Slimland is Back!! Debate and discussion!!

[Slimland]

Ok, My Muppet Friends, I am back and would like to resume our discussion. A new thread, for the old one is full of the same stuff over and over. New questions in order 1 at a time.

Mr.Bighead-- I am looking forward to our discussion, since we disagree and have kicked the dead horse on freewill and God resons for it, lets move on to another biblical subject.


Fozzy-- We have some unfinished buisness-- We have had our ups and downs, but I think our discussions have actualy done some good, I would like to resume them, I think we can keep it civil, weve done it before we can do it again, Agreed!

Aligator--I do not know enough about what you believe if anything, but I am willing to discuss it.

As for GreenMachine-- I do not think he will involve himself in this, he went to a diffrent site, and has his hands full, with those who's knowledge in diffrent versions of the bible surpass mine, But I will say he is holding his own, and keeping his temper in complet control.

OTR-- Keep it cool, don't get upset!

Rocky-- I would apreciate some of your input and insight in this discussion, you have some great thoughts.

Chapp-Chapp-- We might not agree on all things, but we are still brothers in Christ, would like your input also.

Soo everyone is invited, soo lets get this thing started.


Mr. Bighead what do you believe in, if anything?

[Roadhog]

<bump>

Howdy my good friend. Let me kick this one in gear. Maybe you've discussed this already. Foremost on my mind lately is "the sign of the times."

Do you see in Prophecy.... England and the USA as the birthright nations?...Ephraim and Manasseh respectfully?
The outcome ...if true...would mean the USA will suffer an economic downfall...it's economy like a bag full of holes.
Does seem the most logical way this great Country may be heading. England has already lost most of Her former holdings.

[Slimland]

<bump>

Howdy my good friend. Let me kick this one in gear. Maybe you've discussed this already. Foremost on my mind lately is "the sign of the times."

Do you see in Prophecy.... England and the USA as the birthright nations?...Ephraim and Manasseh respectfully?
The outcome ...if true...would mean the USA will suffer an economic downfall...it's economy like a bag full of holes.
Does seem the most logical way this great Country may be heading. England has already lost most of Her former holdings.

England and the USA as the birthright nations?...Ephraim and Manasseh respectfully?

Good to see your voice!
No I do not think they are birthrith Nations, but I do believe the USA and the whole world will suffer an economic downfall. THis could be caused by war, or most respectfuly a raptur of Gods Children. This would also make it possible to bring in the sign of the beast. And to bring in the beast, ie Anti-Christ, for the spirit of the Anti-Christ is already in the world, but the phisical has yet been released from the pit. This won't happen untill He who is witholding him is taken out of the way. And that is the raptur in a nutshell.

Ephraim and Manesseh, where both children of Joseph, therfor respectfully children of one of the 12 tribe's of Israel, even though there mother was egyptian. This is why, Jacob had said he accepts them as his own!
I believe it was prophetic to a degree, but not in the sense of America, and England, For these 2 are gentile Nations by birth. Eventhough Christ has adopted the Gentiles who believe in Him into His famly, They are not blood, and Ephraim and Manesseh where blood even if Half.

Anyone else got a point of view on this?

[yeoldgrump]

The U.S. will most likely, at some time in the future, suffer a slowdown in the economy. But, it will bounce back stronger than before; as it always has. Do not worry about the U.S. economy. As more and more backward nations come into the modern age, their economies will grow and prosper; as well. As they prosper, their environments will become cleaner; as well.

[Windwalker]

Good to see you back, Slimland. I'll look in every now and then, but may not say much.

Although, the economic downfall will not come from war, or the war will be the result of energy shortage, whether real or artificial. Oil will cause more wars than anything unless a cheap alternative is found soon. Actually, there already is an alternative, but we have to find a way to make it inexpensive. Currently, it takes more energy to produce it than you get out of it. And, soybean oil and alcohol are not it. In order to produce enough to fuel the economy, we would not have fields enough left over to grow our own food. But, the rapture you're talking about is not likely to happen in your lifetime. Don't plan to quit your job because the end of the world is coming. Not yet.

[MACK]

The down fall of the USA will be one of two things.

One we run out of natural resources.

Two people who only crave power and don't believe in God get in to power and take away the democracy and then believers become a minority and God allows us to fall.

Just my $.02

[Slimland]

Good to see you back, Slimland. I'll look in every now and then, but may not say much.

Although, the economic downfall will not come from war, or the war will be the result of energy shortage, whether real or artificial. Oil will cause more wars than anything unless a cheap alternative is found soon. Actually, there already is an alternative, but we have to find a way to make it inexpensive. Currently, it takes more energy to produce it than you get out of it. And, soybean oil and alcohol are not it. In order to produce enough to fuel the economy, we would not have fields enough left over to grow our own food. But, the rapture you're talking about is not likely to happen in your lifetime. Don't plan to quit your job because the end of the world is coming. Not yet.

Hello WindWalker, been a long time, I am glad to hear from you.

Without going into anything real deep right now, if and when the econimy's fall, I do believe it will be from War, if not then from a disaster of some kind. As for the raptur -- I have my views on it, and I respectfuly disagree with you. I would like to put my resons down, but first I would like to hear your views on this, in more detail. and then I think we could discuss this further. As for the Job ---I would never quit and wait for the rapture, that would go against the gosphel.

[Slimland]

The down fall of the USA will be one of two things.

One we run out of natural resources.

Two people who only crave power and don't believe in God get in to power and take away the democracy and then believers become a minority and God allows us to fall.

Just my $.02

Thats a good 2 cents, good to hear from ya MACK, long time!

[Fozzy]

The problem is if we ever BECOME a democracy. Sadly we are already almost there. The dumbing down/self esteem over substance program of the American public is complete. Every issue is now 49% VS 50% whether it is Consititutionally jusitfiable or not. It seems like the 51% feel no remorse when they are taking the rights of others away.... until of course they fall into the 49%.

[Slimland]

The problem is if we ever BECOME a democracy. Sadly we are already almost there. The dumbing down/self esteem over substance program of the American public is complete. Every issue is now 49% VS 50% whether it is Consititutionally jusitfiable or not. It seems like the 51% feel no remorse when they are taking the rights of others away.... until of course they fall into the 49%.

Hey Fozzy, been a long time! been waiting for your input, I hope this discussion is a good one. Missed talking to ya--!!!

I agree with this statement!

feet with 10 toes made of clay and Iron.

Daniel 2:41-45
41 Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter?s clay and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; yet the strength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly fragile. 43 As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay. 44 And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. 45 Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold?the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation is sure.?

[MACK]

Hello WindWalker, been a long time, I am glad to hear from you.

Without going into anything real deep right now, if and when the econimy's fall, I do believe it will be from War, if not then from a disaster of some kind. As for the raptur -- I have my views on it, and I respectfuly disagree with you. I would like to put my resons down, but first I would like to hear your views on this, in more detail. and then I think we could discuss this further. As for the Job ---I would never quit and wait for the rapture, that would go against the gosphel.

Slimland I have a hard time believing that war will bring down the USA unless of course we get un Godly and weak minded people in charge of our country who won't use our military to defend us or if they try to use it to defend us the whole country will be so disrespectfully to God that he will allow us to fall.

[Fozzy]

Defend us from what?

[MACK]

Something I have been thinking about is if the USA does not completely fall but is severely weakened from a War like Germany after World War 1 and a figure maybe the Anti Christ rallies the people like Hitler and then creates the most powerful military the world has ever seen not defend us but to invade other countries and keep us in line like a dictator ship does.

[Mr. Bighead]

Mr.Bighead-- I am looking forward to our discussion, since we disagree and have kicked the dead horse on freewill and God resons for it, lets move on to another biblical subject.

Mr. Bighead what do you believe in, if anything?

Looks like I'm a little late to this discussion. I had stopped checking the Anything and Everything section, since there were no more religious arguments. These are the only interesting thing in this section.

I reckon I should start with what I believe first, so you know where I'm coming from. I used to have quite a few beliefs back when I was young and dumb. I'm not neccessarily talking about religious beliefs here, but they're included. I've learned a lot since then, and I learned that a lot of my beliefs were totally wrong. In some cases, a new belief replaced an old belief, and then I learned that it was also incorrect.

At some point, I realized that my ability to understand things is extremely limited. All I have to work with are five senses and a big monkey brain. The only thing that has proven fairly reliable is my ability to reason. I use it all the time, and it serves me pretty well. However, it doesn't work perfectly and it is totally dependent on the information I have available. So, therefore, all of my current beliefs are tentative. You could say that I don't quite believe my beliefs. If they are proven wrong, they immediately change. I sometimes make the incorrect assumption that other people have a similar belief system that can be influenced by facts and reasoning.

Since we've killed one horse, I'll move onto another that we only briefly discussed: What was the purpose of Jesus's sacrifice?

[Windwalker]

Hello WindWalker, been a long time, I am glad to hear from you.

Without going into anything real deep right now, if and when the econimy's fall, I do believe it will be from War, if not then from a disaster of some kind. As for the raptur -- I have my views on it, and I respectfuly disagree with you. I would like to put my resons down, but first I would like to hear your views on this, in more detail. and then I think we could discuss this further. As for the Job ---I would never quit and wait for the rapture, that would go against the gosphel.

Well, let's set the scrpture aside on there one for the moment. Look at the price of oil. It varies from one country to the next. We have been dependant on foreign oil for some time now. And the more dependant we get, the higher the price goes. In two years, we'll be paying $5/gal. for gas and fuel. Our economy depends on oil. But there are a lot of people that have to drive to work and as the price of gas goes up, they can afford less and less. The Germans, during WWII tried to ruin our economy with counterfiet money. It didn't work. But drive up the price of our energy and you'll make it impossible for people to afford to get to work. You'll have homeless families across the country, and that's only the beginning. OPEC will control our economy without firing a shot. There won't be a war. We'll simply go under quietly. Things like gasahol and bio-disiel will only serve to slow it down. it only dilutes the oil. Instead, we need to be able to replace the oil with something else, and as long as there is little effort in that direction, we are at risk. Give us another 3 to 4 years and fuel will be at $10/gal or higher. It's going to go up in a geometric proportion. In 10 years, we won't have an economy anymore. That's our downfall.

By heating rubber in an oxygen free environment, you can drive off an oil that will work in a disiel engine. But that requires a great amount of heat, and with all the old rubber tires in this country, there would not be enough to power the country for more than a week. You can do the same with carbon based trash, but still not have enough. To produce enough alcohol or soybean oil to use for fuel, we would have to devote all our fields to that and have little for food production. We need to start NOW to re-engineer our sources of energy away from oil. But while there have been a few answers over the past century, that's as far as it's gotten.

In 1979, a motor was invented that runs on "ELECTRON-SPIN PROPULSION". It uses no fuel, no electricty, no wind, and no water. The power comes from permenant magnets. The patent is held by a Mr. Johnson of Blacksburg, VA. It works, but nothing has been done with it. There have been a few other inovations that have been around for several years, but no one has done anything with them either.

We have the technology to re-design our truck and car engines to run on something other than oil, but no one is doing it. As long as our economy is based on oil, it is in the hands of foreign suppliers. That's our downfall. How far will you go when you have to pay $10 to $15 a gallon for gas if you don't have a pay increase to be able to afford it?

[Slimland]

Hello WindWalker, been a long time, I am glad to hear from you.

Without going into anything real deep right now, if and when the econimy's fall, I do believe it will be from War, if not then from a disaster of some kind. As for the raptur -- I have my views on it, and I respectfuly disagree with you. I would like to put my resons down, but first I would like to hear your views on this, in more detail. and then I think we could discuss this further. As for the Job ---I would never quit and wait for the rapture, that would go against the gosphel.

Slimland I have a hard time believing that war will bring down the USA unless of course we get un Godly and weak minded people in charge of our country who won't use our military to defend us or if they try to use it to defend us the whole country will be so disrespectfully to God that he will allow us to fall.

I didn't just say war, but also maybe some disaster--and the disaster I had in mind was the Raptur. As for the economy, even though it fell, it would rise back up, but I do believe that food will be very exspensive, ie "A mesure of wheat for a Penny, or 3 Messure of Barley for a penny, but hurt not the oil and wine"

As for this country moving away from God, I think that this country is on that track, and realy close to the falling away!

[Slimland]

Mr.Bighead-- I am looking forward to our discussion, since we disagree and have kicked the dead horse on freewill and God resons for it, lets move on to another biblical subject.

Mr. Bighead what do you believe in, if anything?

Looks like I'm a little late to this discussion. I had stopped checking the Anything and Everything section, since there were no more religious arguments. These are the only interesting thing in this section.

I reckon I should start with what I believe first, so you know where I'm coming from. I used to have quite a few beliefs back when I was young and dumb. I'm not neccessarily talking about religious beliefs here, but they're included. I've learned a lot since then, and I learned that a lot of my beliefs were totally wrong. In some cases, a new belief replaced an old belief, and then I learned that it was also incorrect.

At some point, I realized that my ability to understand things is extremely limited. All I have to work with are five senses and a big monkey brain. The only thing that has proven fairly reliable is my ability to reason. I use it all the time, and it serves me pretty well. However, it doesn't work perfectly and it is totally dependent on the information I have available. So, therefore, all of my current beliefs are tentative. You could say that I don't quite believe my beliefs. If they are proven wrong, they immediately change. I sometimes make the incorrect assumption that other people have a similar belief system that can be influenced by facts and reasoning.

Since we've killed one horse, I'll move onto another that we only briefly discussed: What was the purpose of Jesus's sacrifice?

Ok, we did go through this, but we will go through it again. And by the way good to talk to you again!

Life is in the blood, and the breath.

this is my understanding.

According to the old Law, there is no remmission for sin without the shedding of blood, and that would be the shedding of blood of the sinner "death of the Sinner". But God allowed, the sheeding of inocent blood, this would cover the sinner, so God would see inocents, and not the sin. But this would not take care of the conciance of the sinner. And therefor his conciance would still seperate him, because he knew that the blood of a animal was temporary. this is why they had to sacrifice every year.

If creation itself stands on Gods Word, then the denial of Gods Word is going against creation and the creator. Therfor to be put back in sinc would be to cover your self with creation that is not out of sinc. Kinda like the wolf in Bugsbunny show, he put on sheeps clothing so the sheep thought he was a sheep, and this is what they saw. "I know this is a bad anology, but I havn't got very good sleep latly"

So God knowing that this was temporary to the concious, and that the Coyot would again strike because his conciouse is defiled because of Sin. God made it easeir to believe in Him, by sending Himself to die for the sinner, therfor God would see His own blood, instead of the sinner. Not only this, but since it is Gods blood, and He is forever, therfor His cleansing is forever, therfor God see's creation in order instead of out of sinc. This is why, He said "There sins and Lawless acts, I will remember no more, and where these have been forgiven, there is now no more sacrifice for sin"
The sin He is talking about is the Sin of Unbelief.
The bible tells us that God cannot sin, and cannot be tempted.
But Jesus, is God and He was tempted, Hu?

I have stated befor that Evil in its purest form Glorifies God, for the essence of Evil shows us our need for God.and if it wern't for Evil man nore angels would have fallen from grace.
Evil is temptation- And temtation is not sin.
But the falling into temtation is sin.
So God cannot lie, for this would be denying Himself, therfor Temtation is futile, for temptation would be to get God, to deny Himself. and this is exactly what Lucifer tryed to do to Christ.
What would have happend if God would hae denied Himself, poof creation would have no longer exsisted, and niether would have God. So it would seem dumb, to think that God would have said I don't believe in myself.
So this make Him the perfect Sacrifice for man, because He can never deny Himself, and He lives forever, therfor those who believe in His Son, Which is the Word, have eternal Life, for He is the Breath and the Blood of creation.
This action did not change the Law of Creation, cause that still stands, either you believe or you don't. But it did change the sacrifice, and now there is no more sacrifice for sin, for this was done Once and For All, to those who believe in Him.
This is why, there are prophecys-- A testamony.
This is why there's history-- A testamony
THis is why there is the Word- A testamony
This is why we see creation-- A testamony
God the Father spoke of His Son-- A testamony
Jesus spoke of Himself-- A testamony
The Holy Spirit speaks of Jesus-- A testamony, and the Last given to men. This is why, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is not forgiven, it is the last testamony to man, of Christ. And it don't need forgivness, But a changing of the Mind! To believe or not to Believe!!!

[Slimland]

Hello WindWalker, been a long time, I am glad to hear from you.

Without going into anything real deep right now, if and when the econimy's fall, I do believe it will be from War, if not then from a disaster of some kind. As for the raptur -- I have my views on it, and I respectfuly disagree with you. I would like to put my resons down, but first I would like to hear your views on this, in more detail. and then I think we could discuss this further. As for the Job ---I would never quit and wait for the rapture, that would go against the gosphel.

Well, let's set the scrpture aside on there one for the moment. Look at the price of oil. It varies from one country to the next. We have been dependant on foreign oil for some time now. And the more dependant we get, the higher the price goes. In two years, we'll be paying $5/gal. for gas and fuel. Our economy depends on oil. But there are a lot of people that have to drive to work and as the price of gas goes up, they can afford less and less. The Germans, during WWII tried to ruin our economy with counterfiet money. It didn't work. But drive up the price of our energy and you'll make it impossible for people to afford to get to work. You'll have homeless families across the country, and that's only the beginning. OPEC will control our economy without firing a shot. There won't be a war. We'll simply go under quietly. Things like gasahol and bio-disiel will only serve to slow it down. it only dilutes the oil. Instead, we need to be able to replace the oil with something else, and as long as there is little effort in that direction, we are at risk. Give us another 3 to 4 years and fuel will be at $10/gal or higher. It's going to go up in a geometric proportion. In 10 years, we won't have an economy anymore. That's our downfall.

By heating rubber in an oxygen free environment, you can drive off an oil that will work in a disiel engine. But that requires a great amount of heat, and with all the old rubber tires in this country, there would not be enough to power the country for more than a week. You can do the same with carbon based trash, but still not have enough. To produce enough alcohol or soybean oil to use for fuel, we would have to devote all our fields to that and have little for food production. We need to start NOW to re-engineer our sources of energy away from oil. But while there have been a few answers over the past century, that's as far as it's gotten.

In 1979, a motor was invented that runs on "ELECTRON-SPIN PROPULSION". It uses no fuel, no electricty, no wind, and no water. The power comes from permenant magnets. The patent is held by a Mr. Johnson of Blacksburg, VA. It works, but nothing has been done with it. There have been a few other inovations that have been around for several years, but no one has done anything with them either.

We have the technology to re-design our truck and car engines to run on something other than oil, but no one is doing it. As long as our economy is based on oil, it is in the hands of foreign suppliers. That's our downfall. How far will you go when you have to pay $10 to $15 a gallon for gas if you don't have a pay increase to be able to afford it?

I do not know much about this-- but I guess I will have to ride a bike!

If you can start a car, and remove the battery and it still run, because of the alternator. Why cant they make a vehicle that runs on bateries, and "oil for lubrication" make a alternator strong enough to charge theise batteries, so you would never run out of fuel. So the batteries run the vehickle and the altenator in turn charges the batteries, therfor creating a constant fuel ie energy?

[Aligator]

Slim said:

Aligator--I do not know enough about what you believe if anything, but I am willing to discuss it.

Aligator sees a "move away from God" as inevitable and generally a good thing. Unfortunately, I do not see a move away from god happening right now. Contemporary christianity has assigned human qualities to their version of God and engages in the same silliness of prayer that muslims do, and although christianity is not exactly florishing it is hanging on very well.

God, I feel, does not "answer prayer". The talk of the word of god, son of god, will of god, god's plan, and etc. all contribute to our becoming increasingly irresponsible in that we look within ourselves less and less and rely upon god more and more.

We should reverse that trend. Not just christians, but muslims, and everyone else who has subscribed to what is described to the religious model by Huston Smith in his book "World's Religions". (The same book is called "The Religions of Man")
I believe that, contrary to the modern idea of "progress", the world is in a state of intellectual and spiritual decline, and I believe that most religions promote that decline by promoting themselves.

[Slimland]

Slim said:

Aligator--I do not know enough about what you believe if anything, but I am willing to discuss it.

Aligator sees a "move away from God" as inevitable and generally a good thing. Unfortunately, I do not see a move away from god happening right now. Contemporary christianity has assigned human qualities to their version of God and engages in the same silliness of prayer that muslims do, and although christianity is not exactly florishing it is hanging on very well.

God, I feel, does not "answer prayer". The talk of the word of god, son of god, will of god, god's plan, and etc. all contribute to our becoming increasingly irresponsible in that we look within ourselves less and less and rely upon god more and more.

We should reverse that trend. Not just christians, but muslims, and everyone else who has subscribed to what is described to the religious model by Huston Smith in his book "World's Religions". (The same book is called "The Religions of Man")
I believe that, contrary to the modern idea of "progress", the world is in a state of intellectual and spiritual decline, and I believe that most religions promote that decline by promoting themselves.

So let me get this right, You think that we should move away from God, and in the process this will reverse the spiritual decline? :?

Or did you mean move away from Religion? That would make more sense!

Thanks for responding to my question!
Now I kinda know where you stand.
So you do not deny God, you just don't believe the religious mumbo jumbo, no matter the religion! Is this right?