Pickens Plan - We cannot drill our way out

[Longsnowsm]

I just saw an ad on TV for the pickensplan.org. I watched the video. Boone Pickens is a big oilman, and he is telling us we cannot drill our way out of this energy crisis. He has a plan, and it looks good for a start. It isn't a long term fix and he admits that, but it is a great start. Check it out!

[GMAN]

He has some interesting ideas. I heard another oil executive say that we could drill our way out of this situation in the short term. He asked Boone Pickens to change his statement about drilling. We do need alternative sources to power our vehicles. Prices will drop like a rock when we start drilling and/or come up with alternatives to oil. We are the largest consumers of oil in the world. Take the U.S. out of the mix and prices will tumble.

[Roadhog]

It comes down to supply and demand.
I hope we can expand our drilling, while we further develop alternative resources, including energy conservation programs.
Right now, the solution is bigger than one energy policy, and we have to cut the political crap.

[Longsnowsm]

I just watched the 2 videos on CNBC and Boone said that he was taken out of context on the drilling and Joe pointed out that the left have latched onto that sound bite. He said it is true that we cannot drill out way out as far as the supply and demand, but that we do have to drill everywhere we can and get every resource we have online. Basically the problem is too big... Here are the video links from the interview:

Pt 1:
http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=817210254
Pt 2:
http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=817208663

[GMAN]

I don't think the problem is that complex. It is the implementation that is the real challenge.

[Longsnowsm]

The problem isn't complex, but as they say "the devil is in the details". I am all for breaking this dependence situation. I liked his idea about meeting with both McCain and Obama's teams and talking about the plan and answering questions. He held a couple of townhalls and it was a packed house. Maybe if enough people ask about this plan the candidates will put this on the agenda.

My concern is regarding the natural gas supplies that he is suggesting we use. We still import a chunk of our natural gas, so I don't know just how plentiful these supplies are.

We do know that world oil production has been falling since 2005. So the question isn't if there is a Peak Oil(demand outstripping supply), but what we are going to do about it. So if we don't move with a purpose on this we very well could be in a permanent energy supply problem.

Wind is great, and cheap, but you have to have a way to store the energy and use it when you need it. I know there are companies developing this technology for solar to store the power as heat. One company I am watching the story with is Solar Reserve. They basically store the heat from the solar collectors in a collector that uses some type of salt to hold the heat and then use the heat as needed to run turbines to generate power. Very interesting idea that is being explored right now in AZ and CA if I understand the news correctly. I haven't heard if they are talking about something similar for capturing the power generated by wind.

Longsnowsm

[GMAN]

They think that they have discovered the largest natural gas deposits ever discovered. They are drilling everywhere you look around Ft Worth and further South.

[Roadhog]

Wouldn't you just like to slap the crap out of Politicians, and tell them to shape up, and simply do their job? It's madness.

[Creek Jackson]

Longsnowsm wrote:

"Wind is great, and cheap, but you have to have a way to store the energy and use it when you need it. "

I have often thought that wind energy could be used to pump water to a higher elevation. The energy generated by the wind would then be stored in the water as kinetic energy.

I am sure there must be a hitch in this process somewhere or it would have been utilized by now.

[Longsnowsm]

I have thought the same thing on the water idea. I have seen some YouTube video's with an old Stirling Engine they used to use to pump water into a holding tank for cabins and hotels. The stirling just uses heat to power it. So they used to fire it up first thing in the morning by lighting a fire under it and then just let it run until the fire went out. That would pump enough water to supply the buildings. So imagine using something like a fresnel lens to heat that engine and pump water or run a generator? You can see a fresnel lens used on a small stirling engine also on YouTube. It is almost a no brainer! There are a couple of videos showing the fresnel lens "melting" concrete!

To me it looks like you would just need something to allow the fresnel to move and track the sun to keep the stirling running. The stirling is an old technology. The one video on YouTube shows a Sterling from 1895 that was used to pump water.

Wind to pump water has been done for a long time, and again seems like a no brainer. Not sure why this isn't being discussed. Probably makes too much sense!

Longsnowsm

[Windwalker]

Originally Posted by Creek Jackson

Longsnowsm wrote:

"Wind is great, and cheap, but you have to have a way to store the energy and use it when you need it. "

I have often thought that wind energy could be used to pump water to a higher elevation. The energy generated by the wind would then be stored in the water as kinetic energy.

I am sure there must be a hitch in this process somewhere or it would have been utilized by now.

There is a hitch. You would lose because of the resistance to flowing as well as the power it would take to lift the water, and on the reverse cycle, you would again lose because of the resistance. Or call it "DRAG-COEFFICIENT". The same thing that gives you less mpg at 75 mph then at 65 mph. No, it's not wind resistance, but the water has adhesion to the surface of the plumbing going both ways. This will reduce the efficiency. While I'm sure it would help, you will not get everything back out of it that you put into it.

I'm afraid my vote still goes to HYDROGEN.

[Creek Jackson]

Originally Posted by Windwalker

There is a hitch. You would lose because of the resistance to flowing as well as the power it would take to lift the water, and on the reverse cycle, you would again lose because of the resistance. Or call it "DRAG-COEFFICIENT". The same thing that gives you less mpg at 75 mph then at 65 mph. No, it's not wind resistance, but the water has adhesion to the surface of the plumbing going both ways. This will reduce the efficiency. While I'm sure it would help, you will not get everything back out of it that you put into it.

I'm afraid my vote still goes to HYDROGEN.

I was aware that there would be a loss of energy in the conversion of wind to electricity to kinetic.
I was speaking in terms of the storage potential more than the other principles. :wink:

[Longsnowsm]

Originally Posted by Windwalker

I'm afraid my vote still goes to HYDROGEN.

Until just recently with the big announcement from MIT, hydrogen was too costly to extract and was a net energy loser. But if the big news out of MIT proves to be true they have figured out a way to simulate photosynthesis and separate hydrogen and oxygen from water.

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2008/oxygen-0731.html

The other big stumbling block until now has been the time it will take to get hydrogen to the market. If we were forced to produce hydrogen on large scale using conventional means, transport, and implement it just wouldn't happen in time. The time is shorter than most people think regarding energy and the global energy situation.

This MIT discovery could have us all making hydrogen at home and within 10 years if what MIT says is right. Now we will have to see what the details are regarding the catalyst materials, amount of electricity used, and the volume of hydrogen produced. Right now the details are sparse. And let's see if this story actually develops into something we can actually see and not just something in the lab.

Overall if we have to use conventional means to get hydrogen it is an energy loser, but if this photosynthesis method is real then hydrogen just became front and center on the energy stage. I guess we will see soon enough.

Pickensplan.org is a great start I think, but I would love to see this hydrogen story steal the thunder and the headlines if it is true that hydrogen could end up being practically free and easy to produce. BUT just because we can possibly get the hydrogen for cheap or free doesn't change the fact that we still have to build the fuel cells, storage tanks, and equipment that can use it for our homes, cars, trucks, and in the various ways we use energy today. Most of this stuff doesn't exist in any form yet. This all will take a substantial amount of time.

In the mean time I think we have to rally behind what we have available today. The pickensplan.org plan is doable and in a short period of time if we are serious. If even one of these big projects gets the go ahead and starts to move the innovation and technology will develop to make it work for us.

Longsnowsm

[scania]

Wonder how much stake ol' Pick's got in that operation.

[Longsnowsm]

He talks about it in the CNBC interviews. He is putting his own money in a wind plant in TX right now, and has been involved in natural gas for some time. Some have just said it is about the money for him. He plainly says he is giving his money away so it isn't about the money. I have to wonder if something isn't up with his health the way he is talking.

Longsnowsm

[GMAN]

I don't have a problem with him making money off of his natural gas or windmills. If he invests his own money he deserves to earn a profit. I hope he earns another fortune. At least he is trying to do something productive. That is more than his counterparts are doing.

[Rawlco]

Originally Posted by Longsnowsm

I have thought the same thing on the water idea. I have seen some YouTube video's with an old Stirling Engine they used to use to pump water into a holding tank for cabins and hotels. The stirling just uses heat to power it. So they used to fire it up first thing in the morning by lighting a fire under it and then just let it run until the fire went out. That would pump enough water to supply the buildings. So imagine using something like a fresnel lens to heat that engine and pump water or run a generator? You can see a fresnel lens used on a small stirling engine also on YouTube. It is almost a no brainer! There are a couple of videos showing the fresnel lens "melting" concrete!

To me it looks like you would just need something to allow the fresnel to move and track the sun to keep the stirling running. The stirling is an old technology. The one video on YouTube shows a Sterling from 1895 that was used to pump water.

Wind to pump water has been done for a long time, and again seems like a no brainer. Not sure why this isn't being discussed. Probably makes too much sense!

Longsnowsm

They do that in Israel. The sun heats layered salt water pools. I believe that it is a stirling type engine principle they use to extract the electricity. It would probably work in the Southern US as well. The downside is that you only get power when the sun shines, and most people like to use lights when it is dark.

[Rawlco]

I believe that if you study the Pickens plan that you will find he is not opposed to drilling, but he thinks that drilling alone is not enough, we need wind power too. We need to supplement all the oil and natural gas we can drill for domestically with the alternatives.


BTW if you tell me we can't drill our way out of this problem, I will ask you if we should tax our way out instead?






Yesss! I can still make the longest runon sentence ever.

[Fourcats]

"BTW if you tell me we can't drill our way out of this problem, I will ask you if we should tax our way out instead?"




Good Point!
That will be the solution the "leaders" will come up with...if they ever get back to work.

[GMAN]

It is best that they don't get back to work. When they are out of Washington they can't spend our money or throw more taxes our way!