Could this be why some succeed in trucking?

[LOAD IT]

What smart truckers tell us about the road to success
By Tim Harford

Published: May 2 2009 01:19 | Last updated: May 2 2009 01:19

Aldo Rustichini is a genial Italian economist with a head of hair that seems to have been modelled on Albert Einstein’s. A professor at Cambridge and the University of Minnesota, he quickly transformed my interview with him into a full-blown undergraduate-style tutorial, occasionally asking me questions to check my understanding. Yet this likeable economist has been carrying out work with potentially explosive implications – including the possibility that economic success is genetically transmitted.

Rustichini’s latest research – with Stephen Burks, Jeffrey Carpenter and Lorenz Goette – studies the behaviour of about 1,000 trainee truck drivers in the US. The researchers gave the truckers IQ tests and asked them to participate in a number of small experiments.

In one experiment, the truckers were asked to choose between gambles and certain payoffs. In another, the choice was between a sum of money now and more money later. A more complex experiment required the truckers to play an anonymous “trust” game. The first player was given $5 and offered the choice of sending it to the second player; the second player had his own $5 and was asked how much he would send to the first player were he to receive $5 from him, and how much if he didn’t. The researchers promised to double the money sent in either direction – meaning that if the players managed to co-operate then each could get $10.

An intriguing pattern emerged. The truckers who scored highest on the IQ test were also more patient and more willing to take calculated risks, rejecting unfair gambles and accepting favourable ones. Their choices revealed a more consistent attitude to risk and a more consistent level of patience, too.

The high-IQ truckers were also better at predicting what other players would do in the trust game, and secured more money overall. When they played second, they were more discriminating, rewarding co-operation and punishing those who would not trust them.

High IQ goes hand in hand with patience, calculated risk-taking and interpersonal judgment, it seems – and this is true after statistically adjusting for age and race.

Nor is any of this limited to the laboratory. Many trainee truckers drop out before completing their first year of work, even though this means they must repay the trucking company their training costs, which run into thousands of dollars. This indicates a lack of patience, an inability to appreciate how much money is at stake or a serious miscalculation in the initial plan to be a truck driver. Whatever the reason, dropping out is correlated with Rustichini’s experimental tests of low IQ, impatience and bad judgment of risk or of other people.

Rustichini puts this in a far more striking way: that the ingredients for prospering in a capitalist society all seem to be present together, or absent together. This is not entirely surprising but neither is it obvious. And therein lies the dangerous hypothesis: if all these attributes go hand in hand, it is much more plausible to suggest that economic success is passed on from generation to generation.

“Such a process could be cultural, genetic or both,” comment the researchers in a footnote, “but the genetic version is the most controversial.” Quite so. But even the cultural transmission of economic success is a provocative notion, and a painful one to most economists, who are predisposed to hope that good policies alone may promote economic growth.

Rustichini is not perturbed. For all his amiability, he is quite content to contemplate unwelcome possibilities.

[RostyC]

This indicates a lack of patience, an inability to appreciate how much money is at stake or a serious miscalculation in the initial plan to be a truck driver. Whatever the reason, dropping out is correlated with Rustichini’s experimental tests of low IQ, impatience and bad judgment of risk or of other people.


Actually, I'd say they are the smart ones. I would also say it's a good indicator of how screwed up, or flawed maybe is a better word, the industry is as a whole. Money doesn't equal happiness so I wouldn't care either (and didn't back in 1993) if I just spent thousands on school, when you realize what you're going to be treated like by these big carriers, it ain't worth it.

Unfortunately, that's the way it's set up. You almost have to go with a large carrier to enter the industry. So, usually, (not all the time) it's the people with no other (perceived) alternatives that stick with it, mostly due to lack of self motivation to better themselves and unfortunately those people are lot of what you see running around out here.

I hope I didn't take this thread off topic, but the paragraph I quoted above just struck a cord I guess.

[Musicman]

Actually, I'd say they are the smart ones. I would also say it's a good indicator of how screwed up, or flawed maybe is a better word, the industry is as a whole. Money doesn't equal happiness so I wouldn't care either (and didn't back in 1993) if I just spent thousands on school, when you realize what you're going to be treated like by these big carriers, it ain't worth it.

Unfortunately, that's the way it's set up. You almost have to go with a large carrier to enter the industry. So, usually, (not all the time) it's the people with no other (perceived) alternatives that stick with it, mostly due to lack of self motivation to better themselves and unfortunately those people are lot of what you see running around out here.

I hope I didn't take this thread off topic, but the paragraph I quoted above just struck a cord I guess.

You’re assertion that the trucking industry is unique in the way trainees are treated falls completely flat for those of us who have had a variety of jobs in the past. There are many, many industries (and not just blue collar, I assure you) where entrant level workers aren’t treated much better than slaves. There are a variety of reasons for this, but it must work, since the U.S. military employs similar tactics, even in the military academies. I don’t remember being treated much like a human being in Basic Training or Airborne School.

Large companies in our industry will always treat trainees poorly and underpay them because not only do they cost the company a ton of money through increased insurance premiums and accident claims, they also are literally a dime a dozen. Have you ever seen the Star Trek episode “The Trouble With Tribbles”? Trainees aren’t as cute as Tribbles, but they are just as plentiful and many will never become competent drivers and should have never obtained a CDL in the first place.

The biggest problem is with unscrupulous CDL schools that mislead prospects about what this industry is like and what they can expect for the first few years as new drivers. People come from all backgrounds to join this industry because they are sold on “The Freedom of the Road” and told what glorious piles of cash they are guaranteed to make as long as they get their license. They only find out after blowing $5k or more on CDL school that this career comes with plenty of BS and that as a company driver, there is little freedom on the road.

[Jumbo]

Along with the schools companies also add to the problem by taking these students with their newly gotten licenses and telling them "our company will pay you this amount and get you home this often, please sign on with us". Then they leave them out on the road for extended periods of time or sitting around with no freight. If you dont have freight dont hire drivers. Or flat out lying to them about how much freedom and money they will have if they just sign on the dotted line of this lease purchase. I understand that people need to do their research because it is ultimately their decision to work somewhere but how about recruiters start telling the truth.

[RostyC]

You’re assertion that the trucking industry is unique in the way trainees are treated falls completely flat for those of us who have had a variety of jobs in the past.

I didn't say it was unique, we're talking about trucking, not other industries. I agree with you that every industry has it's own problems with new comers. I have worked in other professions as well.

Maybe it's me, but I never let anyone treat me with disrespect or try to screw me, no matter the circumstances, no matter the industry.

[GMAN]

What smart truckers tell us about the road to success
By Tim Harford

Published: May 2 2009 01:19 | Last updated: May 2 2009 01:19

Aldo Rustichini is a genial Italian economist with a head of hair that seems to have been modelled on Albert Einstein’s. A professor at Cambridge and the University of Minnesota, he quickly transformed my interview with him into a full-blown undergraduate-style tutorial, occasionally asking me questions to check my understanding. Yet this likeable economist has been carrying out work with potentially explosive implications – including the possibility that economic success is genetically transmitted.

Rustichini’s latest research – with Stephen Burks, Jeffrey Carpenter and Lorenz Goette – studies the behaviour of about 1,000 trainee truck drivers in the US. The researchers gave the truckers IQ tests and asked them to participate in a number of small experiments.

In one experiment, the truckers were asked to choose between gambles and certain payoffs. In another, the choice was between a sum of money now and more money later. A more complex experiment required the truckers to play an anonymous “trust” game. The first player was given $5 and offered the choice of sending it to the second player; the second player had his own $5 and was asked how much he would send to the first player were he to receive $5 from him, and how much if he didn’t. The researchers promised to double the money sent in either direction – meaning that if the players managed to co-operate then each could get $10.

An intriguing pattern emerged. The truckers who scored highest on the IQ test were also more patient and more willing to take calculated risks, rejecting unfair gambles and accepting favourable ones. Their choices revealed a more consistent attitude to risk and a more consistent level of patience, too.

The high-IQ truckers were also better at predicting what other players would do in the trust game, and secured more money overall. When they played second, they were more discriminating, rewarding co-operation and punishing those who would not trust them.

High IQ goes hand in hand with patience, calculated risk-taking and interpersonal judgment, it seems – and this is true after statistically adjusting for age and race.

Nor is any of this limited to the laboratory. Many trainee truckers drop out before completing their first year of work, even though this means they must repay the trucking company their training costs, which run into thousands of dollars. This indicates a lack of patience, an inability to appreciate how much money is at stake or a serious miscalculation in the initial plan to be a truck driver. Whatever the reason, dropping out is correlated with Rustichini’s experimental tests of low IQ, impatience and bad judgment of risk or of other people.

Rustichini puts this in a far more striking way: that the ingredients for prospering in a capitalist society all seem to be present together, or absent together. This is not entirely surprising but neither is it obvious. And therein lies the dangerous hypothesis: if all these attributes go hand in hand, it is much more plausible to suggest that economic success is passed on from generation to generation.

“Such a process could be cultural, genetic or both,” comment the researchers in a footnote, “but the genetic version is the most controversial.” Quite so. But even the cultural transmission of economic success is a provocative notion, and a painful one to most economists, who are predisposed to hope that good policies alone may promote economic growth.

Rustichini is not perturbed. For all his amiability, he is quite content to contemplate unwelcome possibilities.


Although I don't necessarily think that intelligence is a factor in success neither do I think the unintelligent are guaranteed to fail. I have known many well educated failures, if you consider their earnings history. On the other hand, those with a higher level of education do tend to have a higher earnings history than those who do not. I think intelligence can be a factor in success. One reason is that those with higher intelligence tend to work through problems and challenges rather than giving up. The lesser intelligent are more likely to throw up their hands at the first snag and not move on or give up.

I think perseverance has as much or more to do with success than any other single factor. Those who succeed simply don't give up until they obtain their goal. That is true whether the individual is a trucker or executive at a multinational corporation. I would also not necessarily equate intelligence with education. I think that you are born with intelligence. It is what you do with it that is important. An education will open possibilities and opportunities, but will not make you more intelligent. A good education will only show that you have the ability to learn.

I have known some very successful truckers. One who comes to mind only had an 8th grade education. That doesn't mean that this guy wasn't intelligent, just uneducated. He made a lot of money in this industry. I think the only thing he ever did was drive a truck.

I believe another factor in success in business is being single minded. You have a goal or purpose and you work toward that goal until you achieve your objective. You only fail with you give up. Business is full of obstacles. You learn by failing. When something fails then you change tactics. You still have the same goal, but may take a detour to achieve it. You have not failed, but the idea or concept may have failed. As long as you don't give up on your goal then you have not failed.

I am also not convinced that success is genetic. I think that success can be learned. There have been some who have come out of extreme poverty to achieve a high level of success. Sometimes it is only one individual in a family who goes on to achieve success. It can be the entire family. Parents can instill success or at least a desire for success and achievement in their children. That isn't genetic but environment.

There have also been children of highly successful people who have failed at everything that they have attempted. If it were DNA then they should be as successful or more so than their parents. Some do go on to achieve, but it has nothing to do with genetics. A lack of nurturing from the parents may be more a factor in their lack of achievement than DNA.

[LightsChromeHorsepower]

Read "Fooled By Randomness" by Nassim Nicholas Taleb. He has also written another excellent book; "The Black Swan"

I am convinced that a significant portion of success or failure in whatever portion of ones life is quite random. I also suspect that success does breed success in that catching one good break or making one smart/lucky choice can sometimes seemingly position one for another. I also think it works the same way in the other direction, which is why some people never seem to get a break or make any progress in life, no matter how hard they work.

I would like to know more about this study. The thought that there may be a genetically imprinted component intrigues me. I wonder if it could also possibly be some sort of learned behavior, either of which might help explain why one branch of my family seems to be able to fall in pig crop and come out smelling like bacon while my branch always seems to struggle, just missing out on the great chances.

[allan5oh]

What matters most is how they apply that intelligence. I know some people that might be considered having less then average intelligence, yet commit themselves to learning certain aspects of the industry. It may take them longer to learn, but learn they will.

In our capitalist society, anyone can succeed. I do not think there is randomness of it at all. At the end of last year my contract was canceled. I went to another company that I wanted to work for. I wasn't taking no for an answer. The result? Highest pay job I've ever had, with the most chances of advancement.

[LightsChromeHorsepower]

What matters most is how they apply that intelligence. I know some people that might be considered having less then average intelligence, yet commit themselves to learning certain aspects of the industry. It may take them longer to learn, but learn they will.

In our capitalist society, anyone can succeed. I do not think there is randomness of it at all. At the end of last year my contract was canceled. I went to another company that I wanted to work for. I wasn't taking no for an answer. The result? Highest pay job I've ever had, with the most chances of advancement.

I think you should read the book before you comment on it.

[tracer]

...I believe another factor in success in business is being single minded. You have a goal or purpose and you work toward that goal until you achieve your objective. You only fail with you give up. Business is full of obstacles. You learn by failing. When something fails then you change tactics. You still have the same goal, but may take a detour to achieve it. You have not failed, but the idea or concept may have failed. As long as you don't give up on your goal then you have not failed....

I"d add that goals must be specific and WRITTEN. There's a great book by Brian Tracy on the topic and he also recommends to have one major goal at all times - something that's really important to you at the moment. He calls it "Most Definite Purpose". I have a file on the desktop of my laptop called "GOALS" and I constantly update it depending on what I shoot for. Right now for example it says:

"2009 MAJOR DEFINITE PURPOSE
switch to the flatbed division with my own stepdeck trailer"

Tracy's book helped me buy the truck, believe it or now. I was procrastinating in Spring 2007 and when I read his book I did all the exercises that were supposed to pinpoint what you really want from life, and it worked! I bought the truck in April 2007 and became an owner-operator.

Here's a link to the book page on amazon Amazon.com: Goals!: How to Get Everything You Want-Faster Than You Ever Thought Possible (9781576752357): Brian Tracy: Books (http://www.amazon.com/Goals-Everything-Want-Faster-Thought-Possible/dp/1576752356)

[GMAN]

Read "Fooled By Randomness" by Nassim Nicholas Taleb. He has also written another excellent book; "The Black Swan"

I am convinced that a significant portion of success or failure in whatever portion of ones life is quite random. I also suspect that success does breed success in that catching one good break or making one smart/lucky choice can sometimes seemingly position one for another. I also think it works the same way in the other direction, which is why some people never seem to get a break or make any progress in life, no matter how hard they work.

I would like to know more about this study. The thought that there may be a genetically imprinted component intrigues me. I wonder if it could also possibly be some sort of learned behavior, either of which might help explain why one branch of my family seems to be able to fall in pig crop and come out smelling like bacon while my branch always seems to struggle, just missing out on the great chances.


I don't believe that success or failure is random. If that were the case then it would not make any difference what we do. Based upon random selection we are either successful or failures. I am familiar with this concept. It isn't new. The problem with the theory is that it is unproven. If you look at those who have achieved a high level of success in any field there are common threads, but randomness isn't one of them. There are some people who seem determined to fail. It is their actions or how they handle obstacles that determine whether they are successful or fail.

There are some proven paths to success. Just take this industry. One way to help insure your success is to save your money until you can pay cash or at least have a good down payment with a cash reserve. They get a job, take notes and learn. That will not insure your success but it will go a long way toward being successful. On the other side are those who want the illusion of being an owner operator, so they become involved a lease purchase with a carrier. They have little or no experience, credit or money. Those who seem to be successful owner operators put their desires aside to achieve their goal. They will start with a truck they can afford rather than one that they want. They look at this as a business first. Those who succeed keep costs down. Those who fail start with a truck they cannot afford, buy all the toys they cannot afford and are surprised when they lose everything.

This is true in any industry, not just trucking. There are some who have made it on a shoe string. Those are few and far between. Success comes from planning and following your plan. They learn from their failures. Those who fail and continue to fail don't bother to plan and operate by the seat of their pants. They are surprised when success eludes them.

Success or failure are neither random. It comes from planning and hard work or lack thereof. Those who fail do not learn from previous failures. Nor do they learn from mistakes. They continue making the same mistakes over and over again expecting a different outcome. Nearly every previous owner operator who has worked for me knew more than I did about running a trucking company, yet they are out of business and are likely still struggling. They blame me or anyone or anything for their failures but themselves and their actions. I have managed to stay in business for many decades. It hasn't always been easy. There have been many challenges along the way. Surviving in this environment has been one of the most challenging. What is the difference? Whatever the reason it isn't random.

[LightsChromeHorsepower]

I don't believe that success or failure is random. If that were the case then it would not make any difference what we do. Based upon random selection we are either successful or failures. I am familiar with this concept. It isn't new. The problem with the theory is that it is unproven. If you look at those who have achieved a high level of success in any field there are common threads, but randomness isn't one of them. There are some people who seem determined to fail. It is their actions or how they handle obstacles that determine whether they are successful or fail.

There are some proven paths to success. Just take this industry. One way to help insure your success is to save your money until you can pay cash or at least have a good down payment with a cash reserve. They get a job, take notes and learn. That will not insure your success but it will go a long way toward being successful. On the other side are those who want the illusion of being an owner operator, so they become involved a lease purchase with a carrier. They have little or no experience, credit or money. Those who seem to be successful owner operators put their desires aside to achieve their goal. They will start with a truck they can afford rather than one that they want. They look at this as a business first. Those who succeed keep costs down. Those who fail start with a truck they cannot afford, buy all the toys they cannot afford and are surprised when they lose everything.

This is true in any industry, not just trucking. There are some who have made it on a shoe string. Those are few and far between. Success comes from planning and following your plan. They learn from their failures. Those who fail and continue to fail don't bother to plan and operate by the seat of their pants. They are surprised when success eludes them.

Success or failure are neither random. It comes from planning and hard work or lack thereof. Those who fail do not learn from previous failures. Nor do they learn from mistakes. They continue making the same mistakes over and over again expecting a different outcome. Nearly every previous owner operator who has worked for me knew more than I did about running a trucking company, yet they are out of business and are likely still struggling. They blame me or anyone or anything for their failures but themselves and their actions. I have managed to stay in business for many decades. It hasn't always been easy. There have been many challenges along the way. Surviving in this environment has been one of the most challenging. What is the difference? Whatever the reason it isn't random.


Why don't you read the book before you comment on it? Are you frightened that some of your precious sanctimonious assumptions might challenged?

You sound just like I imagine some of the Wall Street traders that Taleb describes must sound. Assuming that their success is a result of their hard work and superior intelligence, when in fact they have merely been lucky enough to be trading in a time interval in which tthe behavior of the market matches whatever their strategy happens to be. When the market forces shift they are unable to recognize the change and protect or modify their strategy. They blow up & lose everything.

One of the most successful people I know is someone I consider to be a complete azzhole. But when we were talking one day he told me this; You know, I've made a lot of money, and I worked really hard to do it. but I've been lucky too"

I'd say he gets it, you obviously don't. He probably doesn't need to read the book, you should.

[GMAN]

Why don't you read the book before you comment on it? Are you frightened that some of your precious sanctimonious assumptions might challenged?



I have no need to be frightened about ideas. As I stated earlier, this is not new. I read about it several decades ago. Feel free to challege any of my ideas or assumptions.



You sound just like I imagine some of the Wall Street traders that Taleb describes must sound. Assuming that their success is a result of their hard work and superior intelligence, when in fact they have merely been lucky enough to be trading in a time interval in which tthe behavior of the market matches whatever their strategy happens to be. When the market forces shift they are unable to recognize the change and protect or modify their strategy. They blow up & lose everything.


Making money in the stock market isn't rocket science. Those who make money trading do so by watching trends and taking advantage of those trends or cycles. Stocks have cycles. All of them have cycles. All it takes is a little money, a plan and patience. For everyone who makes money in the market someone will lose money. Those who lose money in the market usually do so by getting greedy. They don't follow those things which worked for them in the past. It is not random.



One of the most successful people I know is someone I consider to be a complete azzhole. But when we were talking one day he told me this; You know, I've made a lot of money, and I worked really hard to do it. but I've been lucky too"

I'd say he gets it, you obviously don't. He probably doesn't need to read the book, you should.


What some people call luck is preparation. You can get "lucky" if you are prepared. You prepare for success. When opportunities come along you are prepared and get "lucky." People who fail, usually do so by not preparing. Again, it isn't random. It has nothing to do with genetics. You either prepare for success of failure. It is a choice. I am not sure what good it would do for me to read a book about random success. If I am to be successful or fail then there is nothing that I can to to effect the outcome since everything is random.

We all have setbacks in our life. Einstein, Edison and others had many setbacks over their lifetime. Some would have called them failures. A failure would have given up. They learned by their failures and persevered. That was not random.

[Dejanh]

Read "Fooled By Randomness" by Nassim Nicholas Taleb. He has also written another excellent book; "The Black Swan"

I am convinced that a significant portion of success or failure in whatever portion of ones life is quite random. I also suspect that success does breed success in that catching one good break or making one smart/lucky choice can sometimes seemingly position one for another. I also think it works the same way in the other direction, which is why some people never seem to get a break or make any progress in life, no matter how hard they work.

I would like to know more about this study. The thought that there may be a genetically imprinted component intrigues me. I wonder if it could also possibly be some sort of learned behavior, either of which might help explain why one branch of my family seems to be able to fall in pig crop and come out smelling like bacon while my branch always seems to struggle, just missing out on the great chances.

Ive read Black Swan.....very interesting and a scary book at the same time which pretty much says that a failure of one single institution can bring about the collapse of all other....No one believed that there were black swans just like no one believed in the observation above.

[GMAN]

I think that success can breed more success just as failure can breed more failure. When you are surrounded by successful people or have successful role models in your life then you are more likely to take on those same traits. The same could be said about failure. When you see your role models as drug dealers or living off the government then you are likely to mimic the same behavior. Just as there will be some who will blow their chance at success even though they had every opportunity, including good role models, there will also be those who grow up in poverty who break out from their surroundings to achieve great success.

[LightsChromeHorsepower]

[QUOTE=GMAN;460098]I have no need to be frightened about ideas. As I stated earlier, this is not new. I read about it several decades ago. Feel free to challege any of my ideas or assumptions.

Where did you read about "it"? Please describe what you claim to have read.

Making money in the stock market isn't rocket science. Those who make money trading do so by watching trends and taking advantage of those trends or cycles. Stocks have cycles. All of them have cycles. All it takes is a little money, a plan and patience. For everyone who makes money in the market someone will lose money. Those who lose money in the market usually do so by getting greedy. They don't follow those things which worked for them in the past. It is not random.

This whole paragraph demonstrates your ignorance. Tell the guys writing the automatic trading algorithms that it's not rocket science. How many Nobel laureates did Long Term Capital have on their Board of Directors? Read "The (Mis)Behavior of Markets" by Benoit Mandelbrot and then make the above statement. Outliers exist and they will frock up every distribution they can. Markets, and indeed the universe as we know it, may well be fractal in nature.

What some people call luck is preparation. You can get "lucky" if you are prepared. You prepare for success. When opportunities come along you are prepared and get "lucky." People who fail, usually do so by not preparing. Again, it isn't random. It has nothing to do with genetics. You either prepare for success of failure. It is a choice. I am not sure what good it would do for me to read a book about random success. If I am to be successful or fail then there is nothing that I can to to effect the outcome since everything is random.

CAN YOU PLEASE READ THE BOOK BEFORE YOU START TO COMMENT ON IT?
In one of his books Taleb talks about someone who did a study of successful entrepreneurs and decided that the largest quality they had in common was a willingness to take risks and thus decided that to be successful a person needed that ability. Taleb pointed out that if they had done a study of FAILED entrepreneurs they probably would have found an equal, if not greater, willingness. Sometimes the very qualities that get you to a certain point in life keep you from going any further.

We all have setbacks in our life. Einstein, Edison and others had many setbacks over their lifetime. Some would have called them failures. A failure would have given up. They learned by their failures and persevered. That was not random

[I]What does that statement have to do with anything we are discussing here? What I read into it is that you will only get lucky if you keep gambling. I agree that randomness can't strike you if you quit. That's why I keep going, someday I will get another opportunity. I will also say that people like Einstein and Edison appear to pretty randomly distributed..[/QUOTE

[Orangetxguy]

Maybe it's me, but I never let anyone treat me with disrespect or try to screw me, no matter the circumstances, no matter the industry.


That is a BIG 10-4!!!


If anybody lets anybody else treat them poorly, or lets anybody else "screw them over", without correcting the wrong done, this contributes to the problem.

Standing up for yourself, and doing so in a straight forward and intellectual manner, puts an individual yards ahead of those whom sit on their hands and cry "Poor me"!!

[LightsChromeHorsepower]

Ive read Black Swan.....very interesting and a scary book at the same time which pretty much says that a failure of one single institution can bring about the collapse of all other....No one believed that there were black swans just like no one believed in the observation above.

That's why Long Term Capital Management was bailed out. It was the excuse given for bailing out AIG.

I say any business "Too big to fail" is actually too big to be allowed to exist to begin with. Of course if you want to stop companies from reaching such cancerous proportions you will need regulations and heaven knows we can't have that.

I think Taleb gave the mathematical odds of the 1987 Wall Street meltdown as somewhere in the quadrillions. But it still happened. How random is random? I was predicting a housing market correction in 2003. But I never imagined it would melt down like it has. I thought there would still be credit and that the demand for rentals would mushroom. Wrong on both counts. I'm not sure you could calculate the odds of the housing market behaving like it is, but it feels highly random to me.

[Dejanh]

That's why Long Term Capital Management was bailed out. It was the excuse given for bailing out AIG.

I say any business "Too big to fail" is actually too big to be allowed to exist to begin with. Of course if you want to stop companies from reaching such cancerous proportions you will need regulations and heaven knows we can't have that.

I think Taleb gave the mathematical odds of the 1987 Wall Street meltdown as somewhere in the quadrillions. But it still happened. How random is random? I was predicting a housing market correction in 2003. But I never imagined it would melt down like it has. I thought there would still be credit and that the demand for rentals would mushroom. Wrong on both counts. I'm not sure you could calculate the odds of the housing market behaving like it is, but it feels highly random to me.
I have followed Nasseb for quite a while, but one that i think i like the best is Marc Fiber as well as Jim Rogers

Only reason why we have not collapsed as a country is because of foreign capital...I strongly believe that sooner or later VERY hard times will come and they will come with a vengeance making the 30's look like a walk in a park. Back then our dollar was sound and tied to gold, government was small and we didnt have deficits and debt of these proportion that we have now......

I am afraid what will happen when foreign capital looses its trust in ours and our dollar which is steadly declining in its value..

We will see....

[LightsChromeHorsepower]

I have followed Nasseb for quite a while, but one that i think i like the best is Marc Fiber as well as Jim Rogers

Only reason why we have not collapsed as a country is because of foreign capital...I strongly believe that sooner or later VERY hard times will come and they will come with a vengeance making the 30's look like a walk in a park. Back then our dollar was sound and tied to gold, government was small and we didnt have deficits and debt of these proportion that we have now......

I am afraid what will happen when foreign capital looses its trust in ours and our dollar which is steadly declining in its value..

We will see....

Rogers isn't as much fun for me to read. I will check out the other guy, I've never heard of him. Did Rogers work for George Soros? Both Taleb and Soros reference Carl Popper in their writings so I have him on my list of books to read.

I agree with you on our dependence on foreign capital. I think the best we can hope for is decades of slogging it out. The alternatives could be very, very scary.

[GMAN]

[quote=GMAN;460098]I have no need to be frightened about ideas. As I stated earlier, this is not new. I read about it several decades ago. Feel free to challege any of my ideas or assumptions.

Where did you read about "it"? Please describe what you claim to have read.

It has been many years since I read about this. I don't recall much about it other than the concept.


Making money in the stock market isn't rocket science. Those who make money trading do so by watching trends and taking advantage of those trends or cycles. Stocks have cycles. All of them have cycles. All it takes is a little money, a plan and patience. For everyone who makes money in the market someone will lose money. Those who lose money in the market usually do so by getting greedy. They don't follow those things which worked for them in the past. It is not random.

This whole paragraph demonstrates your ignorance. Tell the guys writing the automatic trading algorithms that it's not rocket science. How many Nobel laureates did Long Term Capital have on their Board of Directors? Read "The (Mis)Behavior of Markets" by Benoit Mandelbrot and then make the above statement. Outliers exist and they will frock up every distribution they can. Markets, and indeed the universe as we know it, may well be fractal in nature.

I have made and lost a lot of money in the market. Like I said, it isn't all that complicated. You watch trends and invest accordingly. Some people make money by trying to make it complicated. Granted, there are events, such as a depression, which can mix things up a bit, but money can and will continue to be made in the market regardless of world events. There are those who will make money with this down economy just as they did during the Great Depression of 1929. When I lost money in the market it is because I got greedy and threw what was working out the window. Most people lose money in the market when they get greedy. I have always lost money when I listened to a broker, the so called professional. It seems to me as though you put too much faith in what others write.


What some people call luck is preparation. You can get "lucky" if you are prepared. You prepare for success. When opportunities come along you are prepared and get "lucky." People who fail, usually do so by not preparing. Again, it isn't random. It has nothing to do with genetics. You either prepare for success of failure. It is a choice. I am not sure what good it would do for me to read a book about random success. If I am to be successful or fail then there is nothing that I can to to effect the outcome since everything is random.

CAN YOU PLEASE READ THE BOOK BEFORE YOU START TO COMMENT ON IT?
In one of his books Taleb talks about someone who did a study of successful entrepreneurs and decided that the largest quality they had in common was a willingness to take risks and thus decided that to be successful a person needed that ability. Taleb pointed out that if they had done a study of FAILED entrepreneurs they probably would have found an equal, if not greater, willingness. Sometimes the very qualities that get you to a certain point in life keep you from going any further.

I have only been commenting on what you have written. I don't need to read a book to comment on your words. I do agree that to be successful you need to take risks. You will never be successful unless you are willing to take a risk. I believe the difference is in the type of risk one is willing to take. Those who succeed are single minded and stay focused on their goal. They don't give up. When they have a setback they move on or take a different direction. Those who fail give up and don't even try again.


We all have setbacks in our life. Einstein, Edison and others had many setbacks over their lifetime. Some would have called them failures. A failure would have given up. They learned by their failures and persevered. That was not random

[I]What does that statement have to do with anything we are discussing here? What I read into it is that you will only get lucky if you keep gambling. I agree that randomness can't strike you if you quit. That's why I keep going, someday I will get another opportunity. I will also say that people like Einstein and Edison appear to pretty randomly distributed..[/QUOTE

I never said anything about gambling. If you believe that random events control your success or failure without any contribution from you then you would not continue to try. I was not talking about Einstein and Edison personally, only their achievements. They succeeded because they refused to give up. It had nothing to do with randomness. Again, you assume that I am commenting on the book itself. I am only commenting on your statements about the book.

[Dejanh]

One thing that all of these guys have in common is their belief in free market capitalism which we do not have right now, and never actualy had even though it is getting blaimed for the current downturn.


If you are following financial news and things like that, Marc Fiber is the one who publishes that well known ,,gloom,boom,doom'' report that everyone references all the time when it comes to the market and its description and value. They all agree that these massive bailouts will hurt us in the long run and make things a'lot worse, and when i, as a regular Joe Jack start thinking about it and digging below the surface a bit, i come to the same conclusion no matter how optimistic i want to be.....simple fact that Americans debt to earning ratio is about 380%, sends chills down my spine, and when you have economy which is purely consumer driven, you get the point...how long can it go on..?

[GMAN]

That's why Long Term Capital Management was bailed out. It was the excuse given for bailing out AIG.

I say any business "Too big to fail" is actually too big to be allowed to exist to begin with. Of course if you want to stop companies from reaching such cancerous proportions you will need regulations and heaven knows we can't have that.

I think Taleb gave the mathematical odds of the 1987 Wall Street meltdown as somewhere in the quadrillions. But it still happened. How random is random? I was predicting a housing market correction in 2003. But I never imagined it would melt down like it has. I thought there would still be credit and that the demand for rentals would mushroom. Wrong on both counts. I'm not sure you could calculate the odds of the housing market behaving like it is, but it feels highly random to me.


No business is or should be too big to fail. I have a couple of friends with whom we have discussed this depression for the last few years. I think we all agree that it happened with greater severity that we had hoped. The trends were there for anyone who cared to see and compare to history. The events that led to this collapse were pretty much identical to what happened in 1929. Safeguards that were put into place after the crash were supposed to have stopped this from happening again. The problem is that these safeguards were removed over the last couple of decades. History repeats itself. All you need do is read and learn. What happened during this collapse was a result of a number of events, some of which I believe were contrived. Prior to the crash of 1929 credit was too easy and people were trading in the stock market in record numbers. Most people thought they would always make money in the market. They over invested. When the inevitable collapse happened and their margins were called they lost everything they had. Margin accounts were only 10%. That changed to 50% after the crash, but it still happened. Both then and now there were similarities for those who would only open their eyes. I did think the collapse would happen before it did. Neither of these world events were random. They were a result of a chain of events.

[Dejanh]

No business is or should be too big to fail. I have a couple of friends with whom we have discussed this depression for the last few years. I think we all agree that it happened with greater severity that we had hoped. The trends were there for anyone who cared to see and compare to history. The events that led to this collapse were pretty much identical to what happened in 1929. Safeguards that were put into place after the crash were supposed to have stopped this from happening again. The problem is that these safeguards were removed over the last couple of decades. History repeats itself. All you need do is read and learn. What happened during this collapse was a result of a number of events, some of which I believe were contrived. Prior to the crash of 1929 credit was too easy and people were trading in the stock market in record numbers. Most people thought they would always make money in the market. They over invested. When the inevitable collapse happened and their margins were called they lost everything they had. Margin accounts were only 10%. That changed to 50% after the crash, but it still happened. Both then and now there were similarities for those who would only open their eyes. I did think the collapse would happen before it did. Neither of these world events were random. They were a result of a chain of events.
Problem with the current downturn is that the government is getting in the way of the system cleansing itself of all the bad investment. Thats what the recession should be all about.

We have had the recession and still HAVE IT, yet, no cleansing has occurred. What happened to all the bad investment, its still there buried underneath the carpet somewhere waiting to pop out..All the junk had been bought by our government and not only that, our government has created and borrowed trillions on top of trillions to plug up the hole this recession has created........


...and the bad investments are still there...

That is why i think this downturn is much more severe than it appears to be for one, as well as could be much worse than the depression of the 30's which really was not that long ago....

We are in a zombie state of mind right now as we have been given too much government medicine(stimulus). What happens when a stimulus(alcohol) wears off. Thats what scares me. After you get drunk you have a hangover, its just that this hangovert might be mother of them all. Lets hope not !

[BigDiesel]

Yawn.... I have never put to much stock into what loadit blathers about.... Kevin0915 has more credibility... But LCH is partially on track though....

[GMAN]

Problem with the current downturn is that the government is getting in the way of the system cleansing itself of all the bad investment. Thats what the recession should be all about.

We have had the recession and still HAVE IT, yet, no cleansing has occurred. What happened to all the bad investment, its still there buried underneath the carpet somewhere waiting to pop out..All the junk had been bought by our government and not only that, our government has created and borrowed trillions on top of trillions to plug up the hole this recession has created........


...and the bad investments are still there...

That is why i think this downturn is much more severe than it appears to be for one, as well as could be much worse than the depression of the 30's which really was not that long ago....

We are in a zombie state of mind right now as we have been given too much government medicine(stimulus). What happens when a stimulus(alcohol) wears off. Thats what scares me. After you get drunk you have a hangover, its just that this hangovert might be mother of them all. Lets hope not !


With the bailout the government is rewarding inefficiency and corrupt behavior. When you reward bad behavior then that reinforces that behavior where it will repeat itself. Contrary to what the media and Obama administration would like us to believe, this is not over by a long shot. All the government has done is prolong the agony. We have a government that is out of control and has lost touch with reality.

[Dejanh]

With the bailout the government is rewarding inefficiency and corrupt behavior. When you reward bad behavior then that reinforces that behavior where it will repeat itself. Contrary to what the media and Obama administration would like us to believe, this is not over by a long shot. All the government has done is prolong the agony. We have a government that is out of control and has lost touch with reality.
Obama has only continued the Bush policy of money pumping and bailouts/stimulus packages....

Our entire economy favors only spending, not production and savings which make ones economy strong, untill we face our problems head on, we will never recover.

[RostyC]

That is a BIG 10-4!!!


If anybody lets anybody else treat them poorly, or lets anybody else "screw them over", without correcting the wrong done, this contributes to the problem.

Standing up for yourself, and doing so in a straight forward and intellectual manner, puts an individual yards ahead of those whom sit on their hands and cry "Poor me"!!

There's times I've forgotten to be intellectual about it. :moon: :D

[LightsChromeHorsepower]

[quote=LightsChromeHorsepower;460109]

I never said anything about gambling. If you believe that random events control your success or failure without any contribution from you then you would not continue to try. I was not talking about Einstein and Edison personally, only their achievements. They succeeded because they refused to give up. It had nothing to do with randomness. Again, you assume that I am commenting on the book itself. I am only commenting on your statements about the book.

How can you determine the validity of my statements about the book, and/or place them in context if you haven't read the book?

You can't!

You are basically talking trash about something (The book) that you know nothing about.

Are you related to Kevin somehow?

[LightsChromeHorsepower]

One thing that all of these guys have in common is their belief in free market capitalism which we do not have right now, and never actualy had even though it is getting blaimed for the current downturn.


If you are following financial news and things like that, Marc Fiber is the one who publishes that well known ,,gloom,boom,doom'' report that everyone references all the time when it comes to the market and its description and value. They all agree that these massive bailouts will hurt us in the long run and make things a'lot worse, and when i, as a regular Joe Jack start thinking about it and digging below the surface a bit, i come to the same conclusion no matter how optimistic i want to be.....simple fact that Americans debt to earning ratio is about 380%, sends chills down my spine, and when you have economy which is purely consumer driven, you get the point...how long can it go on..?

I'll check out Fiber. Up until a year or two ago I always defended things, saying that we would muddle through. I'm starting to have serious doubts.

I do believe that a lot of our current problems stem from a lack of intelligent regulation, which resulted in a virtual takeover of our country by the financial industry. They pretty got to do whatever they wanted,(Enron, World Com, The tech bubble, Long Term Capital Management, Bernie Madoff, sub prime mortgage securitization, AIG) and now that it blew up on them, they want us (taxpayers, the very people they lied to and screwed to get where they are) to bail them out. Meanwhile the CEO's of the top 10 bailouts are getting between 6 million (Richard Davis, US Bankorp) and 54 million (Lloyd Blankfien, Goldman Sachs) in salaries this year. It's outrageous and it's far in excess of what CEO's in any other nation are paid. In terms of real production and benefit to our economy none of these guys are worth more than 10 times what a competent truckdriver is and if the driver does hazmat or OD they aren't worth that.

Add in the enormous budget and current account deficits we have been running, consider our horrifically inefficient health care system, the huge amounts we spend on prisons and the military and it seems obvious to me that we are not going to be able to remain competitive in a global economy. If China, Japan and the Arabs start calling in what we owe them, we are in deep doo doo. If the planet adopts another reserve currency we are in deep doo doo. When you look at the possible outcomes of our current situation, there are a lot more bad ones than good.

This whole situation would be really entertaining to me if I wasn't so heavily invested.

[GMAN]

Those executives are paid a lot of money because they make a lot of money for their shareholders. I have a problem with any of these companies giving huge sums of money to any employee when their companies are essentially bankrupt, especially with taxpayer dollars. I would much rather see executives make big sums by pushing for innovative ways in which to manufacture products in this country.

I am not sure that our health care system is inefficient. It is just expensive. Most practice defensive medicine.

[LightsChromeHorsepower]

Those executives are paid a lot of money because they make a lot of money for their shareholders.

Then why are they being paid millions when their companies are being bailed out? Our CEO's are, on average, paid far more than those in other nations, such as Japan. If our executives are worth that much more, why are the Japanese buying us? Shouldn't it be the other way around?

I am not sure that our health care system is inefficient. It is just expensive. Most practice defensive medicine.

We spend a vastly greater percentage of our GDP on health care than any other industrialized nation AND the results we get, by any measure, are nowhere commensurate with what we spend. One survey, by the World Health Organization, ranks us 37th in overall health care quality, just ahead of Slovenia. Our system is broken by any rational standard.


I have to leave out for an AM delivery. It may be a few days before I get back to answer any more of your blather and drivel.

[GMAN]

You asked why executives were paid so much money. I answered. You didn't like my answer so you leveled personal attacks. If you don't want an honest answer then don't ask the question. Companies don't care what other countries pay their executives. I do think that these financial institutions should freeze any bonuses and major salary increases until they can pay the government back. I can agree that some of these executives are over paid for running their companies into the ground. On the other hand, some are paid by performance. I have no problem paying anyone on performance. I do have a problem paying an executive when they don't perform. But then, it really doesn't make any difference what I think. It is the stockholders who decide if the CEO or other executives who run THEIR company is over paid. It is none of the government's business how much they are paid unless they are a stockholder.

Contrary to what you have stated, we have the best healthcare system in the world. I would trust our medical personnel over any other country. There are problems but it would be compounded if the government takes over the system. This country leads the world in development of drugs and medical innovations. The problem with the system is the government and lawyers. We have way too much of both that are involved in our healthcare. Insurance companies are also too involved in our healthcare. With all of the problems, we still have the best healthcare in the world.

If you feel that I am putting forth drivel then feel free to not respond. I can't believe you would put any credibility in anything the World Health Organization would put forth.

[BanditsCousin]

I think we rank 37th or so on healthcare in the world. But I would agree a lot of innovations in the medical field are right here.

[SickRick]

I think we rank 37th or so on healthcare in the world. But I would agree a lot of innovations in the medical field are right here.

Crying shame so few of us can afford to avail ourselves of them (the innovations)...

I'm paying $695 a month for my insurance (Aetna HMO). Can't actually afford to see a DOCTOR - but it does make my meds cheeper (then again, I had them re-written as generics so I can drop the insurance). When I'm REALLY feeling crappy - I go the emergency room up the street - hospital is on contract with Aetna, $60 co-pay - all the TESTS I want/need - best way to fly 1st class on a coach budget.

If Comrade Obama this his healthcare plan is all that great, then why, when he and members of Congress are asked if they would GIVE UP their REALLY GREAT LIFETIME FREE HEALTHCARE for this plan - NOT ONE OF THEM SAID THEY WOULD - most common comment; NO COMMENT...

Rick

[LightsChromeHorsepower]

Contrary to what you have stated, we have the best healthcare system in the world.

I challenge you to prove that statement.

[GMAN]

No one is turned away when they are ill in this country. I can only relate my personal experience. My wife has a number of serious health issues. If we lived in Canada or another country where healthcare is rationed she may not have gotten some of the care she has experienced over the years. Under the Obama and other socialist healthcare systems she could have been dead before receiving any healthcare. In fact, with all of her health problems they would not want her to be treated since she would use more than her fair share of healthcare. This country has developed most of the new drugs that have been developed over the years. Thing such as organ transplants were pioneered by American doctors. We were doing heart transplants before any other country in the world. Doctors such as Debakey, Coolidge and others were some of the early heart transplant surgeons. And don't forget about the first artificial heart. These were all American doctors. Innovations is surgical procedures such as microscopic surgery were also started in the U.S. The system has it's flaws, but I would still trust my health to most U.S. healthcare providers over any other place on the planet. I would be interested in knowing what criteria the World Health Organization used to establish their ranking. Sometimes it is how you ask a question. I don't necessarily put much credence in any of these type of rankings without knowing more about how they were done.

[BanditsCousin]

Switching gears to education in 5...4...3...2...

:)

[Dejanh]

I do not think this country has a bad healthcare service, but i do think that for the money that it is charging, it should be some ten billion light years away from any other in the world.

I cannot imagine why would people keep on attacking this administration when it comes to their plan for health care and its so called ,, rationing''...
EVERY SINGLE PROCEDURE THAT HAD TO BE DONE ON BOTH OF MY PARENTS, HAD TO BE APPROVED BY THE INSURANCE FIRST. Some of them were not approved and they were not done, PERIOD.

This is right now, the rationing that is going on within the system as we speak, yet these lies keep on popping up about these death panels, rations, lines, pull the line on granny..its just sad to see Americans prove to the rest of the world just how big of a idiots we are.

1.5 trillion over ten years is NOTHING in comparison with the massive millitary spending that we have..
If we only brought out boys home we could buy the ****ing continent, yet we continue on this path with no end in sight and hope for the best. WEll, the best aint coming unless we make it come, and no one will bring it to us.

Only very good thing about this economic downturn is that it actualy started to hurt us. Unless it starts to hurt you never know that there is a problem but unfortunately, everything we are doing is opposite of what we should do.

[LightsChromeHorsepower]

no one is turned away when they are ill in this country.

and that is a big part of why our health care costs are out of control. Because so many lack access to basic care they end up being treated in emergency rooms, after their condition has worsened. At a much higher cost.

I can only relate my personal experience.

If you have never experienced other countries health care, how can you compare?

My wife has a number of serious health issues. If we lived in canada or another country where healthcare is rationed she may not have gotten some of the care she has experienced over the years. Under the obama and other socialist healthcare systems she could have been dead before receiving any healthcare. In fact, with all of her health problems they would not want her to be treated since she would use more than her fair share of healthcare.

First- Didn't you just say above that nobody is denied access to treatment in this country?

Second- Those are simple lies. She would get all the care she needed in any other industrialized nation. It's American insurance companies that have the horrible reputations for denying treatments to patients. I can cite two personal friends who have just experienced this. One is being denied tests she wants done by Kaiser. The other just lost his teenage daughter to cancer after taking her out of the local hospital and getting her to Stanford where they provided much more aggressive treatment, which will likely be at her parents expense. I could go on and on about this one.

I challenge you to show me anything in the Obama plan that would in any way "ration" health care. This is like the increased taxes you claim you will be paying under Obama and like your assertion that the U.S. has the best health care in the world. I've challenged you to prove these & you can't. Because they simply aren't true.

This country has developed most of the new drugs that have been developed over the years. Thing such as organ transplants were pioneered by American doctors. We were doing heart transplants before any other country in the world. Doctors such as Debakey, Coolidge and others were some of the early heart transplant surgeons. And don't forget about the first artificial heart. These were all American doctors. Innovations is surgical procedures such as microscopic surgery were also started in the u.s. The system has it's flaws, but I would still trust my health to most U.S. Healthcare providers over any other place on the planet. I would be interested in knowing what criteria the world health organization used to establish their ranking. Sometimes it is how you ask a question. I don't necessarily put much credence in any of these type of rankings without knowing more about how they were done.

Of the 10 largest pharmaceutical companies in the world (by revenue) 4 are from the U.S. I think that disproves your first sentence above. The rest of the paragraph is equally brainwashed. In fact many people now leave the U.S. To get more affordable health care in other countries. If I wanted the best health care, I would go to France. It leads in most rankings and I have a former employee who owns a house there. He & his wife spend a as much time as they can there & they think they get better care there than here. The simple truth is that we spend a far higher percentage of our gdp on health care than any other industrialized nation and do not have a level of results anywhere near commensurate with our expenditures. If we do not correct this (along with the huge sums we spend on prisons and our military) we will soon be bankrupt, spending so much to service our debt that we will not be able to afford the infrastructure or educational systems that we so desperately need to compete in a global, high-tech, information based economy. Then we will all suffer, trust me.

xxxxx

[LightsChromeHorsepower]

Switching gears to education in 5...4...3...2...

:)

I'm not sure he's educatable.

If you talk to our good neighbor, Mr. Booth, tell him to check out my new avatar. Bumper stickers are $3.00 each & I got tee shirts coming.

And jumping this thread totally off the tracks-

I was checking out the Cal Jobs website last night, a truck driving school around Sacramento wants to hire an instructor- for 12 bucks an hour. Would any of you trust somebody making that little to teach somebody how to drive an 80,000 pound truck down the highway?

[mike3fan]

If you talk to our good neighbor, Mr. Booth, tell him to check out my new avatar. Bumper stickers are $3.00 each & I got tee shirts coming.



I guess I'll take 10 of those stickers and $30 bucks, you are paying us to take that crap right?

[Dejanh]

xxxxx
People are scared of the unknown and expecially scared if more and more lies are piled up into this conversation.

Mike, I have expirienced health care service in other countries, Croatia for one, and in the ,,anything&everything'' section of this forum, i have explained this clearly. My parents have done many procedures there and check this out, EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE AMERICAN, they have payed the same cost as their regular citizens. You cannot simply blast everything that you may be against expecially if you have not expirienced it.

If your whole life you have been tought one thing, that will be the only thing you know. It is very different when you look at the things from the outside looking in, then from the inside. You dont know how much we are overpaying for something utill you compare it with something else.

$4500 for a 20min.MRI is not too much, its a waay too much no matter if you are Republican or Democrat.

[LightsChromeHorsepower]

I guess I'll take 10 of those stickers and $30 bucks, you are paying us to take that crap right?

Just send me your address & I'll get your "package" in the mail.

[LightsChromeHorsepower]

If your whole life you have been tought one thing, that will be the only thing you know. It is very different when you look at the things from the outside looking in, then from the inside. .

It's called provincialism. We seem to awash in it in this country. I was lucky. I got to visit 15 foreign countries as a teenager, with teachers there to help me place what I was seeing in context. I've since visited a few others on my own as an adult. Having just the most basic comprehension of other cultures been both a blessing and a burden all through my life. In some ways I think it would be easier if I could forget all that I have seen and just listen to talk radio for my education. I would be a he** of a lot more certain about everything............even though I would be wrong!

[GMAN]

We already have rationed healthcare in this country if you are on public healthcare. Government sponsored insurance already limits how may prescriptions they will pay for per month. That is not likely to change with the Obama healthcare system.

There are those who use the emergency room for their healthcare needs. Some are serious and others go there to be treated for a cold. I know since I have been in the emergency room on a number of occasions with my wife and experienced it first hand. Much of our current healthcare costs come from illegals going to our emergency rooms. I know this due to family members who work in healthcare. I have also seen this first hand as well as talking with healthcare workers while in the hospital with my wife. Illegals are on the verge of bankrupting many hospitals across this country. It should not be up to the U.S. government to provide healthcare to illegals. It is time for our politicians to find their backbone and do the right thing.

I have spoken to a number of Canadians about their healthcare. With rare exceptions most think it is great unless you are chronically ill or need a major surgical procedure. You may get it or not. And you don't have to take my word for it. Many have been interviewed on TV over the years and there are thousands who come to this country for surgical procedures each year. There are numerous stories that have been reported on the news.

As far as taxes and the Obama spending binge are concerned. If you think that this administration or any other for that matter, can increase the size of government without raising taxes then you are very naive and don't understand how the world works. Any time you add a bureaucracy such as the healthcare plan to our government you WILL increase taxes. According to some figures that I have read the Obama stimulus plan brings all the taxes up to about 60% of what we earn. The healthcare proposal will only increase taxes further. Simple logistics will tell you that when you add 40 or 50 million people's healthcare costs to the public budget you will need to raise taxes to pay for it. This country is on the verge of bankruptcy as it is. I have NEVER known of any government proposal to meet or be less than what was proposed. It is usually several times the estimate. They use lower estimates so that the American people will buy their tax program.

Obama promised no new taxes for anyone making less than $250,000/year. No one with any common sense would have bought into that, but millions apparently did. This government has always been primarily supported by the middle class. That will not change unless the way in which the government raises revenue changes. Obama has promised to tax the coal industry into oblivion. We have many coal power plants across the country. Each tax increase imposed by them will be passed on to the consumer. That is mostly the middle class. Other taxes he has in the works will likely include an increase on fuel taxes. When does it end? When will those of you who want to live off the government begin to understand that the government is us. The government has no business deciding how or where we get our healthcare. There are many other instances where the government has decided to interfere in private business and that has never worked out for the better.

Healthcare is expensive. Nationalizing it is not the answer. Another government run agency is not the answer. If you want things to cost less then we can make changes to the industry that will actually work. We can take healthcare decisions out of the hands of the insurance industry and the government. Healthcare decisions should be made by the patient and their doctor. The more people who get involved in the decision process means that costs will increase. Tort reform is another way to reduce costs. Limiting how and when lawsuits can take place and the amount is one way to reduce costs. Another is to keep the government out of the decision making process. One other thing that will reduce costs over night is to send all these illegals back to where they came. This one thing alone could reduce costs by many millions of dollars over night. Fixing the problem isn't complicated. All it takes is the will. When I was growing up most people went to their doctor and paid for their visit out of their own pocket. If they were given a prescription they went to the pharmacy, had it filled and paid for it out of their own pocket. You see, by having the government and insurance companies paying for doctor visits and prescriptions reduces competition and raises costs. If we all had to pay for our prescriptions we would see a dramatic decrease in prescription costs.

[LightsChromeHorsepower]

xxxxx

[Dejanh]

We already have rationed healthcare in this country if you are on public healthcare. Government sponsored insurance already limits how may prescriptions they will pay for per month. That is not likely to change with the Obama healthcare system.

My brother has a Celebral Palsy and has Medicaid. He recieved a booklet which explained to him what doctors accept medicaid and where he may choose to go. It just happend that pretty much every doctor takes Medicaid in this program but since my brother is lazy he never went to see one ever since he turned 18.

It's not rationed, its about who accepts the program, in this case Medicaid.

There are those who use the emergency room for their healthcare needs. Some are serious and others go there to be treated for a cold. I know since I have been in the emergency room on a number of occasions with my wife and experienced it first hand. Much of our current healthcare costs come from illegals going to our emergency rooms. I know this due to family members who work in healthcare. I have also seen this first hand as well as talking with healthcare workers while in the hospital with my wife. Illegals are on the verge of bankrupting many hospitals across this country. It should not be up to the U.S. government to provide healthcare to illegals. It is time for our politicians to find their backbone and do the right thing.
It is easy to blame the illegals for everything. I have also been to many EM's with my parents and I am yet to see one, really. In Charlotte we have a'lot of clinics who take people without insurance and they are thriving. I know since i went there for my regular check-ups. $120 complete blood work. Many of those illegals you are referring too built this country for minimum wages. Most of their money is spent here and THEY PAY TAXES BUT, cannot do taxes at the beggining of the year because our government would not issue them the papers, so they end up not recieving their refund at all.

If you sent every illegal person out of this country then WE WOULD NOT BE WHAT WE ARE. Hitler tried it with Jews, it didnt work. Illegals made us who we are. Chinese built our railroad up west.


I have spoken to a number of Canadians about their healthcare. With rare exceptions most think it is great unless you are chronically ill or need a major surgical procedure. You may get it or not. And you don't have to take my word for it. Many have been interviewed on TV over the years and there are thousands who come to this country for surgical procedures each year. There are numerous stories that have been reported on the news. Whoever told you this, told you a lie. If you need surgery you will get it. They dont run concetration camps up there in Canada Mike, common. People who come here for their surgeries better be rich. I have yet to hear this nonsence. Only thing i hear is people jumping borders from here to there, not the other way around.

As far as taxes and the Obama spending binge are concerned. If you think that this administration or any other for that matter, can increase the size of government without raising taxes then you are very naive and don't understand how the world works. Any time you add a bureaucracy such as the healthcare plan to our government you WILL increase taxes. According to some figures that I have read the Obama stimulus plan brings all the taxes up to about 60% of what we earn. The healthcare proposal will only increase taxes further. Simple logistics will tell you that when you add 40 or 50 million people's healthcare costs to the public budget you will need to raise taxes to pay for it. This country is on the verge of bankruptcy as it is. I have NEVER known of any government proposal to meet or be less than what was proposed. It is usually several times the estimate. They use lower estimates so that the American people will buy their tax program. Taxes that would be raised cannot compare to the money we are bleeding as a nation right now. All of these bailouts and whatnot have to be payed for somehow. Americans want EVERYTHING for nothing. Well, if we want bases on every continent and stupid wars, we have to pay for it.....

Obama promised no new taxes for anyone making less than $250,000/year. No one with any common sense would have bought into that, but millions apparently did. This government has always been primarily supported by the middle class. That will not change unless the way in which the government raises revenue changes. Obama has promised to tax the coal industry into oblivion. We have many coal power plants across the country. Each tax increase imposed by them will be passed on to the consumer. That is mostly the middle class. Other taxes he has in the works will likely include an increase on fuel taxes. When does it end? When will those of you who want to live off the government begin to understand that the government is us. The government has no business deciding how or where we get our healthcare. There are many other instances where the government has decided to interfere in private business and that has never worked out for the better.
Rush Limbaugh politics. I hear him say how Obama wants to mandate circuimcision as well.
If you think that i fall under that category of wanting to live off of the government, then you are mistaken. I never once recieved anything and have worked really hard to have what I have, and i can tell you this. I payed taxes under Bush as well, as a matter of fact most of my taxes went up, including property tax as well as my fuel tax, my sales tax and my truck registration too. North Carolina had a REpublicans in charge.

I respect you too much to put you up in the same category i put in alot of these idiots i see on TV. Pretty much everything you say i get but only because i know that we have been thought to think that way. If you only get to live in Australia or Switzerland for a year, you would come back a brand new you. I put my life on it.

[GMAN]

My brother has a Celebral Palsy and has Medicaid. He recieved a booklet which explained to him what doctors accept medicaid and where he may choose to go. It just happend that pretty much every doctor takes Medicaid in this program but since my brother is lazy he never went to see one ever since he turned 18.

It's not rationed, its about who accepts the program, in this case Medicaid.



I have known a couple of people who have been on the government program and have a neighbor who works for one of the insurance companies who administer the program in my state. The main thing they ration are prescriptions under their program. For the most part they do receive the medical care providing they have a doctor in the area who will accept the insurance. If not the patient could have to drive to another city to receive medical care. The patient has little to say about any doctor they may want to see. Many of those who accept medicaid are foreign nationals. Patients are also discharged prematurely from hospitals in some cases. They have really tightened up on some of their spending in recent years. Before you can go to a specialist you must have pre approval. If the doctor doesn't receive the approval prior to your appointment then you cannot see the doctor. It is a bureaucratic maze. At this time the main problem is with prescriptions, at least in my area. It seems to me as though they spend $10 to save $1.


It is easy to blame the illegals for everything. I have also been to many EM's with my parents and I am yet to see one, really. In Charlotte we have a'lot of clinics who take people without insurance and they are thriving. I know since i went there for my regular check-ups. $120 complete blood work. Many of those illegals you are referring too built this country for minimum wages. Most of their money is spent here and THEY PAY TAXES BUT, cannot do taxes at the beginning of the year because our government would not issue them the papers, so they end up not receiving their refund at all.



I don't blame the illegals for everything. They are a major contributing factor. Illegals or those who are here on work visa's don't pay taxes. I have customers who employ them. There is also a county about 30 miles from me that has a Hispanic population of more than 30%. To the west there is also a large Hispanic population. While it seems more of a problem for the border states there are pockets across the country where there are large groups of both legal and illegals. I believe those who come here legally don't have to pay taxes for a certain amount of time according to one shipper whom I know who mostly employs Mexicans. And much of their money is sent back to their homeland. They may pay sales tax on purchases but it is my understanding that they are not required to pay income or social security taxes as long as they don't exceed the time limit. And even though they don't contribute to social security they may still collect. They can also collect food stamps and other government assistance. We pay for all of that with higher taxes.




If you sent every illegal person out of this country then WE WOULD NOT BE WHAT WE ARE. Hitler tried it with Jews, it didn't work. Illegals made us who we are. Chinese built our railroad up west.


Legal immigrants have made great contributions to this nation. I don't have a problem with those who go through the legal process to get here. My problem is with those who come here illegally. Most of the Jews that Hitler killed were natives of Germany. He just needed someone to blame for the woes of Germany. Since many Jews were land owners and business owners they were a good target when the economy was in the toilet. The world was in a depression. He made it appear that the Jews were the cause. When you say something long enough and with conviction some people will eventually believe you.



Whoever told you this, told you a lie. If you need surgery you will get it. They dont run concetration camps up there in Canada Mike, common. People who come here for their surgeries better be rich. I have yet to hear this nonsence. Only thing i hear is people jumping borders from here to there, not the other way around.


It was Canadians in Toronto who told me about not always being able to get needed surgeries. There have also been stories on the national media stating the same thing. The only time I have heard about Americans crossing the border into Canada or Mexico is to buy their prescriptions. They can save a lot of money by going to either country.
[/quote]


Taxes that would be raised cannot compare to the money we are bleeding as a nation right now. All of these bailouts and whatnot have to be payed for somehow. Americans want EVERYTHING for nothing. Well, if we want bases on every continent and stupid wars, we have to pay for it.....



You are right about all the reckless spending. What we are spending on the wars is minimal as to what we spend on various social programs. Many Americans do expect a lot for nothing. There was a time when an American would rather starve than ask for a handout from the government or anyone else for that matter. Unfortunately, there are too many today who think that they deserve a paycheck or other services from the government. That attitude is killing this country. We will pay a very heavy price for allowing the government to take care of us.



Rush Limbaugh politics. I hear him say how Obama wants to mandate circumcision as well.
If you think that i fall under that category of wanting to live off of the government, then you are mistaken. I never once received anything and have worked really hard to have what I have, and i can tell you this. I payed taxes under Bush as well, as a matter of fact most of my taxes went up, including property tax as well as my fuel tax, my sales tax and my truck registration too. North Carolina had a Republicans in charge.

I respect you too much to put you up in the same category i put in alot of these idiots i see on TV. Pretty much everything you say i get but only because i know that we have been thought to think that way. If you only get to live in Australia or Switzerland for a year, you would come back a brand new you. I put my life on it.


I haven't heard anything about circumcision. I wasn't directing what I said at you. My taxes also went up this year. The more services we demand from the government the more taxes will need to be collected to pay for them. I prefer paying my own way with my own money. I can do a much better job of spending my money than any government entity. And one thing that I can guarantee is that I can get much more for my money that the government.

As I stated earlier, there are things which need to be addressed in our healthcare. Socialization is not the answer. I don't want the government that involved in my life. I have to deal with their nonsense enough as it is.

[LightsChromeHorsepower]

We already have rationed healthcare in this country if you are on public healthcare.

We already have single payer if you are a member of Congress. Why shouldn't our elected officials get the same care as the rest of us? Maybe what we get isn't good enough for them?

Government sponsored insurance already limits how may prescriptions they will pay for per month. That is not likely to change with the Obama healthcare system.

What "government sponsored insurance" are you referring to, what are the limits and how many people actually have an issue with them?

There are those who use the emergency room for their healthcare needs. Some are serious and others go there to be treated for a cold. I know since I have been in the emergency room on a number of occasions with my wife and experienced it first hand. Much of our current healthcare costs come from illegals going to our emergency rooms. I know this due to family members who work in healthcare. I have also seen this first hand as well as talking with healthcare workers while in the hospital with my wife. Illegals are on the verge of bankrupting many hospitals across this country. It should not be up to the U.S. government to provide healthcare to illegals. It is time for our politicians to find their backbone and do the right thing.

Now you are trying to blame it all on the Mexicans. It's really beneath me to answer this, but I'll point out that first, for the amount of money we spend relative to other nations we should be able to afford to treat every illegal immigrant with ease, second that other nations have equally large populations of illegal immigrants and manage to offer them better care than we do. Check this story out for a sense of just how ugly things have become; How L.A.'s massive free clinic event came together -- latimes.com (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-health-clinic16-2009aug16,0,3772428.story)

I have spoken to a number of Canadians about their healthcare. With rare exceptions most think it is great unless you are chronically ill or need a major surgical procedure. You may get it or not. And you don't have to take my word for it. Many have been interviewed on TV over the years and there are thousands who come to this country for surgical procedures each year. There are numerous stories that have been reported on the news.

There are way more Americans traveling abroad for health care than there are Canadians coming here. "Medical Tourism" as it's called is expected to reach 40 billion dollars per year shortly. Do you think that is an indication that we have the world's best health care? When we have our citizens going to places like Mexico and Thailand for health care to the tune of 40 bil a year? Here's a link; http://www.patientsbeyondborders.com/media-room/faq.php

And for what it's worth, one of our drivers quit a couple of months ago. His wife is a Canadian citizen. Any guesses as to why they moved to BC?

As far as taxes and the Obama spending binge are concerned. If you think that this administration or any other for that matter, can increase the size of government without raising taxes then you are very naive and don't understand how the world works. Any time you add a bureaucracy such as the healthcare plan to our government you WILL increase taxes. According to some figures that I have read the Obama stimulus plan brings all the taxes up to about 60% of what we earn. The healthcare proposal will only increase taxes further. Simple logistics will tell you that when you add 40 or 50 million people's healthcare costs to the public budget you will need to raise taxes to pay for it. This country is on the verge of bankruptcy as it is. I have NEVER known of any government proposal to meet or be less than what was proposed. It is usually several times the estimate. They use lower estimates so that the American people will buy their tax program.

What too many people don't seem to understand is that the amount we spend on health care is not going to increase if we change to a single payer system. Right now 30% of every dollar spent on health care goes into the pockets of the insurance industry. How could government be any less efficient than that? Any additional taxes you pay to fund health care will be offset by not having to buy insurance. In fact, there should be a net savings throughout the economy as a whole. Businesses will be more profitable because they will not have to provide health benefits to current or past employees. The only people who will lose are the insurance industry fat cats and the politicians that they contribute billions to. If you have a problem with that, it's your problem.

Obama promised no new taxes for anyone making less than $250,000/year. No one with any common sense would have bought into that, but millions apparently did. This government has always been primarily supported by the middle class. That will not change unless the way in which the government raises revenue changes. Obama has promised to tax the coal industry into oblivion. We have many coal power plants across the country. Each tax increase imposed by them will be passed on to the consumer. That is mostly the middle class. Other taxes he has in the works will likely include an increase on fuel taxes. When does it end? When will those of you who want to live off the government begin to understand that the government is us. The government has no business deciding how or where we get our healthcare. There are many other instances where the government has decided to interfere in private business and that has never worked out for the better.

I thought we were talking about health care. What do taxes on coal plants have to do with health care?

Healthcare is expensive. Nationalizing it is not the answer.

Every other industrialized nation has publicly funded health care. They all spend substantially less than we do. They all have measurably healthier populaces. It seems to me that what we are doing is not the answer. Unless you like spending more money for an inferior product.

Another government run agency is not the answer.

Every other industrialized nation has publicly funded health care. They all spend substantially less than we do. They all have measurably healthier populaces. It seems to me that what we are doing is not the answer. Unless you like spending more money for an inferior product.


If you want things to cost less then we can make changes to the industry that will actually work. We can take healthcare decisions out of the hands of the insurance industry and the government. Healthcare decisions should be made by the patient and their doctor. The more people who get involved in the decision process means that costs will increase.

That is exactly what a properly structured single payer system would do. It works in every other industrialized nation on the planet.

Tort reform is another way to reduce costs. Limiting how and when lawsuits can take place and the amount is one way to reduce costs.

I'm not opposed to intelligent tort reform. But I don't want doctors getting away with blatant negligence either.

Another is to keep the government out of the decision making process.

If you are really that unhappy with the processes of government, why don't you try to make government more effective? We desperately need an effective government for many purposes including managing the costs of our health care system.

One other thing that will reduce costs over night is to send all these illegals back to where they came. This one thing alone could reduce costs by many millions of dollars over night.

Blaming the Mexicans again. Will it be Blacks & Jews next?

Fixing the problem isn't complicated. All it takes is the will. When I was growing up most people went to their doctor and paid for their visit out of their own pocket. If they were given a prescription they went to the pharmacy, had it filled and paid for it out of their own pocket. You see, by having the government and insurance companies paying for doctor visits and prescriptions reduces competition and raises costs. If we all had to pay for our prescriptions we would see a dramatic decrease in prescription costs.

When you were growing up, health care was almost absurdly simple as compared to what it is today. There were no multi-million dollar diagnostic machines, no medicines that cost billions of dollars to develop. New diseases have developed and the incidence of others has increased dramatically because of the many changes in how we live. If you want to go back to a 1950's standard of care you could get 1950's costs. You would also get 1950's mortality rates.



xxxxx

[Dejanh]

I have known a couple of people who have been on the government program and have a neighbor who works for one of the insurance companies who administer the program in my state. The main thing they ration are prescriptions under their program. For the most part they do receive the medical care providing they have a doctor in the area who will accept the insurance. If not the patient could have to drive to another city to receive medical care. The patient has little to say about any doctor they may want to see. Many of those who accept medicaid are foreign nationals. Patients are also discharged prematurely from hospitals in some cases. They have really tightened up on some of their spending in recent years. Before you can go to a specialist you must have pre approval. If the doctor doesn't receive the approval prior to your appointment then you cannot see the doctor. It is a bureaucratic maze. At this time the main problem is with prescriptions, at least in my area. It seems to me as though they spend $10 to save $1.In that booklet i told you above there were names of many doctors and it was up to him to CHOOSE where to go, not the government agency. Right now everything that has to be done to a patient has to be aproved not by the government but by insurance companies.Single payer system would make sure that the procedure is covered instead of me having to call insurance companies and argue about why they didnt pay this and that, which i did many times.
Mike, my dad just recieved his notification on his next years insurance costs, they went up 15%. This is BCBS of NC. How can insurance go up during the biggest economic downturn since the great depression, when prices were suppose to be failing they are rising. It doesnt make any sense. How far will they go?
Peoples wages are being CUT, my dad's salary has been cut 10% while insurance went up? Who is protecting the people. He has to have a coverage, so he has to continue to pay regardless of his costs..


I don't blame the illegals for everything. They are a major contributing factor. Illegals or those who are here on work visa's don't pay taxes. I have customers who employ them. There is also a county about 30 miles from me that has a Hispanic population of more than 30%. To the west there is also a large Hispanic population. While it seems more of a problem for the border states there are pockets across the country where there are large groups of both legal and illegals. I believe those who come here legally don't have to pay taxes for a certain amount of time according to one shipper whom I know who mostly employs Mexicans. And much of their money is sent back to their homeland. They may pay sales tax on purchases but it is my understanding that they are not required to pay income or social security taxes as long as they don't exceed the time limit. And even though they don't contribute to social security they may still collect. They can also collect food stamps and other government assistance. We pay for all of that with higher taxes.Here is how I know alot about this issue. My wife is from Ecuador. She came here illegaly long time ago and has fixed her status way before she married me. She came on a visa and decided to stay. She worked in a grocery store for 7 years paying taxes but never doing them at the begining of a year. As a illegal you cannot collect ANYTHING from the government, first thing they ask for is your SS# which she didnt have. She tried to go to our local community college with no luck, they ask for papers there too. She has never recieved food staps, medicaid, nada, zilch, yet payed her taxes....
There is a big mis conception when it comes to this issue. People THINK that illegals collect yet do not pay, when its the other way around. And let me tell you this as well...WE AS A COUNTRY MAKE MUCH MORE BY HAVING MEXICANS AND ALL OTHERS HERE THEN WE WOULD IF WE DIDNT HAVE THEM HERE.
There is a really big shopping center here in Charlotte on Central Avenue which only houses buisinesses ran by them. THEY ARE PACKED. These buisinesess are vital to our economy as well as these people. I took my wife out just yesterday to a Chinese place close by. Guy in front of me was Spanish with his family of 5. His bill was over 120$ and he payed cash when everyone payed with the CC.....Out local Bi-Lo grocery store benefits much from illegals as they shop there all thr time and its also packed with them.......LightsChromePower raised an interesting point in his earlier post about other countries having illegals as well but have way better health care system then we do. England for one has alot of immigrants yet spend waaay less on their health care then we do. France also. Germany with Turks and all others....Illegals have been painted with an ugly picture which does not suit them. These companies that you deliver to that have these guys there working, do you think they would be there if they didnt have them, would your load paid what it did?





Legal immigrants have made great contributions to this nation. I don't have a problem with those who go through the legal process to get here. My problem is with those who come here illegally. Most of the Jews that Hitler killed were natives of Germany. He just needed someone to blame for the woes of Germany. Since many Jews were land owners and business owners they were a good target when the economy was in the toilet. The world was in a depression. He made it appear that the Jews were the cause. When you say something long enough and with conviction some people will eventually believe you.
Our government is not stupid Mike, they can close that border anytime they want and fix this problem once and for all, but they don't. Its called legal slavery. Give them work but no benefits. NO BENEFITS. They do not collect any foodstamps Mike even though you think they do and i get that, i told you. I know why you think that.




It was Canadians in Toronto who told me about not always being able to get needed surgeries. There have also been stories on the national media stating the same thing. The only time I have heard about Americans crossing the border into Canada or Mexico is to buy their prescriptions. They can save a lot of money by going to either country.

Have you ever asked yourself why are prescriptions cheaper in Canada, (which has the same or better living standard than we do) than here, yet their government is not bankrupt?



You are right about all the reckless spending. What we are spending on the wars is minimal as to what we spend on various social programs. Many Americans do expect a lot for nothing. There was a time when an American would rather starve than ask for a handout from the government or anyone else for that matter. Unfortunately, there are too many today who think that they deserve a paycheck or other services from the government. That attitude is killing this country. We will pay a very heavy price for allowing the government to take care of us. Its not minimal Mike, cost us over a trillion to have bases everywhere + around 700 billion for just a Pentagon budget which is overloaded with pork. And this is only what they tell us. Its better to invest that money here then in some thirld world bum **** country which will never have democracy. Nobody is asking for a handout, that is another miss conception, we would all pay, no free lunch.




I haven't heard anything about circumcision.YouTube - Rush Limbaugh Responds To Jay-Z Song "Off That" Jay-Z Disses Him & Bill O'Reilly (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUZeYy6wHNs&feature=related) , skip to 1:01...
Alot of people believe that...

I wasn't directing what I said at you. My taxes also went up this year. The more services we demand from the government the more taxes will need to be collected to pay for them. I prefer paying my own way with my own money. I can do a much better job of spending my money than any government entity. And one thing that I can guarantee is that I can get much more for my money that the government.

As I stated earlier, there are things which need to be addressed in our healthcare. Socialization is not the answer. I don't want the government that involved in my life. I have to deal with their nonsense enough as it is.
Taxes that i was referring to were last years and the year before that, not this year. You cannot afford to spend your money paying for yourown medical care. 4500$ for a 20min MRI....i dont think so.

[GMAN]

Originally Posted by GMAN http://www.classadrivers.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.classadrivers.com/forum/owner-operators-forums/38540-could-why-some-succeed-trucking-3.html#post460688)
We already have rationed healthcare in this country if you are on public healthcare.




We already have single payer if you are a member of Congress. Why shouldn't our elected officials get the same care as the rest of us? Maybe what we get isn't good enough for them?


They get better healthcare than most of us. They also make more money than most of us. The reason is that we don't hold them accountable. Congress is supposed to work for the people. At this point the people work for congress. They fleece us for enough they can pay for their own healthcare.


Government sponsored insurance already limits how may prescriptions they will pay for per month. That is not likely to change with the Obama healthcare system.



What "government sponsored insurance" are you referring to, what are the limits and how many people actually have an issue with them?



In my state there the state has taken over the federal medicaid program. It is called Tenncare. They limit name brand prescriptions to I believe 4 per month.


There are those who use the emergency room for their healthcare needs. Some are serious and others go there to be treated for a cold. I know since I have been in the emergency room on a number of occasions with my wife and experienced it first hand. Much of our current healthcare costs come from illegals going to our emergency rooms. I know this due to family members who work in healthcare. I have also seen this first hand as well as talking with healthcare workers while in the hospital with my wife. Illegals are on the verge of bankrupting many hospitals across this country. It should not be up to the U.S. government to provide healthcare to illegals. It is time for our politicians to find their backbone and do the right thing.




Now you are trying to blame it all on the Mexicans. It's really beneath me to answer this, but I'll point out that first, for the amount of money we spend relative to other nations we should be able to afford to treat every illegal immigrant with ease, second that other nations have equally large populations of illegal immigrants and manage to offer them better care than we do. Check this story out for a sense of just how ugly things have become; How L.A.'s massive free clinic event came together -- latimes.com (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-health-clinic16-2009aug16,0,3772428.story)



I would not want you to do anything that was beneath you. I suppose you haven't been keeping up on what is going on in California. Part of the reason they are going bankrupt is due to all the illegals living off the system.



I have spoken to a number of Canadians about their healthcare. With rare exceptions most think it is great unless you are chronically ill or need a major surgical procedure. You may get it or not. And you don't have to take my word for it. Many have been interviewed on TV over the years and there are thousands who come to this country for surgical procedures each year. There are numerous stories that have been reported on the news.




There are way more Americans traveling abroad for health care than there are Canadians coming here. "Medical Tourism" as it's called is expected to reach 40 billion dollars per year shortly. Do you think that is an indication that we have the world's best health care? When we have our citizens going to places like Mexico and Thailand for health care to the tune of 40 bil a year? Here's a link; http://www.patientsbeyondborders.com/media-room/faq.php (http://www.patientsbeyondborders.com/media-room/faq.php)

And for what it's worth, one of our drivers quit a couple of months ago. His wife is a Canadian citizen. Any guesses as to why they moved to BC?


The only ones that I have heard of going to Mexico or Thailand are doing so for their dentures or plastic surgery. There was a special on one of the news shows about it several months ago.

As far as taxes and the Obama spending binge are concerned. If you think that this administration or any other for that matter, can increase the size of government without raising taxes then you are very naive and don't understand how the world works. Any time you add a bureaucracy such as the healthcare plan to our government you WILL increase taxes. According to some figures that I have read the Obama stimulus plan brings all the taxes up to about 60% of what we earn. The healthcare proposal will only increase taxes further. Simple logistics will tell you that when you add 40 or 50 million people's healthcare costs to the public budget you will need to raise taxes to pay for it. This country is on the verge of bankruptcy as it is. I have NEVER known of any government proposal to meet or be less than what was proposed. It is usually several times the estimate. They use lower estimates so that the American people will buy their tax program.




What too many people don't seem to understand is that the amount we spend on health care is not going to increase if we change to a single payer system. Right now 30% of every dollar spent on health care goes into the pockets of the insurance industry. How could government be any less efficient than that? Any additional taxes you pay to fund health care will be offset by not having to buy insurance. In fact, there should be a net savings throughout the economy as a whole. Businesses will be more profitable because they will not have to provide health benefits to current or past employees. The only people who will lose are the insurance industry fat cats and the politicians that they contribute billions to. If you have a problem with that, it's your problem.


I can't believe that you actually believe that the government will take care of our healthcare for less than we can do it for ourselves. Having the government do this will create a huge bureaucracy that will need to be supported by tax dollars. That means that we will need to pay higher taxes. We are already paying about 60% of each dollar we earn to the government for various taxes to a government that can't even balance a budget. These people will pay $600 for a toilet seat yet you seem to think they can manage healthcare and save money? Businesses are not going to save any money. They will need to pay higher taxes in order to pay for the "FREE" healthcare. You better cut your drug usage. You are hallucinating.




Obama promised no new taxes for anyone making less than $250,000/year. No one with any common sense would have bought into that, but millions apparently did. This government has always been primarily supported by the middle class. That will not change unless the way in which the government raises revenue changes. Obama has promised to tax the coal industry into oblivion. We have many coal power plants across the country. Each tax increase imposed by them will be passed on to the consumer. That is mostly the middle class. Other taxes he has in the works will likely include an increase on fuel taxes. When does it end? When will those of you who want to live off the government begin to understand that the government is us. The government has no business deciding how or where we get our healthcare. There are many other instances where the government has decided to interfere in private business and that has never worked out for the better.




I thought we were talking about health care. What do taxes on coal plants have to do with health care?


It was a demonstration of what will happen with national healthcare. When the government throws on more taxes to business they pass that along to the consumer.



Healthcare is expensive. Nationalizing it is not the answer.




Every other industrialized nation has publicly funded health care. They all spend substantially less than we do. They all have measurably healthier populaces. It seems to me that what we are doing is not the answer. Unless you like spending more money for an inferior product.


Those who have government healthcare are trying to get away from it because it is driving them into bankruptcy.
Another government run agency is not the answer.




Every other industrialized nation has publicly funded health care. They all spend substantially less than we do. They all have measurably healthier populaces. It seems to me that what we are doing is not the answer. Unless you like spending more money for an inferior product.


I am not sure every industralized nation has publicly funded health care. It is easy to spend less when you ration the care participants receive. I would also challenge you on your statement. You would need to put everything side by side on the cost side and pay with the same dollars. You would also need to consider the cost of living in those countries.

If you want things to cost less then we can make changes to the industry that will actually work. We can take healthcare decisions out of the hands of the insurance industry and the government. Healthcare decisions should be made by the patient and their doctor. The more people who get involved in the decision process means that costs will increase.




That is exactly what a properly structured single payer system would do. It works in every other industrialized nation on the planet.
[quote="LightsChromeHorsepower"]

I am not sure it is working in every other industrialized nation. What proof do you have?


Tort reform is another way to reduce costs. Limiting how and when lawsuits can take place and the amount is one way to reduce costs.


[quote="LightsChromeHorsepower"]

I'm not opposed to intelligent tort reform. But I don't want doctors getting away with blatant negligence either.



I don't think negligence should be ignored, but many of the lawsuits that are filed are settled without even going to court. I think lawsuits are sometimes filed in expectation that the doctor or his insurance company will settle. Unfortunately, that is all too often the case with all insurance suits.



Another is to keep the government out of the decision making process.




If you are really that unhappy with the processes of government, why don't you try to make government more effective? We desperately need an effective government for many purposes including managing the costs of our health care system.


I am working on that. I agree that we need an effective government, but one that strictly adheres to our original constitution. At this point in our history our government is much too big and not responsive to those who support it.

One other thing that will reduce costs over night is to send all these illegals back to where they came. This one thing alone could reduce costs by many millions of dollars over night.




Blaming the Mexicans again. Will it be Blacks & Jews next?


I am not blaming the Mexicans. I said "ILLEGALS."


Fixing the problem isn't complicated. All it takes is the will. When I was growing up most people went to their doctor and paid for their visit out of their own pocket. If they were given a prescription they went to the pharmacy, had it filled and paid for it out of their own pocket. You see, by having the government and insurance companies paying for doctor visits and prescriptions reduces competition and raises costs. If we all had to pay for our prescriptions we would see a dramatic decrease in prescription costs.




When you were growing up, health care was almost absurdly simple as compared to what it is today. There were no multi-million dollar diagnostic machines, no medicines that cost billions of dollars to develop. New diseases have developed and the incidence of others has increased dramatically because of the many changes in how we live. If you want to go back to a 1950's standard of care you could get 1950's costs. You would also get 1950's mortality rates.


The polio vaccine was developed when I was growing up. I am sure it was quite expensive to develop. Much of the medical needs we have don't or should not involve million dollar diagnostic machines. Keep in mind that one reason some of these tests are performed is to protect the medical provider from litigation.

[GMAN]

In that booklet i told you above there were names of many doctors and it was up to him to CHOOSE where to go, not the government agency. Right now everything that has to be done to a patient has to be approved not by the government but by insurance companies.Single payer system would make sure that the procedure is covered instead of me having to call insurance companies and argue about why they didn't pay this and that, which i did many times.
Mike, my dad just received his notification on his next years insurance costs, they went up 15%. This is BCBS of NC. How can insurance go up during the biggest economic downturn since the great depression, when prices were suppose to be failing they are rising. It doesn't make any sense. How far will they go?
Peoples wages are being CUT, my dad's salary has been cut 10% while insurance went up? Who is protecting the people. He has to have a coverage, so he has to continue to pay regardless of his costs..


I don't think that it is right for these insurance companies to raise premiums when we are in a depression, either. I went through this myself with some of my insurance. They don't want their profits to diminish so they raise premiums. They should be lowering prices to become more competitive.




Here is how I know alot about this issue. My wife is from Ecuador. She came here illegally long time ago and has fixed her status way before she married me. She came on a visa and decided to stay. She worked in a grocery store for 7 years paying taxes but never doing them at the beginning of a year. As a illegal you cannot collect ANYTHING from the government, first thing they ask for is your SS# which she didn't have. She tried to go to our local community college with no luck, they ask for papers there too. She has never received food stamps, medicaid, nada, zilch, yet payed her taxes....
There is a big mis conception when it comes to this issue. People THINK that illegals collect yet do not pay, when its the other way around. And let me tell you this as well...WE AS A COUNTRY MAKE MUCH MORE BY HAVING MEXICANS AND ALL OTHERS HERE THEN WE WOULD IF WE DIDNT HAVE THEM HERE.
There is a really big shopping center here in Charlotte on Central Avenue which only houses businesses ran by them. THEY ARE PACKED. These businesses are vital to our economy as well as these people. I took my wife out just yesterday to a Chinese place close by. Guy in front of me was Spanish with his family of 5. His bill was over 120$ and he payed cash when everyone payed with the CC.....Out local Bi-Lo grocery store benefits much from illegals as they shop there all the time and its also packed with them.......LightsChromePower raised an interesting point in his earlier post about other countries having illegals as well but have way better health care system then we do. England for one has alot of immigrants yet spend waaay less on their health care then we do. France also. Germany with Turks and all others....Illegals have been painted with an ugly picture which does not suit them. These companies that you deliver to that have these guys there working, do you think they would be there if they didn't have them, would your load paid what it did?


Most of the Hispanics that I have seen are hard workers. There are some who do live off the system. I have seen some with food stamps and at the emergency room without the means to pay for their care. I remember reading some years ago that some countries actually require visitors or those moving to their country to have the means to pay for their healthcare.




Our government is not stupid Mike, they can close that border anytime they want and fix this problem once and for all, but they don't. Its called legal slavery. Give them work but no benefits. NO BENEFITS. They do not collect any foodstamps Mike even though you think they do and i get that, i told you. I know why you think that.


I agree that the government doesn't want to close the border. I would not call what these illegals are working for as slavery. You will find illegals working in a wide variety of jobs from farming to construction and manufacturing. And as stated above, some do collect food stamps. I don't think most do but there are those who do. As I said most of those whom I have met are working to provide for their families. Many of them send much of their paychecks back home. Some are marrying American women to tie themselves to the U.S.




Have you ever asked yourself why are prescriptions cheaper in Canada, (which has the same or better living standard than we do) than here, yet their government is not bankrupt?


I don't think that we should be paying more for prescriptions in the U.S. than they do in Canada or Mexico. We basically subsidize other countries prescriptions. Canada is having financial difficulties as is much of the rest of the world. Too much government spending is part of the reason.


Its not minimal Mike, cost us over a trillion to have bases everywhere + around 700 billion for just a Pentagon budget which is overloaded with pork. And this is only what they tell us. Its better to invest that money here then in some third world bum **** country which will never have democracy. Nobody is asking for a handout, that is another miss conception, we would all pay, no free lunch.


There is too much pork in most of our government. That is one reason to cut the size down to a manageable level. We spend more on social programs in this country than on our military. Government doesn't invest money. They just spend. Having the government take care of our every need is not a democracy. It is called socialism. It goes contrary to everything our country stands for. If you want the government to give you "FREE" healthcare then you are asking for a handout. We have gotten along just fine for more than 200 years without government healthcare. I don't think this country will exist 200 years from now if we continue on this path.



YouTube - Rush Limbaugh Responds To Jay-Z Song "Off That" Jay-Z Disses Him & Bill O'Reilly (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUZeYy6wHNs&feature=related) , skip to 1:01...
Alot of people believe that...


Taxes that i was referring to were last years and the year before that, not this year. You cannot afford to spend your money paying for your own medical care. 4500$ for a 20min MRI....i don't think so.

Healthcare costs have gotten out of control, at least in some instances. Getting the government more involved won't cut costs, they will only increase them based upon past performance.

[LightsChromeHorsepower]

GMAN-
“They get better healthcare than most of us. They also make more money than most of us. The reason is that we don't hold them accountable. Congress is supposed to work for the people. At this point the people work for congress. They fleece us for enough they can pay for their own healthcare.”

We elect them. If you want to hold them accountable quit voting for them.

GMAN-
“Government sponsored insurance already limits how may prescriptions they will pay for per month. That is not likely to change with the Obama healthcare system.”

Private insurance companies regularly refuse to pay for all kinds of treatments and therapies. Your point is?

GMAN-
“In my state there the state has taken over the federal medicaid program. It is called Tenncare. They limit name brand prescriptions to I believe 4 per month”

The same is true in all states. What is wrong with limiting prescriptions? Why shouldn't you use generics? My Kaiser coverage requires generics whenever possible. When I had surgery a couple of years ago Kaiser wouldn't cover the pain meds my doctor wanted to give me. I didn't find out until much later that there are a ton of other options I could have had that would have minimized my pain. I don't see how single-payer could have served me any more poorly.

GMAN-
“There are those who use the emergency room for their healthcare needs. Some are serious and others go there to be treated for a cold. I know since I have been in the emergency room on a number of occasions with my wife and experienced it first hand. Much of our current healthcare costs come from illegals going to our emergency rooms. I know this due to family members who work in healthcare. I have also seen this first hand as well as talking with healthcare workers while in the hospital with my wife. Illegals are on the verge of bankrupting many hospitals across this country. It should not be up to the U.S. government to provide healthcare to illegals. It is time for our politicians to find their backbone and do the right thing.”

We've already covered this. Please don't repeat yourself.

1.Illegals contribute far more than they consume by virtue of having taxes withheld from their incomes and then not being able to collect any refunds or benefits on what they have paid.

2.For what we spend on health care in this country, we should be able to offer stellar care to every person here, regardless of their immigration status.

3.All the European countries do the above, despite having much smaller populations over which to allocate the overall costs and risk. Why should they be that much better than us?

GMAN-
“I suppose you haven't been keeping up on what is going on in California. Part of the reason they are going bankrupt is due to all the illegals living off the system.”

I live in California. Our financial problems are far more complex in their origins than that. I will say that if all the illegals left California, the economy would stop and the entire nation would suffer an immediate food shortage.

GMAN-
“I have spoken to a number of Canadians about their healthcare. With rare exceptions most think it is great unless you are chronically ill or need a major surgical procedure. You may get it or not. And you don't have to take my word for it. Many have been interviewed on TV over the years and there are thousands who come to this country for surgical procedures each year. There are numerous stories that have been reported on the news.”

“The only ones that I have heard of going to Mexico or Thailand are doing so for their dentures or plastic surgery. There was a special on one of the news shows about it several months ago.”

U.S citizens are going overseas for health care to the tune of 40 BILLION dollars a year. That dwarfs any people from other countries who are coming here for the same reasons. You seem to keep harping on Canada. What about France, New Zealand or Switzerland for comparisons?

GMAN-
“As far as taxes and the Obama spending binge are concerned. If you think that this administration or any other for that matter, can increase the size of government without raising taxes then you are very naive and don't understand how the world works. Any time you add a bureaucracy such as the healthcare plan to our government you WILL increase taxes. According to some figures that I have read the Obama stimulus plan brings all the taxes up to about 60% of what we earn. The healthcare proposal will only increase taxes further. Simple logistics will tell you that when you add 40 or 50 million people's healthcare costs to the public budget you will need to raise taxes to pay for it. This country is on the verge of bankruptcy as it is. I have NEVER known of any government proposal to meet or be less than what was proposed. It is usually several times the estimate. They use lower estimates so that the American people will buy their tax program.”

We are talking about health care, not any economic stimulus plans here. Single payer health care, properly administered, would reduce overall health care costs in this country. It would do so by better allocating the risks involved and by taking away the obscene profits currently enjoyed by the insurance industry. Do you believe that we can continue to spend 16% of our GDP on health care and remain competitive in a global economy?

GMAN-
“It was a demonstration of what will happen with national healthcare. When the government throws on more taxes to business they pass that along to the consumer.”

You've been listening to too much talk radio.

GMAN-
“Healthcare is expensive. Nationalizing it is not the answer.”

“Those who have government healthcare are trying to get away from it because it is driving them into bankruptcy. Another government run agency is not the answer.”

“I am not sure every industralized nation has publicly funded health care. It is easy to spend less when you ration the care participants receive. I would also challenge you on your statement. You would need to put everything side by side on the cost side and pay with the same dollars. You would also need to consider the cost of living in those countries.”

“I am not sure it is working in every other industrialized nation. What proof do you have?”

1.Name a country with publicly funded health care that is trying to copy our system. None exists.

2.Health care is expensive. Nationalizing it is the only answer.

3.Name an industrialized nation that does not have publicly funded health care.

4.By any measurable standard we spend a far greater percentage of our GDP on health care than any other industrialized nation, and we get demonstrably inferior results. This seriously compromises our ability to compete in a global economy.

How much rhetorical mud do you have to throw before you notice it isn't sticking to the wall?

GMAN-
“One other thing that will reduce costs over night is to send all these illegals back to where they came. This one thing alone could reduce costs by many millions of dollars over night.”

Simple minds believe in simple solutions. If we sent all the illegal workers in this country home “overnight” our entire economy would freeze. I've answered this one above. We don't need to go through it again.


GMAN-
“Fixing the problem isn't complicated. All it takes is the will. When I was growing up most people went to their doctor and paid for their visit out of their own pocket. If they were given a prescription they went to the pharmacy, had it filled and paid for it out of their own pocket. You see, by having the government and insurance companies paying for doctor visits and prescriptions reduces competition and raises costs. If we all had to pay for our prescriptions we would see a dramatic decrease in prescription costs.”

“The polio vaccine was developed when I was growing up. I am sure it was quite expensive to develop. Much of the medical needs we have don't or should not involve million dollar diagnostic machines. Keep in mind that one reason some of these tests are performed is to protect the medical provider from litigation.”

When you were growing up, health care was almost absurdly simple as compared to what it is today. There were no multi-million dollar diagnostic machines, no medicines that cost billions of dollars to develop. New diseases have developed and the incidence of others has increased dramatically because of the many changes in how we live. If you want to go back to a 1950's standard of care you could get 1950's costs. You would also get 1950's mortality rates.

I'm sure that the Polio vaccine cost a small fraction of what todays complex, genetically engineered medicines cost. With the advent of nanotechnology it's only going to get worse. I also don't think that doctors prescribe super expensive treatments like chemo therapy to protect themselves from litigation. I think they do it because they want to save their patients lives.

[BanditsCousin]

My idea for a political forum was truly the worst post I ever made on CAD.

I'll admit it.

[LightsChromeHorsepower]

My idea for a political forum was truly the worst post I ever made on CAD.

I'll admit it.

Dude, this is fun.

[GMAN]

My idea for a political forum was truly the worst post I ever made on CAD.

I'll admit it.


Be careful for what you ask. :D

[GMAN]

GMAN-
“They get better healthcare than most of us. They also make more money than most of us. The reason is that we don't hold them accountable. Congress is supposed to work for the people. At this point the people work for congress. They fleece us for enough they can pay for their own healthcare.”

We elect them. If you want to hold them accountable quit voting for them.

GMAN-
“Government sponsored insurance already limits how may prescriptions they will pay for per month. That is not likely to change with the Obama healthcare system.”

Private insurance companies regularly refuse to pay for all kinds of treatments and therapies. Your point is?

GMAN-
“In my state there the state has taken over the federal medicaid program. It is called Tenncare. They limit name brand prescriptions to I believe 4 per month”

The same is true in all states. What is wrong with limiting prescriptions? Why shouldn't you use generics? My Kaiser coverage requires generics whenever possible. When I had surgery a couple of years ago Kaiser wouldn't cover the pain meds my doctor wanted to give me. I didn't find out until much later that there are a ton of other options I could have had that would have minimized my pain. I don't see how single-payer could have served me any more poorly.

GMAN-
“There are those who use the emergency room for their healthcare needs. Some are serious and others go there to be treated for a cold. I know since I have been in the emergency room on a number of occasions with my wife and experienced it first hand. Much of our current healthcare costs come from illegals going to our emergency rooms. I know this due to family members who work in healthcare. I have also seen this first hand as well as talking with healthcare workers while in the hospital with my wife. Illegals are on the verge of bankrupting many hospitals across this country. It should not be up to the U.S. government to provide healthcare to illegals. It is time for our politicians to find their backbone and do the right thing.”

We've already covered this. Please don't repeat yourself.

1.Illegals contribute far more than they consume by virtue of having taxes withheld from their incomes and then not being able to collect any refunds or benefits on what they have paid.

2.For what we spend on health care in this country, we should be able to offer stellar care to every person here, regardless of their immigration status.

3.All the European countries do the above, despite having much smaller populations over which to allocate the overall costs and risk. Why should they be that much better than us?

GMAN-
“I suppose you haven't been keeping up on what is going on in California. Part of the reason they are going bankrupt is due to all the illegals living off the system.”

I live in California. Our financial problems are far more complex in their origins than that. I will say that if all the illegals left California, the economy would stop and the entire nation would suffer an immediate food shortage.

GMAN-
“I have spoken to a number of Canadians about their healthcare. With rare exceptions most think it is great unless you are chronically ill or need a major surgical procedure. You may get it or not. And you don't have to take my word for it. Many have been interviewed on TV over the years and there are thousands who come to this country for surgical procedures each year. There are numerous stories that have been reported on the news.”

“The only ones that I have heard of going to Mexico or Thailand are doing so for their dentures or plastic surgery. There was a special on one of the news shows about it several months ago.”

U.S citizens are going overseas for health care to the tune of 40 BILLION dollars a year. That dwarfs any people from other countries who are coming here for the same reasons. You seem to keep harping on Canada. What about France, New Zealand or Switzerland for comparisons?

GMAN-
“As far as taxes and the Obama spending binge are concerned. If you think that this administration or any other for that matter, can increase the size of government without raising taxes then you are very naive and don't understand how the world works. Any time you add a bureaucracy such as the healthcare plan to our government you WILL increase taxes. According to some figures that I have read the Obama stimulus plan brings all the taxes up to about 60% of what we earn. The healthcare proposal will only increase taxes further. Simple logistics will tell you that when you add 40 or 50 million people's healthcare costs to the public budget you will need to raise taxes to pay for it. This country is on the verge of bankruptcy as it is. I have NEVER known of any government proposal to meet or be less than what was proposed. It is usually several times the estimate. They use lower estimates so that the American people will buy their tax program.”

We are talking about health care, not any economic stimulus plans here. Single payer health care, properly administered, would reduce overall health care costs in this country. It would do so by better allocating the risks involved and by taking away the obscene profits currently enjoyed by the insurance industry. Do you believe that we can continue to spend 16% of our GDP on health care and remain competitive in a global economy?

GMAN-
“It was a demonstration of what will happen with national healthcare. When the government throws on more taxes to business they pass that along to the consumer.”

You've been listening to too much talk radio.

GMAN-
“Healthcare is expensive. Nationalizing it is not the answer.”

“Those who have government healthcare are trying to get away from it because it is driving them into bankruptcy. Another government run agency is not the answer.”

“I am not sure every industrialized nation has publicly funded health care. It is easy to spend less when you ration the care participants receive. I would also challenge you on your statement. You would need to put everything side by side on the cost side and pay with the same dollars. You would also need to consider the cost of living in those countries.”

“I am not sure it is working in every other industrialized nation. What proof do you have?”

1.Name a country with publicly funded health care that is trying to copy our system. None exists.

2.Health care is expensive. Nationalizing it is the only answer.

3.Name an industrialized nation that does not have publicly funded health care.

4.By any measurable standard we spend a far greater percentage of our GDP on health care than any other industrialized nation, and we get demonstrably inferior results. This seriously compromises our ability to compete in a global economy.

How much rhetorical mud do you have to throw before you notice it isn't sticking to the wall?

GMAN-
“One other thing that will reduce costs over night is to send all these illegals back to where they came. This one thing alone could reduce costs by many millions of dollars over night.”

Simple minds believe in simple solutions. If we sent all the illegal workers in this country home “overnight” our entire economy would freeze. I've answered this one above. We don't need to go through it again.


GMAN-
“Fixing the problem isn't complicated. All it takes is the will. When I was growing up most people went to their doctor and paid for their visit out of their own pocket. If they were given a prescription they went to the pharmacy, had it filled and paid for it out of their own pocket. You see, by having the government and insurance companies paying for doctor visits and prescriptions reduces competition and raises costs. If we all had to pay for our prescriptions we would see a dramatic decrease in prescription costs.”

“The polio vaccine was developed when I was growing up. I am sure it was quite expensive to develop. Much of the medical needs we have don't or should not involve million dollar diagnostic machines. Keep in mind that one reason some of these tests are performed is to protect the medical provider from litigation.”

When you were growing up, health care was almost absurdly simple as compared to what it is today. There were no multi-million dollar diagnostic machines, no medicines that cost billions of dollars to develop. New diseases have developed and the incidence of others has increased dramatically because of the many changes in how we live. If you want to go back to a 1950's standard of care you could get 1950's costs. You would also get 1950's mortality rates.

I'm sure that the Polio vaccine cost a small fraction of what todays complex, genetically engineered medicines cost. With the advent of nanotechnology it's only going to get worse. I also don't think that doctors prescribe super expensive treatments like chemo therapy to protect themselves from litigation. I think they do it because they want to save their patients lives.


Where to start?!! I don't vote for these mental amoeba's. All these politicians seem to want to do is line their pockets at the expense of the rest of us. They also don't seem to understand how to read the constitution.

I understand that insurance companies also limit procedures as does the government. Some drugs are only available in name brand but most of these government programs do limit the number of prescriptions whether they are generic or name brand. In your scenario you would exchange obscene insurance profits with obscene government taxes?

You quote some figures about GNP and healthcare in other countries. I don't see any proof. I talk about Canada since that is the only country where I have actually visited and spoken with the those who must deal with the healthcare system. And I don't recall having spoken to anyone who has gone abroad to receive healthcare other than dental work in Mexico at some of the border towns.

Don't minimize the cost or effects of polio on our population in years past. It usually hit children and either killed or crippled them. It was as bad as anything we have today. And if you factor in inflation I dare say that you would have spent as much as any other research or development for an effective vaccine. By the way, Franklin D. Roosevelt was struck by polio and was in a wheel chair during his presidency.

Most problems are simple. It is people who try to make them complex. It evidently makes them feel better to complicate problems. This country got along very well for more than 200 years without government heathcare and over 150 years without welfare. The result is a generation who expects the government to take care of their every need. The net result is several generations of non productive individuals who live for their government paycheck in their government subsidized housing. There is no need to work since the government will pay them to sit at home.

There were advantages to 1950's healthcare. For the most part people were pretty healthy. You didn't see the obesity we currently see in our country. It seems that the more complex people want to make healthcare the higher the costs. It doesn't have to be that way. The real cost issues have not been addressed. Government and litigation are the two major contributors to high costs of medical care. I noticed you prefer skipping over those issues.

I know very well some of the issues in California. I lived there during the Reagan administration. The state has steadily gone downhill since that time. California is a model of how NOT to run a government. They keep making the same mistakes over and over. Arnold Schwarzenegger was the one who mentioned the costs of having illegals in the state and the cost of them using emergency rooms, etc., at state expense. In case you missed it, he is the governor of California. California keeps putting more and more taxes and spending more and more money on things that they have no business doing and they wonder why they are in trouble. That is what happens when you buy votes. At some point you run out of money. It is what happens when you have more people living off the government than working to support the government. About the only difference in what is happening in California and the federal government is that the feds have printing presses to print more money. In case you went to public schools you may have missed some of the events that have happened in the world. Socialism doesn't work. It has failed in EVERY country in which it has been tried. Those who have tried it have their own version which they try to convince themselves that their system will work. IT HASN'T. Socialism has an inherent flaw. It takes the incentive to produce out of the picture. This country was built on self determination an freedom. Whether it is socialized banking, cars or healthcare, it will not work. I remember seeing some of the cars made in the old USSR and some of the other communist countries. Some people like to call them socialist countries. Poor quality and all black. Healthcare will be the same. Poor quality high cost to the taxpayers. Of course, those who are living off the current system won't need to pay anything since those of us who do work will be supporting those who don't. By the way, I also remember seeing breadlines and limited store items under socialism in some of these countries you tout with such great healthcare. This will not stop at healthcare. We can expect to have people who have no experience in healthcare or business to run these new bureaucracies.

[Ridge Runner]

I LOVE IT !!!!! You can't get this on FOX or MSNBC. Real, honest people that have different perspectives on an issue. Both pushing their view in a well thought out way. I have learned soooooo....much from BOTH sides. Gives me food for thought. And you didn't have to attack each other to do so. Please continue. :clap:


Ridge

[BanditsCousin]

This is a pretty civil discussion, and although I may not have much to add, it is interesting to see peoples' different points of view expressed rationally.

[LightsChromeHorsepower]

Where to start?!! I don't vote for these mental amoeba's. All these politicians seem to want to do is line their pockets at the expense of the rest of us. They also don't seem to understand how to read the constitution.

You strict (I can't remember the name for people who want to follow what they claim were the original intentions of our founding fathers) never fail to amaze & amuse me. When the Constitution was written, slavery was legal, women couldn't vote and our society and culture bore virtually no resemblance to what we have today. I frequently think that what you guys really want is a return to simpler times when you white males could keep women and people of color in their place. It isn't going to happen. What will happen is that we will fail as a nation and a society if we fail to recognize the changes that have been thrust upon us and modify our behaviors, customs and institutions to reflect those changes.

I understand that insurance companies also limit procedures as does the government. Some drugs are only available in name brand but most of these government programs do limit the number of prescriptions whether they are generic or name brand. In your scenario you would exchange obscene insurance profits with obscene government taxes?

1. What programs limit which prescriptions? I have been rumbling around the 3 proposals (Obama's + the House & Senate versions) and I don't see this. Show it to me or I call BS on you.

2. The health insurance industry has seen it's premiums go from 1.5% of GDP in 1970 to 5.5% in 2007. They are currently so concerned about there future profits that they are spending 1.4 Million dollars per day lobbying congress. That's obscene, so obscene that I truly believe that the government could actually do better.

If we simply got rid of the insurance industry's profits, we could provide health care to every uninsured person in the country. Which would serve to lower our overall cost of health care because the uninsured would be getting prompter treatment from appropriate sources, not waiting until they were so sick they had to go to the emergency room.

It's worth noting that a healthier populace is a more productive one. I believe that a healthy citizenry is so important to the productivity of our nation that ensuring it should be considered a part of our infrastructure, just like roads, bridges and a postal system.

You quote some figures about GNP and healthcare in other countries. I don't see any proof. I talk about Canada since that is the only country where I have actually visited and spoken with the those who must deal with the healthcare system. And I don't recall having spoken to anyone who has gone abroad to receive healthcare other than dental work in Mexico at some of the border towns.

That you don't know these numbers is amazing to me. They have been quoted in more newspaper and magazine articles than I can remember. Do you read at all? I don't see how you can pretend to participate in this debate if you lack such basic knowledge of the issue.

Here's a link to the Wikipedia entry for universal health care; Universal health care - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_health_care). It will explain the basics to you and states very clearly that THE U.S. IS THE ONLY INDUSTRIALIZED NATION WITHOUT UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE. It also notes that many developing nations offer universal care as well.

If you just Google "medical tourism" you will find a large amount of information on that issue. It's estimated that 1.5 million Americans traveled abroad last year for medical procedures.


Don't minimize the cost or effects of polio on our population in years past. It usually hit children and either killed or crippled them. It was as bad as anything we have today. And if you factor in inflation I dare say that you would have spent as much as any other research or development for an effective vaccine. By the way, Franklin D. Roosevelt was struck by polio and was in a wheel chair during his presidency.

I went to school, grades K-12, with a girl who suffered from the effects of Polio.
I submit, that by any measure, the cost of developing a Polio vaccine was a fraction of what has been spent on AIDS research (which has yet to yield a vaccine). And many cancer drugs have huge costs as well. Her's an interesting article in that vein; Why are the new cancer drugs so expensive? - By Robert Bazell - Slate Magazine (http://www.slate.com/id/2102844/)


Most problems are simple. It is people who try to make them complex. It evidently makes them feel better to complicate problems. This country got along very well for more than 200 years without government heathcare and over 150 years without welfare. The result is a generation who expects the government to take care of their every need. The net result is several generations of non productive individuals who live for their government paycheck in their government subsidized housing. There is no need to work since the government will pay them to sit at home.

Everything about our lives is vastly more complex than it was even 25 years ago. I'm not sure I like it either, but I realize that I can't stop it, and that our culture, government and institutions must change with the times or we are certain to perish as a nation and a society.

There were advantages to 1950's healthcare. For the most part people were pretty healthy. You didn't see the obesity we currently see in our country. It seems that the more complex people want to make healthcare the higher the costs. It doesn't have to be that way. The real cost issues have not been addressed. Government and litigation are the two major contributors to high costs of medical care. I noticed you prefer skipping over those issues.

1. Medical malpractice premiums account for less than 1/2 of 1% of the total health care costs in the U.S. Obviously, that's not the problem.

2. You are blaming the government for the current high cost of health care. We currently have a virtually unregulated market for health care in this country. How can the government be at fault?

Health care has become more complex because everything else in our society has become more complex. You seem to be advocating a return to 1950's medicine. We could do that. Lot's of people would die because we would not be able to offer them any of the recently developed, complex & expensive therapies that we now have available. This seems to be in direct conflict with your fear that these very same therapies might be in some way "rationed" if we had universal care. What are you really afraid of? Change?

I know very well some of the issues in California. I lived there during the Reagan administration. The state has steadily gone downhill since that time.

I will stipulate that Reagan started the slide, although I believe Howard Jarvis should get at least as much credit.

California is a model of how NOT to run a government. They keep making the same mistakes over and over.

I couldn't agree more.

Arnold Schwarzenegger was the one who mentioned the costs of having illegals in the state and the cost of them using emergency rooms, etc., at state expense. In case you missed it, he is the governor of California. California keeps putting more and more taxes and spending more and more money on things that they have no business doing and they wonder why they are in trouble. That is what happens when you buy votes. At some point you run out of money. It is what happens when you have more people living off the government than working to support the government. About the only difference in what is happening in California and the federal government is that the feds have printing presses to print more money. In case you went to public schools you may have missed some of the events that have happened in the world.

I can't quite figure out what you are getting at here. One of California's greatest problems is the inability of the state to raise taxes because doing so requires a 2/3 majority in the legislature. Your thoughts here seem really simplistic, I believe the problems are bit more complex than you realize. What events do you think I missed out on?



Socialism doesn't work. It has failed in EVERY country in which it has been tried. Those who have tried it have their own version which they try to convince themselves that their system will work. IT HASN'T.

Can you name some examples please?

Socialism has an inherent flaw. It takes the incentive to produce out of the picture. This country was built on self determination an freedom. Whether it is socialized banking, cars or healthcare, it will not work. I remember seeing some of the cars made in the old USSR and some of the other communist countries. Some people like to call them socialist countries.

But they weren't really, right? Can you explain the difference between communism and socialism?

Poor quality and all black. Healthcare will be the same. Poor quality high cost to the taxpayers. Of course, those who are living off the current system won't need to pay anything since those of us who do work will be supporting those who don't. By the way, I also remember seeing breadlines and limited store items under socialism in some of these countries you tout with such great healthcare. This will not stop at healthcare. We can expect to have people who have no experience in healthcare or business to run these new bureaucracies.

What you seem to be referring to as "socialized" medicine works in every other industrialized nation on the planet (and in many developing ones as well) By any rational measure it works better. All of these nations spend a substantially lower percentage of their GDP on health care and have healthier populaces.
If we continue to spend more on health care (and prisons, and the war on drugs, and our military) than the nations we are competing against in the global economy we will have less money to invest in things that will help us compete, like education, transportation infrastructure, basic scientific research etc. If we fail to adequately fund these things now it will result in a much lower standard of living for most of us in the future. We must change or fall behind. I want to change. Do you want to fall back into your 1950's comfort zone?

xxxxx

[GMAN]

I don't recall anything in the constitution about enslaving people. I have never believed that any people should be enslaved. Keep in mind that most people in this country never owned slaves. Also keep in mind that it was their fellow countrymen who captured and sold them into slavery. By the way, that is still occurring in some areas of Africa.

I am not so sure that giving women the right to vote was in the best interest of our nation. Some women are more apt to vote based upon a candidates looks than real issues. I have had numerous women tell me over the years that they voted for a candidate because they looked good. That isn't a good reason to vote for a candidate. Perhaps we should go back to the way it was when I grew up. In order to be able to vote you had to take your tax or property receipt with you. You could only vote if you were a property owner. We seemed to have a more responsible electorate back then. It makes a difference when you are the one paying the bills.

1. The current system limits the number of prescriptions one individual can receive. I don't see that changing with a new system.

2. You throw a lot of percentages and figures around but fail to give your source. Your answer is to get rid of profit in favor or higher taxes? There is no competition with taxes. If the government wants to raise taxes all they need do is pass a bill. It is a little different in the private sector where you have competition for your dollars.

You continue to compare this country with others. This country is unique in history. It was an experiment that was extremely successful. Our forefathers built the most successful economic powerhouse in the world out of the wilderness. One reason these other countries have fallen behind in many areas is due to socialism. BIG GOVERNMENT DOESN'T WORK! For a country or society to be successful they must be productive. The bigger government becomes the less productive a society. If you had any sense of history you would already know this. History does repeat itself. What we are seeing now has been tried before and failed.

Unlike Polio, aids was initially spread by behavior. About the only way you can get aids was to exchange body fluids or in an infected IV. Two entirely different diseases. Getting polio had nothing to do with behavior. Cancer drugs and other types of drugs are expensive due to the cost of development and greed. Just because the government pays the bill doesn't mean the cost will necessarily be less. In reality we may actually see less new drugs and innovations.

I don't know where your head is if you think healthcare isn't regulated. It is one of the most regulated industries in this country. If it isn't done just right the provider winds up in court. Again, you list figures for the cost of malpractice insurance. What is your source? Much of the cost has to do with providing a paper trail for the government and lawyers to protect themselves from litigation.

I lived in California during the Reagan administration. The standard and quality of living was pretty good. It was just after his administration when they dramatically started raising property taxes that things went awry.




I can't quite figure out what you are getting at here. One of California's greatest problems is the inability of the state to raise taxes because doing so requires a 2/3 majority in the legislature. Your thoughts here seem really simplistic, I believe the problems are bit more complex than you realize. What events do you think I missed out on?



California's problem isn't that they cannot raise taxes. It is that they spend too much money. They don't know how to balance their budget. You don't spend money you don't have. Until the politicians and people of California realize that things won't change.



Socialism doesn't work. It has failed in EVERY country in which it has been tried. Those who have tried it have their own version which they try to convince themselves that their system will work. IT HASN'T.


Can you name some examples please?



East Germany, USSR, North Korea, Cuba, China, France, etc.,


Socialism has an inherent flaw. It takes the incentive to produce out of the picture. This country was built on self determination an freedom. Whether it is socialized banking, cars or healthcare, it will not work. I remember seeing some of the cars made in the old USSR and some of the other communist countries. Some people like to call them socialist countries.




But they weren't really, right? Can you explain the difference between communism and socialism?


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NOUN:

Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved.

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NOUN:


A theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members.
Communism
A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people.
The Marxist-Leninist version of Communist doctrine that advocates the overthrow of capitalism by the revolution of the proletariat.




Poor quality and all black. Healthcare will be the same. Poor quality high cost to the taxpayers. Of course, those who are living off the current system won't need to pay anything since those of us who do work will be supporting those who don't. By the way, I also remember seeing breadlines and limited store items under socialism in some of these countries you tout with such great healthcare. This will not stop at healthcare. We can expect to have people who have no experience in healthcare or business to run these new bureaucracies.



What you seem to be referring to as "socialized" medicine works in every other industrialized nation on the planet (and in many developing ones as well) By any rational measure it works better. All of these nations spend a substantially lower percentage of their GDP on health care and have healthier populaces.
If we continue to spend more on health care (and prisons, and the war on drugs, and our military) than the nations we are competing against in the global economy we will have less money to invest in things that will help us compete, like education, transportation infrastructure, basic scientific research etc. If we fail to adequately fund these things now it will result in a much lower standard of living for most of us in the future. We must change or fall behind. I want to change. Do you want to fall back into your 1950's comfort zone? xxxxx




We will continue to spend more money on healthcare as long as we demand more from our healthcare providers. It will cost more whether it comes from the private sector or the government. The main difference is that it will cost more when it comes from the government. We would do much better if we started using natural remedies for many of our health issues. But it won't be as profitable for the government or private sector. Throwing money at things such as education hasn't worked. When the government changes history and fails to teach the basics you have an uneducated populace. We need to get the government out of our education if we expect to compete in the global market. As far as expenditures on the things you listed, it is relative to the individual countries GNP and goals. There is no war on drugs in this country. There is too much profit and it is such a good political football that neither side is willing to do what is necessary. As long as there is demand there will be drugs. Closing the southern border would help reduce supplies but you will NEVER stop drug use until you change people's attitudes. And as we have already witnessed, change for the sake of change isn't good.

[LightsChromeHorsepower]

GMAN-
I don't recall anything in the constitution about enslaving people. I have never believed that any people should be enslaved. Keep in mind that most people in this country never owned slaves. Also keep in mind that it was their fellow countrymen who captured and sold them into slavery. By the way, that is still occurring in some areas of Africa.

I said that slavery was legal when the constitution was written, not that the constitution specifically allowed it. In fact, many of our founding fathers were slave owners and many who did not actually own slaves benefited from the practice.

GMAN-
I am not so sure that giving women the right to vote was in the best interest of our nation. Some women are more apt to vote based upon a candidates looks than real issues. I have had numerous women tell me over the years that they voted for a candidate because they looked good. That isn't a good reason to vote for a candidate. Perhaps we should go back to the way it was when I grew up. In order to be able to vote you had to take your tax or property receipt with you. You could only vote if you were a property owner. We seemed to have a more responsible electorate back then. It makes a difference when you are the one paying the bills.

Wow. So now we are starting to see how you really feel about things. This is so far out in la-la land that I really can't bring myself to start in on it. Anybody out there want to help? Dobry, are you there? Just for starters, I wonder how many men voted for Palin because they thought she had a nice butt.


GMAN-
1. The current system limits the number of prescriptions one individual can receive. I don't see that changing with a new system.

How does it do that? What is the current system? You accuse me failing to provide sources. I want to see your source on this.


GMAN-
2. You throw a lot of percentages and figures around but fail to give your source. Your answer is to get rid of profit in favor or higher taxes? There is no competition with taxes. If the government wants to raise taxes all they need do is pass a bill. It is a little different in the private sector where you have competition for your dollars.

I can provide a citation for any number I use anywhere in anything I write. I do the same for any factual statement I make as well. That's the big difference between what I write and what you do. I use facts and numbers. You use nothing but opinions gleaned from what ever lunatic right wing radio program you have listened to on a given day.

There can be plenty of competition with taxes. Don't road construction projects get multiple bids? Postal Service trucking contracts have gotten hugely competitive. I don't think it's right for any corporation or industry to reap huge profits at the expense of the health of the populace..

GMAN-
You continue to compare this country with others. This country is unique in history. It was an experiment that was extremely successful. Our forefathers built the most successful economic powerhouse in the world out of the wilderness. One reason these other countries have fallen behind in many areas is due to socialism. BIG GOVERNMENT DOESN'T WORK! For a country or society to be successful they must be productive. The bigger government becomes the less productive a society. If you had any sense of history you would already know this. History does repeat itself. What we are seeing now has been tried before and failed.

I hate to break the news to you, but we are the country that is falling behind. That's exactly why we need change. What is wrong with comparing this country to others? When you say we are “unique in history” aren't you comparing us as well? History does repeat itself. All empires eventually fail. Ours is in danger of failing now if we don't make some substantive changes.

GMAN-
Unlike Polio, aids was initially spread by behavior. About the only way you can get aids was to exchange body fluids or in an infected IV. Two entirely different diseases. Getting polio had nothing to do with behavior. Cancer drugs and other types of drugs are expensive due to the cost of development and greed. Just because the government pays the bill doesn't mean the cost will necessarily be less. In reality we may actually see less new drugs and innovations.

1.AIDS was initially spread into the human population by someone eating meat from an infected animal. It can spread almost as fact through unprotected heterosexual intercourse as through sex between two men. Contaminated needles don't distinguish who they infect.

2.We are talking about the cost of developing a drug. I wasn't aware that we were limiting the discussion to the cost of drugs used to combat diseases that you approve of. I'll wager that Viagra and Prozac both cost more to develop than the Polio vaccine.

GMAN-
I don't know where your head is if you think healthcare isn't regulated. It is one of the most regulated industries in this country. If it isn't done just right the provider winds up in court. Again, you list figures for the cost of malpractice insurance. What is your source? Much of the cost has to do with providing a paper trail for the government and lawyers to protect themselves from litigation.

How is it regulated? Provide an example of a regulation that limits what a provider can charge or mandates a specific treatment for a certain condition.

You can find information on the cost of malpractice insurance easily, from a number of sources on the web. Here's one link; New Study Finds Medical Malpractice Insurance Premiums have Minimal Effect on Health Care Costs NCL’s Savvy Consumer Blog (http://savvyconsumer.wordpress.com/2009/08/13/new-study-finds-medical-malpractice-insurance-premiums-have-minimal-effect-on-health-care-costs/)

GMAN-
I lived in California during the Reagan administration. The standard and quality of living was pretty good. It was just after his administration when they dramatically started raising property taxes that things went awry.

It was Reagan who started the tax cutting frenzy. When he closed the local state-run mental hospital, all those people went out on the street and became a huge burden for local law enforcement and the county health care system.

And to show how little you actually know about this subject, consider this; Property taxes were not raised after his administration, they were dramatically lowered with the passing of Proposition 13. Proposition 13 has completely distorted tax revenue generation for the entire state. The other big problem is that politicians, some would argue beginning with Reagan, have discovered a sure-fire way to get elected and become wealthy; Promise to cut peoples taxes (They fall for it every time) so you can get in office and start to receive the beneficence of all the corporate lobbyists. That's when you make your connections so that when you leave office you can go to work in one of the industries that your former committee was in charge of regulating, or become a lobbyist (or consultant) yourself. It worked great for Dick Cheney

GMAN-
Socialism doesn't work. It has failed in EVERY country in which it has been tried. Those who have tried it have their own version which they try to convince themselves that their system will work. IT HASN'T.

Can you name some examples please?

GMAN-
East Germany, USSR, North Korea, Cuba, China, France, etc.,

So you name four communist countries, France (Which is not socialist, but is considered by numerous surveys to have the best health care in the world, which is what I think we were supposed to be talking about here) and etc. Where is etc.? I can't find it on any maps. We know you have 5 out of 6 wrong. I would like to find etc. so we can make it 6 out of 6.

And you have now proved that you can cut and paste a bunch of links. I want to know if you can, in your own words, describe the difference between communism and socialism. You should be able to do it in two sentences, max. And no fair calling Rush for help!

GMAN-
We will continue to spend more money on healthcare as long as we demand more from our healthcare providers. It will cost more whether it comes from the private sector or the government.

This is pretty much a point I have been trying to make to you all along. Health care is expensive because it has become very complex. It has become complex because everything else has gotten very complicated too. We cannot rely on simple measures to solve complex issues.

GMAN-
The main difference is that it will cost more when it comes from the government.

The data from the rest of the world indicates that this is not true.

GMAN-
We would do much better if we started using natural remedies for many of our health issues. But it won't be as profitable for the government or private sector.

This doesn't make sense. Are you saying that BOTH government and the private sector are generating unusual profits under our current system? If so, then you are arguing against your own position here. I submit that those are indicators that we need reform.

GMAN-
Throwing money at things such as education hasn't worked. When the government changes history and fails to teach the basics you have an uneducated populace. We need to get the government out of our education if we expect to compete in the global market.

Government sponsored education is a large part of what drove us to the top of the economic pile. If we get government out of education and turn it over to the private sector, it too will become driven by profit, not quality. When I think of this I see Halliburton signs on schools.

GMAN-
As far as expenditures on the things you listed, it is relative to the individual countries GNP and goals

The reason you use % of GDP is that it gives you an accurate snapshot of the relative expenditures of each nation. It's macro economics 101. We are spending way too much on health care, prisons & the military. If we allow it to continue we will fail as an empire.

GMAN-
There is no war on drugs in this country. There is too much profit and it is such a good political football that neither side is willing to do what is necessary.

I didn't make up the term, Richard Nixon did. It's been used by so many people that it is now part of the general lexicon (although I think Obama said his administration would not use the term, he has continued the policies).

GMAN-
As long as there is demand there will be drugs. Closing the southern border would help reduce supplies but you will NEVER stop drug use until you change people's attitudes.

If what you are trying to say is that you can't legislate morality, I agree

GMAN-
And as we have already witnessed, change for the sake of change isn't good.

And failing to change when it is necessary will leave us on the trash heap of history with the Roman Empire, the Ottomans and every other once great nation that was too proud or self-indulged to make the sacrifices required to survive.

[Dejanh]

I don't think that it is right for these insurance companies to raise premiums when we are in a depression, either. I went through this myself with some of my insurance. They don't want their profits to diminish so they raise premiums. They should be lowering prices to become more competitive.
Reason why they are going up its because they want more money. I would rather pay taxes and lower our healthcare costs, than pay premiums and raise someones multimillion dollar bonus. They will never lower prices as long as they are all in the bed with each other and all of these politicians who never lived under the laws that they pass, or have forgotten how it is to live under them..





Most of the Hispanics that I have seen are hard workers. There are some who do live off the system. I have seen some with food stamps and at the emergency room without the means to pay for their care. I remember reading some years ago that some countries actually require visitors or those moving to their country to have the means to pay for their healthcare.
Mike, i know more Americans that are living off of our system than i do Hispanics.

NO ONE CAN LIVE OFF OF THE SYSTEM IF THEY ARE HERE ILLEGALY. I dont care what someone told you, it is not true that illegals are gaming our government, ITS THE OTHER WAY AROUND !!!

We pay many taxes in this country and if we only used that money wisely we could probably pay health care costs for the entire American continent, not only this country.




I agree that the government doesn't want to close the border. I would not call what these illegals are working for as slavery. You will find illegals working in a wide variety of jobs from farming to construction and manufacturing. And as stated above, some do collect food stamps. I don't think most do but there are those who do. As I said most of those whom I have met are working to provide for their families. Many of them send much of their paychecks back home. Some are marrying American women to tie themselves to the U.S. It is a slavery but in a legal kind of way. These people pay taxes Mike, (there are those who do not just like regular Americans but vast majority does). They pay taxes but get nothing in return. Whoever told you that illegals get food stamps is lying. I had my wife read some of these posts here and she is laughing at the amount of miss conception that is out there, no wonder why people hate immigrants.
This country was built on the backs of immigrants, legal and illegal.....And this country gets most of its benefits from those who are here illegaly than from those who are not, as those who are, do not have to be cared for..Healthcare is the same way.





I don't think that we should be paying more for prescriptions in the U.S. than they do in Canada or Mexico. We basically subsidize other countries prescriptions. Canada is having financial difficulties as is much of the rest of the world. Too much government spending is part of the reason. Prescriptions are just one example of us overpaying for something that we should not. Everything else related to health care in this country is the same way. You can never know how much you are being played until you go outside of the box and look at the things from a different point of view. I told you this before.

Canada is one of the richest nations in thw worls with population of just little over 33 million. Most of that country is still unexplored. It is very rich with minerals and oil. Most of my work in this past week has been there, picking up in Nephton,ON mines and delivering down south. They are not in debt and can never be in financial difficulties in the long run. We are there in the short and long run. We can only wish we were Canada.

Oh BTW, If you're going on 401 you'll see them REMODELING their plazas/rest areas, not closing them down.



There is too much pork in most of our government. That is one reason to cut the size down to a manageable level. We spend more on social programs in this country than on our military. Government doesn't invest money. They just spend. Having the government take care of our every need is not a democracy. It is called socialism. It goes contrary to everything our country stands for. If you want the government to give you "FREE" healthcare then you are asking for a handout. We have gotten along just fine for more than 200 years without government healthcare. I don't think this country will exist 200 years from now if we continue on this path.
Trust me, our government is not taking care of our every need. This country is the only one out there, together with probably Somalia that does not have any kind of a social safety net in the case that people loose their jobs or get sick. No one will help you. That ,,free health care'' has been thrown around by those who do not want to change our ways. IT IS NOT FREE, WE WOULD PAY FOR IT !!!!!
It has gotten ,,just fine'' for 200 years but look at where we are today because of it?

Rest of the world is catching up and catching up fast. In 20 years China will reach our level of sophistication which took us 200 years to reach. WE MUST CHANGE or be left to rot.....
I dont want us to rot, i want us to succed and be that beacon of freedom that made this country what IT WAS.....once am sad to say.




Healthcare costs have gotten out of control, at least in some instances. Getting the government more involved won't cut costs, they will only increase them based upon past performance.Healthcare costs have gotten out of control in every instance, every aspect of this buisiness has gotten more expensive...

No one can stand up against a trillion dollar machine if we(the government) do not, its simple like that.
We ,,can'' or we ,,wont'' do it, there is no ,,we cannot''....WE CAN DO ANYTHING WE WANT, WE PUT A MAN ON THE MOON..but only if we put our mind to it.

[GMAN]

Reason why they are going up its because they want more money. I would rather pay taxes and lower our healthcare costs, than pay premiums and raise someones multimillion dollar bonus. They will never lower prices as long as they are all in the bed with each other and all of these politicians who never lived under the laws that they pass, or have forgotten how it is to live under them..


I think that paying 60% of my income to taxes is more than sufficient to pay for anything this government should need. I am not willing to pay more for less. If I want insurance then I can go out and buy it or pay for my own healthcare. I see no good reason why I should turn my decision making over to a centralized government. It costs money to administer a government program. I think history has proven that it takes more people for the government to administer a program than can be done by the private sector. I agree that insurance costs are too high, but so is most everything else. If this healthcare program is passed you can rest assured that congress will be exempt. That is what they did with social security. Government workers and congress are exempt from social security.




Mike, i know more Americans that are living off of our system than i do Hispanics.

NO ONE CAN LIVE OFF OF THE SYSTEM IF THEY ARE HERE ILLEGALY. I dont care what someone told you, it is not true that illegals are gaming our government, ITS THE OTHER WAY AROUND !!!

We pay many taxes in this country and if we only used that money wisely we could probably pay health care costs for the entire American continent, not only this country.

I know there are many Americans receiving various social services. I know about the Hispanics due to my sister being in healtcare and others whom I know who have told me about the strain these people are putting our our healthcare. They use the services but don't pay. Even if healthcare is passed it should be reserved for tax paying citizens. I don't think it is the responsibility of the government to care for me, my family or my fellow citizens. I especially don't think it is the responsibility of my government to care for non citizens or illegals.




It is a slavery but in a legal kind of way. These people pay taxes Mike, (there are those who do not just like regular Americans but vast majority does). They pay taxes but get nothing in return. Whoever told you that illegals get food stamps is lying. I had my wife read some of these posts here and she is laughing at the amount of miss conception that is out there, no wonder why people hate immigrants.
This country was built on the backs of immigrants, legal and illegal.....And this country gets most of its benefits from those who are here illegally than from those who are not, as those who are, do not have to be cared for..Healthcare is the same way.

I don't see how you can relate this to slavery. I don't see why those who told me about the food stamps would lie about it. Whether that is true or not is beside the primary point of discussion. We are mostly talking about healthcare. I would not say that this country was built on the backs of anyone. Immigrants built this country. At least the descendants of those immigrants did. When people come to this or any other country they should be prepared to take care of themselves. That includes healthcare.



Prescriptions are just one example of us overpaying for something that we should not. Everything else related to health care in this country is the same way. You can never know how much you are being played until you go outside of the box and look at the things from a different point of view. I told you this before.

Canada is one of the richest nations in the world with population of just little over 33 million. Most of that country is still unexplored. It is very rich with minerals and oil. Most of my work in this past week has been there, picking up in Nephton,ON mines and delivering down south. They are not in debt and can never be in financial difficulties in the long run. We are there in the short and long run. We can only wish we were Canada.

Oh BTW, If you're going on 401 you'll see them REMODELING their plazas/rest areas, not closing them down.


I agree that we pay too much for our prescriptions. You can go to Canada or Mexico and buy the same prescriptions for much less than here.

This country is in huge debt and if this healthcare system is passed we may never recover. The only way it can be implemented is with a huge tax increase. Our economy cannot afford it.


Trust me, our government is not taking care of our every need. This country is the only one out there, together with probably Somalia that does not have any kind of a social safety net in the case that people loose their jobs or get sick. No one will help you. That ,,free health care'' has been thrown around by those who do not want to change our ways. IT IS NOT FREE, WE WOULD PAY FOR IT !!!!!
It has gotten ,,just fine'' for 200 years but look at where we are today because of it?

I never said that the government was taking care of your personal needs. There is a generation in this country that does expect the government to take care of them. They are not willing to sacrifice, save and work for what they want. They think the government should send them a check each month, pay for their housing and take care of their healthcare. Someone must pay the bill. As the government payroll grows along with those demanding public assistance, the pool of workers and taxpayers is dwindling. More will be demanded by the government from those who are working to pay more taxes. No country has survived under socialism. All are making adjustments and turning to capitalism to save themselves.



Rest of the world is catching up and catching up fast. In 20 years China will reach our level of sophistication which took us 200 years to reach. WE MUST CHANGE or be left to rot.....
I dont want us to rot, i want us to succed and be that beacon of freedom that made this country what IT WAS.....once am sad to say.

China is catching up because they have been turning away from communism and socialism. Not entirely, but there is a new breed of Chinese who are capitalists. They will lead the world if we fail. We seem to be going toward a system that has always failed while the Russians, Chinese and others are moving more toward capitalism.



Healthcare costs have gotten out of control in every instance, every aspect of this buisiness has gotten more expensive...

No one can stand up against a trillion dollar machine if we(the government) do not, its simple like that.
We ,,can'' or we ,,wont'' do it, there is no ,,we cannot''....WE CAN DO ANYTHING WE WANT, WE PUT A MAN ON THE MOON..but only if we put our mind to it.

We need to stand up and demand the government get out of our business and our lives. It isn't the insurance companies but the government and control that is the problem. I don't want to give up any more of my freedoms in exchange for a government check. These people don't want to help. They want to control. When they implement a social program they exempt themselves. These people don't have the common sense or compassion to run our government or healthcare. They do want to control.

There are things which should be changed. Moving our healthcare into total government control isn't the answer. Just look at the mess they have made out of social security.

[Flying W]

Getting this back somewhat on subject, I dare someone on here to define "succeed in trucking."

No I have not read the book, nor do I have any interest whatsoever in doing so either. The premise to the book was presented, and people commented on that (not the book). This isn't a book report thread. By all means start one, and title it "Audio books that are fun to read."

[GMAN]

Getting this back somewhat on subject, I dare someone on here to define "succeed in trucking."

No I have not read the book, nor do I have any interest whatsoever in doing so either. The premise to the book was presented, and people commented on that (not the book). This isn't a book report thread. By all means start one, and title it "Audio books that are fun to read."


I like the truck in your logo, Flying W. I suppose we have drifted off subject. As far as a definition of succeed or success in trucking is concerned, I will give it a try. I would say that someone who is successful in trucking is someone who has earned a decent living for several years and paid off his equipment. He is someone who has faced adversity and won. He has seen the ups and downs of this business and has stuck it out through good times and bad. I don't necessarily think that someone must own more than one truck to be considered a success in trucking. It isn't the number of trucks but how well he has managed his assets and business. He places value on his service and refuses to haul for less than it costs to operate and earn a profit.

[Flying W]

Thanks as I love cabovers, and wish I had the chance to drive one (especially a K100). Now to figure out how to get a K100 photo small enough to be the avatar (it is hard to find a 64kb photo, and I'm not exactly sure how to reduce a photo in size if possible).

I just offered that as a means to get people to think of success as not only a matter of $'s. The discussion on health insurance was interesting. All I've got to say is I sure hope I stay healthy no matter the result.

[GMAN]

I like some of those old cabovers. I almost bought one that had a 100" sleeper and a queen size bed. It was a Peterbilt. That was when I hauled cars. I don't remember the year, but it had a doghouse. I was relieved when I found that the engine blew a few weeks after I looked at it. It was a nice truck. I believe it has a 425 CAT.

[Dejanh]

I love European style cabovers that Volvo makes, Renault as well. I wish i can own one of those.