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Thread: Very Upsetting

  1. #1
    Fozzy is offline Senior Board Member
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    Default Very Upsetting

    Gates: AP decision 'appalling' - Yahoo! News

    Defense Secretary Robert Gates is objecting “in the strongest terms” to an Associated Press decision to transmit a photograph showing a mortally wounded 21-year-old Marine in his final moments of life, calling the decision “appalling” and a breach of “common decency.”

    The AP reported that the Marine’s father had asked – in an interview and in a follow-up phone call — that the image, taken by an embedded photographer, not be published.

    The AP reported in a story that it decided to make the image public anyway because it “conveys the grimness of war and the sacrifice of young men and women fighting it.”

    The photo shows Lance Cpl. Joshua M. Bernard of New Portland, Maine, who was struck by a rocket-propelled grenade in a Taliban ambush Aug. 14 in Helmand province of southern Afghanistan, according to The AP.

    Gates wrote to Thomas Curley, AP’s president and chief executive officer. “Out of respect for his family’s wishes, I ask you in the strongest of terms to reconsider your decision. I do not make this request lightly. In one of my first public statements as Secretary of Defense, I stated that the media should not be treated as the enemy, and made it a point to thank journalists for revealing problems that need to be fixed – as was the case with Walter Reed."

    “I cannot imagine the pain and suffering Lance Corporal Bernard’s death has caused his family. Why your organization would purposefully defy the family’s wishes knowing full well that it will lead to yet more anguish is beyond me. Your lack of compassion and common sense in choosing to put this image of their maimed and stricken child on the front page of multiple American newspapers is appalling. The issue here is not law, policy or constitutional right – but judgment and common decency.”

    The four-paragraph letter concluded, “Sincerely,” then had Gates’ signature.

    The photo, first transmitted Thursday morning and repeated Friday morning, carries the warning, “EDS NOTE: GRAPHIC CONTENT.”

    The caption says: “In this photo taken Friday, Aug. 14, 2009, Lance Cpl. Joshua Bernard is tended to by fellow U.S. Marines after being hit by a rocket propelled grenade during a firefight against the Taliban in the village of Dahaneh in the Helmand Province of Afghanistan. Bernard was transported by helicopter to Camp Leatherneck where he later died of his wounds.”

    Gates’ letter was sent Thursday, after he talked to Curley by phone at about 3:30 p.m. Pentagon Press Secretary Geoff Morrell said Gates told Curley: “I am asking you to reconsider your decision to publish this graphic photograph of Lance Corporal Bernard. I am begging you to defer to the wishes of the family. This will cause them great pain.”

    Curley was “very polite and willing to listen,” and send he would reconvene his editorial team and reconsider, Morrell said. Within the hour, Curley called Morrell and said the editors had reconvened but had ultimately come to the same conclusion.

    Gates “was greatly disappointed they had not done the right thing,” Morrell said.

    The Buffalo News ran the photo on page 4, and the The (Wheeling, W.Va.) Intelligencer ran an editorial defending its decision to run the photo. Some newspapers – including the Arizona Republic, The Washington Times and the Orlando Sentinel – ran other photos from the series. Several newspaper websites – including the Akron Beacon-Journal and the St. Petersburg Times – used the photo online.

    Morrell said Gates wanted the information about his conversations released “so everyone would know how strongly he felt about the issue.”

    The Associated Press reported in a story about deliberations about that photo that “after a period of reflection,” the news service decided “to make public an image that conveys the grimness of war and the sacrifice of young men and women fighting it.

    “The image shows fellow Marines helping Bernard after he suffered severe leg injuries. He was evacuated to a field hospital where he died on the operating table,” AP said. “The picture was taken by Associated Press photographer Julie Jacobson, who accompanied Marines on the patrol and was in the midst of the ambush during which Bernard was wounded. … ‘AP journalists document world events every day. Afghanistan is no exception. We feel it is our journalistic duty to show the reality of the war there, however unpleasant and brutal that sometimes is,’ said Santiago Lyon, the director of photography for AP.

    “He said Bernard's death shows ‘his sacrifice for his country. Our story and photos report on him and his last hours respectfully and in accordance with military regulations surrounding journalists embedded with U.S. forces.’”

    The AP reported that it “waited until after Bernard's burial in Madison, Maine, on Aug. 24 to distribute its story and the pictures.”

    “An AP reporter met with his parents, allowing them to see the images,” the article says. “Bernard's father after seeing the image of his mortally wounded son said he opposed its publication, saying it was disrespectful to his son's memory. John Bernard reiterated his viewpoint in a telephone call to the AP on Wednesday. ‘We understand Mr. Bernard's anguish. We believe this image is part of the history of this war.

    The story and photos are in themselves a respectful treatment and recognition of sacrifice,’ said AP senior managing editor John Daniszewski.

    “Thursday afternoon, Secretary of Defense Robert Gates called AP President Tom Curley asking that the news organization respect the wishes of Bernard's father and not publish the photo. Curley and AP Executive Editor Kathleen Carroll said they understood this was a painful issue for Bernard's family and that they were sure that factor was being considered by the editors deciding whether or not to publish the photo, just as it had been for the AP editors who decided to distribute it.”

    The image was part of a package of stories and photos released for publication after midnight Friday. The project, called “AP Impact – Afghan – Death of a Marine,” carried a dateline of Dahaneh, Afghanistan, and was written by Alfred de Montesquiou and Julie Jacobson:

    “The U.S. patrol had a tip that Taliban fighters were lying in ambush in a pomegranate grove, and a Marine trained his weapon on the trees. Seconds later, a salvo of gunfire and rocket-propelled grenades poured out, and a grenade hit Lance Cpl. Joshua ‘Bernie’ Bernard. The Marine was about to become the next fatality in the deadliest month of the deadliest year of the Afghan war.”

    The news service also moved extensive journal entries AP photographer Julie Jacobson wrote while in Afghanistan. AP said in an advisory: “From the reporting of Alfred de Montesquiou, the photos and written journal kept by Julie Jacobson, and the TV images of cameraman Ken Teh, the AP has compiled ‘Death of a Marine,’ a 1,700 word narrative of the clash, offering vivid insights into how the battle was fought, and into Bernard's character and background. It also includes an interview with his father, an ex-Marine, who three weeks earlier had written letters complaining that the military's rules of engagement are exposing the troops in Afghanistan to undue risk.”

  2. #2
    Fozzy is offline Senior Board Member
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    I'm just too irritated and "dark" right now to comment on this really...

  3. #3
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    VitoCorleone99 is offline Senior Board Member
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    Sick.
    Reading this blog will make you smarter and/or more attractive.

    (The preceding statement has not been evaluated by the FCC.)

  4. #4
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    It just shows how low some journalists will go to push their political agenda's. Journalism has come a long way down in the last 30 years. Anything to sell a few more newspapers.

  5. #5
    RostyC is offline Senior Board Member
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    Society in general has come a long way down. We do anything to sell anything these days.

  6. #6
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    It is sad to see that the AP, once a respected source of news and information, has lowered itself to the level of tabloid journalism.

    I have sent off a letter to them informing the editors that I find what they did to be reprehensible, and informing them that I have discontinued my subscriptions to all services who use their news wire. I also sent letters to all of the journals and publications I will no longer use because of this, informing them of why I am cancelling.

    I also sent a letter to the office of the Defense Secretary supporting their position and urging them to immediately remove all embedded AP reporters from the field.

    I urge every one of you to do the same.

  7. #7
    Rev.Vassago's Avatar
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    I'm sure you'll notice quite a few posts missing from this thread. If you're interested in making personal attacks against other members of CAD, take it elsewhere. If you're interested in baiting a member of CAD who lost a loved one in the war, take it elsewhere. If you'd like to discuss the article in the OP, feel free to do so.

    Thank you.

  8. #8
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    Pictures of wounded and dead soldiers have been taken and published beginning with the civil war; http://www.archives.gov/research/civ...il-war-098.jpg

    World War 2; http://www.acepilots.com/ww2/ww2-186.jpg

    The Korean War; Korean War Educator: Memoirs - William E. Anderson

    And let's not forget Vietnam; War photos that changed history

    Crime scene photos of dead bodies are easily available with the victims identified;
    Justice Junction Judicial Injustice - OJ Simpson The Crime Scene Photo of Ron Goldman - BEWARE VERY GRAPHIC!

    Every body (no pun intended) in all of these photos was someones father, son, daughter or loved one.

    What is so special about this war, that the reality of it should not be shown to our citizens?

    Why did Bush ban any news coverage of casualties from Iraq arriving at Dover?

    Was he afraid that if people realized the actual sacrifices made by our soldiers that fewer might enlist and still fewer might continue to support the war?

    If an American soldier dies in combat, I as a citizen, have the right, indeed an obligation, to know as many details of that death as I wish. The only stipulation I would place on the preceding statement is that if the corpse is so mutilated that its' viewing could be damaging to children, it should not be published where they could see it.

    That these details may be made public is part of being a soldier. If the soldiers family, or any other person is offended, they do not have to look at the pictures.

    The brave men who have given their lives for our country did so to preserve our freedoms. Those freedoms include being entitled to a variety of opinions in all matters, great and small.

    If you have to resort to profanity to try to win an argument, you have already lost.
    The Big Engines
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    The Diesel on the Pass

    -Jack Kerouac, "Mexico City Blues"

  9. #9
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    Mr. Ford95 is online now Super Moderator Senior Board Member
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    Lights, show me where it's your "right" to see a dead soldier's body like what the AP ran. Guarantee you will never find that "right" which you speak of because it does not exist. Just because these pics have been shown since the Civil War doesn't make it right morally or your "right" to see them. Your argument that viewing these gruesome pics would cause fewer enlistment's is way wrong. There are plenty of young men and women who will still sign up. The family asked that the photo not be made public and the AP ran it anyway. The family does have a right to privacy and the AP ignored it, that is a right that does exist.

  10. #10
    GMAN's Avatar
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    There is no good reason to show a dead soldier on the front page of a newspaper. I don't want to see any of our people die in a war, but better we fight there than here. Keep in mind that there are more people who die on the streets here than in this war. There are also more people who are killed in automobile accidents than have died in this war. Some people don't think that we should not fight to defend our values or protect ourselves. Whether you agree with this war or not we are there. It is our obligation to support our troops when they are fighting for us. And you cannot support the troops by opposing the war. You either support our troops or the enemy. I choose to support our troops. There are some things worth fighting for. I have no doubt had we not taken the war to them that there would be fighting on our streets and car bombs exploding throughout our country. War is a dirty business. Most of us understand the demands and sacrifices made during a war. We don't need to see dead bodies on the cover of our newspapers or TV's. It only serves the opposition's agenda and is disrespectful of the soldier and their family.

  11. #11
    Dejanh is offline BANNED Senior Board Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMAN View Post
    There is no good reason to show a dead soldier on the front page of a newspaper. I don't want to see any of our people die in a war, but better we fight there than here.
    Fighting there doesnt have anything to do with here. Iraq especially. Afganistan we are loosing anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by GMAN View Post
    Keep in mind that there are more people who die on the streets here than in this war.
    So what, that's fine as long as its below the rate.
    File:Ushomicidesbyweapon.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
    These are figures on how many people died in the US in 2004(latest) by a weapon, around 8000 or so....
    As long as we are below that figure than its fine i guess. We still have a ways to...

    Quote Originally Posted by GMAN View Post
    There are also more people who are killed in automobile accidents than have died in this war.
    FARS Encyclopedia
    Great then, over 34000 people died last year in automobile accidents. Man we have a ways to go there as well. Great analogy !!!
    Quote Originally Posted by GMAN View Post
    Some people don't think that we should not fight to defend our values or protect ourselves.
    Our country is going broke and we cannot afford it anymore and i have given up MANY of my freedoms to this government because of this stupid wars. If my freedoms have been endangered then the terrorists have won. Iraq has nothing to do with my freedoms, Afganistan as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by GMAN View Post
    Whether you agree with this war or not we are there. It is our obligation to support our troops when they are fighting for us. And you cannot support the troops by opposing the war.
    Excuse me, BUT, what does my support for troops have to do with me opposing or supporting a war. Maybe we should attack whoever we like as well, its justified as long as our troops are there huh?
    Maybe if the government started attacking people here as well, we should support them anyways?


    Quote Originally Posted by GMAN View Post
    You either support our troops or the enemy. I choose to support our troops. There are some things worth fighting for. I have no doubt had we not taken the war to them that there would be fighting on our streets and car bombs exploding throughout our country. War is a dirty business. Most of us understand the demands and sacrifices made during a war. We don't need to see dead bodies on the cover of our newspapers or TV's. It only serves the opposition's agenda and is disrespectful of the soldier and their family.
    BEST WAY TO SUPPORT OUR TROOPS IS TO MAKE THEM COME HERE. Those who were responsible for the attacks on this country are still on the loose, Bin Laden isnt even charged with the Sep11 attacks http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/terrorists/terbinladen.htm , and even though we are there, it aint doing it no good over here, but i guess as long as our causality level is below the level of our automobile accidents we are all good.
    Last edited by Dejanh; 09-06-2009 at 05:34 AM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Ford95 View Post
    Your argument that viewing these gruesome pics would cause fewer enlistment's is way wrong.
    Immediately following 9/11, and I'm talking within DAYS, enlistment was up all over the country after we watched 3000 people die. If anything, it has the opposite effect because it angers people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev.Vassago View Post
    Immediately following 9/11, and I'm talking within DAYS, enlistment was up all over the country after we watched 3000 people die. If anything, it has the opposite effect because it angers people.
    So then it's a good thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Ford95 View Post
    Lights, show me where it's your "right" to see a dead soldier's body like what the AP ran. Guarantee you will never find that "right" which you speak of because it does not exist. Just because these pics have been shown since the Civil War doesn't make it right morally or your "right" to see them. Your argument that viewing these gruesome pics would cause fewer enlistment's is way wrong. There are plenty of young men and women who will still sign up. The family asked that the photo not be made public and the AP ran it anyway. The family does have a right to privacy and the AP ignored it, that is a right that does exist.
    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievance"

    The press doesn't merely have the right to publish this information, in a truly free and just society it has an obligation to do so. If it's true it should get published.

    Lots of people don't want lots of things published every day. The right and necessity of the public to have access to such information outweighs those wishes.
    The Big Engines
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by LightsChromeHorsepower View Post
    So then it's a good thing.
    No.


    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievance"
    Did Congress make a law saying these photos could not be published? Or was this a PRIVATE entity (the AP) that made the CHOICE to not honor the wishes of the family, and not publish the photo?

    The press doesn't merely have the right to publish this information, in a truly free and just society it has an obligation to do so. If it's true it should get published.
    That is the most ridiculous jump to a conclusion I've ever seen.

    Lots of people don't want lots of things published every day. The right and necessity of the public to have access to such information outweighs those wishes.
    The public has no right to see the dead body of a private citizen, nor does it have a necessity to see the dead body of a private citizen. If these were government photos, you would have a basis for this argument. But they aren't.

  16. #16
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    The public has no right to see the dead body of a private citizen, nor does it have a necessity to see the dead body of a private citizen. If these were government photos, you would have a basis for this argument. But they aren't.
    Apparently you left off the word US (US private citizen), as I have seen plenty of Holocaust and Hiroshima and other such war graphics to embed the horrific events in my mind forever.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by dobry4u View Post
    Apparently you left off the word US (US private citizen), as I have seen plenty of Holocaust and Hiroshima and other such war graphics to embed the horrific events in my mind forever.
    Unless they were taken by the government, we have no right to see them. The AP had a right to publish the photo - that isn't the point. The point is that they ignored the wishes of the family for no good reason.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev.Vassago View Post
    Unless they were taken by the government, we have no right to see them. The AP had a right to publish the photo - that isn't the point. The point is that they ignored the wishes of the family for no good reason.

    I understand what you are saying, that the AP went against the wishes of the family and it was very disrespectful.

    But when you start saying "rights" it takes away from the point above. We have the right to free speech , which is protected by the highest from of Law to this country, the United States Constitution. We have a right to see things from the government through the Freedom of Information Act. The AP had the right to publish the pictures protected by the US Constitution in the fact that it is free from censorship or limitations. The AP published the picture within that "right".

    The point of the OP, and over all debate was, I believe the fact the family asked them not to be published. Perhaps the AP is in error with the moral obligation bestowed upon them by the soldiers family. But the AP was within the rights of freedom of speech.

    We have the right to read/see what we wish, if it is published under the Freedom of Speech.
    Last edited by dobry4u; 09-06-2009 at 07:04 AM.

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    I believe, Rev, you are saying that we do not have the moral right to see those pictures but to deny their publication is censorship.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by dobry4u View Post
    I understand what you are saying, that the AP went against the wishes of the family and it was very disrespectful.

    But when you start saying "rights" it takes away from the point above. We have the right to free speech , which is protected by the highest from of Law to this country, the United States Constitution. We have a right to see things from the government through the Freedom of Information Act. The AP had the right to publish the pictures protected by the US Constitution in the fact that it is free from censorship or limitations. The AP published the picture within that "right".

    The point of the OP, and over all debate was, I believe the fact the family asked them not to be published. Perhaps the AP is in error with the moral obligation bestowed upon them by the soldiers family. But the AP was within the rights of freedom of speech.

    We have the right to read/see what we wish, if it is published under the Freedom of Speech.
    I used the word because LCH made the claim that we had a right and an obligation to see the picture. No such right exists. Had the AP chose to do the morally correct thing and respect the family's wishes, LCH would have no right to see the picture, and the AP would have no obligation to publish it.

    They should have respected the family and self-censored.

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