Just shut up already.....

[GMAN]

I'll remember your words of wisdom as I'm changing out of my sweat soaked coveralls at the end of each day at my "unproductive" union job.



Actually, working union provides us with the wages and benefits that all workers deserve.

.

Actually, not all workers deserve the pay these unions get for them. Some work and some don't care. I always dread going to a union plant because it always seems to take longer for me to get in and out of the plant. If I go to a non union facility they tend to move faster and get me out much faster. Not all workers deserve the same pay. That is why I support performance pay. Those who work hard earn the most money. Those who slack off make the lower wages.

[Flying W]

Mackman got it 100% correct when he said it wasn't just union shops that closed up and left or went out of business. I've never bought another pair of Levi's ever after they closed up shop here and went to China, and I happen to like China a lot. They planned to do so, and then Tienanmen Square happened. So they waited a little while till it faded from memory, and then closed up shop here screwing every under paid worker over here. Even if every worker in this country worked for minimum wage, and had no benefits it would still be $7.25, and they aren't working for even close to that in many places. In fact, some Chinese plants have lost jobs because of their higher wage costs than some neighboring countries even.

"They continue to want more money and benefits for less effort." GMAN

You'll be happy to know that the non-union sweatshop workers at shoe factories in Vietnam and Indonesia periodically go out on strike because they also want more pay for less effort. By that they mean not having to work countless hours of overtime for free, and earning a wage which barely supports a person let alone a family (People always counter this by saying they earn more than the minimum wage there. I would love to see these people live in Jakarta for that wage, and tell me it is still a good deal for them.

Find me anyone anywhere no matter what they get paid that doesn't want to be paid more for what they do union or not.

[Flying W]

GMAN....While that sounds good, and most people would agree with you....it just doesn't work, and never will. There isn't a perfect pay system or accounting system despite what some people want you to believe. Don't take my word for it, research it and you'll see this.

[Rev.Vassago]

Actually, not all workers deserve the pay these unions get for them.

According to who? You? Obviously the companies disagree, since they are the ones paying the wages.

Some work and some don't care. I always dread going to a union plant because it always seems to take longer for me to get in and out of the plant. If I go to a non union facility they tend to move faster and get me out much faster.

You are comparing apples and oranges. No two facilities, union or not, are the same. You say it ALWAYS seems to take longer at a union facility. I find it hard to believe that simply because a facility is union, that it takes you longer. I've been to union facilities and gotten out lightning quick. I've been to non-union facilities, and waited all day. You see what you want to see.

Not all workers deserve the same pay. That is why I support performance pay. Those who work hard earn the most money. Those who slack off make the lower wages.

Right. That's not the way things happen in the real world though.

[Kranky]

That is why I support performance pay. Those who work hard earn the most money. Those who slack off make the lower wages.

And guess what happens when "those who work harder" produce more under the performance pay system?

The companies have a funny habit of reducing the rate because management feels those "hard workers" are making too much money, hence they cut the rate for all the workers. Kinda like a donkey with a carrot on a stick out in front of it. So then the "hard workers" speed up some more, sometimes at the risk of endangering their physical and mental health.

Make no mistake, I've never been lazy, as a matter of fact, I've been told many times to slow down and work at a normal pace, both on union and non union jobs.

A fair days pay for a fair days work is all anyone can ask for, unfortunately many times these days people are forced to work harder & faster for no real monetary reward, no health coverage, no dental coverage, no vision coverage and no pension plan.

Worker at union jobs receive higher wages, health coverage, dental coverage, vision coverage and a pension plan.

If given the choice between those 2 scenarios, which would you choose?

Seems like a no brainer to me.

.

[Kevin0915]

.... You see what you want to see.

"kettle" and "black" .... those words seem to come to mind.......(sorry, couldn't help myself) =)

[GMAN]

According to who? You? Obviously the companies disagree, since they are the ones paying the wages.

What not me. Who is better qualified to judge productivity than those who must deal with them? There have been some who seem to do a better job than others, but for the most part it seems to take longer for me to get out of a union facility than a non union shop. The companies don't necessarily disagree. They either go along with the program laid out by the union or they shut the plant down. Some of these unions have companies by the short hairs. Companies have allow the unions to dictate how and when they do business. The result is less productivity from their workers, higher pay and when it becomes intolerable they move abroad where they no longer have to deal with these unions attempting to extort money from them. Why do you think we don't have much of a steel industry any more? When you start dealing with the steel plants then come back and tell me I am wrong.



You are comparing apples and oranges. No two facilities, union or not, are the same. You say it ALWAYS seems to take longer at a union facility. I find it hard to believe that simply because a facility is union, that it takes you longer. I've been to union facilities and gotten out lightning quick. I've been to non-union facilities, and waited all day. You see what you want to see.

I see very well, thank you. And I stand behind what I have said. I never said that I haven't waited at a non union company, but for the most part the non union facilities seem to work a little harder to get me out. Weren't you the one who told me not long ago that you were in a union facility and nearly loaded when the forklift operator quit and refused to put the last few pallets on your truck until he got back off his break? Whether it was you or not, that would likely NEVER have happened at a non union shop.


Right. That's not the way things happen in the real world though.

That is exactly how things work in the real world. When a worker is a member of a union, supervisors have told me that it is very difficult to get rid of a non productive worker. The union protects them.

[dobry4u]

That is exactly how things work in the real world. When a worker is a member of a union, supervisors have told me that it is very difficult to get rid of a non productive worker. The union protects them.

If the company has written policy of what the production expectations are, then it isn't "very difficult" to get rid of a union or non-union working. It creates just cause.

[GMAN]

GMAN....While that sounds good, and most people would agree with you....it just doesn't work, and never will. There isn't a perfect pay system or accounting system despite what some people want you to believe. Don't take my word for it, research it and you'll see this.

I believe that people should be paid what they are worth. I think that production can work in most situations. I worked in a factory while in high school. I operated a machine that made yarn for carpet. Starting out we were paid minimum wage plus production. If we exceeded production we were paid a higher wage. I usually made production. This was a non union company. I made as much as those who had been there for 16 years. I have always been ambitious and worked hard. I am not going to say that production will work in every situation, but it could work in MOST jobs. Forklift operators could be paid a flat rate for each truck they load. That could also work for crane operators in steel plants. I doubt that you would wait very long to get loaded or unloaded if they were paid for each truck. I also don't think that drivers would be sitting around twiddling their thumbs while these loaders were sitting around talking.

Accounting is basically the same no matter what the industry. There are some idiosyncrasies within some industries, but the basics remain the same.

[Irishtrucker]

If truckers want to know how to strike effectively you need look no further than France. When they decide they want better pay they get it!!

They shut the country down for a week, block all ferry ports and border crossings into the country until they get a negotiation to their liking. Trucking in France is a well respected profession and well paid, a testament to the fact that you teach others how to treat you.

Obviously France is geographically different from the US and their methods may not work here but they have done it regularly there successfully.

[GMAN]

If the company has written policy of what the production expectations are, then it isn't "very difficult" to get rid of a union or non-union working. It creates just cause.

From what some supervisors have conveyed to me it isn't always that simple. I remember one supervisor telling me about one guy who was a real slacker. Everyone was always having to do his work because he was lazy. Things were further complicated because he was a minority. At that time companies were being sued right and left by minorities who were fired, regardless of the infraction. This guy just didn't want to deal with it. He had been making notes and keeping a log of him, but it was taking time. He got a break when the guy's girlfriend stabbed him in the eye. Since the job entailed having good vision in both eyes, he could then fire him. It should not be that difficult to get rid of unproductive workers. Non productive workers harm not only the company but other workers as well.

[Mackman]

Forklift operators could be paid a flat rate for each truck they load. That could also work for crane operators in steel plants. .

What happens when there are no trucks to be load or un-loaded?? How would you pay these guys?? Let me guess they should sit around for nothing waiting for a truck.

[Kranky]

What happens when there are no trucks to be load or un-loaded?? How would you pay these guys?? Let me guess they should sit around for nothing waiting for a truck.

Why not?

That's what the CPM dwellers do while waiting for the forklift!!!!!

[Mackman]

[GMAN]

If truckers want to know how to strike effectively you need look no further than France. When they decide they want better pay they get it!!

They shut the country down for a week, block all ferry ports and border crossings into the country until they get a negotiation to their liking. Trucking in France is a well respected profession and well paid, a testament to the fact that you teach others how to treat you.

Obviously France is geographically different from the US and their methods may not work here but they have done it regularly there successfully.

You are right about things being different in the U.S. France has long been a socialist country. We still have an independant mentality in this country, especially in the trucking industry. Most people who are drivers seem to aspire to own their truck and be their own boss as an owner operator. You don't see many businessmen strike. I am not sure that is the case in France.

[GMAN]

What happens when there are no trucks to be load or un-loaded?? How would you pay these guys?? Let me guess they should sit around for nothing waiting for a truck.

If they have to sit around a lot then there are probably too many forklift operators. Besides, performance pay could take some of this into consideration.

[Kranky]

If they have to sit around a lot then there are probably too many forklift operators.

That's what you say now, but when you get there and you have to wait, you'll be b**ching about how it must be due to the lazy union forklift operators.

.

[Flying W]

Performance pay just doesn't work. Or maybe I should rephrase that to say it doesn't work any better than any other pay system. To do so requires some sort of measurement to determine whether an employee is more deserving than another, and in turn the employees meet the graded aspects of their job while letting other areas slip.

Kranky got it 100% correct on the results of performance pay. A truck driver should know this better than anyone. Just think of the Crayloa coloring books drivers call their logs. Performance pay has worked so well for the trucking industry that cpm logs represent reality less than a Harry Potter movie, and yet the driver is still paid poorly.

"Forklift operators could be paid a flat rate for each truck they load. That could also work for crane operators in steel plants. I doubt that you would wait very long to get loaded or unloaded if they were paid for each truck. I also don't think that drivers would be sitting around twiddling their thumbs while these loaders were sitting around talking." I think we can all safely say lumpers disprove this theory

[Rev.Vassago]

What not me. Who is better qualified to judge productivity than those who must deal with them? There have been some who seem to do a better job than others, but for the most part it seems to take longer for me to get out of a union facility than a non union shop. The companies don't necessarily disagree. They either go along with the program laid out by the union or they shut the plant down. Some of these unions have companies by the short hairs. Companies have allow the unions to dictate how and when they do business. The result is less productivity from their workers, higher pay and when it becomes intolerable they move abroad where they no longer have to deal with these unions attempting to extort money from them. Why do you think we don't have much of a steel industry any more? When you start dealing with the steel plants then come back and tell me I am wrong.

I've dealt with steel plants YEARS ago. Now show me a non-union steel plant that you got right out of. Oh wait - they're all union, so you have nothing to compare them to. You deal with shipping and receiving departments. That's not necessarily indicative of how an entire plant runs. You're lumping an entire group into a basket, and saying you don't like the group. I'll spare the word so that you won't accuse me of name calling.

I see very well, thank you. And I stand behind what I have said. I never said that I haven't waited at a non union company, but for the most part the non union facilities seem to work a little harder to get me out. Weren't you the one who told me not long ago that you were in a union facility and nearly loaded when the forklift operator quit and refused to put the last few pallets on your truck until he got back off his break? Whether it was you or not, that would likely NEVER have happened at a non union shop.

Nope, not me. I've had to wait plenty of times at non union shops while they took breaks though.

That is exactly how things work in the real world. When a worker is a member of a union, supervisors have told me that it is very difficult to get rid of a non productive worker. The union protects them.

You're absolutely right - it's tougher to get rid of a non productive worker in a union shop. But that does not mean that all union members, or even a MAJORITY of union members are unproductive.

[Rev.Vassago]

France has long been a socialist country.

LOL. Nope.

List of socialist countries: Information from Answers.com

We still have an independant mentality in this country, especially in the trucking industry. Most people who are drivers seem to aspire to own their truck and be their own boss as an owner operator. You don't see many businessmen strike. I am not sure that is the case in France.

So now you're advocating socialism? Just the other day you were claiming Obama was a socialist (even though he isn't) and this was somehow a bad thing. I really don't think you understand what Socialism is.