sleepiness and HOS

[stonefly]

I awoke in the small hours of the morning and the first thought was a "56" Studebaker Powerhawk, with V-8 and stick shift, sitting in front of the house, my first car. I was seventeen years old.

I jumped into my duds and into the low seat of my "poor man's Corvette." Soon we were tooling along dark, desolate highways. After a couple hours, on the way home, I was awakened by rumble strips growling under the passenger side wheels.

I believe there are two fundamental dangers related to falling asleep at the wheel. The first is a notion that "it can't happen to me."

The second danger is the idea that one can successfully fight sleep. No one should need to fall asleep at the wheel of a vehicle twice in order to realize that such a notion is dangerous.

Falling asleep at the wheel is not a phenomenon specific to commercial drivers. If statistics have any value, somewhere a study is still floating around which finds fatigue related accidents more common among non-commercial drivers. However, the physical penalty for loss of control is potentially much higher in the case of an eighteen wheeler. Anyone who falls asleep at the wheel of a vehicle more than once is not taking personal responsibility that it won't happen again. A commercial driver who has fallen asleep more than one time is a driver who is likely, sooner or later, to have a serious, perhaps deadly accident.

We are being held to higher standards. I don't know if that is a good thing. Perhaps all drivers should be held to the same standards as commercial drivers. After all, it is a matter of life and death.

I'm a driver, not a preacher, but this is as good a time as any to ask everyone, please don't fall asleep driving.

Perhaps there are drivers reading this who did not begin their careers before October 1st, 2005. That was the date that professional drivers lost their right to split sleeper berth time. It is important that we give every driver every incentive and encouragement to take a break when first experiencing the symptoms of sleepiness. I, for one, find the loss of the split sleeper berth provision of HOS regulations to be significant step in the wrong direction.

Draconian measures with regard to HOS come to us through the efforts of self proclaimed public interest groups headed up largely by people who have lost loved ones in truck wrecks. Those people are more emotional than rational. Their skewed efforts have succeeded in giving us rules that make it a disadvantage, economically, for a driver to pull over when sleepy. Regardless, we cannot, as professionals, fall asleep while driving. Perhaps if a single experience is not enough to instill iron resolve that it not be repeated, then significant difficulty in finding work as a driver might be for the best.

There is a web page dedicated to restoring our right to take a break when we are sleepy and drive when we are ready, without economic disadvantage. If you are a driver who needs to, or likes to, take breaks in full 8 hour, or 10 hour blocks, every time, all the time, then by all means do so. There are many of us who do not. Many of us valued the split sleeper berth provision, and we'd like to get it back.

Please don't fall asleep at the wheel. We need you.



stonefly

[golfhobo]

Excellent post, Stonefly. However, it is not true that we lost the split sleeper provision. We lost the "5 and 5" type split that you were used to, but NOT the split provision.

I might agree with you that MANY are/were capable of taking shorter sleeper berth breaks and maintaining awareness, but science has proven otherwise. The depreciation of awareness over long periods of time due to sleep periods of LESS THAN 7 HOURS is indisputable.

What we REALLY lost, is the ability to EXTEND our 14 hour (then, 15 hour) "duty window" by taking any break less than 8 hours in the sleeper.

This DID engender economic issues that have affected many drivers and the industry in general. But, would you place economic considerations ABOVE safety concerrns?

When I was teaming (still am) and had another driver at the wheel, I could excuse an occaisional right side growler as just maybe cutting a curve too tight.... but, when I heard them hit the LEFT SIDE growler.... I came out of the sleeper like a bolt of lightning! :lol2:

There's NO ROOM to play with the median!

Full disclosure.... I did, indeed, start AFTER the change in the fall of 05. However, when driving solo, I've managed to "adjust" my logs to allow me to take a 3 hour nap whenever I felt I needed it. For ME.... 3 hours works fine and doesn't really affect my 14 hour rule. But, I couldn't continue that way forever.... and not with 5 hours either.

I understand your point and your frustration, but I have to agree with the science behind the rules as they are now. IMHO, every driver/person needs a minimum of 7.5 hours of uninterrupted "rest" every day.

I would like to see a compromise that would allow us to EXTEND our day (duty window) for that other 2 hour break (or any OTHER.) I doubt it will happen though.

One thing that can't be argued is that fatal crashes have gone down since the new rules. (even with the numbers of drivers who CHEAT their HOS.)

And that WAS the point of your post, wasn't it?

[SickRick]

The proponents of restoring "split sleeper berth" provision do not seek to extend the 11 hours, nor change the 10 hours off duty/sleeper rule. Just allow the 14 hour clock to be pushed back the amount of time it takes for a 2-3 hour nap.

While I haven't actually operated under HOS rules yet - I've done a fair amount of LD driving, where arrival times were critical (driving a 42' tour bus/RV on tour for a band). I definitely WAS NOT getting my 10 hours rest before having to move on to the next stop on the tour - but when I felt fatigued after 4 or 5 hours of driving, swapping out with a musician (yech and catching a 2 hour nap was just the ticket to prevent driving in a dangerously fatigued condition.

"Creative logging" may end up being a thing of the past if FMCSA has their way, and restoring the split provision would go a long way towards not having to falsify logs in the first place in order to get a load to destination in a timely, safe and efficient manner...

Rick

[stonefly]

It's difficult for me to discuss this matter dispassionately. I thrived under HOS rules when we could split our time. I'm a great fan of science. I studied it for years at an engineering college. That which passes for science nowadays would have gotten a student flunked out of school before he could say "slide rule."

I could sleep and awaken without alarm clocks and never be late. I could have the freedom to pull over and park if I was gonna hit Chicago at rush hour. I could stop anytime I felt sleepy and rest, with no penalty. It's all gone now. I always managed to get stretches of eight or more hours of sleep, even if it wasn't every night. I loved the life of trucking, and always made sure I never drove while sleepy. I was always on time and always got my rest. Since October, 2005, I feel like I'm in the wrong place at the wrong time, all the time. I feel like the law is breathing down my neck.

I don't believe that truck drivers need seven or eight hours of uninterrupted sleep every night. I lived without it for years and never felt any the worse for it. In fact, I liked it. There was adventure in looking for, and taking, the opportunity to rest. When I felt like I needed more rest, I found a way, I took it. No problem.

I lost my way of life when the split sleeper berth provision was removed from HOS rules, and I'm bitter about it. The FMCSA did what they did because the judges ordered them to come up with something under an impossible deadline after the original 2003 rule change was thrown out of court, thrown out because of the meddling of people who know nothing of life on the road. Ironically, the original reasons for the court challenge, the 11th hour driving and the 34 hour restart, were ultimately upheld by the court. So in reality, the removal of the split sleeper berth provision was a stop gap measure with no rationale behind it, implemented solely to comply with a court mandate under short notice. Now we have to live with it. There was a lot of thought and a lot of time spent in formulating the original 2003 rule changes. The split sleeper berth provision was deemed worthy of remaining part of HOS regulations. If the provision was not worthy of being kept, there was every opportunity to have taken it out. Then, in 2005, the provision was removed without warning and without asking for specific and significant input from those who would be affected by the change. That is improper procedure on the part of the rule makers. Check out "bringbacktrucking.com" and read drivers' comments. The comments are being ignored by the feds because the comment opportunity was technically for soliciting comments in regard to the 11th hour and the 34 hour restart. Yet most of the comments were more passionately concerned with the loss of the split sleeper berth provision.

If the split sleeper berth provision were restored, there would be no implication that drivers could not take eight hour or ten hour breaks if they so desired. However, there are those of us who climb the walls of the truck when we are rested and yet can't go anywhere. That is stressful. Stress is not healthy.

Science? What scientist? Look at the back of a soup can or a box of stove top dressing. Listed will be the minimum daily requirements for the nutrients essential for human health. It's a crock. I'll give you the best recipe for human health in the nutrition department...disciplined under eating.

For me and many other truckers, the safe and successful delivery of freight under difficult circumstances and delivery deadlines developed into an art. I can't count the times I rolled into a receiver's lot, parked, walked to the window, and slapped down my paperwork just as the clock hit my appointment time. That's without the aid of an alarm clock, without speeding, and without worrying. It comes from years of knowing the highways, the cities, the truck, my own rest requirements, and my ability to stop when it feels right and drive when it feels right. The latter part is of utmost importance. It's an art form. Trucking for me, and many others, is a matter of turning life itself into an art. It's what made me love the life. I'm not Eric Clapton, I'm a truck driver. How would Eric Clapton be able to play beautiful guitar music if couldn't choose his songs, or the musical keys in which he plays them?

Economic disadvantage should not be underestimated in its relation to safety factors. If a driver knows he will not be able to come through for his family because HOS rules place him in a situation where pulling off the road for a needed break leads to a missed appointment, then the HOS rules are where the danger lies, and they need to be changed.

The split sleeper berth provision that we lost carried with it our right to split time 3/7...4/6...5/5...6 1/2 / 3 1/2...etc...

The way things are now, if a driver stops for 3, 4, 5, or 6 hours, it counts for nothing, HOS-wise. Unless a driver takes a full eight hours, sleep time counts for zero in the log book. Who has enough time in their lives that they can afford to throw out 3, or 4, or 5 or 6 hours several times a week, as if that time was not important?

It gets worse. If a driver has an 8 AM appointment, he has to make sure he reaches a receiver's lot by midnight or he will lose the entire next day's work, and then have to spend the entire next night going nuts in his truck. The only alternatives are speeding, to make sure to get there by midnight, or logbook falsification. I know. I've lived with the scenario. Before we lost split time, there was no problem. Arrive 2 AM, sleep for six hours, back into a door, sleep for a few more hours while unloading, look for another load, and get back to work...all legal...plenty of rest...

The way it is now? Arrive 2 AM, sleep for six hours, it doesn't count, sleep for a few more hours while unloading, it doesn't count, get signed bills at ll AM or 12 noon, begin mandatory eight hour break after being in the bunk for over eight hours and being ready to work, go crazy for the rest of the day and the rest of the night. Lose a day's work...look for another load in the morning...If it should happen on a Friday, lose a whole weekend's work.

There is one thing and one thing only that keeps a driver from going to sleep at the wheel, and that is the driver's resolve that he will not let it happen. He'll get off the road when sleepy. That's it...that's all...

There is one thing and one thing only that keeps a driver healthy, and that is the driver's resolve that he will not let anything destroy his health. He'll eat what is good for him and he'll rest when he needs rest. That's it...that's all...

Resolve...Government regulations cannot replace a driver's resolve.

Regulations can be constructed in a way to cause a driver's resolve to work against him. That's what is happening. The people who make the rules do not want a nation of men, they want a nation of compliant slaves.



stonefly

[geomon]

Stonefly,
While I agree with you on having multiple options for splitting sleeper berths I have to disagree with you on the driver resolve point. Just look around you while driving or at your nightly TS and you'll see lots of drivers for whom the word "resolve" means absolutely nothing and pushing themselves into exhaustion to "get a few more miles done" will become a regular and dangerous occurance. Unfortunately I believe there are too few people out there that would act as you state.

[Rev.Vassago]

I would like to see a compromise that would allow us to EXTEND our day (duty window) for that other 2 hour break (or any OTHER.)

All that would serve to do is allow a driver to add a 2 hour sleeper berth break into his log whenever he needed to stretch his 14 hour clock a little further, whether he actually takes the 2 hour break or not.

[stonefly]

Stonefly,
While I agree with you on having multiple options for splitting sleeper berths I have to disagree with you on the driver resolve point. Just look around you while driving or at your nightly TS and you'll see lots of drivers for whom the word "resolve" means absolutely nothing and pushing themselves into exhaustion to "get a few more miles done" will become a regular and dangerous occurance. Unfortunately I believe there are too few people out there that would act as you state.

Can you clarify for me how the present HOS regulations prevent or correct the scenario you describe?



stonefly

[stonefly]

The original 2003 rule changes were the best "one size fits all" set of regulations that we were ever going to get. They were well thought out and did not interfere with a driver getting rest or getting work done.

The 2005 elimination of the split sleeper berth provision was hasty and ill conceived.

The present regulations count sleep time as work hours. That is fundamentally wrong and no good can come from it.



stonefly

[Rev.Vassago]

The split sleeper berth provision was not eliminated. It was modified.

[stonefly]

The split sleeper berth provision was not eliminated. It was modified.

Do you use it?

I used to use it all the time. I can't anymore.

If you're still using it, please explain the modification to me so I can once again split my bunk time.




stonefly

[Rev.Vassago]

The only change that was made from the 2003 rules was to require one of the periods to be at least 8 hours long. Under the old rules, one of the periods would have been at least 5 hours long, so it is simply adding 3 hours to one of the periods.

From what I understand, teams liked being able to sleep 5, drive 5, sleep 5 etc. Under the new rules, they have to sleep 8, drive 8, sleep 8, etc.

But you know what? The regs aren't going to change again anytime soon. That much is clear. So you can spend all your time lamenting their loss, or you can learn to adapt to the new regs.

[stonefly]

The only change that was made from the 2003 rules was to require one of the periods to be at least 8 hours long. Under the old rules, one of the periods would have been at least 5 hours long, so it is simply adding 3 hours to one of the periods.

From what I understand, teams liked being able to sleep 5, drive 5, sleep 5 etc. Under the new rules, they have to sleep 8, drive 8, sleep 8, etc.

But you know what? The regs aren't going to change again anytime soon. That much is clear. So you can spend all your time lamenting their loss, or you can learn to adapt to the new regs.

I'm one of those people who tries to correct things that are wrong, through proper channels. It is a difficult and sometimes frustrating path, I can assure you.

You're probably right, the regs probably aren't going to change anytime soon, at least not for the better. Patience is called for. I'm still trying to get the split sleeper berth provision restored. I'm not making the effort solo, however. I'm in good company.

Do you drive a truck?



stonefly

[Rev.Vassago]

Do you drive a truck?

Yes. And I've operated under every set of HOS regulations.

[stonefly]

The only change that was made from the 2003 rules was to require one of the periods to be at least 8 hours long. Under the old rules, one of the periods would have been at least 5 hours long, so it is simply adding 3 hours to one of the periods.

From what I understand, teams liked being able to sleep 5, drive 5, sleep 5 etc. Under the new rules, they have to sleep 8, drive 8, sleep 8, etc.

But you know what? The regs aren't going to change again anytime soon. That much is clear. So you can spend all your time lamenting their loss, or you can learn to adapt to the new regs.



I worked on this with some other truckers. We put together a web page.

[stonefly]

Yes. And I've operated under every set of HOS regulations.

Don't you find the new regulations difficult to obey, while still getting rest and still getting your work done?



stonefly

[golfhobo]

All that would serve to do is allow a driver to add a 2 hour sleeper berth break into his log whenever he needed to stretch his 14 hour clock a little further, whether he actually takes the 2 hour break or not.

Not exactly. He STILL cannot drive more miles than his truck speed (averaged) would allow him in 11 hours. For those with slower trucks (especially,) this would allow them to get that nap they might need and STILL get the miles they should be able to get without driving sleepy. It's the same as the old method of extending the duty window for any and all breaks.

Yes, I have at times added a two hour break I didn't take simply so that I could shut down for only 8 hours. But, I STILL had to shut down for those 8 hours of "restorative" rest before pushing on. [and usually this was because I took numerous 45 minute naps or breaks.]

The only time this really mattered to me was on days when I was more sleepy than others. I might need TWO naps. Or I might need one nap and a lunch.... or just want to sit out rush hour. But, like Stonefly... I had to push on without that extra nap to get my miles before my 14 hour "window" closed. Had I been able to extend my window, I could still only have driven the number of miles achievable within 11 hours at an average speed for my truck and the speed limits (no matter HOW many naps I took.)

[golfhobo]

Rev.Vassago said:


The only change that was made from the 2003 rules was to require one of the periods to be at least 8 hours long. Under the old rules, one of the periods would have been at least 5 hours long, so it is simply adding 3 hours to one of the periods.


And this was done because the overwhelming majority of medical professionals determined and agreed (after EXTENSIVE testing and research) that the average person AND the average trucker needed between 7 and 7.5 hours of uninterrupted sleep daily to avoid a compounding affect of sleep deprivation leading to slower reaction times, lower awareness, etc.

Surely there are exceptions and you (Stonefly) might be one. But, do you want to share the road with those who are NOT?


From what I understand, teams liked being able to sleep 5, drive 5, sleep 5 etc. Under the new rules, they have to sleep 8, drive 8, sleep 8, etc.


Actually.... they can't. Driver #1 who drives 8 then sleeps 8 can then only drive 3 more hours before they have to park the truck for 2 hours because driver #2, who slept 8 then drove 8 needs another 8 and then a two.... it gets REAL screwed up real fast! I can't even explain it thoroughly! Get out a couple of grids and try it for yourself. It just doesn't work! There are a few options for "covering" for each other's naps, but it STILL ends up with the truck parked several times a day. :thumbsdown:

Although I have used the split several times while teaming, it only works for certain circumstances depending on delivery times, etc. It does NOT allow the truck to keep moving. This can ONLY be done by taking full 10 hour breaks.


But you know what? The regs aren't going to change again anytime soon. That much is clear. So you can spend all your time lamenting their loss, or you can learn to adapt to the new regs.


Or you can learn to "adjust" your logs accordingly! ;)

[Rev.Vassago]

Don't you find the new regulations difficult to obey, while still getting rest and still getting your work done?



stonefly

No. I find the new regs to be quite manageable. I definitely like them more than the previous version (which required that the split sleeper be one period of at least 8 hours, and a second period of more than 2, but less than 10, and if you didn't get a period of more than 2, but less than 10, the 8 hour break counted toward your 14 hour clock). In the years that these regs have been in effect, I've run into very few periods of time when I was struggling to get my work done, and in those cases, it was usually due to the 70 hour clock creeping up on me.

But I absolutely LOVE the 34 hour reset (as most drivers do), and wouldn't want to go back to the pre-2003 regs because of it.

[Rev.Vassago]

Actually.... they can't. Driver #1 who drives 8 then sleeps 8 can then only drive 3 more hours before they have to park the truck for 2 hours because driver #2, who slept 8 then drove 8 needs another 8 and then a two.... it gets REAL screwed up real fast! I can't even explain it thoroughly! Get out a couple of grids and try it for yourself. It just doesn't work! There are a few options for "covering" for each other's naps, but it STILL ends up with the truck parked several times a day.

Yeah, I realized it after I posted it, but was too lazy to change it. It would have a driver running 5 hours past his 11 hour clock, as well as at least 2 hours past his 14 hour clock.

[mike3fan]

I agree with Rev. if given the choice I believe most drivers would give up the old split sleeper berth options for the 34hr reset. I know I certainly would.

[Orangetxguy]

Face it. We iz twuckews und we izn't smert enuff to figga oot whut Are bawdies can hundle.

[golfhobo]

Yeah, I realized it after I posted it, but was too lazy to change it. It would have a driver running 5 hours past his 11 hour clock, as well as at least 2 hours past his 14 hour clock.

Where is Dobry4U when we NEED her! :lol:

Seriously REV... no problem. Teaming is a different animal... which you have never done. I understand. Wouldn't it be nice if they had separate HOS rules for US? If they believe that 8 hours IN THE SLEEPER is good enough, then they should write rules that allow TEAMS to do just that! In MOST cases, we take a two hour break once a day to eat and shower anyway!

The ONLY "split" that works well for TEAMS is the 5 and 5. MAYBE a 6 and 5 and an "expected" meal break. The interesting thing is, that we rarely come CLOSE to the 14 hour limit! Personally.... I don't WANT to have to get up again after only 5 or 6 hours sleep and drive again!

I have ALWAYS said that the FMCSA regs were geared toward the SOLO driver. And I WILL say that when I DID get to drive Solo.... I had to work my butt off to "manage" my logbook! :lol2:

The FACT remains that there IS a "split sleeper" option available to all drivers that CAN be used efficiently (in some cases) to meet schedules while STILL ensuring a rested driver. If managed properly, it allows a driver to take a shower and eat.... AND have that time count towards the total 10 hour off duty requirement. And when all is said and done, you arrive at the SAME time as you would if you took a full 10 hour break OR if you drove/slept 5 and 5.

[Rev.Vassago]

The FACT remains that there IS a "split sleeper" option available to all drivers that CAN be used efficiently (in some cases) to meet schedules while STILL ensuring a rested driver. If managed properly, it allows a driver to take a shower and eat.... AND have that time count towards the total 10 hour off duty requirement. And when all is said and done, you arrive at the SAME time as you would if you took a full 10 hour break OR if you drove/slept 5 and 5.

And as such, there is no need for any changes to the current regs in regards to the spllit sleeper provision. Sure, there are ways that it would be easier, but the current regs work (as attested by you), and they also work for the solo driver (as attested by me), so if they aren't working for someone else, it probably isn't the fault of the regs.

[stonefly]

And this was done because the overwhelming majority of medical professionals determined and agreed (after EXTENSIVE testing and research) that the average person AND the average trucker needed between 7 and 7.5 hours of uninterrupted sleep daily to avoid a compounding affect of sleep deprivation leading to slower reaction times, lower awareness, etc.



I've been around for long enough to have acquired a healthy suspicion with regard to all who are labeled experts. The best I ever heard is that an "expert" is somebody who's a long way from home because at home they don't let him talk.

I don't believe it. The testing and research is junk science and means nothing at all. A trucker who lives a life of splitting his bunk time and getting rest wherever he needs it probably gains faster reaction times, not slower. It's the same thing as the daily required nutrients they print on canned food. It's meaningless.

Under split sleeper berth rules, mandatory eight hour stretches of sleep are not legally required, but drivers found time to get those large blocks of sleep anyway, required or not, because they wanted them. I've been looking at this for a long time and have noticed that truck stops and rest areas fill up full at night and have been for a long time. That is because most drivers want, and get, a full night's rest whenever they can, regardless of regulations. Maybe things were different fifteen or twenty years ago, but today, drivers seek rest. They don't need regulations that categorize bunk time as work hours. Nobody needs that. It's dangerous. Sleep time is never work time. The present law is dangerously out of conformity with reality.

What is important is getting rest when needed.

The most dangerous part of the mandatory eight hour sleep break is the part that counts blocks of bunk time shorter than eight hours as a driver's working hours. That is an insane bit of legislation. No driver wants to, or can afford to, sacrifice his working hours. Therefore, in order to stay legal under the present regs, he has to skip sleep breaks and naps. Another way of stating this is that he must continue to drive when sleepy. That is the greatest danger of all and has nothing to do with "cumulative sleep deficit."

I'm not on this forum to wail about the present regs or look for sympathy because I find them difficult to live with. I'm writing about them because I'm trying to get the split sleeper berth provision restored as part of HOS regulations. I'm trying to find drivers who will continue to contact their legislators and get the present regs reversed.

Here is the gist of it: The most important, and most dangerous reality regarding the present regs is the practice of forgoing needed sleep breaks because the time counts against a driver's working hours. That dangerous aspect of the present regs trumps anything else.

Split time was part of the trucking regs for 70 years, for good reason. Good reason goes out the window these days, and not enough people do anything about. Contact your legislators.



stonefly

[stonefly]

The FACT remains that there IS a "split sleeper" option available to all drivers that CAN be used efficiently (in some cases) to meet schedules while STILL ensuring a rested driver. If managed properly, it allows a driver to take a shower and eat.... AND have that time count towards the total 10 hour off duty requirement. And when all is said and done, you arrive at the SAME time as you would if you took a full 10 hour break OR if you drove/slept 5 and 5.

...falsification of the log books...

That option will be gone if EOBRs are mandated.

If EOBRs are mandated, in conjunction with the present HOS rules, we will have a new game of "who can stay awake at the wheel." The only drivers who will get the loads will be the ones who can do an 11 hour stretch without taking a break. That would be a great economic spur for all the meth labs springing up around the country.

Personally, I prefer sleep breaks to amphetamines. I think there may be among the rule makers those who have their money invested in the meth labs.



stonefly

[Rev.Vassago]

The most dangerous part of the mandatory eight hour sleep break is the part that counts blocks of bunk time shorter than eight hours as a driver's working hours. That is an insane bit of legislation. No driver wants to, or can afford to, sacrifice his working hours. Therefore, in order to stay legal under the present regs, he has to skip sleep breaks and naps. Another way of stating this is that he must continue to drive when sleepy. That is the greatest danger of all and has nothing to do with "cumulative sleep deficit."

The statistics regarding fatigue and crashes since the new rules were put in place would grossly disagree with your assessment.

[stonefly]

The statistics regarding fatigue and crashes since the new rules were put in place would grossly disagree with your assessment.

No they wouldn't.



stonefly

[stonefly]

The statistics regarding fatigue and crashes since the new rules were put in place would grossly disagree with your assessment.

Who are the people coming up with those statistics? The same people who made the rules?



stonefly

[Rev.Vassago]

Yeah, it's a gubberment conspiracy. Break out the tin foil.

Prove their statistics wrong then, because at-fault truck crashes have been going DOWN year after year.

[LightsChromeHorsepower]

No they wouldn't.



stonefly

Yes they would. I have read a couple of excellent books on sleep research. Most people don't get enough.

And I think that weird sleep cycles and poor sleep quality still affect drivers in a major way. I know when I pull our tanker I'm at the mercy of our customers production schedule with random 8, 10 or 16 hour shifts. It gets my body confused by the end of the week. More than once I've slept in the parking lot after unloading even though I had the hours to get home legally. I got a horrible night of sleep in LA Friday, so I took a 3 hour nap coming home. The nap caused me to go over my 16, but I was awake & alert for the rest of the trip.

I'm not crazy about the current HOS regs, but I can make them work. In Cali we get 12 & 16, not 11 & 14, that helps a lot. The problem is that they occasionally force one to lie and thus break the law, which gives the powers that be leverage over me because I've made myself a criminal. It's a common strategy, used by countless regimes over the course of history- make laws that the average citizen will break so you can place almost anyone under the thumb of power at almost any time.

I'm not sure what I will do if we have to have EOBR's. It's a fairly common scenario dor me to run out of hours 45 minutes from home on an LA turn. What really sucks is that the closest place back on the route to get any services is Westley, which is over 2 hours. I'm not shutting down for 10 hours when I'm 45 minutes from home and I'm not shutting down 2 hours early because there's no parking or services available near where I will run out of hours.

[stonefly]

Yeah, it's a gubberment conspiracy. Break out the tin foil.



Are you a sissy?

[golfhobo]

Originally Posted by golfhobo http://www.classadrivers.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.classadrivers.com/forum/rules-regulations-dac-oh-my/37882-sleepiness-hos.html#post450403)

The FACT remains that there IS a "split sleeper" option available to all drivers that CAN be used efficiently (in some cases) to meet schedules while STILL ensuring a rested driver. If managed properly, it allows a driver to take a shower and eat.... AND have that time count towards the total 10 hour off duty requirement. And when all is said and done, you arrive at the SAME time as you would if you took a full 10 hour break OR if you drove/slept 5 and 5.



...falsification of the log books...



I mean no disrespect and am not looking for a fight Stonefly... but, I'm not sure you actually understand the new rules. NOTHING in what I said above (that you quoted) implies any "falsification" of a logbook.

More on this after I answer your other post.

[Fredog]

I'd like to chime in, but I'm just too tired

[golfhobo]

stonefly said:


an "expert" is somebody who's a long way from home because at home they don't let him talk.


:lol::lol::lol: That's a good one.


I don't believe it. The testing and research is junk science and means nothing at all.


That sounds like an opinion based on a preconcieved and desired outcome. I have actually SEEN videos of subjects trying to put pegs in holes, etc after varying sleep patterns. The camera doesn't lie. The results are clear to even the most stubborn viewer.


A trucker who lives a life of splitting his bunk time and getting rest wherever he needs it probably gains faster reaction times, not slower.


And how 'bout that NEWBIE out there on the road with you? You think he's had TIME to develop such an "adjusted" sleep pattern?

Under (the OLD?) split sleeper berth rules, mandatory eight hour stretches of sleep are not legally required, but drivers found time to get those large blocks of sleep anyway, required or not, because they wanted them. I've been looking at this for a long time and have noticed that truck stops and rest areas fill up full at night and have been for a long time. That is because most drivers want, and get, a full night's rest whenever they can, regardless of regulations.

Under the old rules, MANY drivers claim that they kept moving thru the night after their 5 hour nap because traffic was easier. Truckstops were RARELY as crowded as they are now. The reason they are NOW is that most drivers shut down for 10 at a time, so they call it a night. I don't disagree that MOST drivers will get a full night's sleep when they can, but with the advent of Just In Time warehousing, those times are not always available. The regulations are not SO MUCH designed to penalize the driver, or make him shut down, as they are to PREVENT carriers from demanding drivers keep pushing even when they are tired.


Maybe things were different fifteen or twenty years ago, but today, drivers seek rest. They don't need regulations that categorize bunk time as work hours.


Here is where I don't understand your viewpoint. Other than the fact that any "naps" that exceed a cumulative of 3 hours a day would reduce your "duty window of 14 hours," NONE of your sleeper berth time would count as work hours. Even when you take a two hour break for lunch it doesn't count against your 70 for the week. And ANY Sleeper berth period of at least 8 hours doesn't count against your 14 hour limit OR your 70. In fact, even a 7 hour sleeper berth break, tho it counts against your duty window, doesn't count against your 70. The 8/2 is the same as a full 10 hour break per 14 hour duty window. If you can't "manage" to stay in the sleeper for 8 hours instead of 7, YOU are the one at fault.


What is important is getting rest when needed.


I agree. But the only time I NEEDED multiple naps during the day is when I had cheated my logs and NOT gotten my full 8 or 10 hour rest period.


The most dangerous part of the mandatory eight hour sleep break is the part that counts blocks of bunk time shorter than eight hours as a driver's working hours.


No... it doesn't. It don't go against your 70. And... it would count as the 2 hour requirement, allowing you to "split" and only need to shut down for 8.


That is an insane bit of legislation. No driver wants to, or can afford to, sacrifice his working hours. Therefore, in order to stay legal under the present regs, he has to skip sleep breaks and naps.


ONLY if he is a poor manager of his time. In fact, the NEW RULES that include the 34 hour restart have INCREASED the number of hours a driver can work/drive within 7 days... and THIS is the main reason Public Citizen and other groups oppose them.


Another way of stating this is that he must continue to drive when sleepy. That is the greatest danger of all and has nothing to do with "cumulative sleep deficit."


The ONLY part of the new rules that cause this is the NONextendable 14 hour "duty window." It has NOTHING to do with the new limits on the split sleeper berth.


I'm not on this forum to wail about the present regs or look for sympathy because I find them difficult to live with. I'm writing about them because I'm trying to get the split sleeper berth provision restored as part of HOS regulations. I'm trying to find drivers who will continue to contact their legislators and get the present regs reversed.


It would be easier to follow your argument if you would stop saying that the split sleeper berth option no longer exists. You are referring to the OLD S/B provisions. 5/5...8/2.... what's the difference really? The thing that is missing is the EXTENDABLE 15 hour duty window.

Here is the gist of it: The most important, and most dangerous reality regarding the present regs is the practice of forgoing needed sleep breaks because the time counts against a driver's working hours.

No... it doesn't. And BTW.... under the OLD rules, you had no 34 hour restart. This meant that regardless of how you split your rest time, you could only work 70 hours in 8 days. Under the NEW rules including the 34 hour provision, you can work something like 98 hours (I forget the actual number) in the same 8 days! Now.... you STILL want to go back to the good ole days?


Split time was part of the trucking regs for 70 years, for good reason.


R-i-g-h-t. The SAME reason why there were monopolies in oil, airline and other industries. The same reason why there was no minimum wage. The same reason doctors could work anytime and for as long as they wanted before operating on you. The same reason some states had no speed limits. The list goes on.

[Rev.Vassago]

Are you a sissy?

No.

As I said, prove the statistics wrong, because everything I've seen disagrees with your baseless stance.

[LightsChromeHorsepower]

Check this story out;

Regional pilots lack sleep, salary, experience (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/05/17/MNN117LV08.DTL&hw=airline+pilots&sn=002&sc=907)

100K in debt for a 25K per year job?

CDL mills look wonderful in comparison.

[stonefly]

golfhobo,

You're wrong. You're wrong about this, and I see you don't understand a thing I said. I know that you don't understand the advantage of splitting bunk time. Also, you do not realize that presently there is no split sleeper berth provision. You are trying to explain to me that I can still split my time, and that I should be having no problem. I started having big problems in October, 2005. I split my time for 7 years OTR and it became a way of life that I enjoyed. It gave me no sleep problems. I rarely hit 70 hours. I run under my own authority. I rarely get close to 3000 miles a week. I do not try to drive a lot of miles. I try to take loads that pay good rates. You do not understand. You don't. You cannot see the problem.

I don't want to go through an entire post line by line, but I'd like to start with one point of discussion.

Management of time?

The law. Once a driver starts his truck and takes a walk around it, looking things over, he has started his day. He must draw a little line on line 4. Fourteen hours later, he must stop driving. My friend, that is the law and I think you know it.

I've driven coast to coast many times. I've also spent a lot of time on the eastern seaboard. For most of my 11 years OTR, the eastern seaboard, with its 500 mile to 600 mile runs, has been my bread and butter. I pull a reefer.

I am used to backing up to a dock door and going to sleep, very often, for loading and unloading. I know the places where I might oughta' watch 'em load me and I know the places where I don't have to watch 'em load me. I like the places where I don't have to watch 'em load me because then I can lie in my bunk and sleep.

It's not unusual to sit at a dock for 2, 3, 4, or 5 hours, or perhaps longer, to get loaded, or unloaded. That's food warehouses, my friend. Perhaps you already know.

To make this simple to understand, and believe me, I wanna try and do that here, let's say it takes 3 hours to get a door and get loaded on a 600 mile run, for an 8 AM appointment the following morning. That is a standard, run of the mill, everyday, common type load.

Now, let's say pick up time was 9 AM. There is nothing unusual about that. A 9 AM pick up appointment, and a 600 mile run, for an 8 AM delivery the following morning, is not, or shouldn't be, anything that is particularly difficult to accomplish. That's 23 hours to load, drive, rest, eat, fuel, and maybe even shower.

Follow this so far. A 9 AM pick up on day one, for an 8 AM delivery the following morning, 600 miles. That is a common, bread and butter run for many truckers like myself.

The 3 hours loading is normal. I don't know what kind of trucking you do, but time spent at loading and unloading docks is part of trucking.

For a driver who obeys speed limits, I'll guarantee you that running 600 miles on the eastern seaboard is going to eat up every bit of 11 hours.

Now, my friend, 3 hours has been spent at a loading dock, and 14 minus 3 equals 11.

So you see, my friend, management of time has been removed from the hands of the man who needs it most, and if I need to explain the matter to you any further, let me know. I'll be happy to do so. For now, I choose to leave it up to your intelligence, and I know you ain't dumb.



stonefly

[Rev.Vassago]

It's all too clear to me that your beef with the regulations has nothing to do with obtaining restorative sleep (which the new regulations certainly allow for), and everything to do with your inability to earn as much money under the new regulations.

You are using the guise of "junk science" as your scapegoat. But the facts don't support you, and no matter how much you try to ignore them, they never will.

[Jumbo]

You guys have to break out your tin foil hats? I never take mine off.

[Rev.Vassago]

This entire thread is nothing more than "waah waah we're not making enough money so we need the gubberment to help us". Learn to adapt or get out of the game.

[stonefly]

Check this story out;

Regional pilots lack sleep, salary, experience (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/05/17/MNN117LV08.DTL&hw=airline+pilots&sn=002&sc=907)

100K in debt for a 25K per year job?

CDL mills look wonderful in comparison.


I ain't gettin' on no airplane.

[stonefly]

Yes they would. I have read a couple of excellent books on sleep research. Most people don't get enough.

No they wouldn't. My assessment is that "The most dangerous part of the mandatory eight hour sleep break is the part that counts blocks of bunk time shorter than eight hours as a driver's working hours." Simply stated, all of a driver's working hours are contained within the fourteen hour clock. An eight hour bunk break can extend the fourteen hour deadline, but it doesn't add any hours of work time to the fourteen hours. If a driver has to drive 11 hours of the 14, has spent time at a loading dock, fueling, doing a pre-trip, weighing, using a restroom, or eating, there is probably not going to be much left of 14 minus 11. The loading time alone could eat up most or all of the three hours. Therefore, any time a driver gets sleepy during his 11 hours, he'll be in a position where bunk time will use up his working hours. Effectively, he could spend needed time in the bunk, but that time will count against his 14 hours. Anybody who says that is not "bunk time being counted as work time" is playing a game of semantics.

I won't argue that there is no such thing as cumulative sleep deficit. However, regardless of any sleep studies done by anyone, we shouldn't overlook the point that a driver can become sleepy at any time. It can happen 1 hour into a shift after a 10 hour break. It would be amazing if a driver could get through 11 straight hours of driving without becoming sleepy. It can happen after a meal. It can happen because of many factors. Most importantly, it can happen to someone who has had plenty of sleep. In fact, it happens quite often. For most people, it is relatively inconsequential. When it happens to a driver, the driver must get off the road. Nothing else matters. The reasons for spontaneous sleepiness may never be understood, but for a driver, the only responsible course of action is to get off the road.

None of that has anything to do with sleep deficit. What is does relate to is the predicament where a driver is sleepy but cannot afford to lose whatever time remains from his 14 hours. It is a predicament where his common sense is at odds with the reality of a delivery requirement. It is a predicament where if the driver stops for a much needed nap, he will not be legal to meet a delivery requirement. If loading time has taken up the better part of the three hours left after 11 hours of driving are subtracted, then management of time on the part of the driver has nothing to do with the problem he faces.

Sleep studies have nothing to do with that predicament. Sleep studies are geared toward long term sleep deficit and irregular hours of sleep. The split sleeper berth provision that was removed from HOS regulations had little to do with quantity of sleep, and everything to do with timing of sleep. As far as regularity is concerned, over the road truck driving hours are not anywhere near 9 to 5. I for one, do not want a 9 to 5 job. If I did, I wouldn't want to be a truck driver. I wouldn't own a tractor and trailer. Trucking hours are as irregular as they ever were. The removal of the split sleeper berth provision did nothing to make the trucker's life one of regular hours.

Therefore, sleep studies have little to do with the split sleeper berth provision, except for the notion of eight continuous hours of sleep every night. That is a pie in the sky goal for most independent OTR truckers.

What about stress?

In the trucking business, the prospect of being forced to take eight hours of sleep when one does not want to, or physically cannot, sleep for eight hours, can be stressful to the point where more harm than good is accomplished. When I go to sleep, and wake up spontaneously, I don't want to go back to sleep. If I have part of my journey in front of me, I wanna go, not sit around twiddling my thumbs waiting for my eight hours to be up. The most important thing in the trucking business is to be able to get sleep when it is needed. The rules following the loss of the split sleeper berth provision make it difficult for a driver to get sleep when he needs sleep, and often mandate a driver to park his truck when he doesn't need sleep.

That is my assessment, and there are no sleep studies that have anything to do with it. Why? Because sleep studies are done under controlled circumstances, and the many factors involved in the life of a trucker are outside of those circumstances. No scientist would ever try and back up his work when he knew that factors outside of his control had tainted his experiments. Truckers are not laboratory specimens.



And I think that weird sleep cycles and poor sleep quality still affect drivers in a major way. I know when I pull our tanker I'm at the mercy of our customers production schedule with random 8, 10 or 16 hour shifts. It gets my body confused by the end of the week. More than once I've slept in the parking lot after unloading even though I had the hours to get home legally. I got a horrible night of sleep in LA Friday, so I took a 3 hour nap coming home. The nap caused me to go over my 16, but I was awake & alert for the rest of the trip.

So you broke the law, like so many of us do, because you needed sleep. Then you completed the trip safely, but illegally. So much for the safety value of present HOS rules.


I'm not crazy about the current HOS regs, but I can make them work. In Cali we get 12 & 16, not 11 & 14, that helps a lot. The problem is that they occasionally force one to lie and thus break the law, which gives the powers that be leverage over me because I've made myself a criminal. It's a common strategy, used by countless regimes over the course of history- make laws that the average citizen will break so you can place almost anyone under the thumb of power at almost any time.

Yes, I believe what you have just stated is exactly that which is presently happening in the land of the free and the home of the brave. Are you going to lie down for it or are you going to exercise your freedom of speech? This matter is quite a good opportunity for those who believe in freedom of speech.


I'm not sure what I will do if we have to have EOBR's. It's a fairly common scenario dor me to run out of hours 45 minutes from home on an LA turn. What really sucks is that the closest place back on the route to get any services is Westley, which is over 2 hours. I'm not shutting down for 10 hours when I'm 45 minutes from home and I'm not shutting down 2 hours early because there's no parking or services available near where I will run out of hours.

The EOBR will be the snapping shut of the jaws. Once you have an EOBR in your truck, a cop only needs to take a quick peek and you're busted, busted for taking that nap.



I listen to drivers.

Once, years ago, I waited on line at a receiving window at a cold storage in McDonough, GA. There was a fellow there, a family man, and he was smoking one cigarette after another as he told his story, between drags. I think he was a Werner driver, or maybe it was some other outfit that had gone paperless. He told about a predicament where he was 15 minutes away from a drop, but was out of time. The guy was having a tough time explaining to us what they had done to him, because I think it hurt too much. They were either gonna fine the hell out of him for missing an appointment, if he stopped where he was, or they were going to fine the hell out of him for going over his driving time, if he went ahead and made the delivery. They let him make the choice. I forget what he said that he did. That wasn't the important part of the story.

No hard working family man truck driver in the United States of America should have to put up with anything like that. Yet, for sure, we'll have somebody say something like, "Well, the guy shoulda' managed his time better."

I don't know if you checked this out yet. There are a lot of comments, and we worked real hard to glean them from the comment period for the 11th hour driving and the 34 hour restart when they were asking for input from the public. There were many comments on the loss of the split sleeper berth provision although that was not specifically why the comment period was designated. What you see on that web page is just the tip of the ice berg. We couldn't get all the comments by any means because it was a lot of work, and we're only talking about the ones who commented. There are many drivers who want to see the return of the split sleeper berth provision who do not write in. (I wrote the intro, for the benefit of non-truckers who visit the site. If you want you can just go to the bottom of the page to read comments.)

If you believe like the drivers on this web site, write to your congressmen and senators. This is still the United States of America.



stonefly

[kc0iv]

stonefly,

There is still a split sleeper as defined by the "Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration." Now I'd be the first to say it isn't the same as the older rules, but it still exist.

Read your comments it becomes clear your complaint has nothing to do with sleep periods or rest times. What is coming through is you don't like the rules because you can't do it your way. The rules were changed because to many drivers were doing it their way and were not getting enough sleep.

You say: "Once you have an EOBR in your truck, a cop only needs to take a quick peek and you're busted, busted for taking that nap." You nor anyone else will ever get a ticket for taking a nap (assuming you are legally parked). Yes you might get one for extending your driving time but not for taking a nap.

I hope if you do write your congressmen and senators you make the time to properly describe your complaint.

kc0iv

[stonefly]

stonefly,

There is still a split sleeper as defined by the "Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration." Now I'd be the first to say it isn't the same as the older rules, but it still exist.

Read your comments it becomes clear your complaint has nothing to do with sleep periods or rest times. What is coming through is you don't like the rules because you can't do it your way. The rules were changed because to many drivers were doing it their way and were not getting enough sleep.

You say: "Once you have an EOBR in your truck, a cop only needs to take a quick peek and you're busted, busted for taking that nap." You nor anyone else will ever get a ticket for taking a nap (assuming you are legally parked). Yes you might get one for extending your driving time but not for taking a nap.

I hope if you do write your congressmen and senators you make the time to properly describe your complaint.

kc0iv

You are wrong. There is no split sleeper berth provision. Eight hours of bunk time is mandated. That is the same length of bunk time that has been in required for over 70 years. Now, the eight hours cannot be split into two blocks as it could before. The eight hours must be taken all in one block.

The FMCSA can say 6 is 9 and you would believe it. You definitely are not the type of driver I am hoping to find on this forum, and definitely not the type of American I'm hoping to find. So you needn't respond any further. However, you can read this if you like, so that you can realize you don't know how to read. Then upon realizing your shortcoming, you may decide to take steps to improve yourself.

The complaint is that if a driver gets sleepy during a run and has spent enough time in activities like loading, unloading, fueling, eating, etc..., there does not remain enough time to take a break without the time going against the 14 hour clock. Is that clear enough? The driver will have to make a decision. Forgo rest or miss a delivery time. That is a situation in which a driver should not be placed. Read the comments on our web page. The comments are made by drivers in early 2008, with regard to the loss of the split sleeper berth provision on October 1st, 2005.

For two and a half years, all those drivers, and many more whose comments we didn't get to, have lived with the loss of the split sleeper berth provision. After two and a half years of it, they made their comments. Two and a half years is plenty of time for them to know what they're talking about. Maybe they are more eloquent and better written than I am.

You definitely need to be enlightened. You are in the dark and appear to like living in the dark. You need to wake up and see the light. As I said, you needn't feel that you should respond any further here. Just go to the website there it is...click the link. Read what many other drivers have to say and wake up. You are asleep.

You're right. The way I worded my last post would not be the way I would word a letter to my congressman. Congratulations on catching that, Mr. Good Eyeball. Are you as talented when you're awake?



stonefly

[Rev.Vassago]

The FMCSA can say 6 is 9 and you would believe it. You definitely are not the type of driver I am hoping to find on this forum, and definitely not the type of American I'm hoping to find. So you needn't respond any further. However, you can read this if you like, so that you can realize you don't know how to read. Then upon realizing your shortcoming, you may decide to take steps to improve yourself.

You have no say over who does or does not respond to your posts.

[Orangetxguy]

The complaint is that if a driver gets sleepy during a run and has spent enough time in activities like loading, unloading, fueling, eating, etc..., there does not remain enough time to take a break without the time going against the 14 hour clock. Is that clear enough? The driver will have to make a decision. Forgo rest or miss a delivery time. That is a situation in which a driver should not be placed. Read the comments on our web page. The comments are made by drivers in early 2008, with regard to the loss of the split sleeper berth provision on October 1st, 2005.

For two and a half years, all those drivers, and many more whose comments we didn't get to, have lived with the loss of the split sleeper berth provision. After two and a half years of it, they made their comments. Two and a half years is plenty of time for them to know what they're talking about. Maybe they are more eloquent and better written than I am.

You definitely need to be enlightened. You are in the dark and appear to like living in the dark. You need to wake up and see the light. As I said, you needn't feel that you should respond any further here. Just go to the website (http://bringbacktrucking.com/), there it is...click the link. Read what many other drivers have to say and wake up. You are asleep.

You're right. The way I worded my last post would not be the way I would word a letter to my congressman. Congratulations on catching that, Mr. Good Eyeball. Are you as talented when you're awake?



stonefly

First, Loading, Unloading, and fueling/Pre-trip/post-trip inspection, all are required "On duty" functions, and all eat into the 14 and 70 hour clocks.
The Carrier is responsible for dictating whether the driver is actively engaged in the loading or unloading process. If the Carrier requires the driver to be on-duty during those activities, then the driver must log "On-duty not driving". That eats away at both clocks.

As far as the driver having to decide whether to rest or not to rest, because of having used hours loading or unloading, and making his or her delivery on-time, the only driver that this decision bothers, is the driver whom has no common sense. Only the driver whom feels obligated to drive while sleepy does so. Yes....The Shipper and Consignee should manage their business, without depending on the free labor most driver's provide them, BUT that has been the trucking industry problem for 50 years. ONLY the Carrier's can solve that issue.

The decision to rest or not lays solely with the driver. A smart driver takes the needed nap, and log's the time the way it is worked.

The driver comments on that website are mostly complaints from drivers whom can not have it "their way". They most likely are driver's whom had a stop system setup, where by they could stop and see this "Honey" or that "Honey" at the various truck stops. I don't feel sorry for that type driver. Especially the married driver that chooses to play that game. Those type rarely actually sleep during those "rest" periods.

The HOS, as it stands is marginally better than the old 15 hour work day. I do not use the 11th driving hour, unless I am short of a safe place to park. I usually drive 9.5 to 10 hours, based on my appointment times.
Would I do so if I were pulling anything other than a tank? Yup. Pulled flatbed the first couple years of the 14 hour HOS rules. I managed to make the HOS work for me just fine, and I felt more rested and less "hassle" because of it.

KCOIV was right. No cop is going to "pop" a driver for taking a nap. He will however pop a driver for logbook falsification.
"Falsification" falls mostly on the shoulders of the driver. Condoning or encouraging log falsification falls on the shoulder of the Dispatcher, Carrier Management, the Shipper, and the Consignee. YES, all those can be held accountable for a driver falsifying a logbook, based on EOBR's, and paperwork provided to the driver. That accountment only happens, after a fatality or serious injury involved accident.

The reason so many shipper's do not put time stamps on paperwork, is so that truck drivers can falsify their logs. This is coming back to bite them.

[matcat]

You are wrong. There is no split sleeper berth provision.
No, YOU are wrong. You just refuse to look at the current split sleeper revision as a split sleeper revision!

[got mud?]

You are wrong.

stonefly

you keep talking about science etc in your posts, then you of all people should know that a species (drivers in this example) needs to adapt to its ever changing environment (the HOS in this case) or die off. failure to adapt will lead to extinction. there are many who have adapted (and even prospered) to the new HOS of service and would not give up the 34 hour restart for anything. its time to face facts. the old way is gone! adapt and over come!

as for the "I can function on 4 or 5 hours sleep" theory, countless test have proven that prolonged or repeated sleep deprivation has the same effect as alcohol. so your argument sounds like the drunk saying "I drive just fine with a few beers" when the test prove otherwise!

get some sleep driver. based on reading your argument I think you need it. your showing classic signs of sleep deprivation. muddled inconsistent thoughts. in ability to reason and moodiness.

[Rev.Vassago]

get some sleep driver. based on reading your argument I think you need it. your showing classic signs of sleep deprivation. muddled inconsistent thoughts. in ability to reason and moodiness.
:lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2:

[stonefly]

No, YOU are wrong. You just refuse to look at the current split sleeper revision as a split sleeper revision!

No, matcat, you are wrong. I refuse to recognize the current split sleeper revision as a split sleeper revision because it is not a split sleeper berth provision.

You have allowed your mind to become so soft that you will recognize what the feds require you to recognize, and nothing else.



stonefly

[Rev.Vassago]

Still waiting for some sort of evidence that the federal sleep studies are wrong....

[matcat]

No, matcat, you are wrong. I refuse to recognize the current split sleeper revision as a split sleeper revision because it is not a split sleeper berth provision.

You have allowed your mind to become so soft that you will recognize what the feds require you to recognize, and nothing else.



stonefly

See that is exactly what I said, I am right, you are wrong.

It IS a split sleeper berth revision, 8 and 2, not 5 and 5, or any other variation. You want it changed, fine, write the letters, call the congressmen, do what you must, BUT stop saying it is not a split sleeper revision when it is, just because it is not setup how you like it, doesn't mean it is not still one.

[stonefly]

I have no say over who does or does not respond to my posts.

The replies I've been getting aren't helping a bit. I know what the split sleeper berth provision was, and I'm trying to have it restored as part of HOS regulations.

You live in a country that is referred to as The Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave. Yet in an occupation that has been considered one of the last bastions of personal freedom, you are content with regulations that tell you not only how much to sleep, but when to sleep. It doesn't bother you at all. Judging by what I've seen here thus far, you believe whatever the feds tell you to believe and do whatever they say without a word of protest. You are the best behaved bunch of Great Americans who ever cruised a buffet, or maybe you are just a little soft headed from eating too much. Thus far, you are definitely not what I am looking for. There is no need to respond. I can't stop you from doing so, but you're wasting your time.



The driver comments on that website are mostly complaints from drivers whom can not have it "their way". They most likely are driver's whom had a stop system setup, where by they could stop and see this "Honey" or that "Honey" at the various truck stops. I don't feel sorry for that type driver. Especially the married driver that chooses to play that game. Those type rarely actually sleep during those "rest" periods.



What about the feds' web site?

Perhaps you missed this one, Orangetxguy…


For anyone who wanted to see studies and statistics, here is something from the Missouri DOT. This is a comment they made to the feds on February 6, 2008. Here is the web page containing MoDOT's comment. It is comment # 2927. Click on the link to view MoDOT's comment on the feds' website. FMCSA (http://www.regulations.gov/fdmspublic/component/main?main=DocketDetail&d=FMCSA-2004-19608) (Sorry, the link takes you to the main page and not the MoDOT comment. The comment on the feds' site is the same as is posted here. If you care to see it on the feds site, look at the middle of the page to the right, below the second gray bar that says "documents." Click "number of results to display," up to 250. Then, go to the left of the page, and click the double arrows to the right of number "15." Wait until "15" shows up in the page box. Then click the single arrow to the left of the page block until the number in the box goes down to "12." The MoDOT comment is on this page, near the bottom, # 2927. The numbers are on the left. Look for FMCSA-2004-19608-2927. Look to the right of PUBLIC SUBMISSIONS and click the icon that looks like a small piece of paper with the top left corner folded down. That will bring up MoDOT's comment.) This is from the FMCSA comment web site for the 11 hours diving and the 34 hour restart provisions. Because there never was a specific comment period for the split sleeper berth provision, many commentors, including MoDOT, took the opportunity to give their views on the split sleeper berth problem.



Missouri Department of Transportation, Division of Motor Carrier Services

General Comment:

The Missouri Department of Transportation, Division of Motor Carrier Services partnered with Missouri's motor carrier industry to comment on the Interim Final Rule on Drivers Hours of Service.

During a recent meeting, MoDOT Motor Carrier Services, several Missouri motor carrier associations and motor carrier industry representatives resolved that both the 11-hour limit and 34-hour restart regulations should remain intact. The existing rules that allow 11 hours of driving time within a 14-hour window from the start of the workday, following 10 consecutive hours off duty (11-hour limit) and the 34 hour restart provision that allows drivers to restart weekly on-duty time limits after the driver has at least 34 consecutive hours off duty (34-hour restart) have not detrimentally impacted safety or motor carrier operations.

However, we have a primary concern with the current rule's inability to allow drivers to safely extend the 14-hour window in conjunction with a split-sleeper berth provision to increase transportation efficiency.

It is important that all parts of the rule include provisions that will make it effective, safe and efficient. The U.S. Department of Transportation's Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration and National Highway Traffic Safety Administration conducted a multiyear, nationwide study of factors that contribute to truck crashes.

The Large Truck Crash Causation Study examined reasons for serious crashes involving large trucks (trucks with a gross vehicle weight rating over 10,000 pounds). From the approximately 120,000 large truck crashes recorded between 2001 and 2003, a sampling of 963 crashes resulted in 249 fatalities and 1,654 injuries. The study further focused on driver involvement and assigned the c rashes to four critical drivers related groupings. They were driver non-performance, recognition, decision, and performance.

Of particular significance was the driver non-performance category. It included crashes in which drivers fell asleep, were disabled by a heart attack or seizure, or were physically impaired. Fatigue was only cited as a critical reason for a crash in 12 percent of the driver non-performance category.

Other associated factors were collected for each vehicle in each crash. According to the study, the top 10 factors coded for large trucks and their drivers in descending order were:
1) brake problems,
2) traffic flow interruption,
3) prescription drug use,
4) traveling too fast for conditions,
5) unfamiliarity with roadway,
6) roadway problems,
7) required to stop before crash,
8) over-the-counter drug use,
9) inadequate surveillance, and
10) driver fatigue.

Driver fatigue was the least of the associated factors.

Although these comments focus on the FMCSA's current rule making, serious consideration should be given to future rule making in order to alleviate real world problems with the HOS rules.

Flexibility in the HOS rules has always played a major role in the balance between safety and productivity. Each individual is different and obtains rest in different ways under different circumstances. Each shipment that a driver takes has a particular set of influences that affect that driver's ability to obtain rest. With so many variables and influences on the driver's itinerary, the rules should empower drivers to get the sleep they need when they need it. Unfortunately, this is the not the case with the inflexibility of the current sleeper berth provision.

The inability for drivers to select individualized periods of rest presents highway safety hazards. Drivers complying with the hours-of-service regulations are forced to stop wherever they can. As a consequence, truck drivers park on shoulders and entrance/exit ramps. In 2007, the average quarterly number of trucks parked in Missouri rest areas and lots exceeded the average number of available truck parking spaces by 19.6 percent. When designated truck parking is full drivers park anywhere they can including the entrance and exit ramps of rest areas and nearby overpasses. In 2007 over 1,150 trucks parked on ramps within 15 miles of rest areas.

In some ways, the recent changes to HOS rules have taken positive steps towards providing flexibility. However, additional adjustments can make them more conducive to the drivers' real world environment. One possibility to improve flexibility is to offer a true split sleeper berth option. One that does not put the eight hour restriction on the driver or restricts the work day, but would allow him/her to take the ten hours of rest as they need. Doing so would allow continued compliance with the rest requirements and also provide the driver with the flexibility to meet personal rest needs and conform to their itinerary. Focusing on drivers only, the Large Truck Crash Causation Study rated driver fatigue tenth among the top twenty factors attributed to poor driver performance resulting in a crash. We recognize that fatigue is still a major issue, but we do not agree with the new sleeper berth rest option that restricts the driver's ability to reduce that fatigue. Drivers are professionals and they deserve to be empowered with choices on how to obtain their rest.


I'm still looking for people who want to overturn the FMCSA's directive of October 1st, 2005, the directive that disallows clock stops for naps and split time logging of rest periods.



stonefly

[matcat]

I'm still looking for people who want to overturn the FMCSA's directive of October 1st, 2005, the directive that disallows clock stops for naps and split time logging of rest periods.
stonefly

Let us say you pull a refer, and you KNOW you got long ass waits at a shipper or receiver, you drive 4 hours, go to shipper to get loaded, take an 8 hour sleeper berth time, now you can drive a whole 7 hours! Let us assume you get to your receiver in 6 hours, and you do so, it takes 2 hours to unload, now you take a quick nap. Wow, you now still have 5 hours of drive time! Not very complicated, you where able to split it, blah blah blah blah boo hoo you can't do 5 and 5. Sure I think it would be nice to bring the old split back, and I am all for it, but recognize that there is still a split sleeper berth capacity, it might not be AS useful, but it is still useful if utilized properly.

[stonefly]

See that is exactly what I said, I am right, you are wrong.

It IS a split sleeper berth revision, 8 and 2, not 5 and 5, or any other variation. You want it changed, fine, write the letters, call the congressmen, do what you must, BUT stop saying it is not a split sleeper revision when it is, just because it is not setup how you like it, doesn't mean it is not still one.


I'm repeating myself here, but for your sake, I don't mind. The required sleep period has always been eight hours, not ten. The split you are referring to is a split of the 10 hour break period, yes. However, the required bunk time or sleep time is still 8 hours, not 10. The 2 hours in addition to the 8 hours do not have to be used for sleep. A full ten hours off duty must be taken before the 14 hour clock can be reset, but only 8 hours of that has to be sleep, not 10 hours.

The 8 hour sleep break, the only amount of sleep that has been required under HOS regulations, pre-2003, post-2003 and post 2005, until the present... 8 hours...

On January 1st, 2004, the first comprehensive rule change in many years was enforced. Because the break time had become 10 hours instead of 8, splitting the break into two blocks meant that the total of the two blocks had to add up to 10, not 8. However, only 8 of those 10 hours had to be bunk time.

It's not difficult to see why you're confused. It can be confusing until you understand it. With the new rules, where the break could still be broken into no more than two blocks, and in spite of the fact that only 8 of the 10 hours had to be sleep, the only way to legally split time was 2/8, 3/7, 4/6, 5/5, 6.5/3.5, etc...

During the period from January 1st, 2004, until October 1st, 2005, that is the way that we split our time, and any block of bunk time 2 hours or greater would stop the 14 hour clock.

After October 1st, 2005, the 8 hours bunk time could no longer be split, and no block of sleep less than 8 hours would stop the 14 hour clock. It was at this point that many drivers like myself began to feel the pinch of not being able to pull over for a rest any time we felt the need, because our 3, 4, 5, 6 hour or more sleep break no longer stopped the 14 hour clock, and the break that we felt that we needed, if taken, would mean that we would be illegal to complete our delivery on time.

True, the 10 hour break can still be split into two segments, 8 and 2, but only 8 hours stops the clock. This is particularly difficult doing back to back runs on the eastern seaboard. From a lot of experience doing those runs, I know that there is ample time to get plenty of rest, but it is difficult to find 8 consecutive hours to park the truck and sleep.

During the course of 24 hours, I might get 3 and 5, 4 and 4, 2 and 6 sometimes 5 and 5 and sometimes even 6 and 6. There were many times when I couldn't find a good paying load and I would take an entire day, getting all the sleep I want and having time to fish, if I was near a river.

It is harmful to me to spend 5 or 6 hours in a bunk and not have it count toward my sleep requirement. I'm 62 years old, in good health, with a lot of experience in the world, and when I wake up after a period of rest, feeling rejuvenated and ready to work, I want to go, not twiddle my thumbs wasting time waiting for the clock to come around. Once I wake up feeling refreshed it is impossible to go back to sleep. It is harmful to even try to do so.

I have done more adapting to unusual sleep patterns and restrictive regulations than anyone should have to, and I'm sure that I'm in for more trouble if the EOBR's become mandated. So any more drivel about "adjust or get out" will happily go in one ear and out the other because I know the one who is offering the words of wisdom is likely to have done less adapting than myself, otherwise they would not be tossing cheap advice in such a casual manner.



stonefly

[stonefly]

Let us say you pull a refer, and you KNOW you got long ass waits at a shipper or receiver, you drive 4 hours, go to shipper to get loaded, take an 8 hour sleeper berth time, now you can drive a whole 7 hours! Let us assume you get to your receiver in 6 hours, and you do so, it takes 2 hours to unload, now you take a quick nap. Wow, you now still have 5 hours of drive time! Not very complicated, you where able to split it, blah blah blah blah boo hoo you can't do 5 and 5. Sure I think it would be nice to bring the old split back, and I am all for it, but recognize that there is still a split sleeper berth capacity, it might not be AS useful, but it is still useful if utilized properly.

The example you describe is what I refer to as a "milk run," an easy one, where the HOS regs coincide nicely with drive time and loading time. I'd like to have you as my dispatcher so you could find me a lot of loads like it.

In your example, you took 8 hours bunk time at the shipper. That is not splitting your time. The 8 hour bunk requirement has never changed. Before January 1st, 2004, it was enforced as 8 hours which could be broken up as 2/6, 3/5, 4/4, etc...

Many times, because of the time factors involved, that 8 hours isn't doable. If split time were still allowed, it wouldn't matter.

After January 1st, 2004, the break time was upped to 10 hours, but only 8 of that 10 was required to be bunk time. Since splitting time could still only be done with no more than 2 blocks of time, 2/6 had to become 2/8, 3/5 had to become 3/7, etc... Most importantly for drivers like myself was the fact that any bunk time 2 hours or greater would stop the 14 hour clock. After October 1st, 2005, that clock stop for short sleep breaks was no longer allowed.

I do find some short runs where the present configuration of HOS rules doesn't hurt me. However, there are a lot of runs where they put me in a real bind, because there are not that many loads around. If a load pays good, and I can log it legal, according to the miles, I take it, not knowing what the future may hold. If I get tied up at a loading dock on a run that is 550 to 600 miles, I've got trouble. Not that I won't be able to get plenty of rest, not that 600 miles is too tough to do, but the kind of trouble no driver wants, log book trouble. In many cases it's unforeseen. You can try and talk to the broker, you can try and reschedule, but even if one can succeed in doing so, it would probably mean a lost day's work and the possibility that the broker won't use the truck anymore. I'd call on a load, and he'd say, "Sorry, it's covered."

Before anyone says, "Well, that's better than someone getting killed by a fatigued driver," remember fatigue isn't involved here. There is time for rest, time for driving, and no need to rush. Nothing unsafe about the run, it just won't fit into the tight little FMCSA box, because of an unforeseen loading delay.

Every load is different. Each one has different miles on it, different shipping delays, different receiving delays, different traffic, for example, urban versus rural, different weather, different terrain, mountains...? or flatland...? different delays in fueling, different food, add in anything unforeseeable.

A good read is the Missouri Department of Transportation's comment to the feds. Maybe you'll have read it before I post this reply.


stonefly

[stonefly]

you keep talking about science etc in your posts, then you of all people should know that a species (drivers in this example) needs to adapt to its ever changing environment (the HOS in this case) or die off. failure to adapt will lead to extinction. there are many who have adapted (and even prospered) to the new HOS of service and would not give up the 34 hour restart for anything. its time to face facts. the old way is gone! adapt and over come!

as for the "I can function on 4 or 5 hours sleep" theory, countless test have proven that prolonged or repeated sleep deprivation has the same effect as alcohol. so your argument sounds like the drunk saying "I drive just fine with a few beers" when the test prove otherwise!

get some sleep driver. based on reading your argument I think you need it. your showing classic signs of sleep deprivation. muddled inconsistent thoughts. in ability to reason and moodiness.

You're a wildman on the keyboard, but you can't read.



stonefly

[Rev.Vassago]

It is harmful to me to spend 5 or 6 hours in a bunk and not have it count toward my sleep requirement.

How so?

[Orangetxguy]

I have no say over who does or does not respond to my posts.

The replies I've been getting aren't helping a bit. I know what the split sleeper berth provision was, and I'm trying to have it restored as part of HOS regulations.

You live in a country that is referred to as The Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave. Yet in an occupation that has been considered one of the last bastions of personal freedom, you are content with regulations that tell you not only how much to sleep, but when to sleep. It doesn't bother you at all. Judging by what I've seen here thus far, you believe whatever the feds tell you to believe and do whatever they say without a word of protest. You are the best behaved bunch of Great Americans who ever cruised a buffet, or maybe you are just a little soft headed from eating too much. Thus far, you are definitely not what I am looking for. There is no need to respond. I can't stop you from doing so, but you're wasting your time.



What about the feds' web site?

Perhaps you missed this one, Orangetxguy…

In some ways, the recent changes to HOS rules have taken positive steps towards providing flexibility. However, additional adjustments can make them more conducive to the drivers' real world environment. One possibility to improve flexibility is to offer a true split sleeper berth option. One that does not put the eight hour restriction on the driver or restricts the work day, but would allow him/her to take the ten hours of rest as they need. Doing so would allow continued compliance with the rest requirements and also provide the driver with the flexibility to meet personal rest needs and conform to their itinerary. Focusing on drivers only, the Large Truck Crash Causation Study rated driver fatigue tenth among the top twenty factors attributed to poor driver performance resulting in a crash. We recognize that fatigue is still a major issue, but we do not agree with the new sleeper berth rest option that restricts the driver's ability to reduce that fatigue. Drivers are professionals and they deserve to be empowered with choices on how to obtain their rest.


I'm still looking for people who want to overturn the FMCSA's directive of October 1st, 2005, the directive that disallows clock stops for naps and split time logging of rest periods.



stonefly

Actually, no I didn't miss that piece. In fact, I read it long before you bothered to post it here.

Something you seem to not have grasped. That statement, while issued in the name's of the MoDOT Motor Carrier Services, and the several "Missouri motor carrier associations and motor carrier industry representatives" as you put it.


You do of course realize whom those "associations" and "representatives" work for, don't you? They work for Prime, O&S Trucking, R&R Trucking, YRC Worldwide, Melton Trucking, Conway Freight, and whatever other large trucking corporation is involved in their respective groups.

Regardless, the first paragraph, is the most important paragraph. It is what "Legislators" in Washington DC will pay attention to.


During a recent meeting, MoDOT Motor Carrier Services, several Missouri motor carrier associations and motor carrier industry representatives resolved that both the 11-hour limit and 34-hour restart regulations should remain intact. The existing rules that allow 11 hours of driving time within a 14-hour window from the start of the workday, following 10 consecutive hours off duty (11-hour limit) and the 34 hour restart provision that allows drivers to restart weekly on-duty time limits after the driver has at least 34 consecutive hours off duty (34-hour restart) have not detrimentally impacted safety or motor carrier operations.



I seriously doubt that the courts are going to "revisit" the HOS regulations again, even though all our favorite supporters (:roll:) are even now taking their next shot at it.

As I already said. That earlier website you refered to, is mostly the BBR's, whom want to run from truck stop to truck stop, not resting because they stop to play, complaining because the HOS does not allow them to do as they please.

I seldom hear any driver complaining about their use of the HOS. Those that do are the usual suspects. They need a shower. They need to clean the trash out of the truck. What they really need, is to just do their job and quit complaining.

I have, this year, driven from the east coast to the west coast, in under 70 hours, and did it within the hours of service, as a solo driver. I loaded one load at a chemical plant in NJ, unloaded it, at a consumer products plant in Saint Louis, reloaded at a chemical plant in Sauget IL and drove to the Los Angeles area, legally, within the HOS. After arriving in the Los Angeles area, I did a 34 hour reset, before delivering the load, at it's scheduled time.


IF you and your friends have the money to fight the groups that are "ANTI Truck Driver", knock yourself out. You will be wasting time, money and energy.


Personally, I have better things to do with life.

One other thing. Shaun Hannity and his "KoolAid" are not on my list of favorite drinks.

[got mud?]

So any more drivel about "adjust or get out" will happily go in one ear and out the other because I know the one who is offering the words of wisdom is likely to have done less adapting than myself, otherwise they would not be tossing cheap advice in such a casual manner.



stonefly


You would think that a 62 year old man would know by now that winning like a little girl doesn't fix the problem. It would also seem that you have not learned to adapt at all. You still complain and wish things where the way they used to be instead of learning how to make the new situation work to your advantage.

You have come on here asking what everyone thinks of the HOS and split sleeper birth. most have not agreed with your opinion because they are not having the problems that you seem to be having. they have adapted and changed and learned to prosper under the new HOS. your reply? that they don't know how to adapt as well as you. I believe driver that it is you who is wrong.

[stonefly]

You would think that a 62 year old man would know by now that winning like a little girl doesn't fix the problem.

...you win...I'm movin' on...



stonefly

[Fredog]

what about whining like a big girl?

[Fredog]

winning like a little girl

what did he win?

[got mud?]

what about whining like a big girl?

big girls don't cry... I believe their is even a song about that.

p.s. nice catch on the whining not winning. lol oops

[got mud?]

winning like a little girl

what did he win?

I don't know but I've never won anything. I'm kinda excited!!!

[stonefly]

This entire thread is nothing more than "waah waah we're not making enough money so we need the gubberment to help us". Learn to adapt or get out of the game.

The Patriot Act passed easily into law. All measures which infringe upon our liberty will be efficient. The removal of the split sleeper berth provision from HOS rules represents a greater loss of human rights than does the Patriot Act. The move was made without public input.

Fundamentally, the removal of the split sleeper berth provision is an unspoken government directive which may be interpreted, "We will tell you when to sleep and why." A populace that can be counted upon to comply with the provisions of such a directive will certainly provide further opportunities for a government to restrict civil liberties. Every time the government takes another step, and the rules are less reasonable, should we respond by becoming more compliant? The enslavement of a populace by any regime need not be a conspiracy. It is essentially a spiritual matter. The only thing necessary for the spirit to envelop us is for good men to do nothing.

The mandatory eight hour block of sleep...the EOBR... We truckers are one step away from having a law enforcement officer know, to the second, when we park our trucks and when we move them. We are two steps away from being being picked off at will and being fined, placed out of service, or perhaps arrested, for unlawfully choosing when to sleep and when to drive.

Every time the government takes another step, it will be done quickly and efficiently. Eventually, if good men do not interfere, Americans will have our global positions tightly monitored, pinned down to the second and to within a meter, by state of the art surveillance technology. This will happen in increments, each in the name of safety, or in the name of safeguarding our freedom. The preceding is not far fetched. If the EOBR becomes a mandated part of HOS enforcement, it is only a little farther down the road for the rest of America.



stonefly

[Rev.Vassago]

The Patriot Act passed easily into law. All measures which infringe upon our liberty will be efficient. The removal of the split sleeper berth provision from HOS rules represents a greater loss of human rights than does the Patriot Act.

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

[stonefly]

Yeah, it's a gubberment conspiracy. Break out the tin foil.







:rofl::rofl::rofl:





The enslavement of a populace by any regime need not be a conspiracy. It is essentially a spiritual matter. The only thing necessary for the spirit to envelop us is for good men to do nothing.

[Rev.Vassago]

Not being able to adapt to new regulations is not enslavement. It is laziness. If everyone were incapable of adapting, you might possibly have a valid point.

[Fredog]

Not being able to adapt to new regulations is not enslavement. It is laziness. If everyone were incapable of adapting, you might possibly have a valid point.

I prefer to have the world adapt to me

[Rev.Vassago]

So does stonefly, apparently. Too bad that only happens when you're a kid, or you're filthy rich.

[Fredog]

well, it's too late for the kid part, so I guess I'll get to work on being filthy rich, I got half of it down already:smokin: