The Joys of Logging

[matcat]

Ok, I have a question/poll for logging.

Now technically the regs say you must flag at the change of EVERY status change, however I know I myself do not do this if for example going from line 1 to 2, or 2 to 1, or 4 to 1, 2, or 3. Example....

Lets say our day starts at 7am, we started in the sleeper, so we go from line 2 to line 4 at 7am, do a 15 min pretrip, now lets say we go to line 3 and drive (no flag here, even though we changed status), drive until 12pm, lets say we drop to line 4 for 15 min and fuel, this would be flagged, now we go to line 1 for 30 min for lunch (not flagged as we already flagged 3 to 4 for this stop, and at 12:45 we drop down to line 3 and start driving again (also not flagged), we drive until 6pm, and change to line 2, flagging only where we are at, and finish the log off on line 3.

Now that is how I would log it, is there anyone else out there that does it differently, and if so how.

Note, I am doing research for the log program I am writing.

[Rev.Vassago]

I know DDL flags every status change.

[matcat]

I know DDL flags every status change.
Yeah it does and it makes one gawd aweful ugly remark section because of it.

[Rev.Vassago]

Yeah it does and it makes one gawd aweful ugly remark section because of it.
Yeah, but it's legal to the letter of the law regarding indicating the city and state of any duty status change. There are ways they could do it that would make it cleaner. When I ran paper logs, I "forked" my line off my remark if the location hadn't changed.

[mike3fan]

Yeah, but it's legal to the letter of the law regarding indicating the city and state of any duty status change. There are ways they could do it that would make it cleaner. When I ran paper logs, I "forked" my line off my remark if the location hadn't changed.

Yep thats how I do it, if location stays the same I only write it once and connect the changes of status.

[matcat]

That is how I will program it then, to draw a fork line.

[golfhobo]

That is how I will program it then, to draw a fork line.

Just a suggestion, Matcat. You might want to hold off until I have weighed in. WTH exactly IS a "fork line?" :lol2:

Is that anything like a "bracket?"

[matcat]

A Fork Line:
http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh314/mctruckin/forkline.gif

Sorry, I just had too :)

But now, a real fork line:
http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh314/mctruckin/forklinelog.jpg

[golfhobo]

Sorry, but that makes no sense. You're grid is all messed up. You drove on line 3 for awhile, so your location changed. You can't draw that "bracket" line on the time grid the way you did, and your "fork line" shows only ONE time element and, I guess, more than one comment.

Please delete your line of forks to bring the page back into specs.

[matcat]

Sorry, but that makes no sense. You're grid is all messed up. You drove on line 3 for awhile, so your location changed. You can't draw that "bracket" line on the time grid the way you did, and your "fork line" shows only ONE time element and, I guess, more than one comment.

Please delete your line of forks to bring the page back into specs.
It is a demonstration! Doesn't have to be right. I didn't realize I did a line 3 in there when I quickly put it together ;)

[golfhobo]

Sorry. I thought you were serious about this.

[matcat]

Sorry. I thought you were serious about this.
I am, but you decided to pick on the details instead of getting the idea.

[golfhobo]

The details are what will make it legal and usable. The "idea" of YOUR fork at ONE time point made no sense. I believe the Rev was talking about a BRACKET showing all time at one location. Yours doesn't.

BTW, there is no requirement to 'flag" the location when going from line 1 to line 2 or back.

Gotta go to work. Have fun.

[matcat]

The details are what will make it legal and usable. The "idea" of YOUR fork at ONE time point made no sense. I believe the Rev was talking about a BRACKET showing all time at one location. Yours doesn't.

BTW, there is no requirement to 'flag" the location when going from line 1 to line 2 or back.

Gotta go to work. Have fun.
Yes I do know how and what a legal bracket is, I just drew that line to do it real quick. but unless I am missing something and assuming that line 3 was a different line, that is exactly how it would look, only the bracket would be drawn as an arc below the time line grid.

[Mackman]

One good thing about local no logs were i work. When i get stop by the DOT i just tell them i punch a time clock. :thumbsup:

[Rev.Vassago]

BTW, there is no requirement to 'flag" the location when going from line 1 to line 2 or back.

Wrong again, golfhobo.

§395.8 Driver’s record of duty status.

(c) For each change of duty status (e.g., the place of reporting for work, starting to drive, on-duty not driving and where released from work), the name of the city, town or village, with State abbreviation, shall be recorded.
What you are likely mistaking for this regulation is the interpretation:

Question 1: How should a change of duty status for a short period of time be shown on the driver’s record of duty status?

Guidance: Short periods of time (less than 15 minutes) may be identified by drawing a line from the appropriate on-duty (not driving) or driving line to the remarks section and entering the amount of time, such as “6 minutes,” and the geographic location of the duty status change.


Although I'm sure you'll claim that since the "examples" given didn't include any off duty activities, they didn't "intend" for it to include those. But since you're still hung up on the word "fork" as opposed to "bracket", it's understandable that you can make that kind of error.

[DaveP]

That's what I ususally do...just sit back and say "ahh...fork it!"

[Uturn2001]

I always used brackets.

Lets say I was in the sleeper from 12 am to 7am and then off duty from 7am to 10am. In this case I would bracket everything from 12 am to 10 am on the remarks time line and draw another line at the 7 am mark. From the "long" bracket I would then draw one remarks line down to state my location.

Then when I would go on duty to do a VI I would bracket that time and make a new remark line stating location and activity.

It satisfies the requirements and makes the log look a lot nicer. Never had any problems or even negative comments from any DOT type or company safety department.

[golfhobo]

Wrong again, golfhobo.

What you are likely mistaking for this regulation is the interpretation:


Although I'm sure you'll claim that since the "examples" given didn't include any off duty activities, they didn't "intend" for it to include those. But since you're still hung up on the word "fork" as opposed to "bracket", it's understandable that you can make that kind of error.

Why the large type? I'm not blind.

First, it will come as no surprise that I DON'T agree that I am wrong.

Second, I am NOT confused by the only slightly relevant "interpretation" that you mentioned. It doesn't apply to this discussion.

Third, yes... that is EXACTLY what I am claiming as support for my interpretation of the exact reg and para you quoted.

Although they said those were "examples," and I suppose there COULD be others, they clearly didn't mention any change from line one to line 2. And there is a good reason.

It's NOT because no Off Duty activities were mentioned. Some were IMPLIED by such things as "reporting to work" and "being released from work." And the very fact that these two "changes" to or from an OFF DUTY status can occur at different locations is why they must be flagged.

First, one must agree and understand that the purpose of flagging IS to show the location of a duty status change. No explanation of the activity is required...just the location.

Second, one must understand that (unless you are teaming) it is impossible to change from line 1 to line 2 directly (or vice versa) without BEING in the same location one was at the last time one flagged going OFF DUTY (either in the sleeper or on line 1.)

Third, "bracketing" is not a requirement. One can show just a single flag through the time element that the duty status changed (along with the location,) and it is understood that one is still at that location, regardless of duty status, until another flag shows a different location...or you begin line 3 (driving.)

This is consistent with and proved by the instructions for J.J. Keller's scannable logs. Scannable logs interface directly with DOT computers. I'm sure any "failure" to follow the rules would result in a warning if not a company and/or driver violation.

[matcat]

Scannable logs interface directly with DOT computers. I'm sure any "failure" to follow the rules would result in a warning if not a company and/or driver violation.
Please provide a link with evidence of this

[golfhobo]

I always used brackets.

Lets say I was in the sleeper from 12 am to 7am and then off duty from 7am to 10am. In this case I would bracket everything from 12 am to 10 am on the remarks time line and draw another line at the 7 am mark. From the "long" bracket I would then draw one remarks line down to state my location.

Then when I would go on duty to do a VI I would bracket that time and make a new remark line stating location and activity.

It satisfies the requirements and makes the log look a lot nicer. Never had any problems or even negative comments from any DOT type or company safety department.

I'm quite sure that any DOT officer looking at your logs would have been smart enough to realize that the entire time from 12 a.m. to 10 a.m. (especially with their knowledge that 10 hours was required if ANY line 1 time was logged,) was spent at the same location as the flag you gave at 12 a.m. I'm sure he would have been pleased and satisfied with a remark flag at 10 a.m. showing the same location, when you changed your duty status from OFF DUTY to line 4.

Now.... how would you have logged the same off duty time if you had the chitz and went from sleeper to truckstop (line 1)... and back... every hour during that time? And more importantly.... how would you log the time going through the cab to get outside to BE on line 1?? :lol2:

[matcat]

I'm quite sure that any DOT officer looking at your logs would have been smart enough to realize that the entire time from 12 a.m. to 10 a.m. (especially with their knowledge that 10 hours was required if ANY line 1 time was logged,) was spent at the same location as the flag you gave at 12 a.m. I'm sure he would have been pleased and satisfied with a remark flag at 10 a.m. showing the same location, when you changed your duty status from OFF DUTY to line 4.

Now.... how would you have logged the same off duty time if you had the chitz and went from sleeper to truckstop (line 1)... and back... every hour during that time? And more importantly.... how would you log the time going through the cab to get outside to BE on line 1?? :lol2:
But what if he does not have a letter of release of duty, he technically cannot log line 1 or 2 at all, he must be on duty during the entire load! ;) ;) ;)

[Rev.Vassago]

First, one must agree and understand that the purpose of flagging IS to show the location of a duty status change. No explanation of the activity is required...just the location.

Correct. Nobody ever said anything otherwise.

Second, one must understand that (unless you are teaming) it is impossible to change from line 1 to line 2 directly (or vice versa) without BEING in the same location one was at the last time one flagged going OFF DUTY (either in the sleeper or on line 1.) You'd be wrong on that. A driver could drop off a truck at a terminal, and report to a different work location entirely upon going back to work. Upon arriving at the work location, they spend a few hours in the sleeper berth waiting to be dispatched (and before they do their PTI). They just went from line 1 to line 2 in two different cities.

You mentioned "unless you are teaming". That means it is possible to change from line 1 to line 2 without being in the same location. That is why the FMCSA has specifically said that you must note the city and state on your log for any duty status change. And yet you said before that "BTW, there is no requirement to 'flag" the location when going from line 1 to line 2 or back."

Third, "bracketing" is not a requirement. One can show just a single flag through the time element that the duty status changed (along with the location,) and it is understood that one is still at that location, regardless of duty status, until another flag shows a different location...or you begin line 3 (driving.) Again you are wrong.

§395.8 Driver’s record of duty status.

(c) For each change of duty status (e.g., the place of reporting for work, starting to drive, on-duty not driving and where released from work), the name of the city, town or village, with State abbreviation, shall be recorded.

It doesn't say "only line 3 and 4 duty status changes". It very clearly says FOR EACH CHANGE OF DUTY STATUS, THE NAME OF THE CITY, TOWN, OR VILLIAGE, WITH STATE ABBREVIATION, SHALL BE RECORDED.

[golfhobo]

Yes I do know how and what a legal bracket is, I just drew that line to do it real quick. but unless I am missing something and assuming that line 3 was a different line, that is exactly how it would look, only the bracket would be drawn as an arc below the time line grid.

Okay, getting back on topic.... I'm sorry if you thought I was being flippant. I DON'T understand that "fork" line you drew when you went off duty, but...

My point was that you cannot continue the "bracket" line on the TIMELINE below your line 3 entry. It should have stopped when you went on line 3. According to J.J. Keller's instructions for scannable logs, you don't need either a continuous timeline, OR even a remark line when you started driving from the same location you went off duty at. I realize the regs state (or may be interpreted) differently. But, J.J. Kellar has a long and successful relationship with the DOT and their computers.

I believe you need a vertical line in the TIMELINE grid for EACH change of duty status, but not a FLAG line in the comments section unless the location has changed. However.... I would always include a flagged location remark for a change of duty TO line 3 or 4 following a required OFF DUTY break (even though the location is the same.)

Going back to your original post, what you do is consistent with the examples in the J.J. Kellar scannable logbook. But, I would include a vertical line in the TIMELINE for each change of duty status. For the sake of the computer recognition, I would even include one for a change from line 1 to line 2 or back. However, I don't believe a "flag line" in the remarks section, showing the location, is required.

I ALSO don't believe it is necessary to bracket an entire 10 hour break (or 34 hour restart) on the timeline grid. Especially if you include a location flag for the time and location that you go back on duty.

NOW.... will you PLEASE edit your post and omit the LAST fork in your "dinner fork line?" I am really tired of scrolling because you overstepped the limits of the program!!! ;):hellno:

[golfhobo]

But what if he does not have a letter of release of duty, he technically cannot log line 1 or 2 at all, he must be on duty during the entire load!

I'm sure you are just kidding, and of course that is not true. I fear that without a bunch of smilies, some newbie may be confused by this response.

PLEASE EDIT YOUR FORKIN' POST!!!

[Rev.Vassago]

I believe you need a vertical line in the TIMELINE grid for EACH change of duty status, but not a FLAG line in the comments section unless the location has changed.

§395.8 Driver’s record of duty status.

(c) For each change of duty status, the name of the city, town or village, with State abbreviation, shall be recorded.

[Uturn2001]

Anyone get the impression when it comes to log books golfhobo's starts out with either:

Captain's Log, Stardate......

or

Dear Diary.......

[matcat]

Anyone get the impression when it comes to log books golfhobo's starts out with either:

Captain's Log, Stardate......

or

Dear Diary.......
Hey I like that, I am going to start using Captain's log and Stardate on all my logs!

[golfhobo]

Anyone get the impression when it comes to log books golfhobo's starts out with either:

Captain's Log, Stardate......

or

Dear Diary.......

[ I guess I didn't get the joke! ]

My logs are always clean, clear and proper! I've had NO DOT officer spend more than a minute looking them over, because they are "spiffy" enough for them to know that I am doing it right.

Well.... except that ONE guy! HE was right that I was wrong, but I was right that HE was wrong! No problem.... I carried a spare "driver" in my sleeper! :clap:

[Rev.Vassago]

I've had NO DOT officer spend more than a minute looking them over, because they are "spiffy" enough for them to know that I am doing it right.


If that's the case, you've never really had your logs checked out on the road. The neatness of the log is irrelevant to the correctness of the log.

[golfhobo]

If that's the case, you've never really had your logs checked out on the road. The neatness of the log is irrelevant to the correctness of the log.

Sure I have. I mentioned the one exception that I remembered at the time. Now that I think about it, there were three other times where officers in a POE went over them thoroughly as well. I'd forgotten about those. The one I mentioned was a roadside. The officer spent nearly an hour inputing every page of both my and my co-driver's logs. Nearly every page included an entry where I ended my driving line and went to line 1 and then line 2 at the location where we switched. One single flag. He didn't say a word about it. And believe me.... if he could have ticketed me for that as well, he would have. But many more times, they just flipped through a few pages, and handed it back to me.

[golfhobo]

§395.8 Driver’s record of duty status.

(c) For each change of duty status, the name of the city, town or village, with State abbreviation, shall be recorded.

As usual, Rev... we are arguing multiple points of contention in one thread. This started off (I believe) with me saying that no flag was needed for a change of status from line 1 to line 2 as they are BOTH considered as OFF DUTY. If you go to the FMCSA logbook examples page (link provided by GTR Silver in the "newbie question to laugh at" thread) and read the second para (I believe it was) under example #21, you will find THESE words by the FMCSA:


Because the driver then took at least 2 consecutive hours off duty, he or she accumulated another 10 hours of rest in two separate, qualifying periods totaling 10 hours.


This occurred at 9 p.m. on that example. The example clearly shows that the driver took ONE hour on line 1, immediately followed by ONE hour on line 2. Yet... the FMCSA "explained" it as the driver taking two consecutive hours OFF DUTY. THEY obviously don't consider that as a "duty status change." This is consistent with several other statements in the regs that consider S/B as OFF DUTY time. If you still have a problem with that, you might want to call and correct THEM.

The other point might be whether a flag is needed if a change of duty to line 4 or even 3 occurred at the same location as last flagged. I KNOW what the regs say. I also KNOW that J.J. Kellar doesn't show such a flag in their instructions for scannable logs. Perhaps, you would like to call THEM and correct THEM, too. (They also don't show a bracket.)

As I stated earlier, my logs have been checked thoroughly a few times by DOT officers who were LOOKING for any and all violations. It is their JOB (partly) to raise revenue for the state by ticketing us truckers for even the most minor mistake.

I will say that in most if not all cases where I have a duty status change at the same location, I use brackets. But, J.J. Kellar doesn't show that they are needed OR that a new flag is needed for each change of duty at the same location.

But, MANY times, I have flagged a stop going to line 1 for an hour or two to eat and shower, then dropped to line 2 as we left out with the other guy driving. I NEVER flag that change.... and I NEVER hear about it from the DOT or my company.

I believe this thread began with Matcat trying to simplify the program (especially the remarks section) as an improvement over the messy, anal method that DDL uses. I gave my opinion.

I believe HIS program would pass muster with Kellar, and he could probably get a job with them. YOUR method would obviously get you a job with the makers of DDL.

[Rev.Vassago]

This started off (I believe) with me saying that no flag was needed for a change of status from line 1 to line 2 as they are BOTH considered as OFF DUTY.

The regulation states nothing of the sort. It says that each duty status change requires a notation of the city and state. Changing from sleeper berth to off duty is a duty status change.

Using your "logic", no notation would be required when switching between lines 3 and 4, because lines 3 and 4 are both ON DUTY.

[matcat]

Well a former swifty, who uses scannable JJ Keller logs, and was tought by their method. Brackets never have been used, demonstrated, or other wise mentioned. Considering my entire time with swift I never had a log violation of any sort. I feel like giving some examples :)

The grid and remarks as the program I am working on displays right now:
http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh314/mctruckin/ss4.gif
That is exactly how I log in real life, except on that last flag I would not even have a comment, nor would I flag a toll either.

Compare that to this PDF which is an image of DDL JJ Keller log http://www.driversdailylog.com/_themes/sample%20logs%20for%20print%20modules/ddlkeller0803log%20.pdf
Quite honestly that DDL log gives me a headache just looking at the remarks.

[kc0iv]

Well a former swifty, who uses scannable JJ Keller logs, and was tought by their method. Brackets never have been used, demonstrated, or other wise mentioned. Considering my entire time with swift I never had a log violation of any sort. I feel like giving some examples :)

The grid and remarks as the program I am working on displays right now:
http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh314/mctruckin/ss4.gif
That is exactly how I log in real life, except on that last flag I would not even have a comment, nor would I flag a toll either.

Compare that to this PDF which is an image of DDL JJ Keller log http://www.driversdailylog.com/_themes/sample%20logs%20for%20print%20modules/ddlkeller0803log%20.pdf
Quite honestly that DDL log gives me a headache just looking at the remarks.

What gives me a headache is having to scroll back and forth because of YOUR over sized scans. Plus it appears lines of text is being covered.

If you never flagged a toll the your logs were false.

Along this same line. If this is causing so much of a hassle what is it going to be like when you get to the rules?

Don't you ever preview your post?


kc0iv

[matcat]

What gives me a headache is having to scroll back and forth because of YOUR over sized scans. Plus it appears lines of text is being covered.

If you never flagged a toll the your logs were false.

Along this same line. If this is causing so much of a hassle what is it going to be like when you get to the rules?

Don't you ever preview your post?


kc0iv
Sorry, my laptop has 1650x1250 resolution, it fits fine on my screen, actually has a few inches to the scroolbar on the right, that window is 1024x768, I keep forgetting people have lower resolutions :).

And no a line is not getting covered up, it is the way I took the screen shot, that window is not maximized on my desktop, it only takes up a piece of it, the actual programming tool I use to program it is behind it, when I cropped it I didn't crop it perfectly so some of the code is visible.

Also please state regulations that require you to log a toll. Tolls do not have to be logged! Your company might require it but it is not an FMCSA regulation of any kind.