Discussion of Predestination "Anything based"

[Slimland]

Ok people lets discuss predestination, I don't care what religion, or even if theres not one.

I will set down some rules

1) If we quote from the bible or any simular book and it is going to be more than lets say 4 versus, Just put down the versus "EX: John 3:16", That way if we are realy interested we will look at it ourselves, or maybe a web site link.

2) I cant think of any other rules.

[Roadhog]

The outcome of this is already written, except for some variables due to chance and circumstance, with free will into the equation, yet knowing the results will be the same, even if the route is altered.
I'll just read the last page.

[Redeemed]

Predestination=no free will. Since we have free will then there can be no predestination.

[hoosierdaddy]

Or whatever we choose to do from our own free will was already predetermined? Just being facetious. This is an interesting topic and I hope it gets going.

[Redeemed]

I wonder sometimes where predetermination came from. Since God is omnipotent, omniscient, & omnipresent He sees and knows everything. God's view is not limited by time as we know it so He can see our beginning and our end. I can see where someone would say that means our outcome is predetermined but is it really? Just because He knows what we will do before we do it does not make it predetermined.

[Roadhog]

When I contemplate the great complexities of God, I never have a problem accepting being foreordained. He says he knew my name from before I was born. I can see myself with abilities to discern an outcome. I can see a Parent raise and train a child to make the right choices. Maybe the child pays the consequences for wrong choices, but if they are not fatal, the ultimate right choice, is usually made in the end.
I feel sometimes we are given Divine intervention, so the "right" outcome is made....dispite ourselves. This is "fate" in it's puerist form.

Let me use a personal example.
I was 25 years old, and racing a buddy of mine on a winding Lake Shore road. He was on a Sportster in front of me, and I was on my Triumph Bonneville. I had the superior cornering machine, and was determined to prove it. I started to really lay this Bonnie into the corners, but in a "S" curve, I couldn't recover. I was shooting off the road...and knowing I could not make the turn. There is only a second to react...you know you are going to crash....and the best you can do is try your best to pick your spot for the inevitable.
Straight in front of me is a telephone pole, and a curve road sign. All I had time for is to choose which of the two I was going to hit. Of course I chose the road sign, and leaned into it. It was going to be very close to the telephone pole as well, so I braced to make sure I didn't contact the pole.
Next thing I know, I see both the road sign and the telephone pole flash past me, and I bury the front of my Bonnie into a beach side sand dune, and come to a gentle stop. Not me, or my Bike had even the slightest scratch. How could that BE !! I was certain...CERTAIN I would have to hit something. By this time my buddy comes back looking for me. I'm by the edge of the road, bewildered by what just happened. My motorcycle tracks proved I just went between the sign and the pole...but HOW. Even surveying the scene...it seemed totally impossible. My friend and I pushed my Bonnie back up to the road and we even put it on it's very tire tracks.
There was absolutely no physical way we could fit the motorcycle on its tracks and lean the Bike or wiggle it, or in any way shape or form get it to go between the Pole and the Sign. The handle bars were actually hitting one or both, and the bulk of the bike would not fit.....yet there were the tracks....and I distinctly remember seeing I had to choose one or the other, and it would be a close call that I didn't hit them both anyway, and then seeing them flash between me.
This is one example of Divine intervention in my life. I have some even more bizarre stories, but the point I'm making is...there are some far greater things going on, and the magnificence of life is far greater than our comprehension. I see what we can accomplish, and know in my heart how much more God is capable of....and for me, mind-boggling. If I can predestine something...then I can say I have no question God can. If you measure all the combined wisdom and knowledge of man, and it equals less than the dust on the scales...what does that measure? I see the intricacy of life all around me, and it's everywhere, all the time. I have offered an example that life is there, even life we can not see, but it is there.
It's good for us to seek answers. But long as we are mortal...there are many answers we are not ready for. We are learning, and I for one would not consider a predestination as limiting my life to simple fate.

[chapchap70]

Let's say I chose to believe in God. This would mean that I have superior intellect to believe "The Truth". Wouldn't that be arrogant on my part? Since some do not choose "The Truth", it must be because there is a design flaw in human beings.

Let's say God chose me to believe in him. Is it fair that God is allowed to choose some and not others?


The reference to "The Truth" comes from John 14:6
Think about the statement, "I am The Truth" for a while and where it leads; it boggles the mind.

John 14:6 (KJV)
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

[Fozzy]

This is yet another area where the whole religious world flies apart. Either god is a simple voyeur who sits and watches things happen.. or he creates everything and makes things happen. The whole "gods will" thing must be complete fantasy?

Either EVERYTHING is predestined or NOTHING is.

[Redeemed]

Wow roadhog, that is an incredible story! And you walked away without a scratch. I have been in similar instances and can imagine how you felt sitting there after it happened.

I like the way you compared it to a parent/child relationship. That is basically what it is. God knows us better than we know ourselves. Like you said He knew our name before we were born. From His position I also believe he knows the date and time of our last breath and everything in between.

I also believe there are times when God intervenes in a life and predetermines it. The story of Moses and Pharaoh for example. The Bible explains that God hardened Pharaoh's heart and Pharaoh would not release the Israelites. This was done so that the Israelites would see God's hand in the events to follow.

I guess what is hard for me to conceive is God standing over a list and saying this one, this one, & this one will make it. These other three over here will not. That is what I see as predetermination. If that were the case then where is the free will that we were supposedly made with? God acting in a parental role standing over his creation and when appropriate interceding in it I understand.

I believe that with God's infinite knowledge of us He knows at what point in time our hearts become so hardened that we are lost. Being our Creator I guess you can say He did predetermine that in us. But I also believe until that point when we do become to hardened to believe He being the good parent never stops trying to help us take the right path. I am not sure but I think that is what you are saying in your post. If so, we agree.

Thanks,

[Roadhog]

There are many "safeguards" in place....and fortunately our time now, is only one aspect in our learning process. I think the choices will be very clear and easy to make when the time comes...for most.
There is going to be much confusion now, and frustration from deceptions, and what seems to be from a God who does not act, or care. Ride it out...now is not a good time to fight, or wish to be in the fight.

[RockyMtnProDriver]

I do not believe in Pre-destiny, fate, Karma, luck - good or bad, angels - good or bad, or anything other description that people use to get out of the responsibilities of their actions, or use to "explain" the sad state of affairs they are in for some reason or other.

No one takes care of me, sees over me, or is making sure I am OK or not.

That is my job.

And I do not give my job to others to make sure it gets done.

And I take that job very seriously.

[Roadhog]

Rocky, I agree with you.
I think what a person believes is his own business, and a personal part of life, that can be shared or not shared...which ever works for you. And whatever a man believes...he should be intitled to.
If more people held their convictions as...personal feelings...there may be less killing over beliefs.
A man should be willing and able to stand up for himself and grab the bull by the horns. Seems if more people accepted responsibility for themselves, I can't imagine how much more healthy society would be.?

[Fozzy]

I do believe in the Karma issue... There is no way to get away with anything. Until you are on the right path... you will suffer. There is only one person who can control your destiny... that is the person who looks you in the eye when you shave.

[RockyMtnProDriver]

Until you are on the right path... you will suffer.

The suffering is self inflicted.

If you accept what you have done, if it is a "bad" thing, then the suffering usually ends.

In other words, you control the suffering.

[Slimland]

WOW, I realy did not expect this Topic to take off this fast!


My input on predestination is a little diffrent than the majority.
I believe when God spoke of predestination, that it was not on a personal level, but a national level.

Israel, The Jews are predestined to be Gods children, we as Gentiles, through Christ are presdestined to become the seed of Abraham through the Mercies of Christ.

But in that predestination we have a choice, to either believe or not.
Somebody said somthing about Pharo "I cannot spell this morning". That God had hardened his heart. I know God did this to show His glory, and I also know that God gave Pharo many of choices and chances, to let his people go.
My question is, if God would not have hardened pharo's heart, would pharo have let the Jews go? If Yes, this in my opinion would have, not interfered with personal freedom of choice, why? because the choice we have been given is believe or not believe. To Choose between truth and lie, a curse and a blessing.
Does God know all, yes, this is where it gets confusing.
Another example: Cyrus, in Isaiah is proclamed to be one of Gods instrimunts to release the Jews, this befor Cyrus was even born, but Cyrus being predestined to do these things, I do not think this had any bearing on his choice between believing or not. "Did That make Sense?"

Forgive me my mind is everywhere this morning, I cannot seem to pull myself together this morning, matter of fact it has been about a month that I have been in this rut.

Please keep things going for me, I think I will take a break from posting for a while, I am not myself and I don't think I am making to much sense anymore compared to my earlier postings.
I am going to take a break for a while, so keep it going until I can get my bearings.

Thanks Y'all

Slimland.

[Roadhog]

Slimland....
maybe your body is trying to tell you it's time to take it out to the Bar. It's not so much your words, but your body language is cryin' out for a long dragged out drunk. Go loosen up...man.

Hey...if not for yourself...do it for me. I can't go celebrate St.Pattie's and slug my Irish buddies till I get a smile outta them.

[chapchap70]

Predestination=no free will. Since we have free will then there can be no predestination.

I guess this means God has no power and is hoping things will work out?

[Redeemed]

Predestination=no free will. Since we have free will then there can be no predestination.

I guess this means God has no power and is hoping things will work out?

Not at all. It just means that it is our choice and the outcome of our choice is our responsibility. God's plan will work out regardless.

[Slimland]

Slimland....
maybe your body is trying to tell you it's time to take it out to the Bar. It's not so much your words, but your body language is cryin' out for a long dragged out drunk. Go loosen up...man.

Hey...if not for yourself...do it for me. I can't go celebrate St.Pattie's and slug my Irish buddies till I get a smile outta them.

Maybe thats what it is,

Man, I am sorry guys, I don't know what the Hell is wrong with me. I seem so indisisive and questoning my every thought, I think I have got to much stress going on right now. and it is effecting my writing, the only thing I seem to be capable of besides being a jerk, is playing the guitar. When I am doing that things seem to slip away, but as soon as I put it down, the feeling comes back.

I know this thread is not the place to put this, maybe I need to make a crybaby thread. This is so frustrating, this is not me. I take pressure pretty well, but this is getting to me.

Sometimes I feel as if my faith is failing, but that cannot be it, cause I know that I am a reciever of the one that gives, and He is always faithful.
I just wish He would lighten the load. Maybe I just need to bury my head into the Word, but I don't realy know what good it would do. You see. It is like I was going to buy a book on positive thinking, but then I thought, what the Hell good would it do.

I have argued, yelled, submitted, even ignored and everything possible, to get God to give me some relief, NONE. I know He is there, I can feel Him and I stand on His Word, but no relief. I know in the end it will work out for the better, but how much more can a man take?

Look, I have lost a child back in 1997, I have been married to Satan and still have to deal with her, and this puts strain on anything I do, My kids that I just recieved costody on, have mental issues because of this woman and her famly. It affects Me and My wife and her 2 kids, its hard, on top of this I have been on workmans comp, for 2 years, almost lost my home 4 times, had to file bankruptcy, my vans transmission went out, this is our only vehicle, and knowing I will get released soon from my injury, the thought of trying to find a job after 2 years, is not very comforting, it is not the work it is the lack of. What I mean by that is, do you know how hard it is to find a job, after you havn't worked for 2 years. I guess I will have to go back into the resturant managment, which I lothe. I cannot go back on the road, my kids need me here. this freeking sucks. oh, and not to mention having to be on pain medication the rest of my life.

I know


Sorry
It just sucks!!! And I cant seem to overcome it, Not to mention my son, has turned out to be just like his mother, Satans little spawn. And knowing what I am going to have to do with him, just tears me up. He is the most spoiled, lying, manipulating, child I have ever seen. So I am thinking of putting him in boys ranch, just so he would know what real life is, and maybe they can teach him something that could change him. It is that or I will have to move so he won't have so much contact with his mother and her demonic famly. That think the world revolves around them, and there the only one's that have ever been in Vietnam. They have brain washed this child into a world of D&D, and manipulation of the most evilest kind.
I know it will take a long time to get 11 years of hell out of this child, and this is not including the abuse he and his sister have been through. Luckly, I think I got her befor she came about her own personality, but the damage is still there. She just thinks better than he does.

Sorry again.

[RockyMtnProDriver]

Predestination=no free will. Since we have free will then there can be no predestination.

I guess this means God has no power and is hoping things will work out?

Are you assuming that God cares?

I find it interesting that some tend to think God has emotions like we do.