[Matt777]

Hello all, I have a problem thats worrying me like hell. Im having some days that I have trouble counting up my hours and dont know the TRUE totals. I also dont fully understand that 14 hour rule entirely. SO basically, I run for a company that uses paper logs, and my trainer explained to me that whatever OFF DUTY time you have built up, you can drive THAT much past your original end time? Im confused about alot of stuff concerning logs. Its a wonder how Im out here doing it as well as I am. PLEASE help and explain this to me as I dont want to get in trouble for log issues. This is my second week out on my own. Thank you and would appreciate comments about "how I shouldnt be driving if I dont understand logs" stay in the heads of some negative people that may just surface. I just need help. thanks!

[Mr. Ford95]

Matt, you can't ask your company? If your trainer did not fully help you understand it then why is he even training, does the company know he isn't teaching much and teaching wrong?

While I don't run a log book because I punch a time clock everyday I'm pretty certain that 14 hours on duty MEANS 14 hours on duty. It's non-negotiable just because you have some time left over from the day before. You can only drive 11 hours inside that 14 hour on duty clock before you must stop, if you hit your 14 hour clock but are only at 10 hours of driving, you must stop also. You cannot keep going because you have time built up or still have an hour of drive time left. I'll let some of the others explain the 70 hour rule, I know very little about it.

[tinytim]

Counting up the hours can be a pain but keeping a neat log book helps. I'm not sure how you could be unable to count the hours and know the TRUE totals unless you're not keeping your book up to date.

The 70 hour rule is easy if you do a recap each day. I think most log books have a grid for that. You can work as many as 70 hours in each 8 days. So what you do is add up all the hours for the last 7 days. Say it was 61 hours you worked in the last 7 days. Subtract that from 70 and you will have 9 hours that you can work.

14 hours is the amount of time you have once you start your day. In that 14 hours you can drive as many as 11 hours. But, if you don't reach 11 within 14 hours then you can't drive anymore until you have a 10 hour break. So your 'trainer' wrong.

Everyone learns differently but once it clicks logging isn't hard. It might help to look at some examples. FMCSA has a bunch of them here.

[Malaki86]

It's simple:

Once your 14hr clock starts, it does not stop for any reason until you have done 10hrs on either line 1 or 2, or a combination of the 2. Period.

Meaning, if you start your day @ 6am, you must be finished by 8pm that day. It doesn't matter if you took 7 hours off duty (or sleeper). Your time still runs out at 8pm.

[Fozzy]

The rules are pretty simple as long as you don't listen to people who want to bend them. The bottom like is that ALL of the HOS rules are about access to the steering wheel (Driving).

14 hour rule - this is what set the new hours apart from the old rules. Once you log in or start duty, the 14 hour clock starts... There is NO restarting the clock.. once it starts, it can only be reset with a 10 hour break or a 34 hour restart. After 14 hours on duty you cannot DRIVE again until you get a 10 hour break in (or 34 hour restart of course)

11 hour rule- you may DRIVE 11 hours in that 14 hour "window". Once you get to 11 hours driving time, you may not DRIVE anymore until you get a 10 hour break in. You can still WORK as long as it doesn't include driving.

[golfhobo]

Matt777 said:

Hello all, I have a problem thats worrying me like hell. Im having some days that I have trouble counting up my hours and dont know the TRUE totals.

Like others said... if you are keeping your logbook correctly, adding up the totals should be no problem. Of course, only lines 3 & 4 combine to give you your total hours worked for that 24 HR period. This becomes part of your recap.

I also don't fully understand that 14 hour rule entirely.

There are several good threads on this in the Rules, Regs & Dac forum, but.... they are buried way back there and the search function sux. We SHOULD have had some of them made into "stickies." I will try to help you as best I can after some things are cleared up.

SO basically, I run for a company that uses paper logs, and my trainer explained to me that whatever OFF DUTY time you have built up, you can drive THAT much past your original end time?

I think paper logs are best to learn on, and I still prefer them. However... what your trainer said makes very little sense to most of us! UNLESS... you are being trained to do "split logging." He's probably (definitely?) still wrong... but, I need to know WHAT he is trying to explain to you. EITHER he is teaching you the OLD RULES where ANY off duty time extended your "duty window" (which used to be 15 hrs, I think...) or he is trying to explain how an 8 hr "sleeper berth" break DOES... in fact.... extend the 14 hour duty window within which you can STILL only drive 11 hours (and the ONLY "off duty" time that can extend that clock... or "original end time" IS an 8 hour sleeper berth break.)

Im confused about alot of stuff concerning logs. Its a wonder how I'm out here doing it as well as I am. PLEASE help and explain this to me as I don't want to get in trouble for log issues. This is my second week out on my own. Thank you and would appreciate comments about "how I shouldn't be driving if I don't understand logs" stay in the heads of some negative people that may just surface. I just need help. thanks!

Well.... I would say that, but not in a negative way or to put you down. MOST drivers don't fully understand log rules. But, the thing is... it can COST you big bucks if you don't get it right! Like Mr. Ford... I don't understand why your "company" or CDL school didn't teach you fully and correctly. Could you give us some background on this? Did you get your CDL thru a school... or through a training company? [just curious.]

Point is... the number of hours of "off duty" time (saved up? or otherwise) is NEVER a "one to one" determiner of how many hours you can drive... let alone AFTER your "end time." So... again... WHAT is he really saying to you?

The 14 Hour Clock (or duty window):

1) Has NO relation to the midnight hour, or what page of your logbook it started or ended on.

2) Starts when you begin your pre-trip (or go on line 4) and is a "window" within which you can only drive 11 hours.

3) Cannot be extended by ANY line 1 time, regardless of length. Anything LESS than 10 hours (on line 1) counts against the "duty window" ... and a full 10 hours would restart the clock.

4) CAN be "extended" by split logging and ONLY by a sleeper berth break of 8 hours or more. 7 hours in the sleeper is no better than ANY time logged on line 1.

5) Does NOT indicate an "end time" to line 4 duty hours. You can work ON LINE 4 as long as you want past your "original end time" as long as you don't DRIVE again until you've fulfilled the 10 hour break period which can be done all at once... OR... as an 8 & 2 "split." [All this time goes against your 70 hour clock.]

6) Regardless of whether or not you extend your duty window with an 8 hour sleeper berth break... you STILL can only drive 11 hours during that window before completing the 10 hour break with say... an off duty entry of more than 2 hours.

Okay... I know that sounds confusing. I will try to clear it up as we go along. Maybe some examples will help:

EX 1: You go on duty at 10 p.m. and don't start driving until 11 p.m. Your "duty window" ends at noon the following day. You can easily get in the 11 hours of driving by then... unless you stop and take a 4 hour nap in the sleeper (or go play video games, shower and eat for a similar amount of time on line 1.) Since NONE of this "off duty" time (or the 1 hour pretrip/wait period) qualifies to "extend" the window... you will ONLY be able to drive a total of 9 hours. Then you MUST take 10 hours off duty to restart the window/clock. [You could "extend" it with an 8 hour sleeper berth break... but you would ONLY have 2 more hours to drive before having to take 2 hours off duty to complete the "10 Hr. break."] You can ONLY drive a total of 11 hours on BOTH sides of any "qualifying" break when split logging.

EX 2: Same start time. You drive for 6 hours (until 5 a.m.) and then take 2 hours off for breakfast and a shower. Your 14 Hr clock STILL ends at noon... but, you can still get in the remaining 5 hours of driving time by then. [14-1-2=11]

EX 3: Same start time, same 1 hour pre-trip/loading, same 6 hour initial drive time, etc. This time, you only take 1 hour off duty for breakfast. You can STILL only drive 5 more hours even tho that totals only 13 hours of your "duty window." You start your 10 hour break one hour short of the end of your 14 hr clock. NEW 14 hour clock starts 10 hours later at 9 p.m.

EX 4: Everything the same as EX 3, but this time you arrive at your delivery at 11 a.m. and go on line 4 to assist in the unloading for say... 2 hours. It's now 1 p.m. (an hour AFTER your clock expired.) No problem... you can work PAST your 14 hour "window" as long as it is only on line 4. You just can't DRIVE past the end of your 14 hour clock (regardless of how many hours you didn't drive. Those driving hours are LOST.) And your new clock starts 10 hours later at 11 p.m.

EX 5: This is the [first] "split logging" example, and MAY be what your trainer was trying to explain (though he was still wrong.) Go back to EX 2 (where you took a full 2 hr line 1 break.) A full 2 hour break on line 1 (or a "consecutive" combination of line 1 & 2) is a "qualifying" break for the "split" 10 hour break. You still have the 5 hours to drive since it falls within the 14 hour window (and the 2 hour break does NOT extend the window by itself.) You arrive at the delivery at noon (at the end of your 14 hour clock) and are not scheduled to hit a dock for the next 8 hours. You log into the SLEEPER on line 2. You MUST get at least 8 hours in the sleeper to "qualify," but if you do.... you can then come out of the sleeper and unload for whatever time it takes (although this line 4 time counts towards your "next" window.) You have now satisfied the "combined" 10 hour break, and if using split logging, you can roll as soon as they are done with you.

Your NEW 14 hour clock now starts at the END of that first 2 hour "qualifying" break (because you took the other part of 8 hours in the sleeper) ... or 7 a.m. but is "extended" by the 8 hours in the sleeper. NOW your 14 hour window expires at 7 a.m. + 14 + 8 hours (OFF the clock) = 5 a.m. the next morning! But... you already DROVE 5 hours on THAT "11 hour driving clock" (since the 2 hour break) and can ONLY drive another 6 before taking another 2 hour "qualifying" break. When "split logging," your clock restarts at the END of the LAST "qualifying" break, once you've taken the other part of the 10 hours, and STILL only allows you a total of 11 hours driving time between "every other break." Does that make sense?

Ex 6: [Second split logging example:] Same start time and 1 hour wait/loading time. Same 6 hours driving time before a break. But... you aren't DUE until sometime the following day, and you didn't get much sleep before going on duty. You can take the 8 hour "sleeper break" first (which EXTENDS your duty window by 8 hours,) and you can still drive the other 5 hours... arriving at your destination at... 10 p.m + 1 + 6 + 8 + 5 = 6 p.m. A full 20 hours after first going on duty, you've driven the same 11 hours, but your "14 hour window" expanded to 20 hours!

It all works out the same [but, there are some advantages based on delivery schedules and rush hour considerations.] But, you don't HAVE to drive 11 hours straight and THEN take your 10. But, only an 8 hour sleeper break extends the 14 hour clock, and regardless.... you don't get EXTRA driving hours for ANY off duty hours! ... and CERTAINLY not past your 14 hour window.

If I have confused you, I apologize. I tried to make it as simple as possible but, the HOS rules are NOT that simple to understand. Perhaps, if I knew your specific problem I could make things simpler. I DO want to be of help if I can. And, I think I can.

Because of the monetary penalties for anyone who has NOT been trained properly, [I paid about $500 for a mistake... and I KNEW what I was doing] ... I am more than willing to try to help you the best I can... WITHOUT any disparaging remarks.

BTW... welcome to the board (a bit late as you joined the same year I started trucking,) and let us know if we can help YOU in any way to become a successful Trucker!

[golfhobo]

Fozzy said:

The rules are pretty simple as long as you don't listen to people who want to bend them. The bottom like is that ALL of the HOS rules are about access to the steering wheel (Driving).

If I'd known that Fozzy would chime in, I might have stayed out of this. I agree that the rules are about DRIVING time.

14 hour rule - this is what set the new hours apart from the old rules. Once you log in or start duty, the 14 hour clock starts... There is NO restarting the clock.. once it starts, it can only be reset with a 10 hour break or a 34 hour restart. After 14 hours on duty you cannot DRIVE again until you get a 10 hour break in (or 34 hour restart of course)

Of course, he is not addressing the "extension" of the clock by an 8 hour sleeper berth break. An 8 hour sleeper berth break does not actually "restart" the 14 hour clock... but, it can certainly EXTEND it. 8 hours in the sleeper is ALWAYS "off the clock" regardless of ANY other factors.

11 hour rule- you may DRIVE 11 hours in that 14 hour "window". Once you get to 11 hours driving time, you may not DRIVE anymore until you get a 10 hour break in. You can still WORK as long as it doesn't include driving.

I'm sure Fozzy understands the split sleeper option. He just chooses NOT to explain the "extension" option afforded by "splitting" that 10 hour break into an 8 and 2 option. [After making MY attempt... I don't blame him. Nor do I blame companies who avoid trying to "train" their drivers in how to use it.]

I'm sure we BOTH agree that, in ALL cases.... driving time cannot be extended by ANY "off duty" hours saved up.

[Matt777]

Thank you all guys for your input and insight. MR Ford, I am going to talk to the fleet owners in the morning. I was just afraid I would have to go back to training status where I was making 5cents a mile. I wanted to try and get help elsewhere before I would have to get put back in a truck with my old trainer. and Im Still getting 5 cents per mile checks from training, so I guess it doesnt matter anyway. I appreciate all that info, GolfHobo, I really do. See, I went through school with a training company, and I thought that I understood well enough and I seemed to be doing okay with my trainer. Truth is, I dont know If im doing this stuff correctly sometimes. Like I told MR Ford, Im afraid of being put back into training where Im making 100 dollar checks a week, and so on.

[Fozzy]

The safest thing for new drivers is to forget the sleeper berth option at least until they have a real solid grasp on the basics. I have never used the sleeper berth extension as it usually just put the next duty day into a shambles.. if a driver knows and follows the 11/14/70 rule, they will be a heck of a lot better off in the long run.. As for that trainer.. wouldn't be the first time that I've heard that one of them had no idea what he was doing... nor cared to. If the "trainer" was interested only in the miles that the trainee's log book could generate for him.. He should have stuck to working at McDonalds.

[golfhobo]

Matt777 said:

Thank you all guys for your input and insight.

That's what we are here for. And the most "personal support" of any board I can imagine being part of.

MR Ford, I am going to talk to the fleet owners in the morning. I was just afraid I would have to go back to training status where I was making 5 cents a mile. I wanted to try and get help elsewhere before I would have to get put back in a truck with my old trainer. and Im Still getting 5 cents per mile checks from training, so I guess it doesnt matter anyway.

Training pay, with any of the mega-carriers, who visited my school, is better than most jobs "at home," but.. should NOT be considered anything LESS than the "entry level" pay that it is. The FIRST thing to do is to get to "full pay."

I appreciate all that info, GolfHobo, I really do.

I sure HOPE so! LOL. I put a LOT of effort into it! [Wink]

When I was in school, I considered all that "training pay" stuff with the various companies that visited. It really wasn't such a problem, as I understood it. But... NO driver should have to work for "training wages" after he has gotten his CDL and/or done a few "runs" across the road!

See, I went through school with a training company, and I thought that I understood well enough and I seemed to be doing okay with my trainer. Truth is, I dont know If im doing this stuff correctly sometimes.

You are out there on your own... maybe, for the first time in your life. You're in charge of an 80k lb "missile" that can KILL... or can "survive." And, on top of that.... you have to keep accurate records to save your butt! It's normal to be a little nervous about things.

Like I told MR Ford, Im afraid of being put back into training where Im making 100 dollar checks a week, and so on.

Everyone HAS to start somewhere... but, NONE of us will accept being paid "trainee" wages any longer than is absolutely necessary. Like someone said... check with safety dept to see if you are being trained properly on logging. I doubt they would put you back with a trainer if the trainer was the problem.