Thinking generator- many watts to run block heater?

[mike3fan]

Mike, what does the DOT think of your gas cans? Imagine a DOT inspection, gas can full, hauling flammable liquid. Is that a really crummy day!?

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I don't carry around a full gas can,I only use it to fill the generator if I can't get next to a gas pump.

I am waiting for my next inspection to ask questions on some of these issues. I sure can't find anything about it in the little green book.

[Flatbed]

I don't carry around a full gas can,I only use it to fill the generator if I can't get next to a gas pump.

I am waiting for my next inspection to ask questions on some of these issues. I sure can't find anything about it in the little green book.

Here's the regulations about having gasoline and other 'fuels' on a truck:

§392.51 Reserve fuel; materials of trade.

Small amounts of fuel for the operation or maintenance of a commercial motor vehicle (including its auxiliary equipment) may be designated as materials of trade (see 49 CFR 171.8).

(a) The aggregate gross weight of all materials of trade on a motor vehicle may not exceed 200 kg (440 pounds).

(b) Packaging for gasoline must be made of metal or plastic and conform to requirements of 49 CFR Parts 171, 172, 173, and 178 or requirements of the Occupational Safety and Health Administration contained in 29 CFR 1910.106.

(c) For Packing Group II (including gasoline), Packing Group III (including aviation fuel and fuel oil), or ORM-D, the material is limited to 30 kg (66 pounds) or 30 L (8 gallons).

(d) For diesel fuel, the capacity of the package is limited to 450 L (119 gallons).

(e) A Division 2.1 material in a cylinder is limited to a gross weight of 100 kg (220 pounds). (A Division 2.1 material is a flammable gas, including liquefied petroleum gas, butane, propane, liquefied natural gas, and methane).

[dobry4u]

I don't carry around a full gas can,I only use it to fill the generator if I can't get next to a gas pump.

I am waiting for my next inspection to ask questions on some of these issues. I sure can't find anything about it in the little green book.

I am thinking the Rev is the resident expert on flammables .. I am sure he could give some insight here

[Rev.Vassago]

I don't carry around a full gas can,I only use it to fill the generator if I can't get next to a gas pump.

I am waiting for my next inspection to ask questions on some of these issues. I sure can't find anything about it in the little green book.

As long as you are emptying the can, and it is secured to the vehicle in a "workmanlike manner", you are okay. If you are throwing it in your side box, then you may have an issue.

[mike3fan]

As long as you are emptying the can, and it is secured to the vehicle in a "workmanlike manner", you are okay. If you are throwing it in your side box, then you may have an issue.

the generator or the gas can?

[Rev.Vassago]

the generator or the gas can?

The gas can. As long as the generator is mounted securely and not full to the brim with gas, it shouldn't be a problem.

[lowrange]

Here's the regulations about having gasoline and other 'fuels' on a truck:

§392.51 Reserve fuel; materials of trade.

Small amounts of fuel for the operation or maintenance of a commercial motor vehicle (including its auxiliary equipment) may be designated as materials of trade (see 49 CFR 171.8).

(a) The aggregate gross weight of all materials of trade on a motor vehicle may not exceed 200 kg (440 pounds).

(b) Packaging for gasoline must be made of metal or plastic and conform to requirements of 49 CFR Parts 171, 172, 173, and 178 or requirements of the Occupational Safety and Health Administration contained in 29 CFR 1910.106.

(c) For Packing Group II (including gasoline), Packing Group III (including aviation fuel and fuel oil), or ORM-D, the material is limited to 30 kg (66 pounds) or 30 L (8 gallons).

(d) For diesel fuel, the capacity of the package is limited to 450 L (119 gallons).

(e) A Division 2.1 material in a cylinder is limited to a gross weight of 100 kg (220 pounds). (A Division 2.1 material is a flammable gas, including liquefied petroleum gas, butane, propane, liquefied natural gas, and methane).

That's a really good start! I wonder what those packaging regs say?

Then there is the matter of securement. Bungee cords to hold everything down?

[Flatbed]

That's a really good start! I wonder what those packaging regs say?

Then there is the matter of securement. Bungee cords to hold everything down?

I'm not finding anything about securement though I'm sure it's buried in the regulations somewhere. As Rev said earlier, secure it (both gen set and gas can) in a workmanlike manner and be prepared to talk to Mr. DOT about why you did it how you did it if you get asked about it.

Packaging regs, the sections that matter anyway:

Sections 171 and 172 talk about haz-mat and the various requirements for packaging the different hazard classes. I didn't paste the hazard table here since it's so friggen huge. If you go look, pay attention to the quantity requirements and you'll find no problem with carrying 5 gallons of gas in an approved container.

PART 171--GENERAL INFORMATION, REGULATIONS, AND DEFINITIONS--Table of Contents
Sec. 171.1 Purpose and scope.
(a) This subchapter prescribes requirements of the Department of
Transportation governing--
(1) The offering of hazardous materials for transportation and
transportation of hazardous materials in interstate, intrastate, and
foreign commerce by rail car, aircraft, motor vehicle, and vessel

PART 172--HAZARDOUS MATERIALS TABLE, SPECIAL PROVISIONS, HAZARDOUS MATERIALS COMMUNICATIONS, EMERGENCY RESPONSE INFORMATION, AND TRAINING REQUIREMENTS--Table of Contents

Sec. 172.1 Purpose and scope.

This part lists and classifies those materials which the Department of Transportation has designated as hazardous materials for purposes of transportation and prescribes the requirements for shipping papers, package marking, labeling, and transport vehicle placarding applicable to the shipment and transportation of those hazardous materials.

Sec. 172.101 Purpose and use of hazardous materials table.

(a) The Hazardous Materials Table (Table) in this section designates
the materials listed therein as hazardous materials for the purpose of
transportation of those materials. For each listed material, the Table
identifies the hazard class or specifies that the material is forbidden
in transportation, and gives the proper shipping name or directs the user to the preferred proper shipping name. In addition, the Table specifies or references requirements in this subchapter pertaining to labeling, packaging, quantity limits aboard aircraft and stowage of hazardous materials aboard vessels.

Then we get to section 173 which defines 'materials of trade'. This is where there is specific allowance to carry gasoline for your generator.

PART 173--SHIPPERS--GENERAL REQUIREMENTS FOR SHIPMENTS AND PACKAGINGS--Table of Contents

Sec. 173.6 Materials of trade exceptions.

When transported by motor vehicle in conformance with this section,
a material of trade (see Sec. 171.8 of this subchapter) is not subject
to any other requirements of this subchapter besides those set forth or
referenced in this section.
(a) Materials and amounts. A material of trade is limited to the
following:
(1) A Class 3, 8, 9, Division 4.1, 5.1, 5.2, 6.1, or ORM-D material
contained in a packaging having a gross mass or capacity not over--
(i) 0.5 kg (1 pound) or 0.5 L (1 pint) for a Packing Group I
material;
(ii) 30 kg (66 pounds) or 30 L (8 gallons) for a Packing Group II,
Packing Group III, or ORM-D material;

(4) For gasoline, a packaging must be made of metal or plastic and
conform to the requirements of this subchapter or to the requirements of
the Occupational Safety and Health Administration of the Department of
Labor contained in 29 CFR 1910.106(d)(2)

The definition of 'materials of trade'

Part 171.8

Material of trade means a hazardous material, other than a hazardous
waste, that is carried on a motor vehicle--
(1) For the purpose of protecting the health and safety of the motor
vehicle operator or passengers;
(2) For the purpose of supporting the operation or maintenance of a
motor vehicle (including its auxiliary equipment); or
(3) By a private motor carrier (including vehicles operated by a
rail carrier) in direct support of a principal business that is other than transportation by motor vehicle.

PART 178--SPECIFICATIONS FOR PACKAGINGS--Table of Contents

Subpart L--Non-bulk Performance-Oriented Packaging Standards

1) The packaging must be manufactured from suitable material and be of adequate strength in relation to its capacity and intended use.

(6) Closure devices for removable head drums and jerricans must be
so designed and applied that they remain secure and leakproof under
normal conditions of transport. Gaskets must be used with all removable
heads unless the drum or jerrican design is such that when the removable head is properly secured, the drum or jerrican is inherently leakproof.

OR requirements of the Occupational Safety and Health Administration contained in 29 CFR 1910.106.

1910.106(a)(9)

Closed container shall mean a container as herein defined, so sealed by means of a lid or other device that neither liquid nor vapor will escape from it at ordinary temperatures.

1910.106(a)(32)

Storage: Flammable or combustible liquids shall be stored in a tank or in a container that complies with paragraph (d)(2) of this section.

1910.106(a)(34)

Container shall mean any can, barrel, or drum.

1910.106(d)(2)(i)

"General." Only approved containers and portable tanks shall be used. Metal containers and portable tanks meeting the requirements of and containing products authorized by chapter I, title 49 of the Code of Federal Regulations (regulations issued by the Hazardous Materials Regulations Board, Department of Transportation), shall be deemed to be acceptable.

It's all kinds of fun trying to chase down all the cross referenced regulations and then figure out what they apply to and don't apply to.

I'm no lawyer and I don't even play one on the CB, but as far as I can tell these regs all work together to specifically allow a driver to carry gasoline on the truck along with a generator without getting into trouble for it.

[Rev.Vassago]

I'm not finding anything about securement though I'm sure it's buried in the regulations somewhere.

Subpart E—Fuel systems
§393.65 All fuel systems.

(c) Fuel tank installation. Each fuel tank must be securely attached to the motor vehicle in a workmanlike manner.
(d) Gravity or syphon feed prohibited. A fuel system must not supply fuel by gravity or syphon feed directly to the carburetor or injector.

and

§393.67 Liquid fuel tanks.

(a) Application of the rules in this section. The rules in this section apply to tanks containing or supplying fuel for the operation of commercial motor vehicles or for the operation of auxiliary equipment installed on, or used in connection with commercial motor vehicles.

(c)(10) Air vent. Each fuel tank must be equipped with a non-spill air vent (such as a ball check). The air vent may be combined with the fill-pipe cap or safety vent, or it may be a separate unit installed on the fuel tank. (this would prevent you from keeping gasoline in a plastic container, as they have no "ball check" type air vent)

I'm no lawyer and I don't even play one on the CB, but as far as I can tell these regs all work together to specifically allow a driver to carry gasoline on the truck along with a generator without getting into trouble for it.

Except for the fact that gravity fed systems (which I believe all gasoline generators are), are prohibited.

[Flatbed]

I just love it when regulations are in disagreement with each other.

On one hand there are regs that allow materials of trade.

Then other regs that disallow the same, or so it seems.

I've had a gas powered Honda on my truck for over a year, I keep it in a box on the trailer when not in use. I keep the gas can full and secured in the chain rack on the headache rack (plastic 5 gallon). I've had two level one inspections, one in California and the other in Texas, and have been through countless weigh stations with it like this and nobody has ever said a word.

[Rev.Vassago]

I just love it when regulations are in disagreement with each other.

On one hand there are regs that allow materials of trade.

Then other regs that disallow the same, or so it seems.

Neither reg disallows materials of trade. One simply dictates what type of container they must be in, and for good reason. After all, if they don't dictate what you are hauling gasoline in, what would stop you from using 1 gallon water jugs, or some other type of container?

There is a good reason that they require gasoline to be in a vented container with a ball check type valve. When gasoline is agitated, or the temperature rises, it expands, and releases vapor. Such vapor will cause a plastic gas can to "bubble out", as the pressure rises inside it. Ever open a gas cap, and hear pressure release? It's the exact same thing.

As a former HHG driver, we were required, per the very regulation that I stated, to drain any and all gas cans we hauled as part of a manifested shipment, as the can itself does not meet FMCSA regulations for transporting a hazardous material. Furthermore, we were required to drain any and all gasoline engines with gravity fed tanks of fuel prior to transport, as such engines do not meet FMCSA regulations for transporting hazardous material.

I've had a gas powered Honda on my truck for over a year, I keep it in a box on the trailer when not in use. I keep the gas can full and secured in the chain rack on the headache rack (plastic 5 gallon). I've had two level one inspections, one in California and the other in Texas, and have been through countless weigh stations with it like this and nobody has ever said a word.

"Nobody has ever said a word" is a common, and very poor, reasoning for violating the law. I remember a certain individual coming here and stating that the local DOT officers told him that as a one truck owner operator, he didn't need to submit to random drug testing, even though the FMCSA regulations state otherwise.

During my time as a HHG driver, I was subjected to several DOT inspections. None of them questioned, or even looked for, anything to do with gas cans or gravity fed systems. But had the question arisen, I would have been in compliance.

All it takes is one DOT officer to actually know the regulations that he is enforcing, and suddenly you've got a mess on your hands.

[Maniac]

I'm thinking, a small gas generator

DO NOT get caught with a gasoline powered anything on a flammable placarded tanker. Running or not, it's NOT allowed!

All it takes is one DOT officer to actually know the regulations that he is enforcing, and suddenly you've got a mess on your hands.

Even if he doesn't know them, if he don't like it or thinks it's questionable, the DOT man ALWAYS wins ! ! !

[Rev.Vassago]

Even if he doesn't know them, if he don't like it or thinks it's questionable, the DOT man ALWAYS wins ! ! !

That's the neat thing about the DOT. If they want to find something bad enough, they will. No sense in making it any easier for them.

I'm sure nobody would like leaving their generator sitting at the scale because DOT said it wasn't allowed on a CMV. Personally, if they ever complain about mine, I'll drain the gas out of it, and leave the gas at the scale. They can't cite me if the generator is empty.

[Maniac]

That's the neat thing about the DOT

Ya ever notice how the guy with the badge ALWAYS wins................the real FUNNY thing is how many will argue with the badge, like its gonna change the outcome.

[catalinaflyer]

I'm thinking I'll go with the EU2000i. It's less than half the weight of the 3000 and still has the DC charging circuit for the batteries as well as enough power to operate the TV, computer and coffee maker. I'm a company driver but just the security of having the ability to get myself started when I'm 200 miles from civilization on a job site is worth the $1,000 price tag. I have a 3500w Craftsman generator at home but that thing is well over 100# and is so friggen loud that my neighbors would scream at me with that thing running all night not to mention the need for an additional battery charger. I seen a guy last summer who was a company driver and he was running a 2000i and even had a small window air conditioner hanging out of his passenger window. The AC unit was louder than the generator and it was still quite enough to stand next to while visiting. He claimed that the money he made on his idling bonuses each month pays for the setup.

I already have the Webasto bunk heater and the engine pre-heater but during the winter months I rarely get south of I-94 and as a result still wind up having to idle a bunch just to keep the batteries charged. We often wind up out on wind farms that are miles from civilization and even though I have a 2000w inverter the generator would be nice.

As for transporting gas, our big trailers have a Honda engine on both ends for the hydraulic systems and we transport 2 - 5gal gas cans on each trailer and the engines themselves each have a 10 gallon tank so that's a total of 30 gallons of gas and the DOT has never said one word about it.

EDIT - I guess I should have read the second page before jumping in. On our trailers the fuel system for the engines is essentially a boat style plastic tank that has a pump going to the carb. I'm not sure of the venting system as it is contained within a plastic housing on the tank itself. As for the gas cans, they are carried in a rack in the belly of the back trailer and are usually empty (we send them with the pilot cars each morning to top off the tanks). The DOT has looked at these trailer very closely (they usually do when you roll up on a scale at 212,000# and 178' long) and as far as I know none of the drivers have been questioned about the gas situation.

My trian of though, mount the generator to the deck plate with a couple of 1" straps (bungies are not allowed for load securement as per the DOT regulations and they will write tickets for it) put the fitted cover on it and keep a 2 1/2 gallon can EMPTY in the headache rack or on the deck plate next to the generator and as near as I can tell from the regulations your going to be in compliance. Now, once you cross the line into California all bets are off. Just make sure to use the little ratchet straps for everything. I used to work at Lonestar and they would write drivers up for having thier bar-b-que grill bungied to the deck plate so we all bought the 8 packs of 1" ratchet straps from Harbor Freight and eliminated the hassle.

[Rev.Vassago]

so that's a total of 30 gallons of gas and the DOT has never said one word about it.

I'm very surprised. The regs are very clear that anything about 8 gallons needs to be placarded.

[chris1]

Wouldn't each unit(s) be restricted to 8 gal ? 2 motors,2 seperate units? Long time since i was around long/heavy loads.

[mike3fan]

DO NOT get caught with a gasoline powered anything on a flammable placarded tanker. Running or not, it's NOT allowed!!

I don't disagree, but where is the regulation to support this? I sure can't find anything to support this claim. After we talked about this on the phone I checked extensively for something that would show that it can't be done, but I can't find it.

[Rev.Vassago]

Wouldn't each unit(s) be restricted to 8 gal ? 2 motors,2 seperate units? Long time since i was around long/heavy loads.

No, the CMV is what is restricted to 8 gallons, not the generators. 1 CMV = 8 gallons.

[chris1]

motor for RGN is one unit
motor for stinger is another unit ect.
you're faster than me looking it up.gives you something to do.