economy?

If all you are doing is stocking shelves, or running a cash register it isn't a skill.

Nor is holding a steering wheel.

[kc0iv]

I hate to break it to anyone drinking the Koolaid on the education rant the government is on. You can have the best education in the world, but if there isn't an economy or jobs waiting for you when your done what good was all that schooling?

Longsnowsm

Looking at the ranking of major higher education the U.S.A. dropped from #1 to #10 in students attaining a higher education for 25-34 year olds. The ranking are: Belgium, Canada, Denmark, France, Ireland, Japan, Korea, Norway and Spain. For those 55-64 year olds the U.S.A. is ranked #4. See: http://www.oecd.org/document/30/0,33..._1_1_1,00.html

Also read http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/...in838207.shtml for a review.


kc0iv

[ohiomohawk]

If all you are doing is stocking shelves, or running a cash register it isn't a skill.

Nor is holding a steering wheel.

No....You can randomly pick 10 people off the street and ask them to go inside a store and stock some shelves with very little supervision.

You CANNOT randomly pick 10 people off the street and and have them get inside a 80,000lb vehicle and drive 100 miles and switch trailers and return to thier original point.

You are doing a little more than simply holding a steering wheel.

If you have problems stocking shelves you wont kill or injure anybody in the process.

If you have problems driving an 80,000lb vehicle you can kill or injure dozens and dozens of people, therefore SKILL IS REQUIRED.

[Joymax_Trans2]

kc0iv wrote:


If you look at the computer fields you find the major companies are hiring people from other countries because they can't find people here in this country. I just read the other day companies are trying to increase the number of employees they can hire from foreign countries.

There are plenty of qualified people in the US with computer degrees and experience that can fill those jobs. I am one of those people who earned a six figure salary. I'm the wife part of Joymax Transportation. What has happened is US companies needed to cut their cost of doing business and these highly skilled and highly payed US workers were laid off and replaced with low cost overseas workers. I've been working in the computer industry for 30+ years and have been down-sized 3 times. After my last lay off in 2001, I decided to work for myself and have been ever since. I know hundreds of people in the computer industry that have been negatively affected by outsourcing IT jobs overseas. Having trained some of these overseas workers, I can tell you first hand that their skill level is no where near the skill level of the US worker and there is a language barrier problem which has cost US companies a hugh financial burden.

US companies do not want to pay US workers the income that they should pay them. The US cost of living is much higher than the cost of living overseas.

[kc0iv]

kc0iv wrote:


If you look at the computer fields you find the major companies are hiring people from other countries because they can't find people here in this country. I just read the other day companies are trying to increase the number of employees they can hire from foreign countries.

There are plenty of qualified people in the US with computer degrees and experience that can fill those jobs. I am one of those people who earned a six figure salary. I'm the wife part of Joymax Transportation. What has happened is US companies needed to cut their cost of doing business and these highly skilled and highly payed US workers were laid off and replaced with low cost overseas workers. I've been working in the computer industry for 30+ years and have been down-sized 3 times. After my last lay off in 2001, I decided to work for myself and have been ever since. I know hundreds of people in the computer industry that have been negatively affected by outsourcing IT jobs overseas. Having trained some of these overseas workers, I can tell you first hand that their skill level is no where near the skill level of the US worker and there is a language barrier problem which has cost US companies a hugh financial burden.

US companies do not want to pay US workers the income that they should pay them. The US cost of living is much higher than the cost of living overseas.

One of the problems in the electronic fields and has been for years is the employee doesn't continue to increase his/her skills. He/She gets their degree and thinks they are set for life. I know when I started in the electronic field you were good for about 10 years. Today I would say maybe 5 years.

I would disagree with you on skill levels of US vs foreign. The U.S.A. has continued to drop in the quality of the higher education fields as I showed in the articles I posted earlier.

kc0iv

[Joymax_Trans2]

I would disagree with you on skill levels of US vs foreign. The U.S.A. has continued to drop in the quality of the higher education fields as I showed in the articles I posted earlier.

kc0iv

KCOIV,

I am talking about the thousands of qualified highly educated US computer industry workers that have been working in this industry for 20+ years. I don't care what the article reads, I have personally managed a team of overseas India workers whose computer skill levels were not even close to the American computer skill workers that I have worked with. I have many friends in this industry as well and we often discuss this subject matter because we are living and experiencing the real deal. We are being asked to train these overseas workers to do our jobs.

Due to the high outsourcing of computer industry jobs, current college students are no longer considering a career in computer science. Why earn a 4 year degree and pay $30K or more in tuition to graduate and not even be able to find a job in the US. Do you know that I have been approached several times by firms from India to go work in India? My answer was hell no. Now India is having a problem competing for jobs and they are outsoucing to China for cheaper labor.

[kc0iv]

I would disagree with you on skill levels of US vs foreign. The U.S.A. has continued to drop in the quality of the higher education fields as I showed in the articles I posted earlier.

kc0iv

KCOIV,

I am talking about the thousands of qualified highly educated US computer industry workers that have been working in this industry for 20+ years. I don't care what the article reads, I have personally managed a team of overseas India workers whose computer skill levels were not even close to the American computer skill workers that I have worked with. I have many friends in this industry as well and we often discuss this subject matter because we are living and experiencing the real deal. We are being asked to train these overseas workers to do our jobs.

Due to the high outsourcing of computer industry jobs, current college students are no longer considering a career in computer science. Why earn a 4 year degree and pay $30K or more in tuition to graduate and not even be able to find a job in the US. Do you know that I have been approached several times by firms from India to go work in India? My answer was hell no. Now India is having a problem competing for jobs and they are outsoucing to China for cheaper labor.

We can go round and round on this subject.

I also have over 30 years in the electronic industry (with a BS) as field service, design, and programing so I've seem a few things in my life. What I have also seem is many of the industry have not kept up in advances in the industry.

I've also see colleges now require an additional year because incoming students didn't have the required skills to enter into college. Math skills simply are not taught to a level required for most majors.

You will also notice India nor China is ranked above the U.S.A. in higher education.

I'll give you have the last word.

kc0iv

[matcat]

kc0iv wrote:


If you look at the computer fields you find the major companies are hiring people from other countries because they can't find people here in this country. I just read the other day companies are trying to increase the number of employees they can hire from foreign countries.

There are plenty of qualified people in the US with computer degrees and experience that can fill those jobs. I am one of those people who earned a six figure salary. I'm the wife part of Joymax Transportation. What has happened is US companies needed to cut their cost of doing business and these highly skilled and highly payed US workers were laid off and replaced with low cost overseas workers. I've been working in the computer industry for 30+ years and have been down-sized 3 times. After my last lay off in 2001, I decided to work for myself and have been ever since. I know hundreds of people in the computer industry that have been negatively affected by outsourcing IT jobs overseas. Having trained some of these overseas workers, I can tell you first hand that their skill level is no where near the skill level of the US worker and there is a language barrier problem which has cost US companies a hugh financial burden.

US companies do not want to pay US workers the income that they should pay them. The US cost of living is much higher than the cost of living overseas.

I too worked in the computer industry, got laid off to be replaced by another programmer that the company paid to bring over from India, and this was a small company!

[SlacTrac]

Me too and I have a rack full of t-shirts to prove it. Did you guys keep the t-shirts?
and this:
"Now India is having a problem competing for jobs and they are outsoucing to China for cheaper labor."

Its comming back around. We'll be the outsourceees' pretty soon. HaHAaahaha. wont take long at this rate. :wink:

[matcat]

Me too and I have a rack full of t-shirts to prove it. Did you guys keep the t-shirts?
and this:
"Now India is having a problem competing for jobs and they are outsoucing to China for cheaper labor."

Its comming back around. We'll be the outsourceees' pretty soon. HaHAaahaha. wont take long at this rate. :wink:

Nah, other countries have too much hatred for Americans to go bringing us into their country to do their work.

[ohiomohawk]

This is FUNNY




Americans Are Crossing Into Mexico to Look for Better Jobs

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



NOGALES, Mexico — Armed Mexican vigilantes are patrolling the Mexico-Arizona desert border region to prevent crossings from the USA into Mexico by Americans seeking a better life.

Pedro Lopez, head of Mexicanos No Gringos, which has set up surveillance posts along the desert crossing, says, "Americanos try to get into Mexico to take our good jobs, buy cheap tequilla and gas, find putas in Juarez, escape Bush's dictatorship, and they send our pesos back to their poor families in Idaho."

Lopez twirled his mustache. "They never learn our language and eat white bread instead of tortillias!"

Fred Jones, an undocumented resident of Mexico City, who entered the country from the USA in 1989 and picks tomatoes at a local farm said, "My children were born here and are legal Mexican citizens! We reverse ******* are planning to stage huge protest marches throughout Mexican cities to become legal citizens of this great democracy, We work hard and take jobs the Mexicans won't do, like run motels and operate convenience stores."

Art Candell

[Orangetxguy]

I would disagree with you on skill levels of US vs foreign. The U.S.A. has continued to drop in the quality of the higher education fields as I showed in the articles I posted earlier.

kc0iv

KCOIV,

I am talking about the thousands of qualified highly educated US computer industry workers that have been working in this industry for 20+ years. I don't care what the article reads, I have personally managed a team of overseas India workers whose computer skill levels were not even close to the American computer skill workers that I have worked with. I have many friends in this industry as well and we often discuss this subject matter because we are living and experiencing the real deal. We are being asked to train these overseas workers to do our jobs.

Due to the high outsourcing of computer industry jobs, current college students are no longer considering a career in computer science. Why earn a 4 year degree and pay $30K or more in tuition to graduate and not even be able to find a job in the US. Do you know that I have been approached several times by firms from India to go work in India? My answer was hell no. Now India is having a problem competing for jobs and they are outsoucing to China for cheaper labor.

We can go round and round on this subject.

I also have over 30 years in the electronic industry (with a BS) as field service, design, and programing so I've seem a few things in my life. What I have also seem is many of the industry have not kept up in advances in the industry.

I've also see colleges now require an additional year because incoming students didn't have the required skills to enter into college. Math skills simply are not taught to a level required for most majors.

You will also notice India nor China is ranked above the U.S.A. in higher education.

I'll give you have the last word.

kc0iv

Now...last year you said you had over 30 years in the trucking industry...a "retired" driver I believe you said.


So...yer one busy "old" guy huh ???


Joymax is right about the "outsourcing" of "Tech" jobs to India (Microsoft was leader of the pack on that one)...just as Customer Support job's have been outsourced to India. The airlines tried to outsource their reservation offices to India, but found it to hard to replace the system that they already have in place. Signal Offshore Services was successful in bringing 300 "India-n" steel workers to Orange TX last year (under the banner that there were no workers available. And they weren't wrong...nobody was willing to work for Signal, as a welders helper at $9.45 an hour, when they could work someplace else for $19.00 an hour).
To supply those workers with "secure" housing, Signal constructed a barracks system, much like is used on Offshore Platforms. Each "room" has a kitchenette, living room, bathroom and bedroom. Signal also supplies those workers with meals.

I saw a new billboard along I-10 when I headed out this trip....Signal is advertising a starting wage of $20.35 for general laborers. I wonder what they found lacking in their "imports".

[mccfry]

Our media feeds on fear, fear sells it keeps people tuned in.

[kc0iv]

Now...last year you said you had over 30 years in the trucking industry...a "retired" driver I believe you said.


So...yer one busy "old" guy huh ???

Yes I had 30 years in the Electronic Industry (see note below). I also started driving a tractor trainer in 1963. And I've been retired for about 2 1/2 years. All three statements are correct. I don't recall me ever saying I drove for 30 years.

What I did do is started driving when I got out of high school and while driving went to school and got my BS. Then went into the electronic field in field service. After about five years I was hired as a jr. design engineer and advanced to a senior engineer. I worked in electronic field until 1990.

I then went back into trucking and drove OTR until I had a stroke two days after Hurricane Katrina when I was delivering bottle water. At which time I was forced to retire.

So to recap.

1963 - 1967 -- driving & going to school
1967 - 1994 -- working in electronic
1994 - 2005 -- driving OTR
2005 - present -- retired

NOTE: So if you want to be picky I only had 27 years in electronic as a hired employee. Not the 30 I stated. However, I was involved in electronic since 1958 when I got my ham ticket.

I hope that puts your mind at ease.

kc0iv

[Longsnowsm]

kc0iv,

A lot has changed since you were in techland. The outsourcing is real. the demand for H1B's to import what they cannot outsource is real. The demand for tech jobs is shrinking rapidly.

Back to my point. If there are no jobs or the job market is shrinking so that you won't have a job when your done with school it doesn't matter if you have a PHD and are a rocket scientist. No jobs still means your unemployed, underemployed.

I realize what your reading and hearing, but it just doesn't line up with reality. Those are the facts.

I couldn't agree more with Joy and some of the other posters here. Some of us are a little closer to all of this and have recent experience and know what is happening. We see it and/or have/are experiencing it.

The campaign is underway now in trucking to import drivers. Regardless if there is a shortage or not your going to hear that there is one(just like your still hearing about in computers/tech jobs). And when you start to see drivers here losing their jobs or working for 10-15 cpm due to wage pressures from import drivers then maybe it will start ring true what people are trying to say. Maybe then some of the things we are trying to say will ring true.

Longsnowsm

[got mud?]

If all you are doing is stocking shelves, or running a cash register it isn't a skill.

Nor is holding a steering wheel.

No....You can randomly pick 10 people off the street and ask them to go inside a store and stock some shelves with very little supervision.

You CANNOT randomly pick 10 people off the street and and have them get inside a 80,000lb vehicle and drive 100 miles and switch trailers and return to thier original point.

You are doing a little more than simply holding a steering wheel.

If you have problems stocking shelves you wont kill or injure anybody in the process.

If you have problems driving an 80,000lb vehicle you can kill or injure dozens and dozens of people, therefore SKILL IS REQUIRED.

I spent 7 year managing stores and I can tell you as a matter of fact that you just can't pick ten people of the street and have them stock shelves effectively. there is some skill involved and it is very labor intensive and yes if you stock shelves improperly you can injure someone. I have filled out enough accident reports and sat in court enough to attest to that fact.

your comparing apples to oranges.

trucking is not considered a trade. I'm not downplaying the value or the skill involved but anyone with good driving habits and common sense can learn to drive a truck.

[ohiomohawk]

I spent 7 year managing stores and I can tell you as a matter of fact that you just can't pick ten people of the street and have them stock shelves effectively. there is some skill involved and it is very labor intensive and yes if you stock shelves improperly you can injure someone. I have filled out enough accident reports and sat in court enough to attest to that fact.

First, I never considered trucking a trade.

You can't find 10 people off the street and have them stock shelves effectively?

I have worked at Kmart, Wamlmart,Sears, PK Lumber you name it back in the 80's(more than 7 years off and on). It took about 15 minutes for somebody to train me how to stock shelves. In all those days i probably trained 30-40 maybe more on how to place products on a shelf. I do not recall one person having and difficulty learning how to do so. Yes i have seen people fall and injure themselves that happens everywhere, and a few people too short to reach some spots and you have a few faster than others but DAM, SKILL INVOLVED?? I strongly disagree .

I also was a machinist and learned how to machine angles and use trigonomentry to figure unknown angles and read blueprints so I have been on both extremes.

You have unskilled labor, semi-skilled labor, and highly skilled labor.

Trucking would be considered semi-skilled labor. A Tool Maker or Mold Maker is a highly skilled labor. Stocking shelves would be considered unskilled labor.