just a little confused.....

[Kevin0915]

This is really too stupid a question to even be asking at this point. I THINK i know the answer to this, but seeing how i had 2 log violations in 3 days, all because somehow i miss calculated my 10 hour break....

I was heading out of Temple, TX, and had had a fresh 11/14hr clocks. seeing how i only got an hour or two of sleep here and there, i wasnt really that well rested. I started my clock going to line 4 at 11:45p. I did a 15 min pretrip, hooked, another 15, and just for the fun of it, showed 15 driving. So i was on line 3 at midnight-thirty. I knew when my 11 hours were up after i took a 2 hour nap (boy it sure helped), and was able to make it to El Paso with 5 min. (technically no time) left to spare for my 11, and i still wanted to top off before parking for my 10.

My question is this, and i think i know the answer, but does your 11/14 hr clock start the moment you drop to line 4, yes? The way i was told in school and by the log class i took, it does. How the guy teaching the log class said that you could be on line 4 for 24 hours....there is no limit to how many hours you can work on duty not driving (except when you reach your 70 for 8 days). You just cannot work more than 14, and then go to line 3 without a 10 hour break. (or doing your split sleeper thing).

guess the thing throwing me off now (more parinoid than anything i guess) is 'working' past my 14 on line 4. Like today, i had 30 min left to 'work' in my 14. i didnt exceed that, so that isnt a question, but lets say the way i timed it, my 11 and 14 ended at exactly the same time, and i still needed to show a post trip and/or fuel?? can i still legally do it?

Guess my next purchase is paying for the full version of the Driver Daily Log program for my laptop. have it downloaded, just dont have the full 'purchased' version. Would save me from getting more violations, and would help me by flagging my 10, 11 and 14 hr benchmarks.

[cdswans]

. . my 11 and 14 ended at exactly the same time, and i still needed to show a post trip and/or fuel?? can i still legally do it?

Yes. You need not show any time for a post trip; just flag it and/or include it with your fuel time and you can do anything but drive at the end of your 14.

[Rev.Vassago]

My question is this, and i think i know the answer, but does your 11/14 hr clock start the moment you drop to line 4, yes?

Yes and no. Your 14 hour clock starts when you drop to line 4. Your 11 hour clock starts when you start driving. Unless, of course, the 14 hour clock prevents you from driving the full 11 hours (if you were On Duty(not driving) for more than three hours prior to driving).

The way i was told in school and by the log class i took, it does. How the guy teaching the log class said that you could be on line 4 for 24 hours....there is no limit to how many hours you can work on duty not driving (except when you reach your 70 for 8 days). You just cannot work more than 14, and then go to line 3 without a 10 hour break. (or doing your split sleeper thing).

That's correct - you can't drive beyond the 14th hour after coming on duty (barring split sleeper berth stuff).

guess the thing throwing me off now (more parinoid than anything i guess) is 'working' past my 14 on line 4. Like today, i had 30 min left to 'work' in my 14. i didnt exceed that, so that isnt a question, but lets say the way i timed it, my 11 and 14 ended at exactly the same time, and i still needed to show a post trip and/or fuel?? can i still legally do it?

Yes. You can stay On Duty (not driving) past the 14th hour, but you can't drive until you've got your 10 hour break completed, either as a whole, or with a split sleeper berth.

[golfhobo]

Kevin said:

This is really too stupid a question to even be asking at this point.

No it's not! I've heard stupider ones from drivers with many more years experience than you! ANY question that saves a driver from a violation and/or a FINE is okay on this board.

I THINK i know the answer to this, but seeing how i had 2 log violations in 3 days, all because somehow i miscalculated my 10 hour break....

It sounds like "maybe" you don't. I had ONE violation in over 3 years! And it had nothing to do with "calculations."

I was heading out of Temple, TX, and had had a fresh 11/14hr clocks. seeing how i only got an hour or two of sleep here and there, i wasnt really that well rested. I started my clock going to line 4 at 11:45p. I did a 15 min pretrip, hooked, another 15, and just for the fun of it, showed 15 driving. So i was on line 3 at midnight-thirty. I knew when my 11 hours were up after i took a 2 hour nap (boy it sure helped), and was able to make it to El Paso with 5 min. (technically no time) left to spare for my 11, and i still wanted to top off before parking for my 10.

Did you? My Truckmiles program shows 627 miles and 12+ hours. Now, I don't BELIEVE that, given the speed limit in Texas. But, even at "night time speed limits" you should have had PLENTY of time. Did you include your "nap" into your 11 hours? You took a 2 hour nap. That goes against your 14, but NOT your 11. That leaves you 10:45 for driving within 14 hours from your "on duty" login at 11:45pm. i.e: You had to get there by 1:45pm the next day, and with no more than 11 hours total driving time. You "wasted" .5 hours on pretrip and hooking, and 2 hours napping. That left you with only 10:45 of driving time in 14 hours to go 627 miles (surely you DROVE a few miles during the 15 minutes you logged earlier on line 3.

So, you had 10:45 hours of driving time to go about 612 miles. That's an average of about 57 mph in a 65/70 mph state. Is your truck governed below 65mph? Or less than 60 mph for that matter?

Yes, you had to BE there (and stop driving) 14 hours after you went on duty. But, once you stopped driving, you had as much time as you needed to fuel, park,etc for the night.

My question is this, and i think i know the answer, but does your 11/14 hr clock start the moment you drop to line 4, yes?

The Rev almost had this right.... okay.... he had it right in his OWN way.

I would say, not exactly. Your 14 started when you first went "on duty." But, your 11 didn't start until you went to line 3. And ONLY includes time SPENT on line 3. But, you cannot spend any time on line 3 AFTER the end of your 14 hour clock without the required break.

The way i was told in school and by the log class i took, it does. How the guy teaching the log class said that you could be on line 4 for 24 hours....there is no limit to how many hours you can work on duty not driving (except when you reach your 70 for 8 days).

Your teacher was ALMOST correct. There is no limit to how long PAST your 14 hour point that you can work on line 4. However, he mislead you slightly. You can even work on line 4 PAST your 70 hour limit, as long as you don't DRVIE again without a 10 hour break.

You just cannot work more than 14, and then go to line 3 without a 10 hour break. (or doing your split sleeper thing).

Correct. You CAN work past your 14, but you can't DRIVE again until you've had your break. Of course, you can't work 13 either and then DRIVE again if you've exhausted your 11 hour driving limit.

guess the thing throwing me off now (more parinoid than anything i guess) is 'working' past my 14 on line 4. Like today, i had 30 min left to 'work' in my 14.

No, you didn't. You had all the time you NEEDED or wanted to work past your 14. The 14 hour "window" is NOT a limit on how many hours "we" can work in a day. It is a "limit" past which you cannot DRIVE without the required BREAK.

i didnt exceed that, so that isnt a question, but lets say the way i timed it, my 11 and 14 ended at exactly the same time, and i still needed to show a post trip and/or fuel?? can i still legally do it?

Yes. You can do anything you want AFTER the 14 hour "window" except DRIVE. You are not required to "shut down" after 14 hours on duty. Is that clear? Let me put it another way.... your combined time on line 3 AND 4 does NOT have to STOP at the end of 14 hours.

Guess my next purchase is paying for the full version of the Driver Daily Log program for my laptop. have it downloaded, just dont have the full 'purchased' version. Would save me from getting more violations, and would help me by flagging my 10, 11 and 14 hr benchmarks.

Whatever trips your trigger. Personally, I prefer to log my activities myself. I have no problem counting up to 14, and understanding the regs.

Caveat: I have never driven a truck that wouldn't do at least 65 or 70 mph. I suppose this logging thingie is more difficult for drivers of slower trucks. But, you had 11 hours of driving time.... WITHIN the 14 hour window..... to drive 627 miles total. That's STILL only a 57mph average. The COWS walk faster than that in TEXAS!!!

I know we all think that dispatchers are totally stoopid, but the fact is... they aren't. They have computers that tell them that a certain load CAN go a certain number of miles within LEGAL limits of the HOS and speed limits. That is their JOB! That is how they keep our economy running "Just in time." WE are supposed to HELP them, and our company, by doing our part!

I'm not saying to take a "hit" for them. I'm saying we should WORK with them IF it is a legal load! You need a nap? Fine! Work your logs around it! THEY may not have accounted for that need. Nor should WE expect them to.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.... OTR trucking is NOT for Wusses! That's what LOCAL jobs are for!

[Rev.Vassago]

The Rev almost had this right.... okay.... he had it right in his OWN way.

I would say, not exactly. Your 14 started when you first went "on duty." But, your 11 didn't start until you went to line 3. And ONLY includes time SPENT on line 3. But, you cannot spend any time on line 3 AFTER the end of your 14 hour clock without the required break.

You know, claiming that I "almost" had something right, then repeating what I already said just makes you look like a parrot.

And FYI:

Let me put it another way.... your combined time on line 3 AND 4 does NOT have to STOP at the end of 14 hours.

Wrong. You cannot be on line 3 after the 14 hour clock is used up.

[Uturn2001]

I want to clarify one point made here. Your 14 hour clock starts as soon as you drop to line 3 or 4. In other words as soon as you come on duty in any way, shape, or form.

or with a split sleeper berth.

Just be very, very careful if you choose to use the split sleeper provision. If you try to use it after a "full" day before getting a full 10 hour break in you could find yourself with a big HOS violation.

BTW: Before attempting to use a split sleeper berth you need to do two things.

1. Make sure you fully understand how it works and how to calculate all of your different hours.

2. Make sure the company you are driving for allows it. Because it is so easy to mess up there are some companies that do not allow it and will issue a log book violation (which is really a company policy violation).

[TomB985]

guess the thing throwing me off now (more parinoid than anything i guess) is 'working' past my 14 on line 4. Like today, i had 30 min left to 'work' in my 14. i didnt exceed that, so that isnt a question, but lets say the way i timed it, my 11 and 14 ended at exactly the same time, and i still needed to show a post trip and/or fuel?? can i still legally do it.

Kevin, this is not a stupid question at all. I have a friend who has been driving for 5 1/2 years who still doesn't get this one! He just can't seem to wrap the idea around his head that the 14 hour rule ONLY limits DRIVING time...not on duty not driving....

[BIG JEEP on 44's]

Kevin, this is not a stupid question at all. I have a friend who has been driving for 5 1/2 years who still doesn't get this one! He just can't seem to wrap the idea around his head that the 14 hour rule ONLY limits DRIVING time...not on duty not driving....

That happens because many drivers really are stupid , And I'm not joking when I say that . There are many drivers who have a good head on their shoulders , But unfortunately because it is so easy/quick to get a CDL and get hired on with a mega carrier you have drivers that often lack the basic Math skills to count change or do a log book . I think one thing that could help change this would be allowing a person only 1 chance every 6 months to a Year at passing the CDL basic knowledge tests at the DMV when obtaining the learners permit , maybe allowing them to be able to fail one of the tests 1x and retake it 1x if they almost passed it ,But none of these multple attempts in a week attempting to pass a test that is so easy it should be a 1 shot deal .

[golfhobo]

That happens because many drivers really are stupid , And I'm not joking when I say that . There are many drivers who have a good head on their shoulders , But unfortunately because it is so easy/quick to get a CDL and get hired on with a mega carrier you have drivers that often lack the basic Math skills to count change or do a log book . I think one thing that could help change this would be allowing a person only 1 chance every 6 months to a Year at passing the CDL basic knowledge tests at the DMV when obtaining the learners permit , maybe allowing them to be able to fail one of the tests 1x and retake it 1x if they almost passed it ,But none of these multple attempts in a week attempting to pass a test that is so easy it should be a 1 shot deal .

Funny.... I may be wrong, but I don't remember a SINGLE question on the "computerized" written CDL basic knowledge test that related to the 11/14 hour rules. Or MATH in general, for that matter.

Yes, there are truckers out there that didn't excel in math class. My own brother uses his fingers to count! (boy, was I surprised when I found THAT out!)

But, the 14 hour rule IS quite confusing. And split logging is even more so. I'm a friggin GENIUS and I make mistakes now and then, both in TALKING about it (as the Rev likes to point out) and even occasionally on my log sheet! (twice in 3.5 years IIRC.)

I don't see any NEED to ridicule American workers who put their lives on the line to drive trucks for not being mathematical geniuses. Nor for their sometimes limited use of the language. They are doing something that MANY Americans could never do! If I had to know how to fix the dang MOTOR, I might not be allowed to drive a truck! (I do understand most of it, but I ain't no mechanic!)

What is required MOSTLY here, is the ability to drive the thing, shift the gears, and back it into a dock! And more importantly, the sense to not run over the "mortals." Math is important yes.... but, it's not a deal breaker the way you imply.

[BIG JEEP on 44's]

Funny.... I may be wrong, but I don't remember a SINGLE question on the "computerized" written CDL basic knowledge test that related to the 11/14 hour rules. Or MATH in general, for that matter.

Yes, there are truckers out there that didn't excel in math class. My own brother uses his fingers to count! (boy, was I surprised when I found THAT out!)

But, the 14 hour rule IS quite confusing. And split logging is even more so. I'm a friggin GENIUS and I make mistakes now and then, both in TALKING about it (as the Rev likes to point out) and even occasionally on my log sheet! (twice in 3.5 years IIRC.)

I don't see any NEED to ridicule American workers who put their lives on the line to drive trucks for not being mathematical geniuses. Nor for their sometimes limited use of the language. They are doing something that MANY Americans could never do! If I had to know how to fix the dang MOTOR, I might not be allowed to drive a truck! (I do understand most of it, but I ain't no mechanic!)

What is required MOSTLY here, is the ability to drive the thing, shift the gears, and back it into a dock! And more importantly, the sense to not run over the "mortals." Math is important yes.... but, it's not a deal breaker the way you imply.

No hos are not on the basic skills test at the DMV ,but if you do not posess the basic intelligence to read/comprehend some very easy to remember material ,and then easily pass a ...multiple choice...style question test odds are you are going to have issues with everything else ...including the basic common sense portion involved in driving .

[Kevin0915]

yeah, that is what i ment...your 11 dont start till you start driving.

As far as going from Temple to El Paso, I actually showed driving 11 hours. and aside from that 2 hr nap, i did not take any breaks, it was 5.25hrs driving (nap) then 5.75hrs driving. 630 or some odd miles driven. comes out to 57-8ish?? I know that will be a redflag, but that is what i did. set the cruise...and kept it as 61-62, and kept it under 68 going down hill. =)

and as far as getting to Fresno tomorrow, it might not happen, because i am still in phoenix. took WAY longer than i planned to move into my new truck. and from PHX to FAT is 597. dont think i can make it there tomorrow anyways....looks like ill try finding a bowling alley 50-70 miles south.

what times was it not good to travel thru LA again? =)

[matcat]

It really isn't that complicated, split sleeper aside, and assuming a 10 hr break, the second you go on duty you got 14 hours, out of which you may not drive more then 11. Picture a box 14 inches wide, with another box 11 inches wide, as long as that box is inside of the bigger box, your good, you can cut it up, keep it in one block, whatever, it just has to stay inside the box, it cannot hang out of the box in any way. As far as line 4 goes, there is no limit to it, just make sure you don't go over 11 hours of drive time in the first 14 hours of total on duty time. That's all there is to it.

And for those interested in split sleeper, just remember it HAS to be logged in the sleeper unlike a 10 hr or a 34, you cannot break it up between 1 and 2. Really isn't much use for a split sleeper anyway, only time I have ever used it is when I had to get somewhere, and I didn't have 10 hours to wait, but I could wait 8 hours, which has only ever been twice.

[Orangetxguy]

yeah, that is what i ment...your 11 dont start till you start driving.

As far as going from Temple to El Paso, I actually showed driving 11 hours. and aside from that 2 hr nap, i did not take any breaks, it was 5.25hrs driving (nap) then 5.75hrs driving. 630 or some odd miles driven. comes out to 57-8ish?? I know that will be a redflag, but that is what i did. set the cruise...and kept it as 61-62, and kept it under 68 going down hill. =)

and as far as getting to Fresno tomorrow, it might not happen, because i am still in phoenix. took WAY longer than i planned to move into my new truck. and from PHX to FAT is 597. dont think i can make it there tomorrow anyways....looks like ill try finding a bowling alley 50-70 miles south.

what times was it not good to travel thru LA again? =)

If your going to Fresno....why would you go through LA??

West on I-10 to Tonopah's second exit...there where the Tomohawk Truckstop is (exit 71?), turn right off the exit, go to the end of the road and turn left on Hiway 60, go to Hiway 72 turn right onto 72 and run across to Parker AZ and US95, run US95 up to I-40, then west to Barstow. Hop on Hiway 58, run that on up through Tehachapi and drop down into Bakersfield and Hiway 99, run on north to Fresno. 7 and 1/4 hours...give or take. Keep the door closed...7 & 1/4.

[Kevin0915]

If your going to Fresno....why would you go through LA??

West on I-10 to Tonopah's second exit...there where the Tomohawk Truckstop is (exit 71?), turn right off the exit, go to the end of the road and turn left on Hiway 60, go to Hiway 72 turn right onto 72 and run across to Parker AZ and US95, run US95 up to I-40, then west to Barstow. Hop on Hiway 58, run that on up through Tehachapi and drop down into Bakersfield and Hiway 99, run on north to Fresno. 7 and 1/4 hours...give or take. Keep the door closed...7 & 1/4.

well from my distance calculator, it shows 597 mi from PHX to Fresno. My fuel route has be going I-10 to the 210 then up I-5. I stop in Fontana to top off. Thats prob. why they have me going thru LA. didnt know where Fontana was till just now when i looked it up. 'burb of LA.

[matcat]

well from my distance calculator, it shows 597 mi from PHX to Fresno. My fuel route has be going I-10 to the 210 then up I-5. I stop in Fontana to top off. Thats prob. why they have me going thru LA. didnt know where Fontana was till just now when i looked it up. 'burb of LA.

FYI Swift has a yard in Fontana :P

[Kevin0915]

FYI Swift has a yard in Fontana :P

I wouldnt call that a yard. I'd call that a cross between a run down Petro and an up scale Pilot. =)

oh...just came out of the mountians north of LA on I-5 heading to Fresno. Stopped at the TA there.....now is that "THE grapevine" everyone talks about?? Thought the grapevine was in oregon? or is that the cabbage patch...or something......lol

[matcat]

I wouldnt call that a yard. I'd call that a cross between a run down Petro and an up scale Pilot. =)

oh...just came out of the mountians north of LA on I-5 heading to Fresno. Stopped at the TA there.....now is that "THE grapevine" everyone talks about?? Thought the grapevine was in oregon? or is that the cabbage patch...or something......lol

Yeah I've been there, and I wouldn't compare any swift yard to a truck stop at all :P.

[bentstrider]

I wouldnt call that a yard. I'd call that a cross between a run down Petro and an up scale Pilot. =)

oh...just came out of the mountians north of LA on I-5 heading to Fresno. Stopped at the TA there.....now is that "THE grapevine" everyone talks about?? Thought the grapevine was in oregon? or is that the cabbage patch...or something......lol

Grapevine's the 5 between Castaic and Fresno, so you got it right.

The "Cabbage Patch" is the 84 WB going through Eastern Oregon.

And Fontana was pretty much a waste once that extended backlot was cut.

Man, hopefully those hiring freezes are lifted and the apps will be reviewed, I'm missing this.

[Kevin0915]

Grapevine's the 5 between Castaic and Fresno, so you got it right.

The "Cabbage Patch" is the 84 WB going through Eastern Oregon.

And Fontana was pretty much a waste once that extended backlot was cut.

Man, hopefully those hiring freezes are lifted and the apps will be reviewed, I'm missing this.

came thru there again, with a load from Fresno to Pomona yesterday. ALOT better weather, and the scenery was even better. Lucky i didnt run into any super bad weather. The first trip thru on monday? i had just missed getting some snow. By the time i got up there, you could still see snow on the shoulder, but the road surface was slightly wet.

one thing that got me was the brake check area both ways was closed.

[Syncrosonix]

why in the hell did you stop at the t/a? should have driven half a mile west on laval road to the petro. that petro is the best in the entire country.

the brake check areas along the grapevine aren't mandatory. the one along westbound i-80 through donner pass is mandatory.