K...what am I missing?

[coastie]

You see coastie. When deciding whether or not to be an o/o you can't just ask other people who've done it. It's not the same as shopping around for what companies you want to be a company driver for.

If you and I both started at the same company at the same time, both bought the same trucks, had the same amount of cash in the bank. One of us might fail miserably and the other do great. It's all about decisions. Should you take this light load over to UT where there's not alot of freight coming out or should you take this heavy load over to Atlanta where freight is plentiful.

.

Well thanks Prodigy. You brought up something I was trying to say in some of my earlier posts.

The purpose of the trail runs I was making to find the areas where frieght are plentiful and to see what types of freight plentiful and where at. The deading was a side note.. And it turns out in the area I want to run they are very much plentiful least for now in all 3 types, Flats, Dry and reefers. They will be 800 to 1500 miles out and then doing it again back. Mega loads from 100 mile radus of home. That to include Atlanta, Augusta, Ga, Athens, Ga, Anderson SC, Greenville SC, and Spartenburg, SC. That not adding all the small towns inbetween. Last week just in my home town they had listed 7 loads. 1 Reefer, 2 Dry Vans and 4 Flatbeds. Rates maybe a different Story. Some I seen what they pay and would not touch them, and they also have mega short hauls. but most I would have to deadhead as much I hauled loaded miles, so not worth my time and efferts. Example one load abbieville SC to Washington, Ga 40 miles deadhead, 33 mile loaded run. And they want it tarped? If I was bored and just wanted to do it for fun fine, but not as a living.. My goal is not deadhead further than 100 miles to pick up a load that is at or near 1000 miles or more.. Closer if I can.

[DD60]

I wasn't trying to call anyone names,though I can bring up a post by the GCD that did. It doesn't take an accountant to see the numbers and how they don't add up to a reasonable profit for the time you put into your "Business". Let's run the numbers down on an annual basis,shall we?These are estimates:



truck payment=14k
insurance=3k
maintenance=10k(15k if needing overhaul)
FUEL=55k
Misc road expenses(i.e. meals,supplies)10k

Based on 100k miles a year that comes to 92k if there is no overhaul or transmission work. At 1.20 a mile the profit is around 22-28k before taxes. 37-40k at 120k miles before taxes. Maybe less. To average 120k miles a year you would have to drive 10k miles a month during ALL seasons with no vacation unless your truck never breaks down and you have a dispatcher that loves you. I doubt the fuel surcharge is .30cpm anyway,so in actuality we are looking at 1.17cpm. To top it off there are no medical or other benefits,which proves 1.17cpm is not worth an O/Os time considering putting up with the headaches of owning and operating a truck. Im not trying to ridicule or talk down to anyone.Just giving a heads up that even though a megacarrier pays for all plates and permits their program is not designed to benefit an O/O and you have to rely on a dispatcher to give you the miles. In other words,YOU are dealing with all the expenses and headaches while THEY control how many miles you get.

Prodigy, isn't that the father in the Brady Bunch in your avatar?

Anybody care to break down the .90 CPM operating expense??? I think that's ridiculously high.

And no_worries, I'll respond to your flame later, got work to do. I'm not some fat, naked lard-azz sitting at his puter at home waiting for a response on this message board so I can troll him some more, know what I'm saying? As far as credibility, Like I said before, I have nothing to prove to anybody on here, I'll be happy to post my end of year numbers in Feb '08 if anybody cares.

In fact, I know Solo and I both run nicer equipment than you do.

That's cool. My truck is pretty dang nice I get compliments on it all the time, drivers can't believe it's an '03.

I may just decide to hold onto it until it dies. There's no EGR crap on it and it runs great for having 611k on it. You guys can have your brand new petes and KW's and I'll be that guy with the ok looking but well maintained truck that's paid off.

[Cam]

I wasn't trying to call anyone names,though I can bring up a post by the GCD that did. It doesn't take an accountant to see the numbers and how they don't add up to a reasonable profit for the time you put into your "Business". Let's run the numbers down on an annual basis,shall we?These are estimates:



truck payment=14k
insurance=3k
maintenance=10k(15k if needing overhaul)
FUEL=55k
Misc road expenses(i.e. meals,supplies)10k

Based on 100k miles a year that comes to 92k if there is no overhaul or transmission work. At 1.20 a mile the profit is around 22-28k before taxes. 37-40k at 120k miles before taxes. Maybe less. To average 120k miles a year you would have to drive 10k miles a month during ALL seasons with no vacation unless your truck never breaks down and you have a dispatcher that loves you. I doubt the fuel surcharge is .30cpm anyway,so in actuality we are looking at 1.17cpm. To top it off there are no medical or other benefits,which proves 1.17cpm is not worth an O/Os time considering putting up with the headaches of owning and operating a truck. Im not trying to ridicule or talk down to anyone.Just giving a heads up that even though a megacarrier pays for all plates and permits their program is not designed to benefit an O/O and you have to rely on a dispatcher to give you the miles. In other words,YOU are dealing with all the expenses and headaches while THEY control how many miles you get.

I don't want to offend, I just want this guy to make it if he can. I'm a newb myself. I just have a very honest question for you, how do you account for all the long time O/Os at Dart. Schneider or whoever, some of these are easy targets as everybody is happy to pick on them. That's why I say Dart because these too are our boys, right? I never went to OOIDA message board so I don't know if they get along over there. Do you think the O/Os at Dart are fools?

I am glad you gave us actual numbers though. When someone else is just giving you your loads and paying your deadhead, 10,000 paid miles a month is not hard. He's paying off his truck, he ought to quit taking so much time off and run that 120,000 paid miles until he owns it.

$55,000 on 100k paid miles, that comes out to 5.2 mpg with $2.86/gal fuel (that's a high average but not if we are talking a 30cpm fsc). They are most likely shorting him 8% on the miles. There will be out of route miles if just to get back to the house. I still wonder if he can lower that fuel cost- extra miles and idling v. higher mpg and fuel discounts

Everybody has to buy food. Can we trim down the 10k in incidentals?

He may not be making more than a company driver but he can have a little more freedom. One of the worst things about being a company driver is the companies pushing you to go, go, go, live to drive so that they can get as much as they can out of their investment in your equipment. Particularly when he gets the truck paid off, this will afford him a better lifestyle. Then too, like me, he can think about repositioning himself for a percentage job or chemical tankers :wink: perhaps even then he could run his own authority. I'll let you and Solo fight it out about what is better.

Going back to Dart, though? All failures? :?

[GMAN]

The extra costs of having your own authority are roughly around 20-25k more a year than leasing with a megacarrier paying 1.20 a mile. Even if you average 1.60 a mile for all miles you will still be 15-20k ahead,will you not?

I am not sure where you came up with those operating costs of running your own authority, but I spend $3,955 per truck for cargo and liability insurance. About $1,200/yr. for a business telephone. And I spend $720/yr on load boards. The insurance and telephone are the only other expenses I have that I didn't have when I was leased to my last carrier. I still subscribed to the load boards. If someone has limited experience, they would likely pay more for their insurance than I do, but other than that I don't see a huge cost in out of pocket expenses. When I leased to a carrier, I paid my own IFTA or fuel tax, base plates and permits. If you lease to a carrier who pays mileage you may have those costs paid by the carrier, but only make $0.90/mile. From that point to having your own authority is a huge gap in earnings potential. Whether you earn more with your own authority has more to do with your management skills as driving a truck. If you are not a good manager or prefer someone else to do your planning, you may be more successful leasing to a carrier who dispatches and/or plans for you.

I was referring mainly to startup costs when you first get your authority with limited experience. Insurance can be around 10-12k a year and then you have the trailer purchase and maintenance,which can be another 10-15k.

I am sorry if I came on a bit strong on this post. I purchased my trailer while leased to a carrier. I didn't consider that in my numbers since it is not part of running my own authority. I only posted those numbers that were in addition to what I paid while leasing to a carrier. I paid my own base plates and permits, equipment, maintenance, etc., The only other expenses I incurred running my own authority were for insurance and telephone. You are correct about your insurance running higher if you have limited experience. The more experience you have the lower your rates are likely to run. If you consider the cost of a trailer, you are probably correct with your numbers for the first year, providing you pay cash for your trailer.

[GMAN]

GMAN, I don't think DD60's numbers are that far off when comparing a typical lease to a megacarrier to one's own authority. My insurance ran $6-7000 more. Plates and permits were approximately $3400. Loadboards and credit service $1200. Cell and internet are $1800. Postage and fax are $500. My trailer runs me about $.12/mile. Granted that's a reefer and some of those costs will vary a little depending on location, but not much.

No_worriers, you are probably correct if you consider the cost of buying a trailer. I was basing my statements on already having a trailer since I bought my own trailer while leased to a carrier. Some carrier's require owner operators to furnish their own trailers. Some do not. An owner operator can usually make more money if they have their own trailer. I think when you mentioned "mega-carrier" you are probably talking about some who pay mileage and furnish a trailer for the owner operator to pull.

I got my cell phone and Internet service while I was still leased to a carrier. I also subscribed to load boards while still leased since I brokered some of my own loads while leased. The carrier I was leased to at the time would allow owner operators to get their own loads if they didn't have anything in the area. At the time, I mostly ran the West coast and they only had one agent in California. If they didn't have something either they brokered a load or I did.

Other than equipment, insurance is the largest single expense most of us have when we run our own authority. If we consider the cost of purchasing a trailer with the initial start up costs, then DD60's costs are much closer to actual numbers, depending on the type and age of your trailer.

No_worries, I am curious as to where you buy your base plates and permits. They seem unusually high. With single state (which we no longer use) and base plates, etc., I pay about $1,700 for 48 states. My base plates, by themselves, run just over $1,400 per truck.

[no_worries]

CA :evil: Actually, that does include a first-year charge to register in CA since I was plated in a different state prior. But since we were talking about the costs associated with making the switch, I thought it was relevant. Also, that doesn't include SSR, that's my total for this year. And you're right, I was considering "megacarrier" to mean the SNI's, Dart's, Werner's, of the world. I know a bit about your background GMAN, and your lease history is not what I would consider the norm. Though it is much better. I too had my cell service and internet while I was leased, but I didn't need it to do the job, therefore I don't classify it as a business expense at that time. Those are must-haves with your own authority so I reclassified.

Cam, what I was driving at was a personal balance sheet, or net worth statement. If you have one from the end of one year to the end of the next and compare the two, that will give you the best evaluation of your performance. After all, the goal is to better your lot in life. However, that's only half the picture. You also need to compare it to how you would have done as a company driver. Remember, any up-front money you spend could be invested earning a decent return. You have to evaluate the opportunity costs to get a clear picture. You may very well increase your net worth by $50,000 and that may sound good to you. But what if you would have done the same as a company driver? Does that change your analysis? And that brings us to the O/O's at Schneider, et al. Most lease-ops there are making right around the same money they'd be making as company drivers. They're in no danger of going under. But, if after paying a market salary a business makes no profit, how successful is it? For many people having the sense of freedom or the sense of ownership they get from their truck more than outweighs the fact that all they're doing is buying a job. That's perfectly alright...but it's not good business.

[Cam]

CA :evil: Actually, that does include a first-year charge to register in CA since I was plated in a different state prior. But since we were talking about the costs associated with making the switch, I thought it was relevant. Also, that doesn't include SSR, that's my total for this year. And you're right, I was considering "megacarrier" to mean the SNI's, Dart's, Werner's, of the world. I know a bit about your background GMAN, and your lease history is not what I would consider the norm. Though it is much better. I too had my cell service and internet while I was leased, but I didn't need it to do the job, therefore I don't classify it as a business expense at that time. Those are must-haves with your own authority so I reclassified.

Cam, what I was driving at was a personal balance sheet, or net worth statement. If you have one from the end of one year to the end of the next and compare the two, that will give you the best evaluation of your performance. After all, the goal is to better your lot in life. However, that's only half the picture. You also need to compare it to how you would have done as a company driver. Remember, any up-front money you spend could be invested earning a decent return. You have to evaluate the opportunity costs to get a clear picture. You may very well increase your net worth by $50,000 and that may sound good to you. But what if you would have done the same as a company driver? Does that change your analysis? And that brings us to the O/O's at Schneider, et al. Most lease-ops there are making right around the same money they'd be making as company drivers. They're in no danger of going under. But, if after paying a market salary a business makes no profit, how successful is it? For many people having the sense of freedom or the sense of ownership they get from their truck more than outweighs the fact that all they're doing is buying a job. That's perfectly alright...but it's not good business.

Ok, so you did mean 'balance sheet'. No quarrels. I just don't want to make things sound more complicated than they are. It's good to work all that out with an accountant and he seems to be doing that. But, this is no big conglomeration, a lot of it he'll be able to keep in his head until such time as he has done enough to have some real numbers he can work with.

This was my experience as a company driver. You start the new job and away you go, money, money, money. Man, that gets old. The time away from the house, the go, go, go. You haven't delivered and the next load is waiting and when things don't work out you are driving like a madman to make the pickup. Then you hit that streak of shorties: Unload in the morning, deadhead, load, drive over night, unload, deadhead, load, drive over night... I could do it just so long.

He's making money. He is learning the game, and don't discount that, that's huge. He's building up a little equity and if he'll run hard at first maybe a lot of equity. There is something to look forward to more than just the money he is making. And he posts to CAD and lurks a lot and he gets all this priceless info from you fine gentleman and when he's ready, he makes the jump to something more profitable.

I appreciate your integrity and your sticking to your guns and calling out the O/O mega companies along with the ones that also have company trucks. No sacred cows, you are calling it straight. Let's look at two different types of guys 1) a guy just getting into the game leased onto a megacarrier getting his feet wet and paying the bills 2) a guy leased onto a mega carrier for many years with no intention of doing anything different. I'm not touching this last one, I don't know enough to say, I do better just listening. But the first guy, using his megacarrier lease as a stepping stone to whatever lofty heights of owner operatordom that are out there, I want to encourage that guy and look for the best. Not to get beat up about lease purchase, but my 4 months of lease purchase were both profitable and invaluable in opening up the game to me so that now I have a truck that's paid for and I'm on to other horizons.

BTW, nobody's increasing their net worth $50,000/yr in a company job. Best case scenario, that's after tax earnings, best case. From that comes all his household expenses throughout the year and if there is any increase in net worth it's only the portion of that $50k he is able to save.

[pepe4158]

Wow this post really took off...I appreciate all the trains of thought, lots for me to consider when coming back from Asia next year and beggining year two as an 0/0p

You know its funny, I became an O/0p own authority more out of wanting my own real freedom.....Its hard to explain, I was severly abused I believe as a Co. driver lol.....not to want to sound whiney or anything, but I swear every dispatcher I had was a sado-masochist looking for his stick to shove so deep up my ***** where the sun dont shine.

I made good $ with Co's only when I had a trainee in the truck, cuz I would tell him to call to the company and whine that we were getting abused (they always would lol) and we would actually get results cuz the companies would listen to him more then me (go figure lol)

You know its funny, lot of pep say I can make more $ as a Co. driver then an O/0p....hmmm if you only knew my, 'No body knows the troubles Ive seen song lol" Hmmm Co driver in a forced dispatch situation, they would routinely force me to p/u a local load, promise an hourly, but on my check each time I saw miles..........hmmmm wow the $...lets see...I worked about 8 hours fighting heavy city trafic to p/u that 20 mile load, and made a wopping 30c times 20 miles woo-woo. N fight as I might I could never change that system (finally years latter got a little justification after years of litigation....dont even wana go there) Yeah i cleaned up as a company driver lol

Point is Im scared ****less to lease on to a mega carrier after being a mega company driver (why would I expect them to be better to me cuz I have 1 little truck now?) ,,,Ive seen just how truely powerless I am in their eyes and I could never put a $ number on what that translates to money wise.
N leasing to a small one....hmmm seen these guys waiting for their checks cuz Joe-blow small time operation cant meet his budget n wont pay me.

Hmm dunno...which carrier are you with Prodigy?....maybe I might consider them sometime, but love my independence out here for the first time in my life I feel free and enjoying myself out here. I quess if I ever got a dispatcher that treated me like family (hmmm maybe should hope for better then family....some peps beat their wives)....I would see things differently.

[no_worries]

Cam, I don't disagree with anything you said. I was using $50,000 purely as a number, it wasn't meant to be an actual example.

I don't think that I've bashed anyone for leasing to a large company, nor have I said they can't make it. I've been a company driver for SNI, I've also leased to SNI. I know what can and can't be done in those leases. You can certainly make a decent living leasing to these companies. All I've said is that what you can make is going to be limited to somewhere in the neighborhood of what a company driver could make. That's just the way it is when your lease is paying within a certain range. I meet guys all the time who claim they have excellent profit levels on these leases. Without exception they use faulty accounting. Guys have nice cash flows and they consider everything after the truck expenses to be profit, without considering driver pay. I take $.50/mile for driver pay. That's the equivalent of a company paying me about $.42/mile. It's nice pay but not spectacular. When you take all expenses, including depreciation, plus driver pay, what's left would be your profit, or return on investment. A $1000 payment, minimum expenses of $6000/year, fuel at $.40/mile and maintenance at $.10/mile put operating expenses at $1.15/mile on 120,000 miles. That's about what a $.90/mile lease is going to pay right now and those are lowball expense numbers. This is what most of us have been saying. We're not saying guys can't make it. I know from experience that one can. But, if someone wants to claim they're more than meagerly profitable, we have our doubts. And those of us that express this opinion just don't believe in going through the hassle of owning a business if it's not going to make a profit. That's all.

I actually like to see people making a run at this. I'm only 33, by no means a sage, but I like to pass on what I've learned because others did for me. But when guys get all defensive because people question their unsubstantiated claims and resort to insults...c'mon. If you say something you know to be true, there's no need to be defensive because you've got the proof. If you don't have the proof then you don't really know for sure.

By the way, I'm using "you" in general, not directed at anybody in particular.

[Bigmon]

Generally speaking, most jobs are priced to pay similar to being on your own this way they can hire people.

Here's an example: Company driver makes 30,000. Owner Operator makes 100,000. Finding company drivers would be tough.

However, if an Owner Operator only made 35,000 then lots of people would be company drivers for 30,000 and not have the risk.

There are some O/O's that hit the ball out of the park, but most don't.

[Cam]

The extra costs of having your own authority are roughly around 20-25k more a year than leasing with a megacarrier paying 1.20 a mile. Even if you average 1.60 a mile for all miles you will still be 15-20k ahead,will you not? Another thing to keep in mind is that you don't use as much fuel when you deadhead,which makes a difference at the pump. If having your own authority isn't much different than leasing with a megacarrier paying .90cpm+fuel surcharge than all O/Os would be broke. 1.20 a mile in today's economy with high fuel and maintenance costs is simply far from enough to operate on. Sure,you might make money in the beginning until the operating costs catch up with you. Been there,done that.NO THANKS.

No Worries, if someone had addressed this sooner I wouldn't have had to. Prodigy is trying to make a go of it and he's told he's doomed to fail. How about we stick up for the guys trying to do something, you yourself have said:

Cam, I don't disagree with anything you said. I was using $50,000 purely as a number, it wasn't meant to be an actual example.

I don't think that I've bashed anyone for leasing to a large company, nor have I said they can't make it. I've been a company driver for SNI, I've also leased to SNI. I know what can and can't be done in those leases. You can certainly make a decent living leasing to these companies. All I've said is that what you can make is going to be limited to somewhere in the neighborhood of what a company driver could make. That's just the way it is when your lease is paying within a certain range. I meet guys all the time who claim they have excellent profit levels on these leases. Without exception they use faulty accounting. Guys have nice cash flows and they consider everything after the truck expenses to be profit, without considering driver pay. I take $.50/mile for driver pay. That's the equivalent of a company paying me about $.42/mile. It's nice pay but not spectacular. When you take all expenses, including depreciation, plus driver pay, what's left would be your profit, or return on investment. A $1000 payment, minimum expenses of $6000/year, fuel at $.40/mile and maintenance at $.10/mile put operating expenses at $1.15/mile on 120,000 miles. That's about what a $.90/mile lease is going to pay right now and those are lowball expense numbers. This is what most of us have been saying. We're not saying guys can't make it. I know from experience that one can. But, if someone wants to claim they're more than meagerly profitable, we have our doubts. And those of us that express this opinion just don't believe in going through the hassle of owning a business if it's not going to make a profit. That's all.

I actually like to see people making a run at this. I'm only 33, by no means a sage, but I like to pass on what I've learned because others did for me. But when guys get all defensive because people question their unsubstantiated claims and resort to insults...c'mon. If you say something you know to be true, there's no need to be defensive because you've got the proof. If you don't have the proof then you don't really know for sure.

By the way, I'm using "you" in general, not directed at anybody in particular.

The man is being told he is doomed to fail! For you and me it's just talk. For him, it's one of the most significant things he's doing with his life and he has a lot of hope vested in this. Defensive?! I'd say mad as hell would be appropriate! Again, I wouldn't have to be the bad guy if someone had spoken up sooner.

DD60, I'm not trying to pick quarrels with anyone. I know guys can use some of these low profit margin gigs to get started, to learn the business and to position themselves for better opportunities. I never read all of what went on in any other thread so I'm not talking about any of that. Some of you point the way to greener pastures and that's good to know. Just give us a little space to get our feet under our legs or however that goes.

[geomon]

no_worries wrote
[/quote]Remember, any up-front money you spend could be invested earning a decent return. You have to evaluate the opportunity costs to get a clear picture.

Guys have nice cash flows and they consider everything after the truck expenses to be profit, without considering driver pay. I take $.50/mile for driver pay. That's the equivalent of a company paying me about $.42/mile. It's nice pay but not spectacular. When you take all expenses, including depreciation, plus driver pay, what's left would be your profit, or return on investment. A $1000 payment, minimum expenses of $6000/year, fuel at $.40/mile and maintenance at $.10/mile put operating expenses at $1.15/mile on 120,000 miles. That's about what a $.90/mile lease is going to pay right now and those are lowball expense numbers.

Excellent posts no_worries.....I sure don't see very many people include driver pay and the cost of their money into the total cost equation. You're absolutely right...for them to make an informed decison, they should be including these as costs and then look at the total cost per mile vs the pay per mile. That is looking at it as a BUSINESS!!
Example...what happens if you get sick/injured, can't drive, and have to hire a driver...will you be able to survive?

Now once you have totalled all those costs, you can factor in the "freedom" and "run when I want to" sorts of things and decide the worth of the emotional side of things.

[geomon]

Hmm...what happened, my quote is NOT in blue and my response IS in blue. Oh well.... :?

[no_worries]

We just interpreted what DD60 said differently. You took it to mean that the individual can't make any money while I took it to mean that the business can't make any money. Either view would be correct. An owner can make $50,000 a year while his business goes bust.

I never once said Prodigy couldn't make it, nor did I personally attack him. He made some claims about his profitability and I responded to those. I didn't think I came off particularly hard-assed considering what I was responding to, but everyone takes things differently. You say getting mad is inappropriate? I think getting mad if somebody tells you it can't be done is irrational. I think it's great that these guys want to try. I admire Steve for what he's done. However, these are grown men, I just figure they don't need a pat on the back from someone they don't even know to justify their actions.

There have been some interesting insinuations as to what I'm really like lately. Suffice it to say, nobody would recognize me if that's what they were expecting. It's foolish to run around making claims about someone personally when you are just pulling things out of the air.

I rather enjoy these arguments. I'm just glad that you can make them in a rational way and not get too personally involved. Alright, my alternator's replaced, gotta go make some money. I'm sure I'll be on later...maybe y'all can figure out how I happen to get on here so much

[DD60]

Generally speaking, most jobs are priced to pay similar to being on your own this way they can hire people.

Here's an example: Company driver makes 30,000. Owner Operator makes 100,000. Finding company drivers would be tough.

However, if an Owner Operator only made 35,000 then lots of people would be company drivers for 30,000 and not have the risk.

There are some O/O's that hit the ball out of the park, but most don't.

BINGO.

[Cam]

We just interpreted what DD60 said differently. You took it to mean that the individual can't make any money while I took it to mean that the business can't make any money. Either view would be correct. An owner can make $50,000 a year while his business goes bust.

He might be able to do that once! Yeah, you turn the blown up truck back over to the finance company and let them send their lawyers if they think they can get anything out of you. 'Doom', 'Failure'. No matter how you slice it he has failed because he's not going to do that twice.

1.20 a mile in today's economy with high fuel and maintenance costs is simply far from enough to operate on.

You're a good guy, I can see that. No_worries, no one is confused about what that and 'will work for food' means. (the 'will work for food' remark...it's funny...it's all good...)

I never once said Prodigy couldn't make it, nor did I personally attack him. He made some claims about his profitability and I responded to those. I didn't think I came off particularly hard-assed considering what I was responding to, but everyone takes things differently. I didn't have those thoughts. But, your remarks about being able to make a decent living in one of these jobs is the kind of balance that's needed right now. You say getting mad is inappropriate? I didn't say that I think getting mad if somebody tells you it can't be done is irrational. But then, getting mad if you can 'make a decent living'... I think it's great that these guys want to try. I admire Steve for what he's done. However, these are grown men, I just figure they don't need a pat on the back from someone they don't even know to justify their actions.

There have been some interesting insinuations as to what I'm really like lately. Suffice it to say, nobody would recognize me if that's what they were expecting. It's foolish to run around making claims about someone personally when you are just pulling things out of the air. You can't be talking about me right now so I'm just going to stay out of that.

I rather enjoy these arguments. I'm just glad that you can make them in a rational way and not get too personally involved. Alright, my alternator's replaced, gotta go make some money. I'm sure I'll be on later...maybe y'all can figure out how I happen to get on here so much

As the old man would say, no one here has ruffles on his drawers.

One last final point, it is good and necessary to talk about 'driver pay' as being an expense as opposed to 'profit' even for an owner operator. Guys should hope to 'pay the driver' and make a profit. There are quality of life issues too, however. It's not hard to imagine an owner operator being willing to settle for either less 'driver pay' or less 'profit', you choose what you want to call it, an O/O could rationally settle for less of one or the other AT TIMES IF HE HAS TO to maintain that freedom to go to the house any time he wants for as long as he wants understanding that he still has to pay his bills. A couple of instances when someone might rationally be willing to settle for less 'pay' or 'profitability', hey, just starting out...does that make you think of anyone... ? How about the slow season like winter. How about a guy waiting for just the right time to jump to something better. How about a guy who says 'I'm just content with what I'm making and how I'm living'. These are all rational, personal decisions.

C'mon No-worries, you're a good guy and fun to throw it around with. Nothing here is personal, right?

[GMAN]

There are a couple of ways to look at profit when it comes to being an owner operator. I have known of some new owner operators who may make $0.45-60/mile after fuel. The way these people look at it is that they would only make $0.30/mile if they were a company driver. To them they are making a lot of money. They are not taking into consideration their payments, and other maintenance costs. The other way is to pay yourself as if you were a company driver. I have one friend who owns a couple of trucks and he has paid himself a fixed salary ever since he bought his first truck. He does this regardless of the truck pay or how many miles he runs. I know others who pay themselves a percentage of the line-haul and others a flat mileage rate. These last two would be paid to a driver if the owner did not do the driving himself. Any of these last three would be preferable from a business standpoint. You pay yourself a living wage and still don't drain the company of all of it's money. I think most owner operators don't pay themselves a wage. They just take what is left over after truck expenses for the week. Although this can work, you will need to take money from your personal savings if something breaks or you need tires, etc.,

One reason I prefer a corporation is that it is much easier to separate company funds from personal. You work for the corporation. As an employee you are entitled to be paid a salary or wage. As an employee you only take your wage or salary out of the corporation. The rest builds equity and reserves can be used for upgrading equipment or maintenance.