsidized housing. There is no need to work since the government will pay them to sit at home.

There were advantages to 1950's healthcare. For the most part people were pretty healthy. You didn't see the obesity we currently see in our country. It seems that the more complex people want to make healthcare the higher the costs. It doesn't have to be that way. The real cost issues have not been addressed. Government and litigation are the two major contributors to high costs of medical care. I noticed you prefer skipping over those issues.

I know very well some of the issues in California. I lived there during the Reagan administration. The state has steadily gone downhill since that time. California is a model of how NOT to run a government. They keep making the same mistakes over and over. Arnold Schwarzenegger was the one who mentioned the costs of having illegals in the state and the cost of them using emergency rooms, etc., at state expense. In case you missed it, he is the governor of California. California keeps putting more and more taxes and spending more and more money on things that they have no business doing and they wonder why they are in trouble. That is what happens when you buy votes. At some point you run out of money. It is what happens when you have more people living off the government than working to support the government. About the only difference in what is happening in California and the federal government is that the feds have printing presses to print more money. In case you went to public schools you may have missed some of the events that have happened in the world. Socialism doesn't work. It has failed in EVERY country in which it has been tried. Those who have tried it have their own version which they try to convince themselves that their system will work. IT HASN'T. Socialism has an inherent flaw. It takes the incentive to produce out of the picture. This country was built on self determination an freedom. Whether it is socialized banking, cars or healthcare, it will not work. I remember seeing some of the cars made in the old USSR and some of the other communist countries. Some people like to call them socialist countries. Poor quality and all black. Healthcare will be the same. Poor quality high cost to the taxpayers. Of course, those who are living off the current system won't need to pay anything since those of us who do work will be supporting those who don't. By the way, I also remember seeing breadlines and limited store items under socialism in some of these countries you tout with such great healthcare. This will not stop at healthcare. We can expect to have people who have no experience in healthcare or business to run these new bureaucracies.

[Ridge Runner]

I LOVE IT !!!!! You can't get this on FOX or MSNBC. Real, honest people that have different perspectives on an issue. Both pushing their view in a well thought out way. I have learned soooooo....much from BOTH sides. Gives me food for thought. And you didn't have to attack each other to do so. Please continue.


Ridge

[BanditsCousin]

This is a pretty civil discussion, and although I may not have much to add, it is interesting to see peoples' different points of view expressed rationally.