I talked to a friend of mine at CHR today...

[Justruckin]

He told me rates are up, but not to hold my breath. The coming economy is in a downturn... In other words, capacity, "trucks", are down sharper than freight is up... If you get my drift.

For the uninformed, trucking companies are folding faster then you can whistle Dixie...

For what it is worth...

Hold on to your bippy, because we ain't seen nothing yet.

On Edit: Freight is projected to shrink as demand is down for all goods. We have seen a quick uptick, but it will be very short lived.

[rank]

Last week my phone rang off the hook and I had to turn down a load (end of the month). I could pretty much name my price. This week it's dead as a door nail again.

[GMAN]

I received several good offers this week. Rates seem to be up for the last few days. It may also have something to do with where I am sitting.

[heavyhaulerss]

last week. did 8 loads in 4 days. this week will not even do 1/2 of that. I will be lucky to make 40 % of what I did last week. 1 week o.k. next week nothing. back & forth for me. unless I go where I don't want to go.

[GMAN]

That seems to be the way things are with quite a few people with whom I talk. There is one broker that nearly always has good paying freight. Much of this year their business has been up and down. They may do very well this week and nothing next. It is a very strange market.

[BigDiesel]

He told me rates are up, but not to hold my breath. The coming economy is in a downturn... In other words, capacity, "trucks", are down sharper than freight is up... If you get my drift.

For the uninformed, trucking companies are folding faster then you can whistle Dixie...

For what it is worth...

Hold on to your bippy, because we ain't seen nothing yet.

On Edit: Freight is projected to shrink as demand is down for all goods. We have seen a quick uptick, but it will be very short lived.

Cheap and Heavy is the last place I would pay any attention to, regarding the economic outlook... Or the self-annoited oracle of trucking.....

[LOAD IT]

Do the words "friend" and "CHR" even belong in the same sentence?

[Orangetxguy]

He told me rates are up, but not to hold my breath. The coming economy is in a downturn... In other words, capacity, "trucks", are down sharper than freight is up... If you get my drift.

For the uninformed, trucking companies are folding faster then you can whistle Dixie...

For what it is worth...

Hold on to your bippy, because we ain't seen nothing yet.

On Edit: Freight is projected to shrink as demand is down for all goods. We have seen a quick uptick, but it will be very short lived.


CHR must have freaked if they had to raise their rates from 73 cents per mile to 74 cents per mile!

[Heavy Duty]

"C.H. Robinson 3Q Profit Up 2% On Higher Margins As Rev Falls "

"Improved margins have helped C.H. Robinson offset falling revenue over the past few quarters, helped by its ability to buy cheap transport capacity on spot markets and reselling it at higher contract rates. But concerns have risen as the eventual economic recovery could allow truckers and other transport providers greater pricing power. "

What that means is that by taking more off the top they can still make money off cheap rates.

The article C.H. Robinson 3Q Profit Up 2% On Higher Margins As Rev Falls - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20091020-715242.html)

Also, Sitton out of Joplin is shutting down .

[b00m]

You are right heavyduty,

They sure know to make their money,even in a downturn while squezzing the poor trucker.Last year they made a profit in q3 while the trucking industry was decimated. I absolutely refuse their loads unless I have no choice,even drive empty miles,position myself in a better area for freight.

This week it seemed that van rates went up. A friend did really good,who pulled reefer before. Reefer rates for produce are still in the low side. Other reefer rates seem a little better. Right now was able to pull a $2 mile load up here in the midwest. Something that I haven't seeen in a long time.

[RostyC]

You are right heavyduty,

They sure know to make their money,even in a downturn while squezzing the poor trucker.Last year they made a profit in q3 while the trucking industry was decimated. I absolutely refuse their loads unless I have no choice,even drive empty miles,position myself in a better area for freight.

This week it seemed that van rates went up. A friend did really good,who pulled reefer before. Reefer rates for produce are still in the low side. Other reefer rates seem a little better. Right now was able to pull a $2 mile load up here in the midwest. Something that I haven't seeen in a long time.

I thought you were pulling containers, must be mistaken. Are you running off the boards?

[GMAN]

It is easy to make a profit when you have virtually no overhead as compared to owners of trucks. All a broker needs is a computer, fax and telephone. He can buy everything he needs to go into business for less than $1,000. That won't even be enough for a down payment on a truck. Many owners have been scrambling for freight and will haul anything that they can put on the truck no matter what the rate.

[chris1]

It is easy to make a profit when you have virtually no overhead as compared to owners of trucks. All a broker needs is a computer, fax and telephone. He can buy everything he needs to go into business for less than $1,000. That won't even be enough for a down payment on a truck. Many owners have been scrambling for freight and will haul anything that they can put on the truck no matter what the rate.

You forgot about contingent cargo,general liability,up-front money for the carrier,quick pay long before you are paid,getting the customers,claims that the carrier can't pay and much more.
Oh i forgot that as soon as you have the authority customers beat down your doors. If it is so easy to get customer's why do you use brokers?

[GMAN]

You forgot about contingent cargo,general liability,up-front money for the carrier,quick pay long before you are paid,getting the customers,claims that the carrier can't pay and much more.
Oh i forgot that as soon as you have the authority customers beat down your doors. If it is so easy to get customer's why do you use brokers?


The broker can factor his paper just as the carrier can, and many do. The contingent cargo and other insurance the broker may carrier is still no where near the cost of what the truck has to pay. Many brokers use factors to pay for their "quick pay" programs. There are costs associated with any business. The carrier must pay for cargo, liability, fuel, breakdowns, drivers, etc., etc., It is difficult to feel sorry for brokers knowing what some of them are taking off the top. What the broker pays in operating costs is a fraction of what a carrier must pay to stay in business. And when a driver leaves your truck half way across the country the carrier must pay someone to go get it. Brokers have minimal expense and operate with higher profit margins than most carriers. I spoke with one carrier the other day who spends $1,000 per month in insurance. That isn't including equipment payments of over $3,000 per month. I never said that it was easy getting customers. It is complicated by brokers and third party logistics companies who are beating down prices. If it were only carriers whom we were competing prices would likely be higher than when brokers are involved. After all, they make their percentage no matter what the load moves for. A broker can make money when a load moves for $0.50/mile. Any carrier who would haul for that rate is losing money.

[chris1]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume you have the only tools needed(phone,fax and computer) to get customers the same as a broker. If so why do you continue to use brokers? You just make a phone call and you have a new customer.
A broker factoring is just as ignorant as a carrier that factors. Borrow the same money over and over again.
Even if the broker factors they have to come up with the operating money for the carriers before they factor the load. Hard to factor a load that hasn't delivered yet.
I guess every other business is far easier than owning a truck.

[GMAN]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume you have the only tools needed(phone,fax and computer) to get customers the same as a broker. If so why do you continue to use brokers? You just make a phone call and you have a new customer.
A broker factoring is just as ignorant as a carrier that factors. Borrow the same money over and over again.
Even if the broker factors they have to come up with the operating money for the carriers before they factor the load. Hard to factor a load that hasn't delivered yet.
I guess every other business is far easier than owning a truck.s.


I don't have a problem using brokers. As long as I get the rate that I want I don't really care who pays me. There are pros and cons to both. I never said that I only use brokers. It does take time to get most direct shippers. It is difficult for anyone who drives their own truck to get out and knock on doors with direct shippers. Most carriers use brokers. Some of the largest carriers in this country use brokers for at least some of their freight. I don't know of anyone who only uses their own direct shippers. It isn't necessarily difficult to get your own shippers, but does take time. You may make dozens of calls before you find a good shipper. And if you think that all brokers finance their own paper you need to check around. CH Robinson uses US Bank. This is one of the largest factoring banks in the nation. It is also the same bank used by the U.S. government. There is nothing wrong with factoring your paper. Some of the largest corporations in the world use factors. It is a good way to finance your business without debt. As long as you are making money it really doesn't make any difference whether you finance your own paper or not, although it is more profitable if you can handle your own receivables. On the other hand, you can grow your business much easier when you factor unless you have a boat load of money starting out. And for the record, I don't necessarily think that trucking is the most difficult business, but it is one of the most challenging. It is very capital intensive and has low profit margins. Many people get into business thinking that they are going to make a killing. Often times they under estimate the costs and over estimate their profits. I understand that there are drawbacks and challenges to brokering. Trucks disappear after taking a load or simply don't show up. I am not anti broker. I think that brokers can serve a useful purpose in this business. Brokers can be helpful for those who don't have the inclination or desire to get out and knock on doors. But most of the liability falls on the shoulders of the carrier.

[chris1]

Pretty big difference in cost between factoring and LOC on receivables. Maybe you should not use the generic term factoring when it doesn't apply to what you're talking about.

As long as you get the rate you want why do you concern yourself with someone else's operating cost? Why complain about it?

As you said it takes many calls to get a customer,is there no cost involved in that? Maybe you should hire someone to do that for you. You expect to be paid for your work the same as anyone else.

[Kranky]

Many owners have been scrambling for freight and will haul anything that they can put on the truck no matter what the rate.

So why would anyone expect rates to go up when the loads are being moved "no matter what the rate"?

:confused::smokin:

[GMAN]

Pretty big difference in cost between factoring and LOC on receivables. Maybe you should not use the generic term factoring when it doesn't apply to what you're talking about.

As long as you get the rate you want why do you concern yourself with someone else's operating cost? Why complain about it?

As you said it takes many calls to get a customer,is there no cost involved in that? Maybe you should hire someone to do that for you. You expect to be paid for your work the same as anyone else.



For the most part I don't worry about what someone else makes. You either make sales calls yourself, hire a salesman or use a broker. There is a cost involved in making sales costs. It is often more a cost of labor rather than out of pocket expenses. The real costs to the broker is minimal compared to the owner of a truck. The owner of the truck can spend thousands of dollars before he makes a nickel. As I believe that I stated earlier, I don't have a problem using brokers as long as I can get my price for the freight I haul. There are those who think that a broker should not make any money. I think it would be good if brokers operated like realtors with a fixed percentage for the entire industry. If nothing else, it would take some of the fire out of the detractors of brokers.

[GMAN]

So why would anyone expect rates to go up when the loads are being moved "no matter what the rate"?

:confused::smokin:


There will always be those who place a low value on their services.

[chris1]

It is often more a cost of labor rather than out of pocket expenses. The real costs to the broker is minimal compared to the owner of a truck. The owner of the truck can spend thousands of dollars before he makes a nickel.

Labor has no cost? With that reasoning your "labor" for driving also has no cost. I'm sure you expect to be compensated for that the same as any salesperson would.

I also have trucks so i am fully aware of the costs. A new customer can run 1.3-1.5 ratio in the first 60 days. That is a far higher cost than a truck.

[Kranky]

There will always be those who place a low value on their services.

Sounds like that "performance based pay" thing you've been espousing may not be working too well for some.

Evidently the "performance" is there, but their pay is not commensurate with it.

.

[chris1]

Isn't it time for you to go to work? Maybe it will snow and you'll be busy for awhile.

[allan5oh]

chris I think he was talking about his own labor, there are no true "out of pocket" expenses for his own labor.

[chris1]

chris I think he was talking about his own labor, there are no true "out of pocket" expenses for his own labor.

I understand the theory but cash or not if you "donate" your time and don't "pay" yourself for it you're only fooling yourself.

I know some O/O's that "donate" 2-3 days a week waiting for that good load of a few hundred dollars more. If you would not accept it working for someone else why you not want it from yourself?

Time is finite,you can't get it back. Your time spent on something should be compensated(or at least allowed for) in your final pricing. What i was referring to was if you spend say 20 hours to get a customer and only to make a minimum amount your time spent was for nothing.

[Les2]

I understand the theory but cash or not if you "donate" your time and don't "pay" yourself for it you're only fooling yourself.

I know some O/O's that "donate" 2-3 days a week waiting for that good load of a few hundred dollars more. If you would not accept it working for someone else why you not want it from yourself?

Time is finite,you can't get it back. Your time spent on something should be compensated(or at least allowed for) in your final pricing. What i was referring to was if you spend say 20 hours to get a customer and only to make a minimum amount your time spent was for nothing.

Please tell me your not one of those guys who believes... A load on my trailer and wheels turning I'm making money, regardless of what it pays as long as you don't have to lay over types?

[dobry4u]

chris I think he was talking about his own labor, there are no true "out of pocket" expenses for his own labor.

Your own labor does not effect your cash flow, but looking at it realistically you have to give it value and determine if doing what you do is really worth your time. Everything has a trade off, so accounting for your time and putting it into perspective helps you to realize where you stand.

[Kranky]

Isn't it time for you to go to work? Maybe it will snow and you'll be busy for awhile.

Just got home again & saw this.

I'm always busy, it's just a matter of what I'm busy with.

As for the snow, I think you're well aware it's been too warm for that in our neighborhood lately.;):lol:

Most of our equipment is ready for it now though.

.

[chris1]

Please tell me your not one of those guys who believes... A load on my trailer and wheels turning I'm making money, regardless of what it pays as long as you don't have to lay over types?

No i don't believe that. But if your costs,including your labor exceed the additional moneys gained by waiting you didn't accomplish anything but a loss.

[chris1]

Your own labor does not effect your cash flow, but looking at it realistically you have to give it value and determine if doing what you do is really worth your time. Everything has a trade off, so accounting for your time and putting it into perspective helps you to realize where you stand.

It's far easier to understand the monetary value of time when you have employee's. Unless you're the type that doesn't pay for sitting waiting for that good load. I'm sure that these type's would scream if they worked for someone else and were told to sit a few days for nothing.

[chris1]

Just got home again & saw this.

I'm always busy, it's just a matter of what I'm busy with.

As for the snow, I think you're well aware it's been too warm for that in our neighborhood lately.;):lol:

Most of our equipment is ready for it now though.

.

I'm betting on global warming.

[GMAN]

Labor has no cost? With that reasoning your "labor" for driving also has no cost. I'm sure you expect to be compensated for that the same as any salesperson would.

I also have trucks so i am fully aware of the costs. A new customer can run 1.3-1.5 ratio in the first 60 days. That is a far higher cost than a truck.


I never stated that labor has no costs. If you are compensated by performance then there is no out of pocket labor costs until something is sold. In other words, you have no actual out of pocket expenses until you pay your salesman. If you are the salesman then you only receive compensation when you sell a load of freight.

[Kranky]

I never stated that labor has no costs. If you are compensated by performance then there is no out of pocket labor costs until something is sold. In other words, you have no actual out of pocket expenses until you pay your salesman. If you are the salesman then you only receive compensation when you sell a load of freight.

Most "salesmen" receive a base salary for compensation in addition to the commission they receive for each sale they make, unlike some OTR drivers who receive nothing for sitting waiting.

The driver is "on the job", responsible for company equipment, not at liberty to do as he or she wishes, yet receives no compensation for that time.

.

[chris1]

The driver is "on the job", responsible for company equipment, not at liberty to do as he or she wishes, yet receives no compensation for that time.

.

That is how some convince themselves that they are making a profit. They only cost their time when they are loaded. If they sit 3-4 days,no performance so no cost.

[GMAN]

Most "salesmen" receive a base salary for compensation in addition to the commission they receive for each sale they make, unlike some OTR drivers who receive nothing for sitting waiting.

The driver is "on the job", responsible for company equipment, not at liberty to do as he or she wishes, yet receives no compensation for that time.

.


Most of the higher paying sales positions are commission only. Some offer a draw against their commission. The draw is usually paid weekly and charged against the commissions on sales at the end of the month. If a draw is given is is typically around $250/week.

[chris1]

Most of the higher paying sales positions are commission only. Some offer a draw against their commission. The draw is usually paid weekly and charged against the commissions on sales at the end of the month. If a draw is given is is typically around $250/week.

250.00 week draw is on pretty low end sales positions. We gave car salespeople that much of a draw in the 80's. Most straight commission sales are captive accounts.(or true independent sales)

[GMAN]

The idea of a draw is not to be enough to earn a living but to help the salesman get along until his commissions begin to come in. Some people have the mistaken believe that a draw is a salary. It isn't. It is only used to bridge the gap between starting a new position and getting your commissions coming in. There are some who continue giving a draw no matter how long the salesman is with the company. Car sales, media and advertising sales are a few who regularly pay a weekly draw against commission. There are other types of sales jobs where a based salary is paid and a smaller commission or bonus is paid on sales. This is the way pharmaceutical sales used to be set up. I am not sure if that is still the case or not. I think more sales positions have moved toward commission only or a draw against commission in recent years.

[GMAN]

Most "salesmen" receive a base salary for compensation in addition to the commission they receive for each sale they make, unlike some OTR drivers who receive nothing for sitting waiting.

The driver is "on the job", responsible for company equipment, not at liberty to do as he or she wishes, yet receives no compensation for that time.

.


A driver who works by the mile is paid on performance for the miles he drives. He isn't nor should he be paid extra for being responsible for his equipment. It is part of his job. There is no one else who should or could be responsible for his equipment. His equipment makes it possible for him to earn a living. If he fails to take care of his equipment then he is out of a job. I suppose that I am a bit out of the loop with the way some people think these days. So many people don't want to take responsibility for themselves or their assigned equipment. When I was growing up and in my early days of adulthood most people accepted responsibility for themselves and their families. We didn't mind being responsible for our equipment. It never occured to us that we should be paid extra for that. We considered it part of the job. Perhaps that is why so many carriers opt for these fleece purchase programs, to make drivers more responsible for their equipment.

[chris1]

I employ both captive and independent salespeople in this and other businesses. Have for many years. Don't know where you get your information from but it certainly is not the typical structure of pay.

[chris1]

A driver who works by the mile is paid on performance for the miles he drives. He isn't nor should he be paid extra for being responsible for his equipment. It is part of his job. There is no one else who should or could be responsible for his equipment. His equipment makes it possible for him to earn a living. If he fails to take care of his equipment then he is out of a job.

I see nothing wrong with that. Remember though that when we the"carrier"can't provide the ability(loads) and require the driver to wait for us he needs to be compensated for that.

[Bigmon]

That is how some convince themselves that they are making a profit. They only cost their time when they are loaded. If they sit 3-4 days,no performance so no cost.


There are many jobs like this. I have a friend that has a MBA and was a banker for Bank of NY. Her area was the Pacific North West. If she got stuck in Boise because of weather for a few days she didn't get extra layover pay. All she got was per diem for food and shelter. Many times she'd miss weekend events because of this.

Another friend of mine is a Analyst for Raytheon. Same thing expect he gets stuck in Greenville, TX for days at a time.

[GMAN]

I employ both captive and independent salespeople in this and other businesses. Have for many years. Don't know where you get your information from but it certainly is not the typical structure of pay.



Unless things have changed considerable in recent years that is the way many are compensated. I receive things in my email about sales positions every now and then. Most of them seem to pay based upon straight commission or draw against commission. Most are with major corporations. At one time I had 91 salesmen working for me. Most of them earned a pretty decent living working on commission. If they were not making money then they were not working. They could start earning money from the first day. There are some companies where a salesman may be paid a salary due to the length of time that it takes to close a sale. For instance, a heavy equipment salesman may be paid a base salary due to the length of time it takes to close a sale. He may be paid an additional commission or bonus with each sale or on his sales for the year providing he exceeded his quota. I believe IBM used to pay their main frame salesmen a base salary due to the length of time it would take to close a sale. As far as the $250/week draw is concerned, that was as an example. I considered going to work for a major stock brokerage firm at one time. They paid sales people a draw for a certain period of time and then you were paid straight commission thereafter. That has been some time ago, but as far as I know that is still the way those people are compensated.