Obeying the speed limit, etc. (Religious Overtones)

[chapchap70]

Cutting to the chase, I was at a bible study the other night and we were discussing legalism/libertine which both are considered wrong.

I relayed an event where I was driving years ago behind a person who was going 30 in a 30. Since I was churched basically my whole life, I figured this guy was probably a Christian since most people don't care about stuff like the speed limit. I thought to myself "legalist".

After honest reflection, the only "bad" thing this person did was to be in my way and I was the only one that was wrong.

I asked if they considered strictly obeying the speed limit to be legalism. (I guess I know how to stir the pot. :twisted: )

The elder leading the study thinks that it is more important to move with the flow of traffic so people do not do crazy things to get around you. He says that it is easy for conservative minded people to fall into the trap of do's and don'ts but we are supposed to be "in the spirit" and obey the spirit of the law.

What do you (especially those who would not set foot in a church except for a wedding/funeral) think of both lines of reasoning?

[terrylamar]

Cutting to the chase, I was at a bible study the other night and we were discussing legalism/libertine which both are considered wrong.

I relayed an event where I was driving years ago behind a person who was going 30 in a 30. Since I was churched basically my whole life, I figured this guy was probably a Christian since most people don't care about stuff like the speed limit. I thought to myself "legalist".

After honest reflection, the only "bad" thing this person did was to be in my way and I was the only one that was wrong.

I asked if they considered strictly obeying the speed limit to be legalism. (I guess I know how to stir the pot. :twisted: )

The elder leading the study thinks that it is more important to move with the flow of traffic so people do not do crazy things to get around you. He says that it is easy for conservative minded people to fall into the trap of do's and don'ts but we are supposed to be "in the spirit" and obey the spirit of the law.

What do you (especially those who would not set foot in a church except for a wedding/funeral) think of both lines of reasoning?

Lemmings go with the flow, look what happens to them. :shock:

[Roadhog]

This is one of those topics that has so many variables...ie;weather, line of sight, location, time of day or night, congestion, pedestrian activity, any driveways, and the list of variables is huge.

My speed or behavior would be reflecting what I felt was safe given the circumstances. I might either speed up, or slow down...and overall, I would hope to not be taking risks or drawing any attendtion from the Cops, considering all the drugs and weapons I have in the trunk.

[Useless]

Can't you read a road sign, chapchap70???

The sign clearly read: "Thou Shalt Not Drive Over 30MPH"!!

What's the matter with you??

[Fozzy]

I have never understood the big debate about the speed limit thing. I have used this in discussion before its funny to see some of them squirm when the topic of obeying the law and morality/religion comes up... :shock:

[chapchap70]

I didn't say I agreed with the Elder.

My reason for relating the story that happened when I was much younger was to point to the place when I realized there was no wiggle room and I changed my ways. I stated my position and there was really nothing he could say. It seems to me that trying to argue for "go with the flow" in this one has to reason like an eight year old. It is actually very sad.

[golfhobo]

Lemmings go with the flow, look what happens to them.

Deer and Rabbits stop in the road and stare at you like YOU are not supposed to be there.

Look what happens to THEM. :wink:

[glasman2]

Lemmings go with the flow, look what happens to them.

Deer and Rabbits stop in the road and stare at you like YOU are not supposed to be there.

Look what happens to THEM. :wink:

golfhobo runs over them :twisted:

[Useless]

Cutting to the chase, I was at a bible study the other night and we were discussing legalism/libertine which both are considered wrong.

I relayed an event where I was driving years ago behind a person who was going 30 in a 30. Since I was churched basically my whole life, I figured this guy was probably a Christian since most people don't care about stuff like the speed limit. I thought to myself "legalist".

I asked if they considered strictly obeying the speed limit to be legalism. (I guess I know how to stir the pot. :twisted: )

The elder leading the study thinks that it is more important to move with the flow of traffic so people do not do crazy things to get around you. He says that it is easy for conservative minded people to fall into the trap of do's and don'ts but we are supposed to be "in the spirit" and obey the spirit of the law.

What do you (especially those who would not set foot in a church except for a wedding/funeral) think of both lines of reasoning?

Well, I'm not a Christian, don't even remember the last time I was attended a church worship service, and would be considered by many to be a "lost soul", so I'd like to take a shot at this, if I may.

First off, let me say that in my opinion, I think that your church elder is probably closer to the truth on this issue.

I don't see this as a Legalism vs. Libertine issue. I see it as a safety and a compliance issue. Speed limits exist for a reason. Now, some speed limits do seem unreasonably low, and yes, I have also encountered situations where they seemed a little higher than they should be.

If a person is driving 30MPH in a 30MPH speed zone, there could be a number of reasons why he/she has chosen to do that, and none of them would never have anything to do with heaven, hell, or eternal damnation, or eternal salvation. The driver has simply chosen to comply with the law.

There could be many factors governing his decision, such as age, health conditions, slower reflexes, lack of familiarity with the locale, or, he simply does not believe in violating the speed limit. There may be countless other reasons as well.

Something else that caught my attention was that when you observed him driving the speed limit, for some reason, you immediately concluded that he was a Christian. Why??

There have been many times that I have stopped to help someone stranded on the side of the road or the highway. There have been many times that I've been able to help others out; it's just something that I feel called upon to do.

Many times, I've had people thank me, and tell me that I was "a good Christian". (Personally, I have absolutely no desire to be called a Christian.) Now, do Christians have some type of lock or stronghold on complying with the law, or stopping to change a flat tire for an elderly man, or a young woman with children in the car, or reaching out to help others?? And if they do, then why didn't one of them stop to offer help?? Bhuddists, Jews, Hindus, Pagans, or New Age Spiritualists don't believe in helping others??? Somehow, that just does not make sense to me!!???

As for the "Good Christians", San Antonio is home to Cornerstone Baptist Church, pastored by no less than The Reverend John Hagee; a strong Christian Fundamentalist whose sermons are broadcasted all over the nation, and to different parts of the world. Now, once I had the occasion of driving around the Cornerstone Church parking lot on a Sunday. I quietly giggled to myself as I observed the number of radar detectors sitting on the dashboards of different vehicles. Fundamentalists though they may be, thumping their Bibles, singing their hymns, and yet, they need a radar detector to keep from getting a speeding ticket??

Something else about him leaves me perplexed as well; Pastor Hagee receives a salary of over one million dollars a year, wears a Rolex, and lives in one of the most prestigious nieghborhoods in San Antonio. Why do I have a problem with that??

I don't attend Cornerstone, don't support them financially, and his congregation is largely very affluent. Whatever deal he has worked out with them is really none of my business, it it??

At the same time, I find it rather ironic that these people gather in the posh and hallowed halls to worship a man who was truly the King of kings, and yet he lived the life of a carpenter, and hung out with a group of fishermen. Yet, here we have a mortal man, leader of his congregation, living the life of a king.

Must say, it strikes me as rather strange!!

I remember driving on Loop 1604 in San Antonio one day, doing 75 in the right hand lane, and having cars blast right past me. One of them had a bumper sticker which read "I Have Decided To Follow Jesus". I remember thinking to myself, "Man, I didn't know that Jesus drove that fast!!"

As for the issue of leagalism, I see it as a way for Religious leaders to control the masses. I once had a very fundamentalist Christian man explain to me that I could not go to Heaven because I had long hair, and that my wife couldn't go to Heaven because she had short hair. Strange thing was, he couldn't support his family, his gas was shut off due to non payment, leaving his family without heat in an old, poorly insulated home, (BTW, this was in the Winter) and he had no food for his children.

Now, I may be amongst the great unwashed, but when I went down to pay his gas bill, and get it turned back on so that his family could have some heat, and when my wife went to the grocery to by his family some food, unwashed heathens though we may be, these folks were perfectly willing to accept our help!!

Go Figure!!

[golfhobo]

AMEN!! Useless!!!

Just a few points.

When a person (who most likely IS of the Christian persuasion) calls you a good Christian, it is not an insult, or exclusatory of others. A Buddhist might call you a "good Buddhist." And so on.

The definition of a Christian is NOT the same as a Protestant or even a "believer." IT means Christ Like. Christ was known for helping the downtrodden or those in need. In fact, putting THEIR needs ahead of his own. Whether Jesus (Christ) even existed or not, is not the question. The WORD is defined by the stories/fables of what a compassionate man Jesus was!

To be called a good Christian, is to be commended for being Christ Like, or "helpful" and "concerned" about others. It's just a WORD... with a definition.... and not a LABEL.

Christians and other religious folk, do NOT have a "lock" on Morality. And not even CHRIST expects them to. So... if they have a radar detector, they are not breaking any "Christian" laws.

Jesus said, "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's... and to God that which is His."

THIS, in fact, is the FIRST and fundamental "separation clause" between government and religion!

Jesus was NOT saying that one MUST pay tribute to the "Crown" so much as he was saying to "deal with them" as you feel obligated or oppressed to do. But, to give GOD the tribute HE asks. In fact, the response was to a question about whether one should have to make "offerings" to God, when he is already being "taxed" by the government.

I find NO real mandate in the Bible for God's people to necessarily obey ALL the laws of the government, except as they are reasonable and not against God's laws.

So... whether you LIKE it or not.... when you and your wife, with the wrong length of hair, gave "comfort" and "aid" to another of God's children... you were being "christian" or Christ Like. No obligation to join a church or nothing.... not a Label.... just an "adjective."

I, too, took SOME offense to ChapChap's "unintentional" slight that ONLY Christians cared about being law abiding. But... like he said... he'd been "indoctrinated" all his life by those who had their own agenda.

I think the "Elder" was, at least in this case, a wise man. He knew that BOTH legalism and Libertinism, to extremes, can cause a lack of harmony in the World.

Not ALL on-ramps have this sign, and not ALL drivers education programs teach it, but "I" was taught that when merging onto a freeway, one should ALWAYS merge "at the speed of traffic!" NOT ONCE have I ever heard that one should merge at a "specific" speed limit! This is for the EXPRESS intent of avoiding fatal accidents.

I've seen cops sitting in speed zones.... even construction zones.... watching traffic go by at 5-15 mph over the posted limit. If they wanted to do something about it... they WOULD. But, they are ONLY concerned that the flow of traffic is equal, safe, and NOT erratic!

I laughed my butt off at the bumper sticker you told us about!! The circumstances WERE hilarious. But... it made me think of my father, the BEST Christian and Preacher I've EVER known!

With HIS sense of humor, he'd have had one that added the phrase, "And I WISH he'd speed up!"

ChapChap said he'd just attended a bible class that said BOTH Legalism and Libertinism were "bad." I tend to agree with that! And I think Jesus would, too! But, as it applies to strict (or not) adherence to man's laws... I'm not so sure he has that strong of an opinion. Man's laws are often corrupted by man's prejudices and personal agenda.

God is concerned about us following HIS laws!

The ONLY "god" law I saw in question here, was ChapChap's "intolerance" or "agitation" with another human for doing what HE thought was right. No offense intended to ChapChap. We are ALL guilty of such egocentricity. (I'm one of the worst!) And THAT is what is against God's laws.

[Useless]

I didn't say I agreed with the Elder.

My reason for relating the story that happened when I was much younger was to point to the place when I realized

there was no wiggle room

and I changed my ways. I stated my position and there was really nothing he could say. It seems to me that trying to argue for "go with the flow" in this one has to reason like an eight year old. It is actually very sad.

So, there truly is "no wiggle room"??

I find it just a bit ironic that I am posting this reply on "Dr. Martin Luther King Day"!!

If there is indeed, no wiggle room, then we are forced to draw some inescapable conclusions here.

1.) Rosa Parks sinned by refusing to give up her seat on a city bus in Selma, Alabama.

2.) Dr. Martin Luther King sinned by calling for non-violence, and civil disobedience, and for refusing to accept seating in the "colored" section of a restaurant.

3.) Mother Jones sinned in her acts of union organizing, fighting to free children enslaved in "sweat shop" labor, and staging of union protests.

4.) Susan B. Anthony sinned in her struggles for women suffer-age.

5.) Joe Hill sinned in fighting for the rights of copper miners.

6.) Oskar Schindler sinned in selling defective ammunition to The Nazi's, and using the money he was paid to buy freedom for Jews imprisoned in concentration camps.

7.) Lech Walesa sinned in organizing shipyard workers into unions, and giving birth to the Solidarity Movement.

8.) Crispus Atticus sinned in serving the Union as a spy during the
Civil War; he was, after all living a lifestyle of deceit!!

There are so many others, far too many heroes to mention.

Sorry, I just can't buy that!!

Every one of those people engaged in different, and necessary forms of civil disobedience, and found themselves outside the boundaries and confines of legalism. If their acts were sin in the eyes of Heaven, then as far as I am concerned, the only greater sin that they could have committed would to remain within the confines of religious legalism, and done nothing.

[chapchap70]

I am replying to these backwards. More posts are coming

Useless wrote:

So, there truly is "no wiggle room"??

I find it just a bit ironic that I am posting this reply on "Dr. Martin Luther King Day"!!

If there is indeed, no wiggle room, then we are forced to draw some inescapable conclusions here.

1.) Rosa Parks sinned by refusing to give up her seat on a city bus in Selma, Alabama.

2.) Dr. Martin Luther King sinned by calling for non-violence, and civil disobedience, and for refusing to accept seating in the "colored" section of a restaurant.

3.) Mother Jones sinned in her acts of union organizing, fighting to free children enslaved in "sweat shop" labor, and staging of union protests.

4.) Susan B. Anthony sinned in her struggles for women suffer-age.

5.) Joe Hill sinned in fighting for the rights of coal miners.

6.) Oskar Schindler sinned in selling defective ammunition to The Nazi's, and using the money he was paid to buy freedom for Jews imprisoned in concentration camps.

7.) Lech Waleasa sinned in organizing shipyard workers into unions, and giving birth to the Solidarity Movement.

8.) Crispus Atticus sinned in serving the Union as a spy during the
Civil War; he was, after all living a lifestyle of deceit!!

There are so many others, far too many heroes to mention.

Sorry, I just can't buy that!!

Every one of those people engaged in different, and necessary forms of civil disobedience, and found themselves outside the boundaries and confines of legalism. If their acts were sin in the eyes of Heaven, then as far as I am concerned, the only greater sin that they could have committed would to remain within the confines of religious legalism, and done nothing.

I have gone through this in my mind with at least the first two things you listed. Some of them I do not know enough about to comment.

If I am to serve Christ well, there cannot be any deceit in me because to serve Christ is to serve the truth. When I lie to "bring about good", I am not serving Christ. I am actually stating by my actions that good is impotent on its own and needs the help of evil to suceed. This is hard to swallow but there it is.


Some things to think about:

When Jesus was betrayed and was being led away by the Jewish authorities when He did no wrong, Peter decided it was time to fight. After all, if this wasn't a fight about what is honorable, just, and right, what is?

When Stephen was stoned to death for preaching a sermon that the Jewish leaders found offensive, they stoned him. Why was there no retaliation?

[Useless]

I have gone through this in my mind with at least the first two things you listed. Some of them I do not know enough about to comment.

If I am to serve Christ well, there cannot be any deceit in me because to serve Christ is to serve the truth. When I lie to "bring about good", I am not serving Christ.

I can think of well over 900 Jews who gave thanks to G-D that Oskar schindler didn't see things the way you do!!

So, Oskar Schindler did not serve Christ because his actions involved lies and deception??

Crispus Atticus did not serve Christ because his actions involved lies and deceit??

Lech Walesa did not serve Christ, because his actions, and the actions of his followers involved lies and deceit???

I am actually stating by my actions that good is impotent on its own and needs the help of evil to succeed. This is hard to swallow but there it is.

Yes, it is, especially when you examine the courageous actions of these people. I would strongly encourage you to do some research on the people whose names I have listed; not difficult to do, just Google the name, and you'll find a bounty of information on them

In particular, I want you to focus upon Oskar Schindler, Lech Walesa, and Crispus Atticus; their stories relate directly to the issues at hand.

Some things to think about:

When Jesus was betrayed and was being led away by the Jewish authorities when He did no wrong, Peter decided it was time to fight. After all, if this wasn't a fight about what is honorable, just, and right, what is?

Now, you are a Christian, and I am not, but this was NOT a fight about what is honorable, just, and right; this was about fulfillment of a prophecy!! The betrayal and the trial of Jesus were all events that set the stage for that to happen.

In the end, it was not a fight, not a battle, but rather The Ultimate Victory that Jesus provided!! A "fight", a "battle" for what was "honorable, right, and just" would not have fulfilled that prophecy, nor would it have provided the Ultimate Victory!!

Study your theology a little bit more deeply, and you will discover that one of the things that led to the crucifixion of Jesus was that the Jews believed that he was to be lead them in rebellion. His refusal to do that was in no small part what led the Jews to call for his death.

[Useless]

Double post

[Truckfam]

I have gone through this in my mind with at least the first two things you listed. Some of them I do not know enough about to comment.

If I am to serve Christ well, there cannot be any deceit in me because to serve Christ is to serve the truth. When I lie to "bring about good", I am not serving Christ. I am actually stating by my actions that good is impotent on its own and needs the help of evil to suceed. This is hard to swallow but there it is.


Some things to think about:

When Jesus was betrayed and was being led away by the Jewish authorities when He did no wrong, Peter decided it was time to fight. After all, if this wasn't a fight about what is honorable, just, and right, what is?

When Stephen was stoned to death for preaching a sermon that the Jewish leaders found offensive, they stoned him. Why was there no retaliation?

But yet, Jesus himself broke man's laws. It was against man's law that he call himself the Christ. According to Jewish laws, that was balphemsy and enough to put himself on the cross.

He also created a whip and over turned the money changers tables in the temple. I'm sure there was a law about civil disobedience in those days also.

He called the religious heads of that time snakes, vipers, and hyprocrites. I believe snakes and vipers would have been the worst things to say to them, since it has the reference back to the garden of Eden and snake representing Satan.

Even though everyone portrays him peacful, he wasn't out to create peace. He offended at least half of everyone he talked to, and sometimes over half. There was the one time he was talking I believe in a temple, and the entire crowd wanted him dead.

Yes, Jesus broke man's law, and offended others. Yet, he never sinned against God or God's laws.

As to the elder on speeding, that is a hoot. He is only trying to cover his but trying to make it look like it is ok to do. He knows he speeds himself, and doesn't want to get caught by his own words.

As far as driving speed limit or under, I'm one of them. I hate driving, and get lost easily. I get white knuckle syndrom on the steering wheel. Don't feel that I can see well merging into traffic. That is when I do alot of praying. Everything seems to be a blur whether or not I'm turning my head or trying to use the mirrors. I got lost coming home from my local walmart with a brain fart thinking I had to go north instead of south. It took 15 minutes on the cell sitting at a Sheets before my husband finally told me to just take a right and go straight. The road leads directly into town, and I'll see the turn for our road. I'll be home in 10 minutes, well 15 to 20 with the way you drive. Real irony is that my husband is total oppsite of me.

I know, I know, I need to get out driving more. To tell you the truth, I'm scared, and have a slow reaction time. I rather stock up for two weeks on grocercies and not have to drive, than take a trip to the store before he gets home. I think I might try a trip to Walmart later on, and maybe a trip to the local library. Walmart is fairly easy, except merging. The road to the library is two lane with stoplights at the end of the road. I might have to parall park though. UGH.. :?

[chapchap70]

Golfhobo,

If my understanding is correct, when the term "Christian" first came into use, it was a derrogatory term which meant "little Christ".

Jesus said, "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's... and to God that which is His."

THIS, in fact, is the FIRST and fundamental "separation clause" between government and religion!

Jesus was NOT saying that one MUST pay tribute to the "Crown" so much as he was saying to "deal with them" as you feel obligated or oppressed to do. But, to give GOD the tribute HE asks. In fact, the response was to a question about whether one should have to make "offerings" to God, when he is already being "taxed" by the government.

Luke 20:20-26 (KJV)
And they watched him, and sent forth spies, which should feign themselves just men, that they might take hold of his words, that so they might deliver him unto the power and authority of the governor. [21] And they asked him, saying, Master, we know that thou sayest and teachest rightly, neither acceptest thou the person of any, but teachest the way of God truly: [22] Is it lawful for us to give tribute unto Caesar, or no? [23] But he perceived their craftiness, and said unto them, Why tempt ye me? [24] Shew me a penny. Whose image and superscription hath it? They answered and said, Caesar's. [25] And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's. [26] And they could not take hold of his words before the people: and they marvelled at his answer, and held their peace.

I find NO real mandate in the Bible for God's people to necessarily obey ALL the laws of the government, except as they are reasonable and not against God's laws.

I agree that God's laws must have a higher authority then man's. Who gets to define what reasonable is?

1 Peter 2:13-20 (KJV)
Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; [14] Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. [15] For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: [16] As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God. [17] Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king. [18] Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. [19] For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. [20] For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.


This is the main reason why I disagree with the Elder. Do we submit to our governments' laws all the time when it does not go against the laws of God, or only when it is convenient? (God won't mind if I speed to get to church on time, right?) I am unable to obey all the laws when I am trying. There are too many. I, in practice do not say to myself, "that one is no big deal" because they all are. I am thankful for God's grace.

[chapchap70]

I have gone through this in my mind with at least the first two things you listed. Some of them I do not know enough about to comment.

If I am to serve Christ well, there cannot be any deceit in me because to serve Christ is to serve the truth. When I lie to "bring about good", I am not serving Christ.

So, Oskar Schindler did not serve Christ in his actions involved lies and deception??

Crispus Atticus did not serve Christ because his actions involved lies and deceit??

Lech Walesa did not serve Christ, because his actions, and the actions of his followers involved lies and deceit???

I can only perceive. If my perceptions are different than God's, I am wrong. I believe there are stories in the Old Testament where people were commended and it could be said they used deceptions. I think they may have been commended for not taking a worse alternative but they may have been able to do better.

1 John 2:15-17 (KJV)
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. [16] For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. [17] And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

I did not look into the people you mentioned yet. I perceive that if they did what they did for the sake of human institutions, they could not have served Christ at the same time. It is either one or the other.

Should Christians leave things out of a Gospel presentation to make it more palatable in order to get people to "accept" Jesus?




More at another time because I can't give thoughtful responses to all the replies right now as they are coming too fast.

[Useless]

[quote="chapchap70"]

I did not look into the people you mentioned yet.

I perceive that if they did what they did for the sake of human institutions, they could not have served Christ at the same time.

If you have not made the effort to study these people, and learn of the victories that they won not only for mankind, but for the cause of what is Righteous in the eyes of God, then how can you be so quick to judge them??? Certainly, you would not want your perceptions to be clouded by fact!!

Your reply is in no small part why I do not appreciate being called a "Christian". You choose the path of Myopia, and yet you believe that you have the right to sit in judgment on their actions and motivations???

If you truly believe that the works of these people did not serve to glorify God, then I truly pity you.

I think that you have lost sight of the difference between what is truly Righteous, and what is self righteous!! As I said, it is because of people who think as you do that I do not wish to be called a Christian.

[Truckfam]

[quote="chapchap70"]

I did not look into the people you mentioned yet. I perceive that if they did what they did for the sake of human institutions, they could not have served Christ at the same time. It is either one or the other.

Should Christians leave things out of a Gospel presentation to make it more palatable in order to get people to "accept" Jesus?

More at another time because I can't give thoughtful responses to all the replies right now as they are coming too fast.

Shindler was a Natzi official running a Concentration camp filled with Jews. His job was to work the Jews to death and eventually kill them perferablly sooner. How he got into that position, I don't know. If he had a change of heart during that position, possibly.

For what ever reason Shindler had the Jews at that camp make more dud artellery than live artelliry. So that at least half if not over half of the weaponary would not work thus saving allies lives and thus in the long run saving more Jewish lives.

He also treated the Jews in the camp as best he could without having his superiors clamping down on him. According to Shindler's List the movie, he worked to bring families together requesting the children of the parents to come to his camp. When asked why, he said their small hands were needed to clean the inside of the shells.

Yet, if he turned his back on everything and the camp because his beliefs changed, then all the Jews in that camp would have suffered terribly.

Shindler went against the government's laws, his commands, and every thing Hitler stood for. If he was found out, he more than likely would have died in the process. Yet in doing so, he obeyed God's law by loving they neighbor, loving thy enemy, giving to those who are in need, and looking out for the widows and orphans, and not murdering.

Paraphrased on one of Jesus sayings. Too tired to look it up right now: Who ever gives a drink to them also gives a drink to me. Who ever gives a blanket or coat to these also clothes me.

Shindler broke man's law to fulfill God's laws.

Also, no it is not right to leave out the gospel in order to not offend others. Jesus must be shaking his head every time someone does that. I wouldn't go all out and say it is a sin to do so, but to do so, leaves out the power of the Gospel and Jesus himself.

Sadly, there are too many churches that become seeker sensitive instead of God, Jesus, and Holy Ghost sensitive.

[Truckfam]

As I said, it is because of people who think as you do that I do not wish to be called a Christian.

I'll tell you it is hard, very hard to put Christianity in a good light knowing I'm going to mess up somewhere. I'm going to do something wrong, put my foot in my mouth. Knowing someone, somewhere, someday is going to say that about me also.

Please don't look at all Christians like that, or think the gospel is mesed up because we mess it up by our behaviour or what we say. I'm imperfect, and to be held to perfect standards is the is the weight that will chrush any Christian especially me.