That time of year again!

[Slimland]

Well my friends it is that time of year again, that I take my bread from CAD. I wanted to let y'all know, so you won't think I am gone again.. I have noticed I am not spending hardly anytime on here.. It came a little earlier this year!

I will miss you guys and who knows I might drop in here and there.. But I have no drive to post, teach, debate or anything. My mind is constantly every where on my thoughts, and no where at all times. I am having a lot of issues I am dealing with personally, family, and financially. In which I am sure a lot of you if not most of you are going through also.. These times are draging down my spirit, and not so much as questioning, but Testing my faith. I have been bitter, more than usual. Though I would NEVER deny my savior and my God. I am not a good servant to just follow without asking questions. I do not get any answers, not like I used too.
I see the church and that means all of the churches as hypocritical, judgmental, and willing to put man under rules and laws.. I disagree with this, and do not believe that Gods will is for man Not to have absolute free will.
I find my self seeking an answer to this question, and have found none..
The question is How can a man have Absolute free will?
The church, and in some parts of the bible state, that to believe is life; But not to believe is death! How is that free will? Why cant a man believe not, and still live?
They teach that works alone cannot get you into the heavenly, but only by the blood of Christ. But then turn around and put you under rules and regulations, Imop that God did not intend..
Paul told us that everything is permissible, but not everything is profitable.. Those that teach taste not, touch not, do not. are under bondage. for anything that is done that might twinge, or activate the { I wasn't' supposed to do that} meter, then it is sin to them. Not to others.
But if we do willingly to disturb the conscious of a brother or a sister, then we have sinned against them.. This I can understand.

The church has become the embodiment of control.. They preach free will out of one side of there mouth. While out of the other they condemn for practicing free will..

I get a lot of guff, because I judge not my none believing friends.. I have been told that I support them. All because I Truly believe that God Gave us free will, and His love through Christ is unending. Therefor those who are True to there faith, and not religion are respected by me. Even though I might not agree.

People who are in witchcraft, I speak to with respect. What bothers me is someone like my ex-wife who use it for entertainment and claim something without really believing in it. They do it just for the attention.

I am not perfect! I sin continually according to the rules set by the Word of God. But in the same instance, I am in Christ so there in that aspect is no sin. why? because the Law is no more, and where there is no law, there can be no transgression. That is what John was telling us.

Those who are in Christ sin Not. And those who say they have no sin, are deceived. It is all about being honest with yourself and God. and realizing that Christ took our sin and the Law of Sin and Death. Never to see it again.. So even though we have sin of the consciouses, the Blood of Christ had took it away at the Cross.
Those in Christ have no sin-- it is not that they don't sin, it is just eternally wiped out. But not to acknowledge there sin, is to live by there own righteousness, and not resting in Christ grace and righteousness.
That gives freedome, BUT we come to the cross road and question-- What if a person doesn't believe in Christ or God, or truly believes in a diffrent faith?

This question is what and where I am troubled-- If we as men have free will, why cant we be admitted into heaven, though we might believe in something else? There lies the real essense of free will.
In short the Bible states to believe is life, and not to believe is death. If we have free will then we should be able to believe in what we wish, without the consequences of being judged into death of the soul.
Though the bible teaches that we have free reign and free spirits, as long as we believe in Christ ie God. But there is the As long part..
If we live a good life and not believe, then in the end we are judged by the old law of sin and death. NO MAN and Christ has even said so, can live up to that law. So it is death to that person..
I don't know about you, but that is not free will to me.

I look at the bible and I look at other mythology's and faiths. In there essence and foundation almost all seem to have the same foundations and stories. It is like there was this one True Faith, and after some big event or time, it had splintered down to many.. All seem to have a flood, a mosses, a savior, a Hercules {ie Samson}. So what is the Truth?

My friends I don't know, and in my spirit and mind. I fear I have crossed the line that God might have drawn of questioning, if there is one " line that is". I am troubled by all these thoughts and questions to the point of anger, and disappointment. I truly want TRUTH, I truly want God to answer me.. But He is quiet, and that just adds icing to the cake.

I see the events of end times pounding on the door, and it was foretold of this in the same Word I read. There is no denying that, and that in itself brings me back to the choice of believing or not. For there is a Truth there that cannot be denied, that I am certain. Thus I will never deny my God or Savior, for the Testimony of Jesus Christ is the Spirit of Prophecy. I will have to hold on to that for now. And maybe God will enlighten me one day in my search for Him, and His voice.

So in closing my friends, I cannot in good consciouses Teach, debate, or give godly advice anymore.. For that would make me a hypocrite, and telling someone something, when I have so many questions myself.

Be true to your faith, and Not religion. Be forgiving and faithful to your friends. Be at peace with yourselves.
DON'T be overly Righteous, Nor be Overly Evil. That is what King Solomon had told us.. For if you tip the balance--you fall. To be overly righteous means you do not need God, and to be overly Evil is the same outcome.
Evil is the Temptation to deny God. It is the Law of Sin and Death, in itself is is Holy, But when it flows through man it kills him. For we fall into the temptation, therefor sin, either against ourself, neighbors, or God.
So keep the balance.

and I did use my spell check this time.

Until then
Goodbye and may God Bless you
Slimland

[Roadhog]

Enjoy your summer break from Teaching.

It is a heavy burden. Lots of stress. I come here to get away from the stress, and cares of the world. If you stop in from time to time...try to just enjoy yourself, Slim. It's nice hearing from the real you, as well as the Teacher. You have friends here, and we like to see you happy, spreading your joy, and taking some with you.

Answers come in all forms. You will always have questions, and find the answers evolve with time. The more stress you feel, the more you seek stability, and balance. Your burdens are weighing you down, and I hope you take the time to find your joy. If you are not getting answers right now...something about you is in the way. It sounds to me like your heart, more than your mind. But that is for you to work out.

Find your joy Slim. That is a huge part of God, we forget from all the seriousness our lives consume, and what the cares of the world rob from our heart.

"Three things to remember as you get older.
1. Never pass up a bathroom.
2. Never waste an erection.
3. Never trust a fart." (Jack Nicholson in The Bucket List.)

[Trukrswyfe]

The question is How can a man have Absolute free will?

Or more rather, when does free will end and Soverniy of the Lord start. The whole election and free will are two sides of the same coin. We live this life in our well know and understood demensions, yet there are more demension than we fully know and understand. I guess I think about it in this way. Math.... What is completely impossible in a two demensional equation, is totally possible in three demensions. That being said, what seems to us impossible in 4 demensions we understand can be completely possible with God. Hopefully I didn't lose you. What Im trying to say, we don't always understand everything, or even the complicated things, We are dirt, remember?

The church, and in some parts of the bible state, that to believe is life; But not to believe is death! How is that free will? Why cant a man believe not, and still live?

Sadly Slim, Jesus asked this question in the Garden.... three times. " if there is ANY other way, take this cup from me." Answer.... No other way. That being said, The theif did not but asked to be remember by Jesus after he first mocked him. and Jesus answered..." sorry you haven't followed all my rules and regs, I'm gonna have to get back to you, what's your email address?" Kidding. You know his answer.

They teach that works alone cannot get you into the heavenly, but only by the blood of Christ. But then turn around and put you under rules and regulations, Imop that God did not intend..

I'm not sure what rules your church is teaching, but I am the church and not Isreal, I am of the gentile group,
Paul also said that if you seek to keep the Law you are now bond to follow all of it, Since I already know that to be impossible, remember the law is not evil or bad only a thermamitor to show you " how hot you are" or rather what you need help in.

The church has become the embodiment of control.. They preach free will out of one side of there mouth. While out of the other they condemn for practicing free will..

The church is you and me, not some building with walls and speakers and mics, pray for those in bondage to a building, as a member of the church, I control nothing but my own body and tongue, and have a hard enough time doing that.

This question is what and where I am troubled-- If we as men have free will, why cant we be admitted into heaven, though we might believe in something else?

I answered this up there, But I think you are having a problem with Jesus here. I didn't teach this He did, Free will to what? What is soooo good in this life that is better then Jesus? Please let me know, because I have yet to met someone or have something that is better then Him.

So what is the Truth?

Slim you sound like someone has whipserd in your ear...." did God really say that?" " Is that what God really meant?"
Those are the words of Satan.... He has been getting people to doubt God since the garden, and that old trick continues to work till this day. I guess the old saying " if it aint broke don't fix it" The Truth is God, Jesus did say it. Your choice Do you believe it, or Not? That is your choice, that is where all the splinters of Faith come from, I agree with this, Oh and I don't really like what this has to say so, Im chucking it and ... We take the truth like it's a Subway sandwich, I want that,, not this, a little of that, and don't forget to salt and pepper oil and vinegar it. I want to be able to swallow it when Im done.

My friends I don't know, and in my spirit and mind. I fear I have crossed the line that God might have drawn of questioning, if there is one " line that is". I am troubled by all these thoughts and questions to the point of anger, and disappointment. I truly want TRUTH, I truly want God to answer me.. But He is quiet, and that just adds icing to the cake.

I see the events of end times pounding on the door, and it was foretold of this in the same Word I read.

That is how you can know that God did say it and it is written, it will happen just the way he said it. Prophetic Truth.
There is no denying that, and that in itself brings me back to the choice of believing or not. For there is a Truth there that cannot be denied, that I am certain. Thus I will never deny my God or Savior, for the Testimony of Jesus Christ is the Spirit of Prophecy. I will have to hold on to that for now. And maybe God will enlighten me one day in my search for Him, and His voice.

So in closing my friends, I cannot in good consciouses Teach, debate, or give godly advice anymore.. For that would make me a hypocrite, and telling someone something, when I have so many questions myself.

It's not in teaching and debating that we show who God really is, It is in Love Agape, By this they will know that you are mine. Your love for one another. Seems like such a simple and easy statement but the truth is, more and more I realize what a difficult task it is to Love mankind, and it makes me more and more in awe of the God who not only said it but showed us how, in the layind down his life, for us. Just show His love.
Be true to your faith, and Not religion. Be forgiving and faithful to your friends. Be at peace with yourselves.
DON'T be overly Righteous, Nor be Overly Evil. That is what King Solomon had told us.. For if you tip the balance--you fall. To be overly righteous means you do not need God, and to be overly Evil is the same outcome.
Evil is the Temptation to deny God. It is the Law of Sin and Death, in itself is is Holy, But when it flows through man it kills him. For we fall into the temptation, therefor sin, either against ourself, neighbors, or God.
So keep the balance.

and I did use my spell check this time.

I didn't hope you can still read it.

[Drew10]

Slimland: Looking forward to your return and you sharing of your wisdom.

Trukswyfe: Good post..inspirational.

I too have problems with churches and finding the right one to worship and fellowship with, as I have a difficult time with some doctines and "mission statements".

This is the only thing...at the moment, I can add to the thread.

John 8:31,32 Jesus said "If you hold to my teaching you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free"
John 8:36 Jesus said "So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed"

Jesus is the truth that sets us free. He frees us from the consequences of sin, and deception by Satan. He shows us the way to eternal life with God. Jesus does not give us freedom to do what we want, but freedom to follow God.

[golfhobo]

Slim, my friend, you disappoint me. I thought you were a sold out Christian Zombie!

Now, I see that you have an independant brain, and with that comes questions. You've DONE the Math, and it just doesn't add up! Welcome to MY World!

An "all knowing" god, IF he was a loving God, wouldn't have created Lucifer KNOWING that he would fall from Grace and take half of God's creation to some place called HELL with him! It's JUST not rational!

Those who want to "defend" their belief in a HELL and Satan to use SCARE tactics to force you to be "good," have no OTHER ammunition other than this FANTASY with which to control your mind and your actions.

The Bible was written by MAN to control MANKIND! It is nothing more than pablum for the masses!

Earlier versions of mankind were heathens, and ruthlessly self absorbed! there was a NEED for a "belief system" in a Higher being to keep them in line.

GOD has alway been, and by definition can be, no MORE nor LESS than "we" as humans can imagine him to be! And ALL writings about him are therefore "suspect."

With absolutely NO hyocrisy I can say that I don't know WHAT I believe! I seriously DOUBT Darwin's theory and the scienific conclusion that "I" evolved from an amoeba! If THIS is the best science can offer.... I have wasted my grant money on them!

Likewise, the prophets and preachers of this world are speaking ONLY what they BELIEVE to be true! MAN wrote the Bible from a MAN's perspective of what a "higher intelligence" would want them to believe!

The Bible (and other books of other faiths) teach really only common sense truths necessary for the evolvement of civilization. The more "strict" laws found there, are probably what we would call "pork" in a legislation today!

The Ancient Greeks, considered the forefathers of Democratic government of their PEOPLE... had MANY "Gods" One for EACH of the elements of the Universe that they did not yet understand! As Humans evolved, and science with them, we dispelled all these "mysteries" and with them..... their Gods.

Today, there remains only ONE question unanswered.....that of life after death. And, doesn't it seem ODD, that we have only ONE God left..... the one who proclaims (by word of humans) to answer this last remaining question??

And does it make sense, that the ONE God, would condemn you to an eternity in a fiery lake for not "understanding" his plan for your life? I cannot BELIEVE so!

Slim, no offense, but you are what I call a "Jesus Freak." One who did not grow up in the knowledge and teachings of religion, and came to it late in life. As an adult, you are like a child with a new toy! Your life is changed by this "new" revelation..... that many of US have heard for years.... and you are compelled to tell us about "him" as if we never knew! I'm sorry..... NOT HAPPENING!

I really would hate to see you take a "sabbatical" from the board.... you are a fresh voice here! But, I understand your evolvement intellectually to the point that you question the propaganda that you have been selling here for some time now, and like me, choose NOT to be hypocritical in your "teachings."

Your ADAMANT claims concerning what God (if there IS one) has meant for our lives, and your "obsession" with some ancient Jewish "law" that no longer applies anyway, marks you as a "newbie" as clearly as if you had taken 10 pullups to park a Schneider truck on the fender of an O/O!!

But, you are more than welcome to post your THOUGHTS and BELIEFS about the God you claim has been so "neatly" categorized and "utilized" by the religious "leaders" of our World!

There's an old saying that.... We teach BEST what me MOST need to learn!

Just a thought..... but one borne of Science!!

[Syncrosonix]

Jesus is the truth that sets us free. He frees us from the consequences of sin, and deception by Satan. He shows us the way to eternal life with God. Jesus does not give us freedom to do what we want, but freedom to follow God.

nice joke, drew. that made my freakin' day!

[Slimland]

Enjoy your summer break from Teaching.

It is a heavy burden. Lots of stress. I come here to get away from the stress, and cares of the world. If you stop in from time to time...try to just enjoy yourself, Slim. It's nice hearing from the real you, as well as the Teacher. You have friends here, and we like to see you happy, spreading your joy, and taking some with you.

Answers come in all forms. You will always have questions, and find the answers evolve with time. The more stress you feel, the more you seek stability, and balance. Your burdens are weighing you down, and I hope you take the time to find your joy. If you are not getting answers right now...something about you is in the way. It sounds to me like your heart, more than your mind. But that is for you to work out.

Find your joy Slim. That is a huge part of God, we forget from all the seriousness our lives consume, and what the cares of the world rob from our heart.

"Three things to remember as you get older.
1. Never pass up a bathroom.
2. Never waste an erection.
3. Never trust a fart." (Jack Nicholson in The Bucket List.)

Thank you RoadHog, you are a True Friend..
and I will keep intouch by Email with Ya.

[Slimland]

Thank all of you for your responses..

Now for my Last Post for a WHile..


HOBO

Slim, my friend, you disappoint me. I thought you were a sold out Christian Zombie!

Why would you think I have changed?
All these years and talks, you still think I am just a run of the mill, robotic Christian!! I wish I was. :!:

Hobo I havn't changed one bit-- I have Always Questioned, Always fail in my own eyes..
It is like having let say 100 questions and these or this happened to be last one on the list, and the hardes to answer for any believer..

Now, I see that you have an independant brain, and with that comes questions. You've DONE the Math, and it just doesn't add up! Welcome to MY World! Rolling Eyes

Your world? You speak like I know nothing outside of my own belief!
Also speak as if I have denied my savior, and you just waiting to leap..
Well sit back there tiger, I have made no such claim. Read what I said again, this time carefuly..

Slim, no offense, but you are what I call a "Jesus Freak." One who did not grow up in the knowledge and teachings of religion, and came to it late in life. As an adult, you are like a child with a new toy! Your life is changed by this "new" revelation..... that many of US have heard for years.... and you are compelled to tell us about "him" as if we never knew! I'm sorry..... NOT HAPPENING! Rolling Eyes

Hobo-- I tried not to take offense at this, and tried to ignore it..
I must admit this eats at me..
Because You are WRONG.. Like you I grew up around Religious and Faith based famliy members, and there friends.. I was forced to go to church. etc, etc..
I rebelled, went heavily into the craft.. and without going into a lot of pointless history. I headed the calling in my heart, and STILL head it.. But I am Human, I do think, so I like a child Ask questions..
So this New Toy you think I have, has been, and will be..
As for telling you about him-- They almost 99% of them where debates, and discussions.. Which You on Your Own free will gladly joined.. To the point of asking your dad, Another one of those questions I had..

Disapointment, If anyone is disapointed it is I, and that disapointment Right now is at you..

When you Needed Prayer Hobo, whether it was for a friend or yourself. I prayed. Whether God heard me or not ???
When you where down and seeking counsel, who came to your aid here?
let see Rebel, Truckerswyfe,myself, and some others..

And since we are being honest-- I think the world of you, You are intelligent, you spell and write elouquently. You argue with confidence and clarity. BUT you are very condesending, and seem to try to carry yourself as if your higher and smarter than others..
Maybe you are!! I know you have me beaten by a long shot, in book smarts.. Maybe even in religion..
But one thing I just might be more of is Care towards others, and there afflictions that plague them.. I care to the point of not carring.. If that makes any sense, I can think of no other way to put it.. I get frustrated.

So a new Toy? No, just really a chance to enjoy some discussion with believers and NON-Believers of my Faith.. To learn what they think, and to express my own thoughts..

That is why I am disapointed-- Other than RoadHog { who by the way, knew EXACTLY what I was trying to express} the other should have been YOU.. But instead you chose this IMOP as a opertunity to jump at what you seem to express was a leaving of the Faith I stand for..
If I am wrong, then I have read your statement wrong. and my appologize.
I expected more from you.. I think I hold you to high of a standered, I hold you like I do myself.. And trust me that is high..
I get frustrated when I do not understand somethin, and I will not talk of a subject or branches of it.. when I myself do not understand it..

Your ADAMANT claims concerning what God (if there IS one) has meant for our lives, and your "obsession" with some ancient Jewish "law" that no longer applies anyway, marks you as a "newbie" as clearly as if you had taken 10 pullups to park a Schneider truck on the fender of an O/O!! Laughing

Again, you missunderstand my "obsession", and therfore look at it in a religious point of view..
It is of FAITH, Hobo-- My whole reason I beat on this issue, is what I had stated above.. The church's and Religious people, squash faith the whole time they proclaim it...
If I have Faith in what Christ did on the Cross, then that "obsession" means nothing.. for it would not be..
But what do I see, People being led by a Law, that they don't understand, and there leaders who MIGHT understand choose to keep it, for the sake like you said.. Controll.. For with Controll comes Power..

I In My personal as in person, live by no law.. For I am True to myself, and Hide nothing. this allows me to Love my neighbor.. Though at times I am kicking my self, for hurting there conscious by my freedom.

Peace Hobo.
And when I come back, I still expect to see you here my Friend.. :wink:

Your Friend
Slimland

[StevenD]

I was a High School teacher for a time, and if you think your problems are huge just put yourself in the shoes of these kids who are living in foster homes, struggling with self-identity, purpose, and the adults around them who are still struggling with legitimate questions about the realities of life, as so many do.

I had one sixteen year old female whose father continuosly called her a ***** and that she would end up in prison just like him. How do I as a teacher help this one youngun when there are (15 x 3 classes) everyday? It wears us down and compromises everything we are supposed to do; influence, grade, teach, etc.

As for my own position, I've tried many of the denominations out there and found so many to be truly flawed in some part of my conscience. So what does one do then? Detach from religion? This is a self-serving notion, since many churches offer community outreach which should be your reason for participating. The other would be for self-healing and support, which is also offered through most mainline churches.

Anyway, the point is; pick and choose. Though there is a 'god' many choose to adhere to, most organized religions teach their own interpretation of the scriptures. So what? This was taking place before Christ was born.

For me, I did my own research and settled into what I consider the most accurate regarding Biblical interpretation. Sure there are some flaws, but again, so what? As long as people are going to be there, there will be some controversy.

I am continuosly amazed by people who think there own analysis of what has been given in the Bible justifies their questioning God. Human reasoning, at its best, is far short of divine thought. There was one great theologian who said that when he finally stood before the Throne, he would ask God why there was so much injustice, pointing out atrocities such as Rwanda. If he, or you, or I, think that we could STAND in the presence of the Most Holy God, we've missed it. We've reduced the creator to someone we could have a party-discussion with. It doesn't work this way.

Anyone who has had a conversion from a life of sin can tell you the same; the presence, even just a wiff, washes you completely over and makes you bend/bow with humility. It brings tears to your eyes and cuts right to your soul, it infects you with the knowledge that love for others is far more important than your own 'problems'. If you have ever experienced this, you will never be the same. If you have not, keep searching. It is there for everyone who asks. You may have to look longer or even give up some notions (especially anger) but its just too simple to aquire.

Steve

[Roadhog]

I think that is why it is so difficult for any one of us to judge the life of another person, or their choices in life. We often have a big enough job reflecting on our own life, and what we choose. We are complex beings, and bombarded by both good and evil influences. Our particular circumstances often weigh upon our outlook and frame of mind.
Feelings of desperation can make anyone question their faith. But the core values remain. Our faith in God and in ourselves is an ongoing process. Not one of us can improve our life, without making mistakes first, and none of us completely succeed. However the mistakes add up, they are most valuable to the one living them out.

The Bible points out how mankind has made mistakes over and over, and often repeating the same mistakes over and over. Everything we can do wrong has been spelled out in Scripture. You'd think we'd learn.

The point that there are so many religions, and so much confusion, and so many horrible things being allowed to continue upon Earth, is actually proof our mortal lives are being influenced by Satan, just as God has taught. The purpose for these things are pure and simple...for us to learn. Why?...as mentioned...otherwise we will continue to make the same mistakes.

Question your faith, go to a Church of your choice. or not go...all we do in this age of man is for lessons to be remembered throughout eternity. We are living it out...life under Satan's rule...and one day, no longer far off, life under Christ's rule. We will have two mortal lives to examine and witness, and in the end given a choice to make.

That choice is called "free will." Same as the choice Lucifer was offered. You all have heard about the "Lake of Fire" at the Day of Judgment. How some people even after living under Satan's rule...then again under Christ's rule after the second resurrection...
that there will STILL be those who will not choose to live an immortal life under God and become a part of His Kingdom....and you wonder "how can that be possible?"

We are made in God's likeness, and are the only beings created to become God's children and heir's...but think about how perfect He created the Angels, and yet the most beautiful, and most powerful one Lucifer fell from grace, and he influenced 1/3 of the other Angels to go with him. We are all capable of doing no better...and if not careful, we too can become so twisted and with our 'free will" choose to go against all the teachings.

Man is fortunately a mortal being, now...and will be mortal once again in the second resurrection. (contemplate what being a mortal means) Thank God for the lessons we are living out. Thank God there will one day be an opportunity to live a mortal life also under Christ's rule, with Satan out of the picture....and thank God we will finally be allowed a choice to make...from witnessing and experiencing life completely.

Some of us live our life a certain way...like parts of the body, together we make the picture whole. All what we are living out today, and in the next mortal life, before we are granted immortal life are the lessons for Eternity. Our mortal lives will be the most valuable part of our existence. All our mistakes will one day offer us success...complete success, but success measured as a whole...the lives of all of us together. We should value each others differences for that reason.

[golfhobo]

I said:

Slim, my friend, you disappoint me. I thought you were a sold out Christian Zombie!

What happened to my SMILIE?? I KNOW I put a smilie after that! It was a JOKE!

Slim said:

Why would you think I have changed?
All these years and talks, you still think I am just a run of the mill, robotic Christian!! I wish I was. :!:

Hobo I havn't changed one bit-- I have Always Questioned, Always fail in my own eyes..
It is like having let say 100 questions and these or this happened to be last one on the list, and the hardest to answer for any believer..

I never thought you were "run of the mill." Although, sometimes your posts SOUNDED as if you were.... I KNEW you were a "questioner." Yet, you always SAID you were secure in your faith. You never ONCE allowed the possibility that it could all be an "illusion." To be honest.... I was SHOCKED to read your original post on this thread, as it sounded like you were questioning the whole picture.... for the FIRST time!

Now, I see that you have an independant brain, and with that comes questions. You've DONE the Math, and it just doesn't add up! Welcome to MY World! Rolling Eyes

Your world? You speak like I know nothing outside of my own belief!
Also speak as if I have denied my savior, and you just waiting to leap..
Well sit back there tiger, I have made no such claim. Read what I said again, this time carefuly..

I DID read what you said, at least TWICE! I was not "waiting to leap." I did not disbelieve you when you said you had NOT denied your faith. But, this was the first time you had QUESTIONED it to the point that you felt that you could no longer "preach it" until you had answered some questions.

"MY World" was a reference to that of one who is fairly well versed "in the faith," yet has spent a lifetime QUESTIONING it! It is a very PAINFUL world, yet you SEEMED to have embarked on a similar journey of doubt or questioning. This has been MY world for most of my life! "Welcome to MY world" is a catchphrase of "our" generation! I meant no harm by it. If anything, it was a type of CONDOLENCE. I was SORRY to hear that you had lost some of your PEACE in your beliefs, and might now have to suffer some of the pangs that I have had to live with all these years!

Slim, no offense, but you are what I call a "Jesus Freak." One who did not grow up in the knowledge and teachings of religion, and came to it late in life. As an adult, you are like a child with a new toy! Your life is changed by this "new" revelation..... that many of US have heard for years.... and you are compelled to tell us about "him" as if we never knew! I'm sorry..... NOT HAPPENING! Rolling Eyes

Hobo-- I tried not to take offense at this, and tried to ignore it..
I must admit this eats at me..
Because You are WRONG.. Like you I grew up around Religious and Faith based famliy members, and there friends.. I was forced to go to church. etc, etc..
I rebelled, went heavily into the craft.. and without going into a lot of pointless history. I headed the calling in my heart, and STILL head it.. But I am Human, I do think, so I like a child Ask questions..
So this New Toy you think I have, has been, and will be..

Okay, maybe I was wrong about your background. I was going ONLY on what you had told us, and I was explaining what I have seen SO MANY times from those who come to salvation late in life. I suppose I should have left that part out!

But, you DID "fill the bill!" Your posts were often right out of the "Handbook for NEWLY reborn Christians." I had no problem with that, really. It IS a fact though, that MANY of them immediately begin to exercise the Great Command, without stopping sometimes to realize that others MAY have already HEARD the Gospel. I will not go so far as to say YOU "talked down" to us, but at times it seemed as if YOU thought you were telling us the "good news" for the first time in our lives! No problem, I wouldn't have engaged or read them if I was in any way repulsed by your posts.

As for telling you about him-- They almost 99% of them were debates, and discussions.. Which You on Your Own free will gladly joined.. To the point of asking your dad, Another one of those questions I had..

Yes, you were at times willing to "debate," and always willing to "discuss." But, you always had a CONVICTION about what you were saying as IF there could be no doubt to its veracity. You spoke of concepts of faith and historical teachings as if they were all backed by solid proof! But, they just AREN'T! And NOW you are admitting to some doubts. I was not LEAPING at some chance to discredit you! I was surprised at this new revelation, and maybe a bit over eager to share MY OWN doubts and "beliefs." I had listened to YOURS for along time, with very LITTLE argument other than to occaissionaly ask you to "consider" an alternative thought or explanation.

Disapointment, If anyone is disapointed it is I, and that disapointment Right now is at you..

Again..... I was JOKING! But, it is okay that you are disappointed in me! But, you'll have to GET IN LINE behind my parents, my ex-wife, a child I failed, my GOD (if there is one) and MYSELF! Oh yeah.... now, you'll also have to get behind For4Roses! I'm not REALLY such a big AZZ!! I just PLAY one in the "illusion" many call REAL LIFE! :wink:

When you Needed Prayer Hobo, whether it was for a friend or yourself. I prayed. Whether God heard me or not ???
When you where down and seeking counsel, who came to your aid here?
let see Rebel, Truckerswyfe,myself, and some others..

Hmm.... don't remember EVER asking for prayers for myself! Not sure I believe in them. I guess I just wanted to "fit in." Or more likely, I wasn't sure they DIDN'T help..... and, if they DID, I wanted those who felt comfortable in doing so to help someone "I" had no power to help! I keep my options open. And, it made you feel good to be ASKED to help out, didn't it? Did it not also show that I RESPECTED those of you who believe in prayer?

And since we are being honest-- I think the world of you, You are intelligent, you spell and write elouquently. You argue with confidence and clarity. BUT you are very condesending, and seem to try to carry yourself as if you're higher and smarter than others..
Maybe you are!! I know you have me beaten by a long shot, in book smarts.. Maybe even in religion..

Ah, Honesty! Such a wonderful thing! It is so refreshing when people drop their pretentions and tell me what they REALLY think of me! And YOU are not the FIRST! :wink: Would it surprise you to know that I already KNOW this is how I "come off" most of the time? Do you think I wouldn't have CHANGED that by now, if it were possible? Truth is.... I don't actually FEEL superior! I just have my opinions, and what I believe to be some amount of "knowledge." If my argument is sometimes "superior," it may ONLY be a superior ARGUMENT!! At one time, I intended to be a lawyer. Can I help it if I have the ability to present my case as if it were RIGHT?? If I were defending your life in court, wouldn't you WANT me to have a superior argument? I'm sorry, but I just don't know how to put out an inferior position and HOPE no one tears me apart! Let's say, for the sake of argument, that GOD gave me this brain, and ALL the thoughts within it. Am I to DOUBT that those thoughts are TRUE and correct?

I grew up with a Preacher for a father. EVERY Sunday he stood in the pulpit and told people what HE felt they needed to hear. He even admitted that he was often stepping on their toes. But, that was HIS "calling." Was he being "condescending?" Probably. But, the people didn't mind. Of course..... this board, and people in general, are not "my flock!" I am no preacher or shepherd. Therefore, you take offense to what I say.

Did Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, or any of our OTHER founding fathers not speak with CONVICTION when addressing their fellow citizens? But, THEY were never questioned or accused of being "condescending" because THEY were men of import! But, who am I? NO ONE! Just another Hobo on the web! At least, that is YOUR perception, and therefore the basis of your opinion of me. So be it.

But one thing I just might be more of is Care towards others, and there afflictions that plague them.. I care to the point of not carring.. If that makes any sense, I can think of no other way to put it.. I get frustrated.

And that IS a "gift." I guess I couldn't be blessed with EVERYTHING!

That is why I am disapointed-- Other than RoadHog { who by the way, knew EXACTLY what I was trying to express} the other should have been YOU.. But instead you chose this IMOP as a opertunity to jump at what you seem to express was a leaving of the Faith I stand for..
If I am wrong, then I have read your statement wrong. and I apologize.

I am flattered. And, I believe... you ARE wrong. But, that is not your fault. I wasn't very clear in my intentions! I did not think you had LEFT your faith. I was just surprised to hear so much DOUBT coming from you.... to the point that you felt you should no longer "teach."

I expected more from you.. I think I hold you to high of a standered, I hold you like I do myself.. And trust me that is high..
I get frustrated when I do not understand somethin, and I will not talk of a subject or branches of it.. when I myself do not understand it..

I am sorry to have disappointed you! But, perhaps it is not wise to hold me higher than I can reach! I, too.... am only human! I have "gifts" and I have failings! My written words rarely convey the humor with which they were conceived. I should be flogged severely! :wink:

Your ADAMANT claims concerning what God (if there IS one) has meant for our lives, and your "obsession" with some ancient Jewish "law" that no longer applies anyway, marks you as a "newbie" as clearly as if you had taken 10 pullups to park a Schneider truck on the fender of an O/O!! Laughing

Again, you missunderstand my "obsession", and therfore look at it in a religious point of view..
It is of FAITH, Hobo-- My whole reason I beat on this issue, is what I had stated above.. The church's and Religious people, squash faith the whole time they proclaim it...
If I have Faith in what Christ did on the Cross, then that "obsession" means nothing.. for it would not be..
But what do I see, People being led by a Law, that they don't understand, and there leaders who MIGHT understand choose to keep it, for the sake like you said.. Controll.. For with Controll comes Power..

You must live amongst a Jewish enclave. I don't see so many people obsessed with the OLD "jewish law." But then, I live amongst Southern Baptists! And they have their OWN form of "fire and brimstone!" :wink:
My only point was that you seem to spend hours researching and discussing ANCIENT jewish law, I guess so that you can understand the "new law" which is something that SHOULD be accepted on FAITH. Unless you are trying to convert the Jews, you are discussing stuff only a Seminary student would even concern himself with. Other than a small minority, America is a gentile nation.

I In My personal as in person, live by no law.. For I am True to myself, and Hide nothing. this allows me to Love my neighbor.. Though at times I am kicking my self, for hurting there conscious by my freedom.

Might I suggest you read the book "Illusions" by Richard S. Bach?? (Jonathan Livingston Seagull fame.) Perhaps, it would give you a better idea of where "I" am coming from.

Peace Hobo.
And when I come back, I still expect to see you here my Friend.. :wink:
Your Friend
Slimland

I would like nothing better! Meanwhile..... I will work on losing some weight off my AZZ!!

Hobo

:wink:

[golfhobo]

Steve said:

I was a High School teacher for a time, and if you think your problems are huge just put yourself in the shoes of these kids who are living in foster homes, struggling with self-identity, purpose, and the adults around them who are still struggling with legitimate questions about the realities of life, as so many do.

First, let me say.... thank YOU for your "service!" We often say that today for eveyone who has served in the military, but we fail to give the same respect and appreciation to those who hold our future in their hands! I am only half-way kidding when I say, it must at times be just as hard to complete your mission while dodging "spitballs" as it is for them while dodging bullets! :wink:

My mother was a product of foster homes. She was taken from her mother, who tried to DROWN her in the sink, after seeing her wonderful father die of a heart attack in front of them at the age of 32. Her mother was a drunk, and abused her. She has NEVER gotten over her childhood! Today's parents, are sometimes WORSE! (not ALL of them!)

As for my own position, I've tried many of the denominations out there and found so many to be truly flawed in some part of my conscience. So what does one do then? Detach from religion?

Yes, many of us do. Detach... I mean. I find it interesting that you let YOUR conscience be the litmus test for what you are being taught. Yet, you say....

I am continuosly amazed by people who think there own analysis of what has been given in the Bible justifies their questioning God.

I'm not looking for a fight here. Just maybe MORE explanation. And do you mean Questioning GOD?? Or questioning the EXISTENCE of god? There IS a difference. The former could be considered "egocentric" and near blasphemy.... while the latter might just be an expression of "free will."

Human reasoning, at its best, is far short of divine thought.

IS it?? If God made me in HIS image, and "IF" I have a true communion WITH him.... is it not possible for me to access SOME level of "divine thought?" Or must I be relegated to the base of Human Reasoning?

God wishes me "the peace that passes understanding" does he not? Then, why is it so impossible that I might achieve that peace THROUGH "Understanding" of Divine thought?

There was one great theologian who said that when he finally stood before the Throne, he would ask God why there was so much injustice, pointing out atrocities such as Rwanda. If he, or you, or I, think that we could STAND in the presence of the Most Holy God, we've missed it. We've reduced the creator to someone we could have a party-discussion with. It doesn't work this way.

I don't see it this way. MAN is the one who has written for years that they are "unworthy" and shall KNEEL in his divine presence! GOD through Jesus asked us to "walk with him, talk with him. Have a PERSONAL relationship with him! Granted, that might should be a relationship of the "grasshopper" and the "Sage." But, the grasshopper cannot learn the "walk of the master" while on his KNEES!

Anyone who has had a conversion from a life of sin can tell you the same; the presence, even just a wiff, washes you completely over and makes you bend/bow with humility.

I guess this would depend on how "bad" you had been! And, I don't want to hijack the post, but this can easily be explained by Psychology as a "transfer of guilt." The mind is a powerful entity. Within it is the power to change your outlook, even relieve depression, by a simple synapse (or drug) that makes you FEEL that you are "forgiven" and therefore are free from guilt and self-loathing. Look at what happened in Guyanna with those koolaid drinkers. The mind can believe in ANYTHING that stimulates the pleasure centers.

It brings tears to your eyes and cuts right to your soul, it infects you with the knowledge that love for others is far more important than your own 'problems'. If you have ever experienced this, you will never be the same. If you have not, keep searching. It is there for everyone who asks. You may have to look longer or even give up some notions (especially anger) but its just too simple to aquire.

So does a good indoctrination in LIBERAL thinking! Are you saying that "love for others" is not achievable without a conversion under theology? It is said that, "greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his life for another." Jesus certainly exhibited this.... but, so do many in our armed forces.... some of whom have never accepted "salvation." How is this possible? Without a "conversion" from a life of sin, how is it that they equal the highest of Christian principles?

Could it be that Mankind IS capable of "divine thought?" Could it be that there is GOOD and EVIL throughout Mankind.... but, that it is NOT necessarily the purview and property of some imaginary God? Something attainable ONLY by adhering to the "practices" of some organized religion?

Now.... before you accuse me of questioning God.... let me point out that I am only questioning the DEFINITION of God, and the teachings of organized religion!

You are clearly a "learned man." In the old days, at least, you would have HAD to have some understanding of psychology to be a teacher. And, I'm sure you HAVE. Can you rationaly dispute my theories with some "certain" scientific proof that such enlightenment can come ONLY from bending your knee in servitude to some Deity? Or is it more likely that the majority of humankind is programmed to BE as sheep, or more accurately, like the masses that bowed in the presence of Alexander the Great?

What MAKES a simple MAN like Alexander a KING among men? Is it that he has the audacity to STAND in the presence of what even HE perceives to be GOD?? Or is it that the common man does NOT?

Don't bother calling me a "condescending AZZ!" That has been covered!

Like Slim, I am simply a man with questions. I don't claim to have all the answers, nor do I expect YOU to! I just like a good debate! And to achieve that, I must make us BOTH think! You are NOT "required" to participate. If you chose not to, I will understand. But, if you choose to.... please give me YOUR thoughts, and not those of some organized religion. I've heard all they have to say.

Hobo

[geomon]

I just stumbled onto this thread...Slim good luck to you. Check out the book at the bottom of this note.

Many of these questions posed by Slim/Hobo etc can’t be answered by us and we won’t know until this life ends and we find out what lies behind the curtain.

….now

…what lies beyond that curtain is the BIG QUESTION of our lives. And you can boil everything down to three basic beliefs:
1) Nothing lies beyond…atheists
2) A soulless energy/state of being….eastern beliefs
3) An actual being who created all that there is including us…western beliefs

The next question is what of those three basic beliefs best supports the basic questions of our lives such as:

1) Why is there pain, suffering, goodness, beauty, courage, savagery etc.
2) Why do bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people?
3) What best explains the beauty of a sunset, the emotions that art or music can produce, the origins of the universe, laughter…and so on.

For me…the best explanation is #3: that there is a God and there is no other way to let us live except by offering us the free will to choose to believe in Him or not. If He didn’t offer us complete and uncompromised free will, then we’d simply be manipulated puppets. For example, if you gave your daughter $10 and then proceeded to tell her how she could spend it; did you really “give” it to her?

And lastly…for me…. I believe that God really won’t be all that interested in which religion I slapped a name to but He will be more interested in did I live my life as best I could? Did I love God? And did I treat my neighbor as I would myself? All other questions/arguments I will leave for after I cross that curtain because I can’t answer them now. Observing and trying to understand God we are as ants trying to understand Quantum Physics…can’t be done!!

Those are my own thoughts tho…you are free to choose one of the three beliefs above. Good luck in each of our searches….the one fact is that each one of us will eventually hit that curtain…and then what?

There are great books for exploring those thoughts. Here is one:

LONG JOURNEY HOME..by OS GUINNESS
(from Amazon.com) This book is a very fine distillation of wisdom applied to the "big questions" of life's meaning and purpose. Os Guinness takes the reader on a tour of how the world's major religions and some of its greatest thinkers have wrestled with questions of ultimate significance. How does death and human suffering affect our sense of hope and longing for purpose and meaning for our lives? What is the place of gratitude for life's goodness? What principles are worth living and dying for? There are no prepackaged answers to these questions, of course. But whether or not we are to believe there is an answer and what road we take to lead us there are crucial steps in the journey upon which we are all embarked. Whether we conscious of it or not, life is taking us somewhere. When we get to the end, will we look back on our journey with satisfaction and fulfillment or with a sense of shame and loss? For those who feel that an unexamined life is not worth living, this book is provides much to consider. Philosophy and Religion are not an intellectual game we can play with detachment and control over the outcome. The questions are bigger than we are and the Answer must be bigger still. The implications of the search for your life's meaning, if you follow it honestly enough, will end up handling you rather than you handling them. Are you ready? Then read on...

[wot i life]

יכול אלוהים להיות עמך הידיד שלי

[wot i life]

Double post...

[Twilight Flyer]

I just came across this post...lots of well, thought-out comments across the thread. Though I do find them very interesting, I don't typically get heavily involved in religious threads. However, on the off-chance that you are still reading the board, Slim, I'll add my thoughts to your comments, as well as to some others.

That gives freedome, BUT we come to the cross road and question-- What if a person doesn't believe in Christ or God, or truly believes in a diffrent faith?

What makes you think that an all-loving and all-knowing God does not have everything covered? What makes you think that someone who has not had the opportunity to learn of Him - be it a tiny baby, an aborigine tribesman, or someone who is born and dies under the harsh decree of fanatical Islam or the vast emptiness of aethiesm, will not have the opportunity to learn of Him and accept Him, after they have passed?

I, for one, refuse to limit God to what mankind can comprehend. We can not even comprehend what an eternity is like, let alone God's ability to ensure that everyone will have the opportunity to know Him and accept Him.

This question is what and where I am troubled-- If we as men have free will, why cant we be admitted into heaven, though we might believe in something else? There lies the real essense of free will.

Everyone has free will. But there are consequences to any action taken through free will. Still, how far do those consequences span? Will the newly arrived Islamic immigrant who shakes his head "No" at Christianity be punished the same as the ex-Christian who once believed and then later turned his back on Christ? Will the newborn baby that dies at birth and never gets the opportunity to learn of Christ, be consigned straight to hell?

The Bible teaches that there is but one unforgiveable sin. To accept Christ and then deny him is the one path that you cannot turn back from. That tells me that God has a plan for everyone, for every situation, and for every time. While the ex-Christian has no way back from his unforgiveable sin, the Islamic Immigrant and the newborn baby will be given their opportunity. How and when that works is anyone's guess. But to believe that we can understand how that works, is to limit God. To believe that God has to work according to our miniscule understanding, is to fall in love with the word of man.

In short the Bible states to believe is life, and not to believe is death. If we have free will then we should be able to believe in what we wish, without the consequences of being judged into death of the soul.

Why should there be no consequences? If there were no consequences, no opposition in life, then there would be no progression, either spiritual or temporal. We could all do anything we wanted and every one of us would be saved. Wait a second - that sounds a lot like what Lucifer wanted. No pain, no guilt, no sadness...by the same token, there would be no pleasure, no pride, no joy.

We are defined by the lives we live. We take with us into the next life, those experiences that define us and the intelligence we gain in this life. We gain this because of free will and because there are consequences and opposition in life. Ask yourself a question, Slim. Would you give up the joy you felt when you held your newborn child? Would give up the ecstacy of your first night with your wife? Would you give up the pride you feel at watching your child excel in something?

In all things, there must be opposition. Without it, you would have nothing; you would be nothing. The same holds true with believing in God. If it were easy to believe in Him, if it were hard-wired into us to always follow His commandments, there would be no spiritual progression. We would be perfect puppets, nothing more, and there would be no joy in returning to Him.

My friends I don't know, and in my spirit and mind. I fear I have crossed the line that God might have drawn of questioning, if there is one " line that is". I am troubled by all these thoughts and questions to the point of anger, and disappointment. I truly want TRUTH, I truly want God to answer me.. But He is quiet, and that just adds icing to the cake.

Nothing wrong with being troubled and nothing wrong with asking God questions. I, too, get angry when I see the horrible things that happen in the world. I get angry when I see how mankind treats one another. We are a depraved race of beings and despite all of our perceived "intelligence", we are little more than vicious animals anymore with better ways to hurt, maim, and kill each other. But all this must come to pass. If you believe in the Second Coming, then you know that all this has simply been foretold and prophecy is coming to pass on a rapid basis. It is at it must be, as Satan wages his war on us and claims many of us for his own. It is the seperating of the wheat from the chaff. And it all leads to the return of Christ.

Life is not meant to be easy; neither is a person's spiritual growth. Once again, in all things there must be opposition. If you are asking questions, then you are attempting to learn. That, in itself, is a good thing. But remember that many will be swept up in the words of man and thus, many will be lead astray. So temper what you read and learn, with prayer. If you are sincere, you'll get your answers. God works in mysterious ways. Always has, always will. And when we have passed, we'll understand that it was for our own good.

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Hobo

An "all knowing" god, IF he was a loving God, wouldn't have created Lucifer KNOWING that he would fall from Grace and take half of God's creation to some place called HELL with him! It's JUST not rational!

It's not rational to you, because you believe there should be no opposition. But as I stated above, without opposition, there is nothing. I'm certain God knew that Lucifer would choose to stand against Him, just as He knew that it would be Lucifer's choice to make. Free will started in Heaven and has always been part of the plan. And free will is what enables us to grow as mortal beings on this planet we live on. In my opinion, that's a marvelous plan. Yes, it hurts sometimes and sometimes hurts so bad we don't believe we can go on. Trust me, I've been there. But the opposite of that - the joy, the ecstacy, the zest for life...man, there is simply nothing that compares. And that's something that can never be taken from me.

And does it make sense, that the ONE God, would condemn you to an eternity in a fiery lake for not "understanding" his plan for your life? I cannot BELIEVE so!

People are not condemned for not understanding His plan. People are condemned when they accept it and understand it one day, but then turn around and by the words of man are led astray and deny it the next day. Once again, do you think the newborn child or the aborigine or the forever birth-to-death-close-minded aethiest had the chance to understand His plan? The obvious answer is no. The not so obvious answer (to us) is, what does God do about these people? To believe that God simply washes His hands of these people is to believe that God must be limited by what our puny mortal minds can comprehend. Again, the only thing God is bound to is His promise to us that we can return to live with Him if we simply humble ourselves and believe in Him. That tells me that everyone gets that chance at one time or another. Whether it's in this life or before we stand in judgement, everyone will have that opportunity to know Him and accept Him.

I really would hate to see you take a "sabbatical" from the board.... you are a fresh voice here! But, I understand your evolvement intellectually to the point that you question the propaganda that you have been selling here for some time now, and like me, choose NOT to be hypocritical in your "teachings."

Denying Christ is hardly what I would call "evolving intellectually". But that's not where Slim is. He's asking questions and I'm not sure I see a problem with questions. Questions are what helps us grow.

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StevenD

I am continuosly amazed by people who think there own analysis of what has been given in the Bible justifies their questioning God. Human reasoning, at its best, is far short of divine thought.

That's very well put. I have a friend who I consider having a pretty good head on his shoulders. He's got a good family, is/was a faithful believer, and had a well-rooted spiritual foundation for life. However, he just up and suddenly decided a couple of months ago that he doesn't believe anymore. I was stunned and am still stunned. We haven't spoken about it, but I am continually scratching my head at the sudden u-turn he's made in his life. If human reason were divine thought, we'd have it made. However, more times than not, human reasoning is downright wierd.

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Roadhog

Our mortal lives will be the most valuable part of our existence.

Amen to that. What we learn here, the progression we make intellectually and spiritually, we take with us. The parable of the talents is a perfect example of that.

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Hobo

You never ONCE allowed the possibility that it could all be an "illusion."

Yeah, that's satan's best gig...convincing people that he's just an "illusion."

MY World" was a reference to that of one who is fairly well versed "in the faith," yet has spent a lifetime QUESTIONING it! It is a very PAINFUL world, yet you SEEMED to have embarked on a similar journey of doubt or questioning. This has been MY world for most of my life! "

Hobo, have you ever stopped to wonder if the reason that it's painful is because God is trying to tell you something and you are refusing to listen? You've claimed many times that you've asked questions and wondered about all things spiritual. What makes you think you haven't been given an answer over and over again and aren't hearing it?

Again..... I was JOKING! But, it is okay that you are disappointed in me! But, you'll have to GET IN LINE behind my parents, my ex-wife, a child I failed, my GOD (if there is one) and MYSELF!

Those are your words, not mine. My words are: How loud does He have to yell? :?

Like Slim, I am simply a man with questions.

Granted, but I would be willing to bet that He's been answering you for a long, long time. Maybe it's time to bend the knee and listen? Just sayin'.

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In the end, going back to Slim, I've always enjoyed your posts here on ClassA. I especially enjoyed the news items and signs-of-the-times that you posted. While I may not always agree with the alleged prophetic slant of some of those pieces, I always found it interesting to see other people's takes.

Good luck with your journey of discovery. But during that walk, keep one thing in mind. Learning of Christ and God's plan is an unending process and sometimes, the teacher must take time out from teaching in order to be taught.

[golfhobo]

Hmm..... I THOUGHT I had posted this earlier, and thought T/F had somehow "zapped" it! In retrospect, I believe I tabled it to my Notepad to answer a PM..... after TRYING to post it for something like 15 minutes and who KNOWS how many clicks of the submit button! It was to come right after Geomon's post.

One note to T/F (for now...) Yes.... I have a good idea how long eternity is! It is just about one second longer than the interminable amount of time I spend on EACH and EVERY post hitting the SUBMIT button!!

But, I know.....it is SUPPOSED to happen to Hobo!!

............


Geomon said:

Many of these questions posed by Slim/Hobo etc can’t be answered by us and we won’t know until this life ends and we find out what lies behind the curtain.

That may or may NOT be true. In recent years, there have been MANY "reports" by those who have more or less "died" and been brought back through modern medical resuscitation miracles.... or advancements. It is ENTIRELY possible that, before WE die, this question MIGHT be answered, and then.... depending on the answer.... we will either have dispelled the need for that one final God of the unknown... OR validated the belief in and existence OF Him! Wouldn't THAT be ironic.... if SCIENCE ends up proving/validating RELIGION??

….now

…what lies beyond that curtain is the BIG QUESTION of our lives. And you can boil everything down to three basic beliefs:
1) Nothing lies beyond…atheists
2) A soulless energy/state of being….eastern beliefs
3) An actual being who created all that there is including us…western beliefs

Actually, in #2.... Eastern religions DO believe in a soul that IS a part of "energy" that can be neither created nor destroyed. And, #3.... MANY/most Eastern beliefs believe in some form of God or "creator." I think you would have done better to just classify them as Atheist, Spiritual, and Religious. But, I don't mean to "pick." :wink:

The next question is what of those three basic beliefs best supports the basic questions of our lives such as:

1) Why is there pain, suffering, goodness, beauty, courage, savagery etc.
2) Why do bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people?
3) What best explains the beauty of a sunset, the emotions that art or music can produce, the origins of the universe, laughter…and so on.

I SEE your point, and often wonder about it as well. However, the Eastern Religions/beliefs have an answer that is AT LEAST as plausible as the Religionists. Perhaps, you haven't studied them as much? Regardless...

For me…the best explanation is #3: that there is a God and there is no other way to let us live except by offering us the free will to choose to believe in Him or not. If He didn’t offer us complete and uncompromised free will, then we’d simply be manipulated puppets. For example, if you gave your daughter $10 and then proceeded to tell her how she could spend it; did you really “give” it to her?

And THEREIN lies our question/belief/problem. What good is Free Will "IF" the prize behind door #2 is a fiery lake of damnation?? :shock:

Your argument about "your daughter" is exactly what we are saying! How FREE is the choice if you tell her how to spend it.... AND tell her that if she spends it WRONGLY.... she will burn in HELL??

IF he gave me the choice between choosing HIM and living in Heavenly glory... and choosing against Him and just returning to DUST.... then THAT would be somewhat a free choice! But, when you offer someone the FREE WILL to choose heaven or a fierly lake of HELL and PHYSICAL pain and torture for Eternity..... you ARE 'manipulating' them!! Or, at least.... you are PUNISHING them eternally for not exercising their "free will" in a manner that conforms to YOUR desires! What is FREE about that??

Personally.... I could LIVE with being a puppet as long as I DIDN'T have to fear the consequences of failure! What we DON'T know, can't hurt us! God says he wants his creation to LOVE and CHOOSE him!! Fine..... But, only a DESPOT is so "self-absorbed" that he won't TOLERATE those who don't!! Of course.... it is ENTIRELY possible that there IS such a God.... and he NEVER said ANY of that bad stuff!! Maybe, only MAN said that there would be bad consequences if we didn't follow THEIR beliefs in God... i.e: "Religion" is a control mechanism devised by MAN. And GOD really IS a benevolent creator! If THIS is the case.... He should FIRE all of his "salesmen"..... and the Eastern Beliefs are more accurate and palatible!! AND.... they offer MORE "free will."

And lastly…for me…. I believe that God really won’t be all that interested in which religion I slapped a name to but He will be more interested in did I live my life as best I could? Did I love God? And did I treat my neighbor as I would myself? All other questions/arguments I will leave for after I cross that curtain because I can’t answer them now.

Herein lies the rub! You won't CROSS that "curtain" in the RIGHT direction, or even HAVE a chance to learn the answers, if you choose the WRONG door! You will go directly to HELL. You "may not" pass GO!! NO $200 for YOU! ..... At least.... this is the teachings of Western religions!

According to the Bible (Man's Word .... IMHO,) you cannot REACH Heaven through your "Christian actions" such as how you treated your neighbor, etc!! You get out of Hell.... ONLY by "accepting" a belief in a Creator, and forgoing ALL "sins" as someone has labeled them for you! In other words, by exercising your FREE WILL in only ONE direction! You get out of HEll, by choosing the ONE door that doesn't cost you your life! What choice is THAT?

Observing and trying to understand God we are as ants trying to understand Quantum Physics…can’t be done!!

Speak for yourself. I not only am NOT an ANT.... I DO understand to some degree Quantum Physics!

Those are my own thoughts tho…you are free to choose one of the three beliefs above. Good luck in each of our searches….the one fact is that each one of us will eventually hit that curtain…and then what?

Or possibly to believe/choose something ELSE. There IS... or may be.... not just ONE FACT! Is it a fact that our physical bodies will one day expire? Sure. But, whether we face any "curtain" afterwards, is not certain. I understand your beliefs, admire your eloquent defense of them, and appreciate your willingness not to judge me. I also "note" your somewhat closed mind, and the "strings" that have manipulated it.

I WILL check out the book you suggested. Will you do the same for me? Read "Illusions" by Richard S. Bach. I'm not saying it is some kind of Bible. I am saying it will open your mind to other possibilities. It MAY not register with you the way it did with me. So.... toss it out, if you so choose (with your TRUE "free will.") But, read it, please. It is very short!

I HOPE I have not offended you, Geomon. I'm aware of your beliefs, and have NO desire to offend anyone of any persuasion here! Please do not think that , because I argue for the prosecution, I do not understand, or even sympathize with the defense! I would think that with "free will" comes FREE thought! I am all about THAT!

Peace to you and all the World.

Hobo

[geomon]

Hobo…

First of all no worries mate, you have not offended me in the slightest. Each and every one of us has the right to our own personal beliefs and it is good to challenge them or have them challenged, to drill down on why you believe what you believe…else it might be labeled “blind faith” as opposed to the old group Blind Faith . It is great that you think these thoughts as so many just go thru the paces of life and never think on why we are here. From the book I suggested: “ Socrates stated in his trial that “the unexamined life is not worth living”…today’s challenge is to lead an examined life in an unexamining age”. While what Socrates stated may be a “bit strong”, these are all good thoughts to occupy one’s mind.

And…I’ll write that book down and pick it up to read mostly to understand a set of beliefs that I have studied but only lightly. Thanks for the suggestion. And regarding Eastern beliefs….there are some that do believe in gods (don’t Hindus have many of them?). The point I was trying to make was to differentiate between a personal God and the impersonal energy or gods that most Eastern faiths believe in. As opposed to living on as a distinct soul, you are absorbed into that energy, (or Nirvana) which is an impersonal one. You leave your “self” behind. That is radically different from Western beliefs. And I will absolutely NOT state that one belief is true and another false. Rather we all have to sort thru and best answer for ourselves what basic belief best answers the questions of life. Of course I like to think that there is an unseen hand helping me.

And regarding free choice and hell/damnation….First of all, I believe that there is no flaming pit called hell. I pulled this quote from a book (Letters from a Skeptic)…”Hell in Greek is gehenna, and gehenna was a valley outside Jerusalem which was used as the city’s major dump. It is the ultimate destiny of people who freely choose to live a life God never intended for them”. To me…hell is not an eternity of screaming fire and brimstone but could better be described as that place, absent from God. Perhaps another way of looking at it is: heaven is me saying to God “Your will be done” and hell is God saying “you’re will be done”. There are many descriptions of hell and many questions as well. This is just one man’s view (mine)

Anyway…nuff for now.

[golfhobo]

Geomon said:

Hobo…

First of all no worries mate, you have not offended me in the slightest. Each and every one of us has the right to our own personal beliefs and it is good to challenge them or have them challenged, to drill down on why you believe what you believe…else it might be labeled “blind faith” as opposed to the old group Blind Faith .

Well, I remember you getting a bit frustrated with Fozzy at one time. Of course, he didn't have my "genteel" nature! :wink:

It is great that you think these thoughts as so many just go thru the paces of life and never think on why we are here. From the book I suggested: “ Socrates stated in his trial that “the unexamined life is not worth living”…today’s challenge is to lead an examined life in an unexamining age”. While what Socrates stated may be a “bit strong”, these are all good thoughts to occupy one’s mind.

I absolutely agree! But, in a way.... THEY are the blessed! Ignorance is bliss, ya know! As I have said, a lifetime of questioning HAS brought me a measure of torture! But, I will NOT go through life believing what only ONE "religion" teaches me as if I were a sheep! Some may think I am ONLY about destroying their faith.... but, I am on a journey of my own.... for some measure of "divine thought" as Steve called it.

To be honest.... ..... I didn't actually NOTICE what book you had suggested! (you're lead up to it was a bit long, and I was in a hurry.) But..... I absolutely planned to go back to that post to get the title and check it out!! REALLY! And now that I know it is THAT book.... I've always LOVED that line by Socrates.... I will DEFINITELY take the time to read it! I was going to do so anyway, SOLELY on your recommendation! I knew you wouldn't steer us wrong! :wink:

And…I’ll write that book down and pick it up to read mostly to understand a set of beliefs that I have studied but only lightly. Thanks for the suggestion.

Well..... it ain't Socrates! Just a very interesting read that makes you think! Here's a quote I have hanging on my wall: "Every person, All the events of your life... are there because YOU have drawn them there! What you choose to DO with them.... is up to YOU!"

Some people say, "things happen for a reason." This book, and I say it is more likely that WE are or cause the 'reason.' I have read, and given away, about a dozen copies of it so far..... but, it has been awhile. I need to read it again!

And regarding Eastern beliefs….there are some that do believe in gods (don’t Hindus have many of them?). The point I was trying to make was to differentiate between a personal God and the impersonal energy or gods that most Eastern faiths believe in. As opposed to living on as a distinct soul, you are absorbed into that energy, (or Nirvana) which is an impersonal one. You leave your “self” behind. That is radically different from Western beliefs.

No REAL argument here.... my point was that most/many Eastern Religions DO have a name for one or more Gods, and share many of our own "parables" and "lessons." Most of them believe in some form of Heaven. "Soulless" sounded more like "mysticism," which is different. But, I understand and am intrigued by your distinction that "they" do not necessarily maintain their SELVES in the process! And, of course, you are absolutely correct. :wink:

And I will absolutely NOT state that one belief is true and another false. Rather we all have to sort thru and best answer for ourselves what basic belief best answers the questions of life. Of course I like to think that there is an unseen hand helping me.

Don't we ALL? I absolutely refuse to believe that millions of Buddhist Monks are destined to HELL because they either don't KNOW about, or in Twilight's words, DO know about and yet reject the Western belief in God and Jesus! [He actually says "accepts and then denies" but, that is NOT what is taught in Western (Protestant or Catholic) religions.]

And regarding free choice and hell/damnation….First of all, I believe that there is no flaming pit called hell.... To me…hell is not an eternity of screaming fire and brimstone but could better be described as that place, absent from God.

Unfortunately, MOST Western religions DO believe in HELL as a fiery lake of torture for all Eternity! If it were ONLY a "place absent of God," then that would fit my earlier argument of free will. We could choose an eternity of JOY.... or one of VOID. THAT, to me would be "free will" without PUNISHMENT and TORTURE. Wouldn't it be IRONIC if "I" missed out on that place of joy.... because of my refusal to accept the "judgement of a God that would send me to a fiery lake"..... only to find out that I was only going to end up as dust?! As Paul Newman said in "Absence of Malice"...... "who do I SEE about that?" This is why I consider being raised in the Church (and particularly as a Preacher's Son) as a form of "religious abuse!"

Perhaps another way of looking at it is: heaven is me saying to God “Your will be done” and hell is God saying “you’re will be done”. There are many descriptions of hell and many questions as well. This is just one man’s view (mine)

That's an interesting way of looking at it! You feel like coming over and arguing the point with my father who's been believing and preaching Fire and Brimstone for over 50 years now?

Nice discussion..... thanks!

Hobo

[Twilight Flyer]

I absolutely refuse to believe that millions of Buddhist Monks are destined to HELL because they either don't KNOW about, or in Twilight's words, DO know about and yet reject the Western belief in God and Jesus! [He actually says "accepts and then denies" but, that is NOT what is taught in Western (Protestant or Catholic) religions.]

I don't really care what RELIGION teaches about it. I care what the scriptures teach. There is but one unforgivable sin....to accept and then later deny Christ. Those millions of Buddhist Monks may have heard of Christ, but never accepted Him. Just like the Aborigines, the pygmy tribes of Africa, the Indians of the Amazon, the Iraqi and other Arabs born and raised under Islamic rule, etc.

If I truly believed that God consigned all these souls to hell, I'd have the same questions that you do. But I don't believe that at all. I know God is loving and caring and I know that His fondest wish is that we all return to Him. I know it, because of that pesky faith issue that seems to rankle unbelievers. I have my faith, Hobo. I found my faith through trials and tribulations, through prayer, through His hand in my life. I found it because I listened when He was answering me.

It's up to you to find yours. Best of luck in that journey. The answers are there...you just have to be willing to listen and open-minded enough to understand that those answers aren't always what you want them to be.