Okay, I liked this... in a weird sort of way

[Consider]

it's not funny...

http://discussions.pbs.org/viewtopic.pbs?t=61119

(CLICK TO WATCH)

If we could do polls, would more than 50% hate it?
...oh... we can!

(will I have to stay away for a couple months till you forget I posted it?)

[Roadhog]

....well...I guess I will be the first one to vote. Sorry, I have to lean toward I hated it. I watched the whole sad thing to be fair. Songs like this I know are important forms of expression.

Some of the message was okay, for a negative political song. One could also write a positive political song, with equal emotion, and create patriotism and uplifting spirit, instead of rebellion and dispair.

I love the freedom of expression we have, and a song like this does help a society recognize the need for reforms. I would never move to like say Canada, New Zealand, or anywhere else...because I feel like "We Can't Make It Here Anymore." I generally take a positive stance against anything negative. This song really does very little good in my opinion, and even leaves you feeling sad and hopeless. I hate when music is used like that.

Anyway, I realize you like this sort of expression, so I don't mean to belabor my feelings against it. Like I said earlier, I felt a few good points were raised, but diminished in the dispair. We are American's...we are not powerless, and we are not beaten.

If America falls, this whole world is going to fall with her. Our economy is linked to world economics. If we have to pull our troops home and not offer help to the weaker nations, they will CRY LOUDLY for our help again. Like a lost love, you don't know what you had until it's gone.
If America is brought to her knees, this whole world will suffer. China is becoming a real player, but they will not dance merrily in the streets laughing at us. They will be as nervous as a pig at a BBQ.

[Consider]

....well...I guess I will be the first one to vote. Sorry, I have to lean toward I hated it. I watched the whole sad thing to be fair. Songs like this I know are important forms of expression.

Some of the message was okay, for a negative political song. One could also write a positive political song, with equal emotion, and create patriotism and uplifting spirit, instead of rebellion and dispair.

I love the freedom of expression we have, and a song like this does help a society recognize the need for reforms. I would never move to like say Canada, New Zealand, or anywhere else...because I feel like "We Can't Make It Here Anymore." I generally take a positive stance against anything negative. This song really does very little good in my opinion, and even leaves you feeling sad and hopeless. I hate when music is used like that.

Anyway, I realize you like this sort of expression, so I don't mean to belabor my feelings against it. Like I said earlier, I felt a few good points were raised, but diminished in the dispair. We are American's...we are not powerless, and we are not beaten.

If America falls, this whole world is going to fall with her. Our economy is linked to world economics. If we have to pull our troops home and not offer help to the weaker nations, they will CRY LOUDLY for our help again. Like a lost love, you don't know what you had until it's gone.
If America is brought to her knees, this whole world will suffer. China is becoming a real player, but they will not dance merrily in the streets laughing at us. They will be as nervous as a pig at a BBQ.

I really liked your post, a lot!

But at the last paragraph I had to disagree.

Yes, our economy is linked. They all are.

It's when you talk aobut pulling our troops home and not offering help...

Here's the thing, we've killed 129,000 Iraqis. That's not terrorists or soldiers or the Mahdi army (?) alone, that's people, moms, grandmas, kids.

Saddam did not kill that many.

So I don't think that there are many who see us as "helping."

To a lot of the world we are no longer their love, their lost love, but rather a stalker whom they fear, or possibly hate.

When I look at snearing Cheney, and hear him talk, I don't get a good feeling. I can understand that the people who went to the war, even volunteered, may believe as you do. But... Cheney made a HUGE amount of money from this war, and it's clear from several accounts that the war was desired by Cheney and others, and planned, and made to happen. It was planned way earlier than all the rhetoric about WMD.

To me, it's like when people worked in asbestos plants and played with the stuff, thinking it wonderful for it's fire retarding properties, but then it clogged their lungs. When those people are interviewed years after they had the job, their feelings are no longer that asbestos is fun. They wish they would have known about the dangers of asbestos.

To me, that's what the images in the video do, they tell us about the dangers... of Clinton and Bush. To me one of the most telling images was that of Bush with Clinton, Clinton with Bush.

[OverTheRoad]

....well...I guess I will be the first one to vote. Sorry, I have to lean toward I hated it. I watched the whole sad thing to be fair. Songs like this I know are important forms of expression.

Some of the message was okay, for a negative political song. One could also write a positive political song, with equal emotion, and create patriotism and uplifting spirit, instead of rebellion and dispair.

I love the freedom of expression we have, and a song like this does help a society recognize the need for reforms. I would never move to like say Canada, New Zealand, or anywhere else...because I feel like "We Can't Make It Here Anymore." I generally take a positive stance against anything negative. This song really does very little good in my opinion, and even leaves you feeling sad and hopeless. I hate when music is used like that.

Anyway, I realize you like this sort of expression, so I don't mean to belabor my feelings against it. Like I said earlier, I felt a few good points were raised, but diminished in the dispair. We are American's...we are not powerless, and we are not beaten.

If America falls, this whole world is going to fall with her. Our economy is linked to world economics. If we have to pull our troops home and not offer help to the weaker nations, they will CRY LOUDLY for our help again. Like a lost love, you don't know what you had until it's gone.
If America is brought to her knees, this whole world will suffer. China is becoming a real player, but they will not dance merrily in the streets laughing at us. They will be as nervous as a pig at a BBQ.

I really liked your post, a lot!

But at the last paragraph I had to disagree.

Yes, our economy is linked. They all are.

It's when you talk aobut pulling our troops home and not offering help...

Here's the thing, we've killed 129,000 Iraqis. That's not terrorists or soldiers or the Mahdi army (?) alone, that's people, moms, grandmas, kids.

Saddam did not kill that many.

So I don't think that there are many who see us as "helping."

To a lot of the world we are no longer their love, their lost love, but rather a stalker whom they fear, or possibly hate.

When I look at snearing Cheney, and hear him talk, I don't get a good feeling. I can understand that the people who went to the war, even volunteered, may believe as you do. But... Cheney made a HUGE amount of money from this war, and it's clear from several accounts that the war was desired by Cheney and others, and planned, and made to happen. It was planned way earlier than all the rhetoric about WMD.

To me, it's like when people worked in asbestos plants and played with the stuff, thinking it wonderful for it's fire retarding properties, but then it clogged their lungs. When those people are interviewed years after they had the job, their feelings are no longer that asbestos is fun. They wish they would have known about the dangers of asbestos.

To me, that's what the images in the video do, they tell us about the dangers... of Clinton and Bush. To me one of the most telling images was that of Bush with Clinton, Clinton with Bush.

Work a little on the Saddam figure for me. Just turn on the evening news and listen to his trial. They charge him with more deaths in 20 minutes then you can even imagine. By the way.... How the hell do you know that none of the people killed in wartime are not terrorists or out enemy. Last time I checked none of them wore a uniform or fought for a country.

As far as the US economy and the rest of the world... well lets just say we wont be a big power in the west when its all said and done. :wink:


PS, you have some neat conspiracy theories.

[Consider]

Run my conspiracy theory past me, will you?
I'm not aware of one, myself.

Yes, listen to the Saddam trial. The numbers of dead from him, were given at 100,000.

That is less than 129,000.

And some of the people he killed may have been murderers, just as some we killed may have been warriors, fighters.

[MACK]

You know what I really don't give a damn how many people we kill over there as long as we win and our troops are safe because in my mind our troops are more important than some peace of crap muslim that supposedly hate us.

[Consider]

You know what I really don't give a damn how many people we kill over there as long as we win and our troops are safe because in my mind our troops are more important than some peace of crap muslim that supposedly hate us.

Ah.

I see.

Well, that will sure make them appreciate us.

Our troops are safe?

[MACK]

You know what I really don't give a damn how many people we kill over there as long as we win and our troops are safe because in my mind our troops are more important than some peace of crap muslim that supposedly hate us.

Ah.

I see.

Well, that will sure make them appreciate us.

Our troops are safe?

Yeah they are safe if we will actually let them shoot at somebody before they get shot at.

As far as them liking us some will like us and others will always hate us no matter what we do but yeah if there is some civilian standing in between one of our soldiers and the enemy shoot the damn civilian.

[Consider]

You know what I really don't give a damn how many people we kill over there as long as we win and our troops are safe because in my mind our troops are more important than some peace of crap muslim that supposedly hate us.

Ah.

I see.

Well, that will sure make them appreciate us.

Our troops are safe?

Yeah they are safe if we will actually let them shoot at somebody before they get shot at.

As far as them liking us some will like us and others will always hate us no matter what we do but yeah if there is some civilian standing in between one of our soldiers and the enemy shoot the damn civilian.

So you think we are going to win?

How will we know when we've won?

What are we winning?

[MACK]

We win like we did in World War2 by taking 300 planes at once each one haulling 20,000lbs of bombs and and droping them on cities untill they aren't anything more than a cloud of dust that is how we win the war.

[Consider]

We win like we did in World War2 by taking 300 planes at once each one haulling 20,000lbs of bombs and and droping them on cities untill they aren't anything more than a cloud of dust that is how we win the war.

Wait, I thought we took out Saddam for the good of the people there?

Now you want to annihilate the people entirely?

[MACK]

We win like we did in World War2 by taking 300 planes at once each one haulling 20,000lbs of bombs and and droping them on cities untill they aren't anything more than a cloud of dust that is how we win the war.

Wait, I thought we took out Saddam for the good of the people there?

Now you want to annihilate the people entirely?

Saddam is gone but the enemy isn't and the only way to get rid of the enemy os to kill them.

[Consider]

We win like we did in World War2 by taking 300 planes at once each one haulling 20,000lbs of bombs and and droping them on cities untill they aren't anything more than a cloud of dust that is how we win the war.

Wait, I thought we took out Saddam for the good of the people there?

Now you want to annihilate the people entirely?

Saddam is gone but the enemy isn't and the only way to get rid of the enemy os to kill them.

The enemy is everyone in the cities?

If we kill everyone in the cities, then the enemy will be gone and we will have won?

What did you think of the recent Israeli strikes in Lebanon, then?

[MACK]

We win like we did in World War2 by taking 300 planes at once each one haulling 20,000lbs of bombs and and droping them on cities untill they aren't anything more than a cloud of dust that is how we win the war.

Wait, I thought we took out Saddam for the good of the people there?

Now you want to annihilate the people entirely?

Saddam is gone but the enemy isn't and the only way to get rid of the enemy os to kill them.

The enemy is everyone in the cities?

If we kill everyone in the cities, then the enemy will be gone and we will have won?

What did you think of the recent Israeli strikes in Lebanon, then?

No the enemy is not the whole city but the enemy is in every city and you cannot and will not win this war until you are willing to use force. Such as going into each and every city and going into every building and dragging everybody out into the street and shooting anybody who you even suspect to be the enemy and just leave them lying in the street that is what those people understand and you will not have anymore problems or like what I said with the bombers if there is a section of the city that is not acting right turn it into dust and people will learn to stay away from those kind of people.

As far as Israel I wish they would have just kept pounding the crap out of Lebanon.

[Consider]

No the enemy is not the whole city but the enemy is in every city and you cannot and will not win this war until you are willing to use force. Such as going into each and every city and going into every building and dragging everybody out into the street and shooting anybody who you even suspect to be the enemy and just leave them lying in the street that is what those people understand and you will not have anymore problems or like what I said with the bombers if there is a section of the city that is not acting right turn it into dust and people will learn to stay away from those kind of people.

As far as Israel I wish they would have just kept pounding the crap out of Lebanon.

Yes, it was needless for me to ask your opinion of Lebanon.

I'm pretty sure that most of the people in the Middle East see/believe Americans to all have your thoughts.

I know what Cheney got out of the war, his stock in Halliburton went up over a thousand percent.

What are you getting out of it?

[MACK]

No the enemy is not the whole city but the enemy is in every city and you cannot and will not win this war until you are willing to use force. Such as going into each and every city and going into every building and dragging everybody out into the street and shooting anybody who you even suspect to be the enemy and just leave them lying in the street that is what those people understand and you will not have anymore problems or like what I said with the bombers if there is a section of the city that is not acting right turn it into dust and people will learn to stay away from those kind of people.

As far as Israel I wish they would have just kept pounding the crap out of Lebanon.

Yes, it was needless for me to ask your opinion of Lebanon.

I'm pretty sure that most of the people in the Middle East see/believe Americans to all have your thoughts.

I know what Cheney got out of the war, his stock in Halliburton went up over a thousand percent.

What are you getting out of it?

NOT A DAMN THING.

You and all you cut and run democraps are keeping us from wining this war.

[Fozzy]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/13/iraq.graves/

Human rights groups list the dead from Saddam's regime at something more like 300,000. And these people in the mass graves were not caught up in a war where they have FOREIGN insurgents hiding and fighting amongst them in their communities and use them as shields. They were removed and gassed and or just machine gunned and pushed into pits by bulldozers. I wonder why there are so many people who rationalize the latest versions of the warsaw ghettos as none of the worlds business. How brave of you. I guess we were in the wrong when we attacked France, Belgium, Holland and then finally Germany in 1944-45. Was it worth the thousands of civilian casualties that these countries suffered to rid the world of a force that had killed millions.

[Roadhog]

Consider THIS....

what are you even doing here but deliberately trying to push someone's buttons. Are you even interested in any ones opinion...or what?

Must everyone simply agree with you??

[Consider]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/13/iraq.graves/

Human rights groups list the dead from Saddam's regime at something more like 300,000. And these people in the mass graves were not caught up in a war where they have FOREIGN insurgents hiding and fighting amongst them in their communities and use them as shields. They were removed and gassed and or just machine gunned and pushed into pits by bulldozers. I wonder why there are so many people who rationalize the latest versions of the warsaw ghettos as none of the worlds business. How brave of you. I guess we were in the wrong when we attacked France, Belgium, Holland and then finally Germany in 1944-45. Was it worth the thousands of civilian casualties that these countries suffered to rid the world of a force that had killed millions.

Let me see, so you are saying he killed about twice as many people as we have?

At first I read your post to be about Falluja where it is estimated that we killed 300,000.
http://discussions.pbs.org/viewtopic...w=flat&start=0

read the post, "Killing people is like squashing an ant:" on the second page.

Then, there is a post in this thread:
http://discussions.pbs.org/viewtopic...ghlight=barnes
"Choosing Civilization" by Juliania.

So, with these things in mind I thought you really were saying that I was brave to post a dissenting opinion.

I don't know if you caught the news yesterday, but Saddam was saying that the reason the Kurds got gassed was that he was fighting Iran and they just happened to die when he attacked Iran. Sound familiar?

So should they let Saddam off when he was just doing what Bush does?

[Consider]

Consider THIS....

what are you even doing here but deliberately trying to push someone's buttons. Are you even interested in any ones opinion...or what?

Must everyone simply agree with you??

I must have missed something, I didn't see anyone agree with me. At least in the poll.

Nor did anyone write in agreement.

Do you think that there should only be agreement with your opinion?

I had asked you what you are getting out of the war. I wonder... what are you getting out of the war that makes you so keen on it?

As I said, I know what Cheney is getting: major increase in value in his Hallaburton stock. (oops, I've forgotten how to spell Halliburton.)

Oh, sorry.... I missed your post in caps and red ink.

Let me ask you this, don't you think that if the country's young men are being sent to fight possibly to their death, that you and I should be getting something out of the war?

I do. A war purely for the profit of a few people is morally unacceptable to me. Isn't it to you?