My job hauling freight for GM is now history

[dobry4u]

For the record, I rarely agree with WW about anything. Today, I couldn't have said it better.



I was driving through Colorado springs one glorious afternoon, fairly early in our economic freefall, and heard an economist expain it thusly . .

American productivity (labor) has gone through the roof since the Reagan administration. No country, not even China was anywhere close. Unfortunately, wages NEVER kept pace with productivity. All the money went to shareholders, management and . . you guessed it . . government. It got to the point where Americans were producing goods they themselves could not afford to buy. In collusion, shareholders, management and . . you guessed it . . government, decided the solution was to send all the jobs overseas where the goods could be produced cheaply and then American Labor could afford to buy again!

The modern American business model has "antilabor" in it's DNA. We can afford to pay more when fuel goes up. We can afford to pay more when insurance goes up. But, somehow, we can't afford to pay more when we are ALL made more prosperous and wages go up.

Did the UAW go too far? Yes they did. Did the Teamsters go to far and destroy the reputation of unions? Yes they did. Are unions inherently bad? No, they are not. American Labor needs to reorganize and take this stinkin' country back.

You can't be serious? Let's look at economics from a world's prospective....


US auto industry labor.... $50K a year for one laborer

China and Mexico... what is their greatest resource? If you said labor, you are correct. They have huge populations. So, it would make sense to even a non-economist that they can offer labor at a lessor price. So, natural law of economics would have industry go there for labor, if it was cost effective, which it is. Anything labor intense is going to be cheaper to make in Mexico or China. Like diamonds in Africa. Cheaper there because that is where the resource is.

The automotive industry puked here mainly because of our labor costs, IMHO.

[Windwalker]

You can't be serious? Let's look at economics from a world's prospective....


US auto industry labor.... $50K a year for one laborer

China and Mexico... what is their greatest resource? If you said labor, you are correct. They have huge populations. So, it would make sense to even a non-economist that they can offer labor at a lessor price. So, natural law of economics would have industry go there for labor, if it was cost effective, which it is. Anything labor intense is going to be cheaper to make in Mexico or China. Like diamonds in Africa. Cheaper there because that is were the resource is.

The automotive industry puked here mainly because of our labor costs, IMHO.

Sorry... I can't agree with you.

I don't know of any... And, I do many ANY member of management whose decisions are worth a million dollars a day... Plus bonuses, and golden parachute.. Now one single one of them.

[dobry4u]

Sorry... I can't agree with you.

I don't know of any... And, I do many ANY member of management whose decisions are worth a million dollars a day... Plus bonuses, and golden parachute.. Now one single one of them.

One CEO's wage isn't going to brake a company. Times thousands of UAW workers salaries (50K) and that is what breaks the bank

[Windwalker]

It's not just the CEO, either. How many VPs do you think they have? By the time you total up all the exec's salaries, bonuses, and parachutes, Think about it. AIG gave out more than a billion dollars of "bailout money" in executive bonuses. With the auto industry, someone quoted (on another thread, I believe) that employees wages only accounts for about 10% of their expenses. Energy costs would be a much larger expense, I believe, when you include utilities, and shipping. There are a lot of lights in any assembly plant, and it takes a whole lot of truckloads of supplies to keep the line going. These days, 50K a year is not that much. But, over the last 10 years, take a look at the increase in insurance costs. And, how many kinds of insurance do they have to carry. Those premiums have gone up much faster than the rate of inflation.

Then, too, the fact that these new cars are so unreliable and expensive to repair has not helped them either. Today, you can't come along with a screwdriver and re-adjust the points to get it going again. Now, you have to have it taken into a garage, have a computer anylizer hooked up to it, and then replace the failed electronic component. The cost of repairs alone has hurt them as much as anything else. I have a few neighbors that will pay a $1000 for a pre-1974 vehicle before they will take a brand new model because of the electronics and what it takes to repair them. On some models, you can't even change your own spark plugs anymore. There are a number of people that have more faith in politicians then in the new cars, and that's pretty bad. None of which has done the auto industry any good at all. One dealer confides that when a used car has a rubber timing belt, he has a problem selling it. A timing chain will go for 10 to 20 years. A belt has to be replaced nearly every year in the southern states or it will fail on the road and the owner is faced with towing charges as well as the repair. And, replacing a belt in a garage is over $150. Compared to a chain, it's 10 times more expensive. I just had the chain replaced in my Taurus (1990) for the first time. $237.89 total cost. Things like that do not help the auto industry in the least. There's far more to it than employees wages. And, all of the above has to do with management decissions that were not worth the money they're getting paid.

[Windwalker]

One CEO's wage isn't going to brake a company. Times thousands of UAW workers salaries (50K) and that is what breaks the bank

And, for the record, I was making more than $40K, 12 years ago. So, $50K today is not that great and should have no effect of breaking their bank. However, millions of dollars spent on an experiment that was designed to fail before it even got to the drawing board, reflects management decisions that may be brilliant in terms of education, but ******ed in terms of common sense as well. They certainly are not worth the money they're getting.

[dobry4u]

And, for the record, I was making more than $40K, 12 years ago. So, $50K today is not that great and should have no effect of breaking their bank. However, millions of dollars spent on an experiment that was designed to fail before it even got to the drawing board, reflects management decisions that may be brilliant in terms of education, but ******ed in terms of common sense as well. They certainly are not worth the money they're getting.

My son's father was making 60 k when he retired. Add bennies..

The point I was trying to illustrate is business is going to go where labor is cheaper..... China, Mexico...

In any,... ANY.... industry... labor is the major expense

[tombestonebilly]

My son's father was making 60 k when he retired. Add bennies..

The point I was trying to illustrate is business is going to go where labor is cheaper..... China, Mexico...

In any,... ANY.... industry... labor is the major expense

Same deal with trucking and one day you'll find yourself in the same breadline as the autoworkers. Cause why pay an American driver .35 cpm or an O/O $1.25/mile when a mexican driver will do the same job for half?

I got a buddy who owns his own rig and he pulled containers for alot of years out of the midwestern ports. Can't do that no more cause there's no money in it since the russians and eastern europeans came in and beat the rates down to nothing. On the west coast and down south it's all spanish speaking drivers pulling cans for peanuts. Alot of those guys are making less than $20,000 per year.

You guys bashing the autoworkers and the unions are gonna get a wakeup call when the government opens up this industry to illegals by allowing them to get CDLs to ease the driver shortage. Only reason all the talk about the driver shortage and such is on ice is due to the economy. Once the economy picks up steam the companies will be complaining they cant find drivers no more.

Do you read the news? Obama and the transportaion secreteary Ray Lahood are opening up the Mexican cross-border trucking again. Read Landline there's a bunch of articles about it.

[tombestonebilly]

And, for the record, I was making more than $40K, 12 years ago. So, $50K today is not that great and should have no effect of breaking their bank.

Brother I was earning $40k as a companyman in 1982 for Schneider Transport. I had my own truck in 1975 earning $1.50 per mile. I see companymen and O/O pulling for less than I did 30-plus years ago.

[avc]

Americans need to wake up, it is NOT THE UNIONS THAT BROKE THE AUTOMAKERS, it is and always has been oil fraud that did the trick.

Many of you kids do not remember the first oil crisis in 1973 engineered by Kissinger and Nixon for their oil company clients that caused folks to quit buying large cars, instead people were driving Ford Pintos that were blowing up on rear impact and Chevy Vegas.

This is when the Jap's got hold of the auto industry and a foothold also.

Today the same Nixon gang (Bush Senior, Kissinger and Cheney) rigged the oil markets for the last 8 years to benefit Kissinger clients (Rockefeller, Exxon and Arabs).

This is 1973 all over, conducted by the same gang of low life's, that is what has ruined America, not the unions which all should have called a national strike in every industry until Congress threw the RNC morons listed above in Federal Prison for the rest of their ____ damned lives !!!!!


http://www.slideshare.net/mbalecture...singer-1462896


A peace loving America as originally envisioned by the founding fathers no longer exists. What exists now is an America as envisioned by Richard Nixon, Henry Kissinger, and a cartel of politically powerful executives from the oil industry. Incidentally, a significant part of the military threats Henry Kissinger perceived from distant corners of the world were just conjectural and paranoically speculative. In recent decades, American foreign policies emanating from the White House have exhibited the absence of superior moral and ethical values. This was a trend set off by Henry Kissinger. All over the world, there were small groups of communists operating within small regions. Henry Kissinger had a paranoiac dislike for such groups. He attempted to squash them with light military assaults. Such low intensity confrontations could have maneuvered these communist groups into obtaining heavy military support from the Soviet communists, and emerging as more powerful outfits. Many believe that Henry Kissinger was an excellent tactician. However, they wonder if he was a competent strategist. Sometimes, doubts were also raised about his moral and ethical values. While his oratory seemed to present him as a person with high moral values, his actions on the ground did not seem to reflect ethical choices. The Democrat Congressmen who were suspicious of Henry Kissinger scornfully recollected that his last strategy had drawn Cambodia into war. At one time, after facing problems with communists, Cambodia had requested military help from America. However, providing weapons and military hardware to Cambodia would not have solved the problem. Cambodia’s military was too small to be able to successfully engage in a full scale war. Therefore, the White House administration gladly accepted the invitation to bomb the sanctuaries of the communists in Cambodia. In 1971, a small faction of the South Vietnamese military illegally invaded Cambodia. It is alleged that the American troops stationed in Vietnam also covertly supported and encouraged this incursion into Cambodia. Over the years, America’s alliance with Israel exposed her to risk. Henry Kissinger’s political schemes also exposed the American nation to risk. Finally, it is no surprise that Andrew Cockburn has written a book titled Dangerous Liaison : The Inside Story of the U.S.-Israeli Covert Relationship. Also, Jussi Hanhimaki has written a book titled The Flawed Architect : Henry Kissinger and American foreign policy. From a political thinker’s perspective, cleverly crafted foreign policies with covert agendas could bring economic power to American capitalists.

[homer]

[QUOTE=Mackman;452271]
I know alot of UNION company's that make a killing and get bigger every year it seems like.

i see many belly up.
things really went to hell when democrat majority was installed in congress and senate. now obama spends trillions we dont have repaying those who bankrolled his career with union dues and and donations from archer daniels and people who make lousy movies.
you are still not allowed to sell cars or own factories in japan.
there is no free trade without fair trade.
now they will litigate and stop power plant construction till you wont be able to afford to charge up your barney frankmobile

[Rev.Vassago]

It's not just the CEO, either. How many VPs do you think they have? By the time you total up all the exec's salaries, bonuses, and parachutes, Think about it. AIG gave out more than a billion dollars of "bailout money" in executive bonuses.

AIG is not an auto manufacturer.

With the auto industry, someone quoted (on another thread, I believe) that employees wages only accounts for about 10% of their expenses. Energy costs would be a much larger expense, I believe, when you include utilities, and shipping. There are a lot of lights in any assembly plant, and it takes a whole lot of truckloads of supplies to keep the line going.

Shipping is not an energy expense. It is a transportation expense, and it appears as if you are attempting to inflate numbers to make wages appear smaller than they really are.

These days, 50K a year is not that much.

There are people lining up to get truck driving jobs that don't pay $50,000 a year. Tell them that it isn't that much.

But, over the last 10 years, take a look at the increase in insurance costs. And, how many kinds of insurance do they have to carry. Those premiums have gone up much faster than the rate of inflation.

Blame frivolous lawsuits for that. All the more reason for companies to want to drag their operations outside the US.

Then, too, the fact that these new cars are so unreliable and expensive to repair has not helped them either.

That's odd. Cars back in 1974 didn't come with 10 year, 100,000 mile warranties, did they? I believe back then the best you could get was a 3 year, 36,000 mile. Back then, if your car had 75,000 miles on it, that was a "high mileage" car. Today, if your car doesn't have 100,000 miles on it, it's not even broken in. Unreliable, indeed.

Today, you can't come along with a screwdriver and re-adjust the points to get it going again. Now, you have to have it taken into a garage, have a computer anylizer hooked up to it, and then replace the failed electronic component. The cost of repairs alone has hurt them as much as anything else. I have a few neighbors that will pay a $1000 for a pre-1974 vehicle before they will take a brand new model because of the electronics and what it takes to repair them. On some models, you can't even change your own spark plugs anymore.

That is certainly the exception to the rule. Manufacturers give the people what they want - and the people want cars that are reliable and can be easily diagnosed by a repair shop.

You keep saying that "they aren't worth the money they are getting paid". What happens when the time comes that someone says that about you? About your family members? After all - there is always someone who will do you your job cheaper than you do it. So obviously you are being overpaid.

[LightsChromeHorsepower]

A couple of points here-

1. You can't compare American wages to Chinese, unless you account for productivity. American workers are the most productive in the world. We also are bloated with overpaid management types. Ther was agreat article in The New Yorker recently about Nissan's plant in Smyrna TN and how productive it has become. American workers can earn a good wage and still be competitive.

2. A major component of the auto makers problems is their huge pension fund expense, a substantial portion of which is for health care. Obama is right when he says fixing our health care system is our most important priority. Why GM & Chrysler have not lobbied for a single-payer system is beyond me. If you took their health care liabilities ooff their books they could probably survive just fine.

3. I've been saying for years, maybe decades, that a global economy would lead to a global standard of living, and guess who has the most to lose in that?

I cannot believe that Obama has chosen economic adisors from the same "Chicago School", Milton Friedman acolyte types that got us where we are now. For crying out loud, Alan Greenspan even admitted to Congress that he was wrong. How much more discredited can you be? Yet there are still people out there screaming that we have to cut taxes more to get us out of the mess that Bush's tax cuts help get us into. I keep coming back to the analogy of discovering that you've shot yourself in the foot and then want to use the gun to stop the bleeding.

[Rev.Vassago]

American workers are the most productive in the world.

Statistics to back this up?

[LightsChromeHorsepower]

Statistics to back this up?

http://www.ilo.org/public/english/em...oad/kilm18.pdf

We add the most value per employed person per year.

Norway, I think, beats us per hour.

Our big advantage is that we all work more hours per whatever than our EU counterparts who are spending all their extra time on vacations and taking advantage of all the free benefits their socialist systems provide them.

[Windwalker]

Let's see... Looking at my taxable income back in 1978...

In order for that to keep up with the rising cost of insurance premiums on my car, I should be making $400,000+. (Safe-driver, no accidents, no tickets.)
In order to have kept up with the rising cost of gasoline, I should be making $83,000+. (Over $100,000 a year ago.)
In order for it to have kept up with the rising cost of food, I should be making $210,000+.

And, that's not going dollar for dollar. That's going by percentage of increase over the years. (Your own figures may vary) The cost of banking has gone up over the years, where services that were free back in '78 now have fees attached to them. My income has not kept up with that either.

But, don't take my word for it. Do your own calculations. Look at what you were making twenty years ago, and what you are making today. Then, look at the cost of rent, property tax, health insurance, doctor's visits, utility costs, etc. I used to buy two weeks worth of groceries for $100, try to do that now, and feed a family of 5. Has your own income kept up with the rising costs? If it has, you're one of the very few. Why do you suppose businesses like BEST BUY are closing their doors? People can't afford to spend the money on things they did in the past. And, as they close their doors, it means still more people out of work and competing for the jobs that are left.

Banks are failing, and businesses are closing their doors because people are not spending like they did in the past. People are not spending anymore because their employers have not given them realistic pay raises. It was gasoline and food prices that brought the problem to a head recently, but the trend started decades ago.

Think of the Mississippi River. Dam up the small creeks and streams that feed the tributaries. Don't let the water flow. What happens to all the major tributaries, and what happens to the Mississippi? That's what the economy is doing, except it's not being dammed up. The water is not getting to the creeks and streams. Same effect, the mighty Mississippi dries up either way. In order for the economy to have stayed healthy, the proportion between income and expenses should have remained in balance. It has not.

[dobry4u]

People are not spending anymore because their employers have not given them realistic pay raises.

Bingo! That's called unemployment.

[Rev.Vassago]

In order for that to keep up with the rising cost of insurance premiums on my car, I should be making $400,000+. (Safe-driver, no accidents, no tickets.)
In order to have kept up with the rising cost of gasoline, I should be making $83,000+. (Over $100,000 a year ago.)
In order for it to have kept up with the rising cost of food, I should be making $210,000+.

And, that's not going dollar for dollar. That's going by percentage of increase over the years. (Your own figures may vary) The cost of banking has gone up over the years, where services that were free back in '78 now have fees attached to them. My income has not kept up with that either.

Your calculations only hold true if:

1. 100% of your income goes toward those items, or
2. Every single item you spend money on increased at the same percentage across the board.

Since neither of these two things are true, I'm gonna have to call BS. Sure; a dollar today does not go as far as a dollar back then. I don't think anyone would dispute that. I also don't think anyone would dispute that incomes have not kept tabs with inflation.

[Windwalker]

AIG is not an auto manufacturer.

AIG was an example of what management does with the money. They are not the only ones by any means. The auto industry is no exception.

Shipping is not an energy expense. It is a transportation expense, and it appears as if you are attempting to inflate numbers to make wages appear smaller than they really are.

But the fuel used for shipping represents energy. I don't have to inflate any figures.

There are people lining up to get truck driving jobs that don't pay $50,000 a year. Tell them that it isn't that much.

And, as the standard goes down, you'll also see them fighting over the food in garbage cans. It's called survival. You do what you have to in order to get by because there is nothing else available. It doesn't mean that what you get is all that great. There are people in this area that made decent money working for contractors. Today, they're gladly accepting $10 for cutting your grass.

Blame frivolous lawsuits for that. All the more reason for companies to want to drag their operations outside the US.

And, judges that hand down decisions like 3 months probation for a child molester, or $15 million for spilling coffee in your own lap.

That's odd. Cars back in 1974 didn't come with 10 year, 100,000 mile warranties, did they? I believe back then the best you could get was a 3 year, 36,000 mile. Back then, if your car had 75,000 miles on it, that was a "high mileage" car. Today, if your car doesn't have 100,000 miles on it, it's not even broken in. Unreliable, indeed.

I agree that "that" is odd. Since I had a '76 pickup that went over 600K without a rebuild. Starter, brakes, tires, 3 water pumps, and 2 timing chains. Engine still ran fine when the body fell apart.

Might want to take a good look at some of those nice new, not-even-broken-in new cars you see rolled over in the median or in the bushes off the road. Especially, take a look at the opposite directions the front wheels are pointing. I changed a total of 3 tie-rod ends in pre-1990 vehicles. Since then, I've already changed 6. My son-in-law is a certified mechanic, and makes his living working on vehicles. His opinion, based on his work... Grab something older, spend half the cost of a newer one, and you'll have 4 times the car as a new one. He's had cars given to him because the owners are tired of fixing them. And, something like a Dodge Stratus that's 6 years old isn't exactly a cheap car.

That is certainly the exception to the rule. Manufacturers give the people what they want - and the people want cars that are reliable and can be easily diagnosed by a repair shop.

It's called ***A D V E R T I S I N G***, and it IS an effective form of hypnosis. Just like "FRONT-WHEEL DRIVE" is so much better and safer. The fact is, it's cheaper to build, and it's dynamically unstable. (Try putting your outboard on the front of your boat and see how well you can go in a straight line) If front-wheel drive were so much better and safer, why don't we have front-wheel drive school busses? We do have the technology. About 30 years ago, I was doing all my own repairs. Today, you have to have an $1100 computerized analyzer to even think about it.

You keep saying that "they aren't worth the money they are getting paid". What happens when the time comes that someone says that about you? About your family members? After all - there is always someone who will do you your job cheaper than you do it. So obviously you are being overpaid.

I'm not being paid $100,000 a day for decisions that run my financial institution into failure either.

[Rev.Vassago]

You keep saying that "they aren't worth the money they are getting paid". What happens when the time comes that someone says that about you? About your family members? After all - there is always someone who will do you your job cheaper than you do it. So obviously you are being overpaid.

I'm not being paid $100,000 a day for decisions that run my financial institution into failure either.

So now we've established that you're expendable, and we're just arguing the dollar figures.

[dobry4u]

And, as the standard goes down, you'll also see them fighting over the food in garbage cans. It's called survival. You do what you have to in order to get by because there is nothing else available. It doesn't mean that what you get is all that great. There are people in this area that made decent money working for contractors. Today, they're gladly accepting $10 for cutting your grass.

That's dictated by what the labor market will bear. Try to get more and the company will fail because they cannot compete.

Standard of living is going to adjust globally. That's a proven fact.

And, judges that hand down decisions like 3 months probation for a child molester, or $15 million for spilling coffee in your own lap.

you are confusing a civil matter (15 mill for spilled coffee) to a criminal matter (child molesting). Apples and oranges.



I know this was with Rev. , but I offered my 2 cents