No Luck!!!!

[Scottt]

I had a 8:00am appointment Monday morning (Today) 60 miles from my house. I get home Saturday late afternoon. I usually leave every Monday morning at 5:30am for my delivery.

Sunday I mow the grass and work in the yard and come in the house and take a nap. It is 2:00am and I can't sleep so I decide to go to my delivery destination and back in and go to bed and they will wake me up when they start unloading.

I get a block away from my delivery destination and the blue lights are behind me. DOT Officer wants to do a driver inspection.

He went through my logbook and I was on my 71st hour and I had spent 33.5hrs down at home. I tried and tried to talk him out of the "hours of service" ticket but he wasn't budging. Yeah I was going to start a new log sheet when I got there showing leaving the house at the usual time. No it never crossed my mind to add it up before I left. I have been running the same route for almost 10 months and had the times down to the minute to stay legal. My dumb mistake and I will pay.

The part I don't understand is he let me go to the delivery and said I would be out of service there until Midnight. 3:45am Monday till 12:01am Tuesday. I am guessing the 12.5hrs I logged on the prior 8th day falls off at midnight and puts me under my 70hrs??

If he put me out of service at 3:45am how do I log me delivery at 8:00am or do I have to? If out of service can you still be on duty and not driving?? Is it legal to let the truck sit for 34hrs from the out of service time and call it a restart?

[mike3fan]

you're probably right about the hours coming off at midnight. yes you can work after the 70hrs ie: unloading, but you need to log it as on duty not driving and it goes against the 70hr rule. I don't belive you can use the OOS to meet the 34hr reset.

[matcat]

you're probably right about the hours coming off at midnight. yes you can work after the 70hrs ie: unloading, but you need to log it as on duty not driving and it goes against the 70hr rule. I don't belive you can use the OOS to meet the 34hr reset.
Why not? If caught over your 11/14 the OOS is used to reset the 11/14, why can in not count for a 34 as long as you are on line 1 or 2 for 34 consecutive hours it should not matter.

Also just my opinion, that DOT officer is a ***** :) He couldn't look past a half friggin hour of time?

[Scottt]

Also just my opinion, that DOT officer is a ***** :) He couldn't look past a half friggin hour of time?

Kinda what I thought too but I was polite and told him to go through my whole log book and see that I had made a honest mistake. I usually keep 3-4 weeks of logs in my book till I get around to filing them. I run basically the same route everyweek and log the same breaks, fuel stops everyweek.

He was determined he was going to write the ticket. The ticket I couldn't believe either $25 fine, $50 court costs, $8 surcharge. I had always heard they were in the hundreds.

My truck and trailer are still backed into the dock in case he wants to check up on me tonight. Lucky I have a daughter that lives there and gave me a ride home.

Now I just need to figure out when I have a reset so I can make another round without any problems.

[matcat]

Kinda what I thought too but I was polite and told him to go through my whole log book and see that I had made a honest mistake. I usually keep 3-4 weeks of logs in my book till I get around to filing them. I run basically the same route everyweek and log the same breaks, fuel stops everyweek.

He was determined he was going to write the ticket. The ticket I couldn't believe either $25 fine, $50 court costs, $8 surcharge. I had always heard they were in the hundreds.

My truck and trailer are still backed into the dock in case he wants to check up on me tonight. Lucky I have a daughter that lives there and gave me a ride home.

Now I just need to figure out when I have a reset so I can make another round without any problems.

Yeah when I got my following too close ticket, I was pretty shocked too it only cost me $92 total.

[golfhobo]

Wow! This is a tough one. I can't WAIT to see the answer the REV gives.

Off the top of my head, and I mean I haven't analyzed the situation sufficiently....

1) The cop violated the FMCSR's by letting you drive to the delivery point, so.... who knows?

2) I THINK you can't "operate" the CMV during the unloading process, and therefore logging your delivery would violate the OOS order.... but then again, so did the COP!

3) At midnight Monday night, you will get back the 12.5 hours from 8 days back, and that will be what you have to work with.... and you will have to stay under the 70 rule all week. You will also STILL be sitting at the dock (or more practically ON THE PROPERTY.)

4) IF you chose to, or even COULD, let the truck sit for 34 hours from the OOS inception time, yes.... it would count as a 34 hour restart. That would be 1:45 pm on tuesday. How will you make your Tuesday run?

I'd like to see some recap figures for the last 8 days, along with some ON DUTY times for your average day.

Recaps are not mandatory, but you just proved why they should be completed. How could you NOT figure your hours out before leaving out a half hour before it was legal to do so?

What EXACTLY did he put on your ticket? I find it hard to believe such a small amount of fine. But, at least you didn't falsify or fail to have 7 days logs. These are the more expensive violations. I've never had a simple 70 hour rule violation, so I guess it COULD be that cheap.

[Uturn2001]

When the 34 hour reset was first introduced drivers who were out of service due to HOS violations were not allowed to start the 34 hour reset clock until they were once again legal.

That rule was later changed so that drivers who were placed OOS for HOS violations could reset if they were off duty for 34 hours.

[golfhobo]

When the 34 hour reset was first introduced drivers who were out of service due to HOS violations were not allowed to start the 34 hour reset clock until they were once again legal.

That rule was later changed so that drivers who were placed OOS for HOS violations could reset if they were off duty for 34 hours.

I agree. That IS the final resolution to the ruling which can be found by reading the FINAL RULING section of the FMCSA website.

[Rev.Vassago]

1) The cop violated the FMCSR's by letting you drive to the delivery point, so.... who knows?

No, he didn't. The officer directed the driver to what, in his determination, was the nearest safe point to serve his OOS "sentence".

2) I THINK you can't "operate" the CMV during the unloading process, and therefore logging your delivery would violate the OOS order.... but then again, so did the COP!

Why would he have to operate the CMV during the unloading process? If he has to move the truck, and it takes less than 15 minutes to do so, then it should be flagged as such.

[matcat]

Ok here is the real question! You are put OOS, sitting at a receiver or shipper, you are also an O/O. Now, let us assume you are out of food in the truck, and there is nothing nearby within walking distance, can you use personal convience considering your are OOS, taking into consideration that personal convience is not logged.

[Scottt]

Hobo

I missed my regular round this week. I picked up a load of (12 pallets.....5000lbs) plastic sprayer caps like on a windex bottle. They were refused at the receiver and wanted them returned to the vendor.

I let my truck sit from when I was put OOS till Thursday. I hope the DOT Officer drove by a few times and thought "What The Hell" LOL

I'm sitting in the brake check area on Cajon waiting to drop into Chino for a 7am delivery. Deadhead about 20 miles and pick up my usual load back to Des Moines for a Thursday delivery then take the weekend off for kids graduation.

Everything worked out good except I am $83 poorer.

[Orangetxguy]

Ok here is the real question! You are put OOS, sitting at a receiver or shipper, you are also an O/O. Now, let us assume you are out of food in the truck, and there is nothing nearby within walking distance, can you use personal convience considering your are OOS, taking into consideration that personal convience is not logged.

No. You are under dispatch when you are put OOS. You can not go off dispatch while you are under OOS, as it is considered "In Custody".

411 for Domino's or a taxi service.

[Skywalker]

First mistake:

Not making sure you had time on the book. You should have done your log and made absolutely sure you had the time to do the run without incident.

Second mistake:

After committing the first mistake, you did not sit at home for a measly 30 minutes or however much time was necessary to get the reset or pickup the needed hours.

Third mistake:

Thinking you could get away with it. If you aren't legal, you don't move, period. (OK, now everybody go nuts listing a myriad of exigencies.....)

The cop was actually a "sweetheart".... I know a couple of guys that would have literally licked his boots for a ticket that small $$ wise.... one of them paid $1015.00 and the other $895.00.... neither was "out of hours"....just forgot to change duty status, in both cases, got caught.....

He was a sweetheart for a second reason.....he actually let you move the truck when you were in an OOS situation, and shut down..... A real ***** who actually enforced the rules would have locked you down right where you were...and if it was a no parking area would have forced the issue to have a wrecker come and pull your truck to a lot.....and you'd pay that bill too.

You got lucky.....

[golfhobo]

Quote:
Originally Posted by golfhobo http://www.classadrivers.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.classadrivers.com/forum/rules-regulations-dac-oh-my/37845-no-luck.html#post449892)
1) The cop violated the FMCSR's by letting you drive to the delivery point, so.... who knows?

No, he didn't. The officer directed the driver to what, in his determination, was the nearest safe point to serve his OOS "sentence".


Yes he did. The cop may have discretion to allow him to continue that one short block to the receiver, but the receiver has a parking lot. Allowing him to "bump the dock" puts receiver employees in danger. Had one of them slipped and got crushed by the OOS driver bumping the dock, the OFFICER would be liable.


Quote:
2) I THINK you can't "operate" the CMV during the unloading process, and therefore logging your delivery would violate the OOS order.... but then again, so did the COP!

Why would he have to operate the CMV during the unloading process? If he has to move the truck, and it takes less than 15 minutes to do so, then it should be flagged as such.

AGAIN with the mystical "15 minutes!" Just because one can FLAG a time less than 15 minutes does NOT mean it is not a duty status change! You have to "account" for all time ON DUTY whether flagged or not.... and the driver could NOT BE ON DUTY while OOS!

It is highly unlikely that the receiver would start to unload him without him "checking in" and delivering his paperwork. That is being ON DUTY NOT DRIVING. You can't DO that while OOS.

And, unless the receiver had docks to spare, and could allow his truck to occupy one during the "sentence," he would have to move it. That is technically DRIVING TIME although most would log it as line 4. Either way.... regardless of whether it is 1 minute, 15 minutes, or an hour.... it is being ON DUTY and would be a violation of the OOS order.

You can't MOVE your truck, WORK on your truck, supervise the unloading of your truck, or do paperwork related to the delivery of goods while under and OOS order.

There is no "magical rule" that allows you to work OR DRIVE for 14 minutes and 59 seconds without it being ON DUTY time.... and a violation of the OOS order.

He COULD, however, sit in the passenger seat, ON the catwalk, or get in and out of his truck all he wants to during that OOS time, because.... as I have repeatedly stated..... this is NOT considered ON DUTY time.

He is not FORCED to stay OUT of his truck.... nor imprisoned in the sleeper... during an OOS order. Because (though not by his employer,) he has been RELIEVED OF DUTY and subpara (4) does NOT apply if one is not ON DUTY.

[Rev.Vassago]

Yes he did. The cop may have discretion to allow him to continue that one short block to the receiver, but the receiver has a parking lot. Allowing him to "bump the dock" puts receiver employees in danger. Had one of them slipped and got crushed by the OOS driver bumping the dock, the OFFICER would be liable.


Did the cop allow him to bump the dock, or did he violate the OOS order by doing so?

AGAIN with the mystical "15 minutes!" Just because one can FLAG a time less than 15 minutes does NOT mean it is not a duty status change! You have to "account" for all time ON DUTY whether flagged or not.... and the driver could NOT BE ON DUTY while OOS!This is untrue. The driver simply cannot operate a CMV while OOS. He can be on duty (not driving) as much as he wants.

It is highly unlikely that the receiver would start to unload him without him "checking in" and delivering his paperwork. That is being ON DUTY NOT DRIVING. You can't DO that while OOS.Wrong:

§395.13 Drivers declared out of service.

(d)(2) No driver who has been declared out of service, for failing to prepare a record of duty status, shall operate a commercial motor vehicle until the driver has been off duty for the appropriate number of consecutive hours required by this part and is in compliance with this section.

You can't MOVE your truck, WORK on your truck, supervise the unloading of your truck, or do paperwork related to the delivery of goods while under and OOS order.Wrong.

He COULD, however, sit in the passenger seat, ON the catwalk, or get in and out of his truck all he wants to during that OOS time, because.... as I have repeatedly stated..... this is NOT considered ON DUTY time.Wrong.

§395.2 Definitions.

On duty time means all time from the time a driver begins to work or is required to be in readiness to work until the time the driver is relieved from work and all responsibility for performing work. On-duty time shall include:

(4) All time, other than driving time, in or upon any commercial motor vehicle except time spent resting in a sleeper berth;

He is not FORCED to stay OUT of his truck.... nor imprisoned in the sleeper... during an OOS order. Because (though not by his employer,) he has been RELIEVED OF DUTY and subpara (4) does NOT apply if one is not ON DUTY.Wrong again. The only time one can be in or upon a CMV and not record On Duty time is when they:

1. Are using the unladen CMV for personal conveyance, or
2. Are resting in a DOT approved sleeper berth.

Golfhobo, you're batting zero tonight.

[golfhobo]

Rev, this is the biggest bunch of crap you've ever posted on this subject!

Everyone knows that "operating" a CMV includes both driving AND any other safety sensitive function that is considered as "on duty."

An OOS declaration prohibits a driver from being ON DUTY during that time.


(d)(2) No driver who has been declared out of service, for failing to prepare a record of duty status, shall operate a commercial motor vehicle until the driver has been off duty for the appropriate number of consecutive hours required by this part and is in compliance with this section.


This also applies (as I'm sure I could prove if needed) to any violation of the 14 hour rule, the 11 hour rule, etc.

ANY "operation" of the vehicle is considered ON DUTY by the definition reg (not to include sitting on the catwalk or in the passenger area) and therefore would INTERRUPT a full 10 hour OFF DUTY break mandated by the OOS criteria.

Do I need to find the discussion in the regs about the concrete mixers who could "operate" their concrete dump mechanisms without sitting in the driver's seat? They were STILL considered ON DUTY NOT DRIVING as they were "operating" the truck while not "at the controls". This allowed them to not log DRIVING TIME, but STILL required them to log ON DUTY NOT DRIVING.

Point is.... ANY operation of the vechicle or its contents.... ANY duties considered as line 4 time.... are NOT allowed during an OOS order because they interrupt the 10 hours CONSECUTIVE OOS order.

You cannot be OFF DUTY (line 1 or 2) for 10 consecutive hours and be performing ANY "duty" or "safety sensitive function." You cannot even "repeatedly" answer phone calls or qualcomm messages during a 10 hour consecutive OFF DUTY time.... which is the minimum for an OOS order.

I KNOW you don't want to hear it, but AGAIN the "spirit" IF NOT THE LETTER of the regs is clear! A driver who has exceeded the limits of drive time... or the window, OR who has failed to provide proof that he HAS NOT... will be put OOS for a minimum of 10 hours of OFF DUTY TIME to prevent ANY possible occurrence of a SAFETY VIOLATION or danger to the public.

A driver CANNOT be "on duty" in ANY capacity while under an OOS order. A company CANNOT require him to do so. And (I believe) no regulating authority (DOT officer) can violate that order for safety reasons. It is "assumed" that he may not be fully rested, and therefore dangerous.

This is the CRUX of the HOS rules! This is their "raison d'etre!" This is why they have modified the sleeper berth "split."

If a driver violates the "on duty" timeframe rules, or cannot PROVE that he hasn't, he CAN and/or WILL be placed OUT OF SERVICE for a minimum of 10 hours to make SURE that he has the required rest time. He cannot legally LOG that 10 hours consecutive OFF DUTY time if he is doing ANYTHING other than resting.

By "definition" that means he cannot perform ANY task associated with unloading, loading, servicing or moving the vehicle.


c) Responsibilities of motor carriers. (1) No motor carrier shall:
(c)(1)(i) Require or permit a driver who has been declared out of service to operate [not just DRIVE] a commercial motor vehicle until that driver may lawfully do so under the rules in this part.


(c)(1)(ii) Require a driver who has been declared out of service for failure to prepare a record of duty status to operate a commercial motor vehicle until that driver has been off duty for the appropriate number of consecutive hours required by this part and is in compliance with this section. The appropriate consecutive hours off-duty may include sleeper berth time.


Again, by definition in the regs, EVEN "repeatedly" answering his dispatcher would interrupt.... and force a restart of.... his 10 consecutive hours OFF DUTY before he can OPERATE a CMV in ANY aspect of interstate commerce.

And that INCLUDES "bumping a dock" or moving away from one, or ANY "work in the service of" his employer (which includes giving or receiving shipping documents or being in "attendance" during the loading or unloading of the freight.)

Furthermore, while it is entirely possible, though not desired, a driver CAN interrupt his 10 hour break at the instruction of his company under normal circumstances. He would just have to start it all over again (or work around the inconvenience it caused.)

But, as mentioned above, the company CANNOT.... for ANY reason.... cause him to violate an OOS order and the "penalty" of a mandated 10 hours OFF DUTY injunction while OOS.

IF, as it seems, you are trying to tell drivers on this board that they CAN, in fact, perform ANY "duties" other than driving while under an OOS order.... you are not only SADLY mistaken but unwittingly giving false information to the very people who come here for advice.

I am looking for, but have not yet found, a forum for DOT officers where I might pose some of these questions. But, I am fairly sure that THEY cannot violate FMCSA regs either. I'm sure they are given SOME discretion as to where to park the OOS drivers. I've been given some dispensation myself in this regard. But, I am confident that they would not, and COULD not, allow a driver that they are putting OOS to actually "bump a dock" before serving their OOS penalty. The risks are just too high.

And, to answer your first question, it was MY understanding that Scott was allowed by this officer to go ONE BLOCK to the PROPERTY of the receiver/shipper to serve his OOS time. He was NOT allowed (or TOLD by the officer) to "bump the dock" and THEN go OOS!

I reject your uninformed "opinon" that my statements were WRONG. You have NO MORE "authority" than I to make such statements. But, very few believe you anymore anyways! I just wish you'd learn to say that it is YOUR (mistaken) opinion that I am wrong. Why don't you "invoke" your FMCSA guru to settle this one? (as IF he could!)

OOS.... Out of Service.... means mandatory OFF DUTY for 10 consecutive hours (or more.) No line 4 (or 3) time! PERIOD! OFF THE CLOCK! OUT OF BUSINESS! END OF DISCUSSION! :hellno:

[Rev.Vassago]

Everyone knows that "operating" a CMV includes both driving AND any other safety sensitive function that is considered as "on duty."

Once again, you're wrong. If I am doing paperwork at my terminal while my truck is being serviced 20 miles away, I am not "operating" a CMV. I am, however, on duty (not driving). Operating a CMV = driving a CMV. Operating a CMV is not sitting in a warehouse dealing with paperwork.

Wow, golfhobo. That is the biggest post of completely incorrect information I've ever seen you put on this site.

The regs specifically state that one cannot operate a CMV while out of service. The regs in no way, shape, or form, regulate the amount of time you are on duty (not driving) time - ever. Ever ever. I can be on line 4 as much as I want at ANY time I want, and the regs to not control it. There is absolutely no FMCSA regulation that controls on duty (not driving) time, other than to indicate what activities are considered such. It's only when I want to move to line 3 that the regs kick in, and control whether or not I can drive the CMV.

So as I stated, you are completely and utterly wrong. Please just stop trying to dispense your incorrect advice. Thx.