[GMAN]

There should be more flexibility in the hos. Better yet, get rid of the hos and logs.

[Ckrobin]

Doesn't matter what they do to hos till they start making dispatchers and shippers/receivers accountable for violations


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[golfhobo]

Originally Posted by One

What are the legalities around driving over hours to get to a 'safe harbor'? How is that defined? I have always just done what i wanted to, then made it right in the log like going across town to the truck stop after unloading and showing myself not having moved in the same town. Can getting to the truck stop be defined as personal driving time?

Ckrobin said:

Safe harbor only applies to unexpected adverse conditions. I.E. weather or traffic accident. And even then it only extends your driving time if you could not have stopped somewhere after encountering the adverse condition.
Off duty personal conveyance I think only applies to bobtail. And even then you must return to the location you started your personal conveyance. The bobtail part I am not positive about but the rest is accurate according to what I learned listening to a Road Dog (XM Radio) show on the subject that included some lawyers talking on both of these subjects.

"Safe Harbor" is not a term used in the regulations, but.... adverse driving condition allows you to extend your driving time (in conditions that he mentioned) ONLY to the nearest place to safely pull off the road. And THEN... only if it does not exceed your 14 hour clock (and could have been reached during your 11 hour driving time.)

As for going across town to a truck stop after UNLOADING? Absolutely. You don't have to be bobtail. Even pulling an empty trailer.... IF you are not under dispatch... ergo... "unladen," you can drive as much as you want whether your 14 hour clock is up or not. This is why NO driver should have to park outside of a delivery IF he is empty... just because he thinks he is out of hours. [Running out of hours after a LOADING is a different story.] If using Elogs, just set your status to Off Duty Driving.

Now.... from the truckstop, you cannot drive unladen if you are on your way to a "pick-up" as you are considered "under dispatch" unless your hours have been reset.

If I am wrong, I'm sure Fozzy will correct me, but.... I have researched these regs thoroughly.

[Ckrobin]

Originally Posted by golfhobo

Ckrobin said:

As for going across town to a truck stop after UNLOADING? Absolutely. You don't have to be bobtail. Even pulling an empty trailer.... IF you are not under dispatch... ergo... "unladen," you can drive as much as you want whether your 14 hour clock is up or not. This is why NO driver should have to park outside of a delivery IF he is empty... just because he thinks he is out of hours. [Running out of hours after a LOADING is a different story.] If using Elogs, just set your status to Off Duty Driving.

Now.... from the truckstop, you cannot drive unladen if you are on your way to a "pick-up" as you are considered "under dispatch" unless your hours have been reset.

.

The guys on the Road Dog show said this topic was poorly covered in the rule book. This leaves the subject open to many interpretations. This means that ultimately it doesn't matter what yours, your lawyers or my interpretation of the law is. It comes down to the DOT with the ticket books interpretation. Sure you might be able to fight it in court, probably at a higher expense that the citation. Because of this they recommended only using it if you are returning to the place you went off duty. Or maybe if you are going somewhere out of the way of your next dispatch as there is no real way to prove (at least to that ticketing DOT) if you are under dispatch or not.

[repete]

Originally Posted by Ckrobin

Doesn't matter what they do to hos till they start making dispatchers and shippers/receivers accountable for violations


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Your the one with the key in hand not anyone else, learn to say NO!

[golfhobo]

Originally Posted by Ckrobin

The guys on the Road Dog show said this topic was poorly covered in the rule book. This leaves the subject open to many interpretations. This means that ultimately it doesn't matter what yours, your lawyers or my interpretation of the law is. It comes down to the DOT with the ticket books interpretation. Sure you might be able to fight it in court, probably at a higher expense that the citation. Because of this they recommended only using it if you are returning to the place you went off duty. Or maybe if you are going somewhere out of the way of your next dispatch as there is no real way to prove (at least to that ticketing DOT) if you are under dispatch or not.

I never listen to Road Dog type shows. I used to argue the regs with Rev Vassago here on CAD. Boy... those were some good times. Point is... I researched the regs back to front and front to back. Read ALL of the "interpretations," and even checked the FAQ's on each ruling. I don't have time to do it all over again for you... tonight. But, I will if I must. The FAQ's (produced by the FMCSA) made it crystal clear that being "unladen" meant NOT being under dispatch (and or not having a LOAD.) They also made it clear that it didn't matter if you had a trailer or not... IF you were unloaded and NOT under dispatch to your next pick up, you were "unladen." You understand the term "Bill of Lading?" Same root word.

This is how drivers go HOME for their resets. Many of them drag empty trailers with them. WHY would ANYONE return to their last delivery where they went off duty? BTW... you might also want to argue with me that you are allowed to stop and buy a case of BEER on your way home (as long as you don't open one,) because the CMV is not "in operation in interstate commerce" at that time. [Unless your company prohibits it.]

I suppose the officer might not believe you when you say you have no bill of lading (which is required if IN OPERATION,) but you could call your dispatcher and have him tell him so. You could also have him look inside your EMPTY trailer. If you use Elogs, simply select "Off Duty Driving." There is no time limit on this status. If you use paper logs, log it the same way. You sign to attest to the validity of your logs. If they want to question it in court... they will lose.

I pull doubles for Fedex Ground. Sometimes... they send us between terminals with empty trailers, but we are still under dispatch. So... that doesn't count as off duty driving. You see the difference? When a dispatcher tells you your delivery is complete and you should go "hang out" until he has another load for you... you are OFF duty... UNLADEN... and not subject to the HOS.

I agree that MANY of the regs are poorly stated or worded and leave some room for interpretation. But, this one is quite clearly defined and even specifically clarified as to the question of bobtail or empty trailer. Have YOU read the regs on this? The "adverse condition" one is a bit more blurry. Check the FMCSA reg site and get back to me if you are still confused.

[Ckrobin]

My point has nothing to do with what the reg said on the subject. Rather what the guy with the ticket book thinks it said. When I hear a lawyer say they have seen many drivers sited for a violation on this rule I am going to listen to that not argue about what the reg does or does not say.
Bottom line. Use of this rule in any manner that gets you closer to your next load is risking getting a ticket. If you have no objection wasting your time and money fighting tickets you should not have received then use this rule freely. If you want to save your money and time this may be a rule to avoid under some circumstances.



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[Ckrobin]

Originally Posted by repete

Your the one with the key in hand not anyone else, learn to say NO!

This is true. I just did this two weeks ago. I haven't gotten a decent load since. I'm now looking for another company. I told them before they hired me I don't run outlaw.

Problem is, there are too many who will take the load or even ask for that type of load. They will forget about me the day I leave and my Saying no did nothing but cost me money in all reality. I will still say no next time and to the next company.

I stick to my original statement. Nothing will change till they put the blame on those pushing.

[golfhobo]

Originally Posted by Ckrobin

My point has nothing to do with what the reg said on the subject. Rather what the guy with the ticket book thinks it said. When I hear a lawyer say they have seen many drivers sited for a violation on this rule I am going to listen to that not argue about what the reg does or does not say.
Bottom line. Use of this rule in any manner that gets you closer to your next load is risking getting a ticket. If you have no objection wasting your time and money fighting tickets you should not have received then use this rule freely. If you want to save your money and time this may be a rule to avoid under some circumstances.



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You make a valid point or two. But, I am late for a bonfire. Stick around for a day or two and we'll discuss it further.

[One]

Originally Posted by GMAN

There should be more flexibility in the hos. Better yet, get rid of the hos and logs.

A libertarian utopia... Make workers compete against eachother for lower wages and longer working hours.. that's not what we are looking for. Regulations can Help us drivers as well as hurt us, your just have to work the system. If it was legal to be on duty longer, companies would expect you to do it. 70/wk is plenty and 10h driving is too.. wait it is 11h now.