log book & bracketing ?

[mccfry]

My over the road trainer told me not to worry about bracketing, “it’s not important”. When I was finished with training and brought my log book into the o.c. I got reamed for not bracketing, and I was told I had close to $2000 worth of fines, if I was caught by d.o.t. ; what’s the truth ? Is bracketing that important or are the trainers in the o.c. making a bigger issue than what it is.

[Rev.Vassago]

My over the road trainer told me not to worry about bracketing, “it’s not important”. When I was finished with training and brought my log book into the o.c. I got reamed for not bracketing, and I was told I had close to $2000 worth of fines, if I was caught by d.o.t. ; what’s the truth ? Is bracketing that important or are the trainers in the o.c. making a bigger issue than what it is.

What exactly do you mean by "bracketing"?

[Jumbo]

I think what he means are the little u shaped "brackets" that you attach your flag line to to show that from 12:15 to 12:30 you were in such and snd such a place.

[matcat]

I never did it.

[Rev.Vassago]

If that is the case, here's what the regs state:

§395.8 Driver's record of duty status.

(h)(5) Location - Remarks. The name of the city, town, or village, with State abbreviation where each change of duty status occurs shall be recorded.

Note: If a change of duty status occurs at a location other than a city, town, or village, show one of the following: (1) the highway number and nearest milepost followed by the name of the nearest city, town, or village and State abbreviation, (2) the highway number and the name of the service plaza followed by the name of the nearest city, town, or village and State abbreviation, or (3) the highway numbers of the nearest two intersecting roadways followed by the name of the nearest city, town, or village and State abbreviation.

As long as you are recording the city and state where a status change occurs, then you are in compliance. There is no FMCSA requirement that you even show what you were doing there. The grid graph clearly shows how long you were there, so "bracketing" would be redundant.

[Double R]

My over the road trainer told me not to worry about bracketing, “it’s not important”. When I was finished with training and brought my log book into the o.c. I got reamed for not bracketing, and I was told I had close to $2000 worth of fines, if I was caught by d.o.t. ; what’s the truth ? Is bracketing that important or are the trainers in the o.c. making a bigger issue than what it is.

Most likely that is a company policy. As the Rev pointed out, it is not required by the DOT.

The compnay I work DOES require us to do it, but that is company policy.

[matcat]

My over the road trainer told me not to worry about bracketing, “it’s not important”. When I was finished with training and brought my log book into the o.c. I got reamed for not bracketing, and I was told I had close to $2000 worth of fines, if I was caught by d.o.t. ; what’s the truth ? Is bracketing that important or are the trainers in the o.c. making a bigger issue than what it is.

Most likely that is a company policy. As the Rev pointed out, it is not required by the DOT.

The compnay I work DOES require us to do it, but that is company policy.

These companies make you do it because either A they feel you are too stupid to actually look at the line above, or B they are too stupid to look at the line above, or C think the DOT are too stupid to look at the line above :P

[Double R]

My over the road trainer told me not to worry about bracketing, “it’s not important”. When I was finished with training and brought my log book into the o.c. I got reamed for not bracketing, and I was told I had close to $2000 worth of fines, if I was caught by d.o.t. ; what’s the truth ? Is bracketing that important or are the trainers in the o.c. making a bigger issue than what it is.

Most likely that is a company policy. As the Rev pointed out, it is not required by the DOT.

The compnay I work DOES require us to do it, but that is company policy.

These companies make you do it because either A they feel you are too stupid to actually look at the line above, or B they are too stupid to look at the line above, or C think the DOT are too stupid to look at the line above :P

Or D, safety is anal

I chose D for my company's safety dept.

[headborg]

Yes, bracketing is not required-- it's a throw back to "old school" days-- no longer required-- it used to be used because the regs stated that each and every change of duty- had to be flagged and was used to reduce the need to draw all those redundant lines- example you flag where you go off duty then bracket to where you return to drive line- as opposed to drawing another line and reduntant info- same location where you stopped.

Read the FMCSA guidance questions- it states what can be omitted- including all vertical connecting lines- if you really wanted to mess with em.

You only need to notate- fuel, dot inspections, accidents, any thing like medical exams, drug tests, and the post trip inspection---- i.e stuff the federal government is tracking for TAX purposes(fuel)+DOT stuff.-- any of the above that is done in less than 7.5 minutes needs to flag with the exact amont of time involved.

[Rev.Vassago]

Sorry to break it to you, but most of your information is wrong.

it used to be used because the regs stated that each and every change of duty- had to be flagged and was used to reduce the need to draw all those redundant lines- example you flag where you go off duty then bracket to where you return to drive line- as opposed to drawing another line and reduntant info- same location where you stopped.

The regs clearly state (and have always stated) that every change of duty status must have a city and state notated for it:

395.8(h)(5) Location - Remarks. The name of the city, town, or village, with State abbreviation where each change of duty status occurs shall be recorded.

You only need to notate- fuel, dot inspections, accidents, any thing like medical exams, drug tests, and the post trip inspection---- i.e stuff the federal government is tracking for TAX purposes(fuel)+DOT stuff.

Again, I would refer you to the above regulation, which states that each change of duty status must have a city and state recorded for it.

- any of the above that is done in less than 7.5 minutes needs to flag with the exact amont of time involved.

The regulations aren't so strict:

Question 1: How should a change of duty status for a short period of time be shown on the driver's record of duty status?

Guidance: Short periods of time (less than 15 minutes) may be identified by drawing a line from the appropriate on-duty (not driving) or driving line to the remarks section and entering the amount of time, such as "6 minutes," and the geographic location of the duty status change.

If something takes you 14 minutes, then it can be flagged. There is no magic "7.5 minute" mark, where flagging is no longer allowed. This is a common misconception.

[BigDiesel]

I have " bracketed " since day 1. Have had logs reviewed by CHP and ODOT and never a issue. But I also have never had a OOS violation or logbook violation either.

[Rev.Vassago]

I'm waiting for golfhobo to come along and claim that the FMCSA, when coming up with the flagging provision, had 7.5 minutes in mind as the "spirit" of the rule.

[headborg]

The regs clearly state (and have always stated) that every change of duty status must have a city and state notated for it:

395.8(h)(5) Location - Remarks. The name of the city, town, or village, with State abbreviation where each change of duty status occurs shall be recorded.

You only need to notate- fuel, dot inspections, accidents, any thing like medical exams, drug tests, and the post trip inspection---- i.e stuff the federal government is tracking for TAX purposes(fuel)+DOT stuff.

Again, I would refer you to the above regulation, which states that each change of duty status must have a city and state recorded for it.


The regulations aren't so strict:

Question 1: How should a change of duty status for a short period of time be shown on the driver's record of duty status?

Guidance: Short periods of time (less than 15 minutes) may be identified by drawing a line from the appropriate on-duty (not driving) or driving line to the remarks section and entering the amount of time, such as "6 minutes," and the geographic location of the duty status change.

If something takes you 14 minutes, then it can be flagged. There is no magic "7.5 minute" mark, where flagging is no longer allowed. This is a common misconception.

One area here where you seem to have made a mistaken interpertation-- is of the term "flagging";

drawing a line and indicating a change of duty status- where, i.e. location
is not what "flagging" is concerned with.

flagging is where you describe what "on duty" work was preformed which did not take an entire 15 minutes.

It's in the Guidance that you referred to above-- as to what has to be "flagged"( ie. described) and what doesn't have to be "flagged"

example: you have to draw a line indicating a change of duty when you arrive at said Shipper/receiver por in the AM when you start your 14hours--
you do not have to write-- Pre-trip inspection or "doors and Back"--
but Post Trip Inspection is required by DOT --"at the end of your driving"
and must at least be ---"flagged"

again in the old days-- when you had "full service" fueling--- it was common place to "flag"---"fuel by attendant" and not even show any on-duty not driving time at all----- this is where the requirement that fueling still has to at least be Flagged and can't be omitted.


I'll keep searching for the data that states-- that brackets are no longer required or the redundant marking of coming back on duty and drawing those second lines with the exact information as the first.

[golfhobo]

I know the correct answer (because I'm psychic) but, dare I GO there? No need for another 7 page argument over it!

Once again, the first few answers are at least PARTIALLY wrong. The Rev is PARTIALLY right, but doesn't address the question. Heck, his FIRST post shows that he doesn't even understand the TERM "bracketing" as it concerns the RODS. I guess he taught himself everything he knows!

Y'all have fun confusing each other, ya hear? :wink:

To the O.P: Unless you want to make redundant entries at the beginning and END of each change of duty period, (often only 15 mins,) you need to bracket. I don't know about those FINES, though! There IS a penalty for not having a complete RODS for the last 7 days. It cost me $435 once in AZ!

Once again, it comes down to the requirements of "scannable logs." :wink:

Addendum: Before I could post this, I read the REV's latest smart remark. Actually, Rev.... there is no "magic" number of 7.5 minutes! We AGREE on this one! ANY time less than the 15 minute "partition" of the RODS can be logged with ONLY a "flag" and a remark concerning the time spent. But, IF you show the whole 15 minute block.... you EITHER have to FLAG both change points and make a redundant remark..... OR, you can make ONE flag with remarks at the beginning, and BRACKET the entire 15 minute block.

Personally, I choose NOT to repeat myself in the remarks section, let alone try to squeeze them both into such a small space!

Go FISH!!

[Rev.Vassago]

One area here where you seem to have made a mistaken interpertation-- is of the term "flagging";

drawing a line and indicating a change of duty status- where, i.e. location
is not what "flagging" is concerned with.

I'm quite aware of that.

flagging is where you describe what "on duty" work was preformed which did not take an entire 15 minutes.

It's in the Guidance that you referred to above-- as to what has to be "flagged"( ie. described) and what doesn't have to be "flagged"

example: you have to draw a line indicating a change of duty when you arrive at said Shipper/receiver por in the AM when you start your 14hours--
you do not have to write-- Pre-trip inspection or "doors and Back"--
but Post Trip Inspection is required by DOT --"at the end of your driving"
and must at least be ---"flagged"

Yes, you aren't telling me anything I don't know.

again in the old days-- when you had "full service" fueling--- it was common place to "flag"---"fuel by attendant" and not even show any on-duty not driving time at all----- this is where the requirement that fueling still has to at least be Flagged and can't be omitted.

Once again, any change of duty status must be notated in the remarks section, no matter how long it takes. But only a duty status change of 15 minutes or more must be shown in the time sheet portion of the log. The "7.5 minute" rule you claimed does not exist.

[Rev.Vassago]

The Rev is PARTIALLY right, but doesn't address the question.

No, I am completely right, and the regulation I posted supports me. Any duty status change must be notated with a city and state in the remarks section. If it is not, then the log is not up to the FMCSA standards. The OP's company claimed that this had to be done by "bracketing" (which BTW does not appear in the FMCSA regulations at all). While it can be done by bracketing, it doesn't need to be done that way.

DDL does not use bracketing. It lists the city and state for every duty status change. It certainly could use brackets, but there is no requirement to use it.

Heck, his FIRST post shows that he doesn't even understand the TERM "bracketing" as it concerns the RODS. I guess he taught himself everything he knows!

Where does the term appear in the FMCSA regs?

Addendum: Before I could post this, I read the REV's latest smart remark. Actually, Rev.... there is no "magic" number of 7.5 minutes! We AGREE on this one!

No we don't. You agree with ME. That is something you should do more often.

[headborg]

Ok, how about a real world example:

your company requires you to log 15minutes for fueling.

you pull into a pilot at 2am in Walcott, Ia- with the card reader at the pump+fuel and go + high volume sat pumps--- it takes you exactly 5 minutes to pump 75gallons of fuel-- then you blaze out of town....
I know it can be done-- I've timed myself.

so, how do you log that? do you falsify your logs to please the company?

do you "flag" by drawing the line---Walcott, Ia then "flag" below the line:
Fuelling : 5 minutes

See, it's in the guidence-- Fuel has to be flagged

You can't simply draw a line(change of duty)--- Walcott, Ia

Correct: the 7.5 rounding is just a common practice. But, most companies are not going to let you round 14 minutes down to just a "flag"
especially if it's a DOT Level-3 paperwork inspection

Been there- done that too/ you can be in & out of South Dakota scale house in 11minutes flat with a level-3 and you have to log the exact time/15minutes min. per the officer.... even if it didn't take that long!


how about: what if
Sto's Stop Mt. Vernon, Mo (the Sinclair) reopened and offered --fuel by attendant + cleaned your windshield for you while you stood around inside getting a deli sandwitch and flirt with the young girls working there....
How do you log that?

[Rev.Vassago]

Ok, how about a real world example:

your company requires you to log 15minutes for fueling.

you pull into a pilot at 2am in Walcott, Ia- with the card reader at the pump+fuel and go + high volume sat pumps--- it takes you exactly 5 minutes to pump 75gallons of fuel-- then you blaze out of town....
I know it can be done-- I've timed myself.

so, how do you log that? do you falsify your logs to please the company?

If your company requires that you show 15 minutes for fueling, then you better make that fueling take 15 minutes.

do you "flag" by drawing the line---Walcott, Ia then "flag" below the line:
Fuelling : 5 minutes

That wouldn't satisfy the company's requirements :wink:

See, it's in the guidence-- Fuel has to be flagged

You can't simply draw a line(change of duty)--- Walcott, Ia

You most certainly can.



Perfectly legal, and follows the FMCSA regulations to a "T".

Correct: the 7.5 rounding is just a common practice. But, most companies are not going to let you round 14 minutes down to just a "flag"
especially if it's a DOT Level-3 paperwork inspection

Common practice or not, it isn't what the FMCSA regulations state. It would pass a DOT paperwork inspection, because it follows the FMCSA regulations. If, however, you are showing every one of your fuels as 14 minutes, you had better be prepared for your logs to be looked at extra carefully.

how about: what if
Sto's Stop Mt. Vernon, Mo (the Sinclair) reopened and offered --fuel by attendant + cleaned your windshield for you while you stood around inside getting a deli sandwitch and flirt with the young girls working there....
How do you log that?

On Duty (not driving). You haven't been relieved of duty by the Motor Carrier.

[headborg]

Ok, how about a real world example:

your company requires you to log 15minutes for fueling.

you pull into a pilot at 2am in Walcott, Ia- with the card reader at the pump+fuel and go + high volume sat pumps--- it takes you exactly 5 minutes to pump 75gallons of fuel-- then you blaze out of town....
I know it can be done-- I've timed myself.

so, how do you log that? do you falsify your logs to please the company?

If your company requires that you show 15 minutes for fueling, then you better make that fueling take 15 minutes.

do you "flag" by drawing the line---Walcott, Ia then "flag" below the line:
Fuelling : 5 minutes

That wouldn't satisfy the company's requirements :wink:

See, it's in the guidence-- Fuel has to be flagged

You can't simply draw a line(change of duty)--- Walcott, Ia

You most certainly can.



Perfectly legal, and follows the FMCSA regulations to a "T".

Correct: the 7.5 rounding is just a common practice. But, most companies are not going to let you round 14 minutes down to just a "flag"
especially if it's a DOT Level-3 paperwork inspection

Common practice or not, it isn't what the FMCSA regulations state. It would pass a DOT paperwork inspection, because it follows the FMCSA regulations. If, however, you are showing every one of your fuels as 14 minutes, you had better be prepared for your logs to be looked at extra carefully.

how about: what if
Sto's Stop Mt. Vernon, Mo (the Sinclair) reopened and offered --fuel by attendant + cleaned your windshield for you while you stood around inside getting a deli sandwitch and flirt with the young girls working there....
How do you log that?

On Duty (not driving). You haven't been relieved of duty by the Motor Carrier.

In your exampe above: where did you NOTE the purchase of fuel? did you even flag the words Fuel at all?

And yes, I have been relieved of duty by my motor carrier per their written permission for coffee breaks, short rest periods(lunch breaks- etc at least every 4 hours)

But, some notation of Fuel must be there on the log.

[matcat]

Rev and GH, you two take something so simple, and turn it into one big super confusing mess