more power--better MPG ?

[jimmyg]

Well heres a question that I haven't seen on the forum.
Does anybody have any first hand info on the computer chip overrides that are supposed to give you more power? The one that I was interested in is sold by Pittsburg Performance Products and according to them it will give more power with the flip of a switch. I guess that was a simple explanation but it does intergrate with the original ECM .
What I do is trash hauling . The gross weight of the unit is 100,000 lbs going over the hills in northern N.H. and Me. I don't expect no mircle but I don't want to waste money on it if it doesn't perform !
Thank's Be safe

[Jumbo]

I had the chip that you put in your pickup and that worked. But, I have some reservations about doing that to a big engine. Wouldn't doing something like that void a warranty or decrease the life or the engine? If you give more power at one end I would think it would go down to the weakest link and BAM. Drive shaft on the ground. Or worse.

[jimmyg]

Yes there is such a thing as to much power particulrly when I am off road in the landfill. driveshafts and rears can and do explode. I would not be juicing it while I am on site.

[PackRatTDI]

The key to high HP is to realize you don't have to "work it" like you did with a lower output engine. Gentle throttle action with a 600hp beheamoth because the massive amounts of torque are going to propel you at lower RPMs than you needed with your 350hp "weakling".

[allan5oh]

I've never bought the higher hp = better fuel mileage and more reliable engine.

As you add fuel, the engine becomes richer. If you have the turbo maxed out and add more fuel, the engine becomes really rich. Both are not good for fuel mileage.

Take one engine at 400 hp and turn it up to 600 hp, if you use that 400-600 hp you are stressing the engine more then it was originally (capped at 400).

There may be exceptions, one I can think of is cat engines. As soon as you go to 550 hp, you get TWO DPF's I believe. This could help out in the MPG department.

[Teal 95 KW]

Basically, it's not a chip, it is a computer box with 6-7 different settings. The higher HP truck will get better fuel mileage based on variables such as the fact that you are not having to "work" the truck to get the same load moving and keep it moving. You can't use the thinking "you're dumping more fuel into it" because in order to get the maximum efficiency out of the set-up you have to step-up to their aftermarket turbo, and 8" exhaust. Moving that kinda air in and out of the motor it is going to breathe easier and have to work less to do the same job. Most guys with the set-ups aren't romping on their trucks all the time...have you never dropped 45k lbs behind a truck with a 400 hp cat, and had to use a lot of pedal to get it going? Then, drop that same load behind a 625 cat and you have to use very little pedal to get the same effect. My truck at the factory 475 setting wouldn't move loads as easily as it does now, nor did it do it as efficiently as it does it now.

If you put the Pittsburgh Power Box on a 475 Cat, and set it at the maximum setting using the stock turbo and exhaust, you're going to get full power for about 45 seconds before the computer begins derating and you begin losing power. Just like you don't put just a big cam, or a set of big heads on a stock displacement 302, and get any improvements, you have to have everything matched together to get the most out of the upgrades. For instance, I've taken stock Mustangs, and done heads/cam/intake on them and had them in the 11-second zone, and they get just as good of fuel mileage on the highway than they did before the swap...you use a LOT less go pedal to get up to speed than you did in stock form, and don't have to turn the same kinda rpm to get the same effect as it did in stock form.

[allan5oh]

Basically, it's not a chip, it is a computer box with 6-7 different settings. The higher HP truck will get better fuel mileage based on variables such as the fact that you are not having to "work" the truck to get the same load moving and keep it moving.

Horsepower *IS* work, if your engine is making more horsepower, you are working it harder. Just because you're pressing on the pedal less, doesn't mean that you are getting better fuel mileage. Look at hondas as a perfect example, you pretty much have the pedal to the floor all the time because they're gutless. Yet they get great fuel mileage..

You can't use the thinking "you're dumping more fuel into it" because in order to get the maximum efficiency out of the set-up you have to step-up to their aftermarket turbo, and 8" exhaust.

If it's a good turbo designed to help your engine be more efficient, recapturing the exhaust heat better, then yes I agree completely. But if it's just a chip that changes how much fuel you're putting in(the only thing you can change electronically, without opening up the engine), then no. Most engines come with a turbo too small, and dumping more fuel in it really isn't a good idea.

Moving that kinda air in and out of the motor it is going to breathe easier and have to work less to do the same job.

Yes, more air = more power. But more power = more work.

Most guys with the set-ups aren't romping on their trucks all the time...have you never dropped 45k lbs behind a truck with a 400 hp cat, and had to use a lot of pedal to get it going? Then, drop that same load behind a 625 cat and you have to use very little pedal to get the same effect. My truck at the factory 475 setting wouldn't move loads as easily as it does now, nor did it do it as efficiently as it does it now.

Again, how much you press the pedal has nothing to do with the fuel mileage. Besides the OEM could've just changed the "feel" of the pedal, and you'd swear you have more power. Mechanical engines feel like they have more power, but they don't. They're just crisper on the throttle. I prefer a softer feel, like my volvo. It's easier to shift. By your logic it should get less fuel mileage, yet I got 7.6 MPG last month.

If you put the Pittsburgh Power Box on a 475 Cat, and set it at the maximum setting using the stock turbo and exhaust, you're going to get full power for about 45 seconds before the computer begins derating and you begin losing power.

There's a good reason for that too. High EGT's are very hard on pistons, and aren't good for fuel mileage. You have to match the whole system.

Just like you don't put just a big cam, or a set of big heads on a stock displacement 302, and get any improvements, you have to have everything matched together to get the most out of the upgrades.

Yes, but we're talking about diesel engines.

For instance, I've taken stock Mustangs, and done heads/cam/intake on them and had them in the 11-second zone, and they get just as good of fuel mileage on the highway than they did before the swap...you use a LOT less go pedal to get up to speed than you did in stock form, and don't have to turn the same kinda rpm to get the same effect as it did in stock form.

Apples to oranges. 302's were never refined to the point that our diesels are. The stock heads are anemic. The stock intakes are anemic. The stock cams are anemic. The stock headers are anemic. The pistons have too much compression height, and not enough compression. I could go on and on.

[Teal 95 KW]

Allan that is basically the point I was trying to get across...doing jus tthe power box isn't going to yield alot of gain, you have to do everything that goes with it. Kinda the point behind me talking about doing heads/cam/intake at the same time. I guess my explanation wasn't clear enough, but I'd like to think you got the point of it which it seems in a round-about way you did.

[jimmyg]

Well now... I got the feedback that I was looking for..Thanks
I should have noted that I would be putting this device in my pete that is powered by a n-14 cummins. A lot of seasoned drivers ( and owners ) would say that there is not much hope for the cummin because it just doesn't deliver the torque that the cat does. The reason for that is the cat has bigger jugs ie: there is no replacement for displacement. But I like my cummins for the simplicity of the design and the motor parts are cheaper. I was hoping that there might be a quick fix to get a little more oomph out of the motor. Maybe I might reconsider my opinion on cummins and move onto a cat motor.

[special k]

I run a Pittsburg box on my 550 CAT.I've had it on for 3 years and wouldn't take it off. I gross 138,000lbs get 5.5 mpg. On cruise I run with tandem up and down hills all day long. My truck got 5.5 when it was a 475 /1650. The throttle response is so much better that we put the soft cruise back on. We had changed it to hard cruise and bumped the motor to a 550/1750 so I didn't have to split gears on small rolling hills. After all that I still wasn't happy. So we went to the box and I run it on the third setting have no black smoke or high pyrometer issues. Same fuel mileage, more power I'm a believer.

[no_worries]

Those guys at Pittsburgh Power specialize in Cummins motors. They'll probably want to put a bigger turbo on at a minimum but it might be worth talking to them.

[btinc]

As Special K said they are awesome, better fuel mileage and loaded to the max runs like you have a half a load on. I do have a after market turbo and exhaust, and i would not change my set up for anything. I love the box.

[allan5oh]

Probably what it is is that the turbo/exhaust setup does give you a little wee bit more power, but helps with engine efficiency and really helps the fuel mileage. The "box" wouldn't help with engine efficiency, and since you can "waste" more hp, it would kill your mileage. The two probably cancel each other out. If one got just the turbo and exhaust, mileage would definitely increase with no chance to waste extra HP.

[Teal 95 KW]

So, are you trying to say that the power gain is coming from the turbo/exhaust? A wee-bit of a gain? I know of a 475 Cat that with the box alone put down over 600 at the tires. That's a substantial gain, I see no "wasted power"..Now, if the exhaust and bigger turbo were added, then you are able to take advantage of the box, and run the higher settings.

[allan5oh]

I am saying without the box, just the turbo and exhaust, you will see some HP gain. The main "power gain" is from running the box, because it injects more fuel.

Generally, the more horsepower you have the more you will waste going 70 MPH+ up big hills, etc..

[Teal 95 KW]

I am saying without the box, just the turbo and exhaust, you will see some HP gain. The main "power gain" is from running the box, because it injects more fuel.

Generally, the more horsepower you have the more you will waste going 70 MPH+ up big hills, etc..

Gotcha! Well, they state on their website that you will NOT see improvements on flat open terrain, climbing etc. I believe that they state that "typical" improvements are .2 tenths to 1/2 a mpg, and there have been guys who have gotten 1 full mpg but that's one of those "perfect world" scenarios.

[Teal 95 KW]

And, FWIW-As much as I would like to have more power, I have more than I need right now (can pull the Grapevine at 60mph grossed out) I don't understand spending $7k for the turbo, box, and exhaust when they even state the most drivers who have the set-up only run on the 2nd or 3rd setting of 7....that's an extra 75hp? No reason to spend all that money on the set-up when you have speed limits, and pushing the truck (at the 60mph I pull the grapevine at, my mpg on my dash display drops to about 3.8-ish) like that, you lose fuel mileage BIG TIME. I guess aside from bragging rights, it doesn't do a whole lot in the real world...other than get you in trouble.

[allan5oh]

I am saying without the box, just the turbo and exhaust, you will see some HP gain. The main "power gain" is from running the box, because it injects more fuel.

Generally, the more horsepower you have the more you will waste going 70 MPH+ up big hills, etc..

Gotcha! Well, they state on their website that you will NOT see improvements on flat open terrain, climbing etc. I believe that they state that "typical" improvements are .2 tenths to 1/2 a mpg, and there have been guys who have gotten 1 full mpg but that's one of those "perfect world" scenarios.

If it doesn't make even one more horsepower, then the engine is running at the same efficiency as before.

[Truckdobe]

Have those of you that are stating that you "don't buy into this" actually tried it?? Or are you just stating your opinions??

I have not tried the Pittsburgh Power Box, but have dealt with Bruce over the years. I have taken a mechanical 425 to 600+ horsepower and GAINED almost a full mpg, as well as taking a truck from a pig to a pleasure to drive. I did NOT increase the rating of the transmission or clutch and ran it fine for years with no driveline failure (until it was stolen).

If I were planning to keep my current '07 I would definately buy the box, but since I'm not keeping it, I'm putting the $$ in the old 'B' model that I'll be driving in the future.

[allan5oh]

Have those of you that are stating that you "don't buy into this" actually tried it?? Or are you just stating your opinions??

Not opinion, but rather decent analysis. No I haven't tried it, probably wouldn't work with my Volvo engine.

It's not hard to understand, if you ram more air in the engine, it will become more efficient. Efficiency is BSFC (Brake Specific Fuel Consumption) which is the amount of fuel in lbs that is required to make one horsepower for an hour. Diesels are usually around .30, gas engines around .40. Lower is better, obviously.

Diesel fuel has a set amount of BTU's in it. You can convert directly from BTU's to horsepower, and doing this you'll discover most engines are around 30% efficient. The rest of the "lost heat" goes out either the rad or the exhaust. If your engine was 100% efficient, you wouldn't need a rad and the exhaust would be the same temperature as the air going into the turbo.

If you knew how efficient your engine was (bsfc), you could actually figure out how much average HP you need to travel down the highway.

Now given all of this, to increase fuel mileage you must create more horsepower-hours with the same amount of fuel. OR use LESS fuel and make the same horsepower with it.

Now this is where it gets tricky. "wasted" horsepower. This is HP that we're using in excess of what the truck actually needs. You travel faster, you're wasting more HP.

All I'm saying is with more HP, you have the potential to waste more HP. Up until the "original" HP of the engine(say a 475 HP cat turned up to 600), the engine behaves exactly the same as the old engine, efficiency and all.

Another thing I'm saying is that "turning up the engine" does not increase fuel mileage. All you're doing when you turn up the engine is inject more fuel, nothing more, nothing less.

If you allow the engine to breathe easier, remove restriction in the exhaust, reduce friction in the engine, increase compression, you both increase HP and increase efficiency. You CANNOT do one or the other. You aren't injecting more fuel, so if you made the same HP, you are exactly the same efficiency-wise.